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Line-up changes

Started by slapshot, October 09, 2011, 06:44:49 PM

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Sarge

Quote from: Corn Flake on November 08, 2011, 02:33:51 PM

But what constitutes a home run in UFA signings these days? Has there been one recently? There are far far more strikeouts than home runs for sure.

MacArthur might be the closest thing to one.

I know... I just find it difficult to identify Burke's record as far as FAs go as a "strength" during his tenure here so far though... Know what I mean? 

RedLeaf

#451
Quote from: cw on November 08, 2011, 02:18:51 PM
Quote from: lc9 on November 08, 2011, 01:53:02 PM
Quote from: Busta Reims
Except, that's not true - the Leafs had an extra centre playing on the wing in Lombardi. Heck, they still have an extra centre playing on the wing in Dupuis.

Do either of those two strike you as towering centers?  Colborne is big and skilled, he could create some room for Kessel while Connolly is down. 

Why bring up Frattin to watch him not score?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OJ9H9qBFFM

As I mentioned before, he might have been snake bit with all the posts he hit. He scored two for the Marlies in three games. To score 36 goals in the NCAA last year is not an indication he cannot score.

It's kind of odd to me. The Leafs are building with a young group. And with that, it seems we expect some of them to be 20 goal/year scorers in their first few weeks at the pro level.

I'd preach a little patience with this guy. He looks decent to me in that his two way game is darn good for so few games in the pros and he is getting chances.

We heard this about Grabbo's line some earlier this year. Then Grabbo started to contribute. Then it was MacArthur. In the Boston game, Kulemin had a number of chances. Sorry they didn't all go in but when a guy continually gets chances, as Frattin has, often, their scoring eventually comes around.

I'm not ready to bury the guy after 11 NHL games. And in my opinion, he's a more complete and better hockey player than Joe Colborne is right now.

Like we've seen time and time again with goal scorers; to shake a slump, or in this case to kick start an NHL goal scoring career, it usually only takes one goal to get the mojo working. Then the confidence flares and he'll start contributing points/goals on a regular basis. I believe that to be the case with Frattin. I'd like to see it happen sooner rather than later, but it will come.
"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom.." --Isaac Asimov.

bustaheims

#452
Quote from: lc9 on November 08, 2011, 01:53:02 PM
Do either of those two strike you as towering centers?  Colborne is big and skilled, he could create some room for Kessel while Connolly is down. 

Why bring up Frattin to watch him not score?

Is Connolly a towering centre? I mean, I really don't see size being all that relevant here. The team decided, for a number of reasons, that Frattin is the better choice for a short-term call up than Colborne, and part of that reasoning is that they already have the appropriate replacement on the roster. Bringing up Colborne isn't going to change that and he wasn't about to be slotted onto the first line either. I'm not sure what bringing him up for 2 weeks to, in all likelihood, get 4th line ice time is going to accomplish. Frattin, on the other hand, slots in nicely on the wing for the 3rd line, because the team has already seen him perform adequately in that role.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

cw

Quote from: Corn Flake on November 08, 2011, 02:33:51 PM
But what constitutes a home run in UFA signings these days? Has there been one recently? There are far far more strikeouts than home runs for sure.

MacArthur might be the closest thing to one.

Before the lockout, UFA age was 31 (in the vast majority of cases). They'd sign those guys for 4-5 years and they would often tail off by year two.

With the 27 yr age for UFAs, I don't think there are as many bad deals.

In a lot of UFA cases, the guy gets premium dollars for a peak performance. But most of them cannot sustain that peak level. Because they get so much dough, it's harder for many of them to ever become "home runs". Most of them that do ok have merely done well enough to not be seen as a rip off.

The majority of "home runs" are probably guys like MacArthur or Vokoun/Prospal (maybe this season) where a team got them for a low price/short term and they deliver close to their peak performance.

When the UFA market has been as barren as it has the last couple of summers, it's really hard to find a great top 6 signing of an elite player for any team because so few have been available.

Connolly was an obvious risk. Burke had money to burn with ample cap space and aside from the Richards sweepstakes, there were no decent top 6 centers to be had. To me, the deal was almost one Burke couldn't lose even if Connolly is injured a lot because MLSE aren't going to suffer terribly financially like a small market team. If Connolly goes on LTIR, it's just money lost - it really doesn't even cost them much in cap space.

Until the summer of 2013, I'm not sure there's a lot that's very exicting on the UFA market. But like the lottery, if you don't play, you can't win. In a no-lose situation, you might as well play.

Corn Flake

Quote from: cw on November 08, 2011, 02:48:41 PM
Quote from: Corn Flake on November 08, 2011, 02:33:51 PM
But what constitutes a home run in UFA signings these days? Has there been one recently? There are far far more strikeouts than home runs for sure.

MacArthur might be the closest thing to one.

Before the lockout, UFA age was 31 (in the vast majority of cases). They'd sign those guys for 4-5 years and they would often tail off by year two.

With the 27 yr age for UFAs, I don't think there are as many bad deals.

In a lot of UFA cases, the guy gets premium dollars for a peak performance. But most of them cannot sustain that peak level. Because they get so much dough, it's harder for many of them to ever become "home runs". Most of them that do ok have merely done well enough to not be seen as a rip off.

The majority of "home runs" are probably guys like MacArthur or Vokoun/Prospal (maybe this season) where a team got them for a low price/short term and they deliver close to their peak performance.

When the UFA market has been as barren as it has the last couple of summers, it's really hard to find a great top 6 signing of an elite player for any team because so few have been available.

Connolly was an obvious risk. Burke had money to burn with ample cap space and aside from the Richards sweepstakes, there were no decent top 6 centers to be had. To me, the deal was almost one Burke couldn't lose even if Connolly is injured a lot because MLSE aren't going to suffer terribly financially like a small market team. If Connolly goes on LTIR, it's just money lost - it really doesn't even cost them much in cap space.

Until the summer of 2013, I'm not sure there's a lot that's very exicting on the UFA market. But like the lottery, if you don't play, you can't win. In a no-lose situation, you might as well play.

That's basically how I look at the other UFAs they signed.. its only cash/cap and they weren't preventing Burke from taking on better options.  Not much to lose and if they become a player or an asset, its a good thing.

When its suggested that the Leafs list of UFA's is kind of "meh", I think relative to the other options its actually half decent-to-good. 

I think Mac is a home run as best you are going to get on the FA market now.

I think Beauch became a home run given what he was traded for.  Burke turned nothing into a 1st line winger and an elite prospect. 

I wasn't happy about Connolly but I got the logic, and also liked the idea they weren't going to try and parachute Colborne or Kadri into that role.  Like you said, its a shorter term deal and only cash, its not the end of the world.  Not for the Leafs anyway.  I do think he is a pawn in a major trade if a player like Staal does come available.  I know its far fetched at this point, but so was Phaneuf before it happened.

Sarge

See, I don't view Connolly as much of "chip" on the trade front.  I understand why/how the Leafs came to sign him (though I didn't like it) but what is the value to Connolly to most other teams? I just don't think his history and contract would be all that enticing to other teams unless they need his hit on their books.

cw

Quote from: Corn Flake on November 08, 2011, 03:07:13 PM
Quote from: cw on November 08, 2011, 02:48:41 PM
Quote from: Corn Flake on November 08, 2011, 02:33:51 PM
But what constitutes a home run in UFA signings these days? Has there been one recently? There are far far more strikeouts than home runs for sure.

MacArthur might be the closest thing to one.

Before the lockout, UFA age was 31 (in the vast majority of cases). They'd sign those guys for 4-5 years and they would often tail off by year two.

With the 27 yr age for UFAs, I don't think there are as many bad deals.

In a lot of UFA cases, the guy gets premium dollars for a peak performance. But most of them cannot sustain that peak level. Because they get so much dough, it's harder for many of them to ever become "home runs". Most of them that do ok have merely done well enough to not be seen as a rip off.

The majority of "home runs" are probably guys like MacArthur or Vokoun/Prospal (maybe this season) where a team got them for a low price/short term and they deliver close to their peak performance.

When the UFA market has been as barren as it has the last couple of summers, it's really hard to find a great top 6 signing of an elite player for any team because so few have been available.

Connolly was an obvious risk. Burke had money to burn with ample cap space and aside from the Richards sweepstakes, there were no decent top 6 centers to be had. To me, the deal was almost one Burke couldn't lose even if Connolly is injured a lot because MLSE aren't going to suffer terribly financially like a small market team. If Connolly goes on LTIR, it's just money lost - it really doesn't even cost them much in cap space.

Until the summer of 2013, I'm not sure there's a lot that's very exicting on the UFA market. But like the lottery, if you don't play, you can't win. In a no-lose situation, you might as well play.

That's basically how I look at the other UFAs they signed.. its only cash/cap and they weren't preventing Burke from taking on better options.  Not much to lose and if they become a player or an asset, its a good thing.

When its suggested that the Leafs list of UFA's is kind of "meh", I think relative to the other options its actually half decent-to-good. 

I think Mac is a home run as best you are going to get on the FA market now.

I think Beauch became a home run given what he was traded for.  Burke turned nothing into a 1st line winger and an elite prospect. 

I wasn't happy about Connolly but I got the logic, and also liked the idea they weren't going to try and parachute Colborne or Kadri into that role.  Like you said, its a shorter term deal and only cash, its not the end of the world.  Not for the Leafs anyway.  I do think he is a pawn in a major trade if a player like Staal does come available.  I know its far fetched at this point, but so was Phaneuf before it happened.

I'm about there as well. If Joe Colborne pushes Connolly off the roster sometime next year, Connolly might be flipped for something - just for an example. Maybe sounding a little heartless, these UFAs are zero-talent cost  assets that might return young talent as they roll the roster over into a winner.

Some of them will finish their contract and leave for nothing but all they cost is money which in MLSE's grand billion dollar plus scheme of things is close to budgeted peanuts as money they were spending one way or the other.

This is the time to do it because as they get closer to contending, it's much tougher to let go of players and improve the roster.

Corn Flake

Quote from: Floyd on November 08, 2011, 03:12:21 PM
See, I don't view Connolly as much of "chip" on the trade front.  I understand why/how the Leafs came to sign him (though I didn't like it) but what is the value to Connolly to most other teams? I just don't think his history and contract would be all that enticing to other teams unless they need his hit on their books.

It depends what they are trading to the Leafs.  Given how many teams had to spend to get to the floor this year, a shorter term semi-inflated contract is kind of a good thing.   

This is all completely hypothetical, but say for example this Eric Staal stuff is legit... he makes $8.4 mil... the Canes are about $1 mil above the cap floor so they can't just take prospects and picks if they decide to trade him - they have to take players - and a Connolly eats up half that money on a short term basis but also fills a chunk of the void left on the ice. Yeah he's an injury problem but if he wasn't he probably is a legit #1 centre.

cw

Quote from: Floyd on November 08, 2011, 03:12:21 PM
See, I don't view Connolly as much of "chip" on the trade front.  I understand why/how the Leafs came to sign him (though I didn't like it) but what is the value to Connolly to most other teams? I just don't think his history and contract would be all that enticing to other teams unless they need his hit on their books.

I think by the deadline next year, he might get something respectable when most of his contract will have been paid - IF (big IF), they have the center depth that they could afford to part with him and he can return a needed talent in exchange. I presume they'll be a step closer to contending next season ....

Potvin29

#459
Quote from: lc9 on November 08, 2011, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: Potvin29 on November 07, 2011, 06:39:42 PM
I'd rather let Colborne continue to be hot down in the AHL and put up big numbers than to come up here and possibly struggle.

Couldn't disagree more.  I would rather the player come up here and struggle than be pissed off for being overlooked on the call-up.  No reason he shouldn't be up, he is a center, and we need a center.

Oh is he pissed off?  I did not realize that.  Next time you talk to him, tell him I'm rooting for him.

Or he could take a mature view of the situation, and has probably been spoken to by both the Dallas Eakins and Brian Burke about what the situation is.

I would not rather him come up and possibly struggle and then go back down and not have the same impact he was having.  He's younger than Frattin, they've seen Frattin for longer at the NHL level, so I have no problem whatsoever with letting Colborne see more ice and produce at the professional level in the AHL.

EDIT: This is my opinion in the event there was no injury, by the way.

Michael

What, if anything, does it mean when we talk about Colbourne, Frattin etc. and not one mention is made of Kadri? What does the future hold for him?

Potvin29

Quote from: Fanatic on November 08, 2011, 06:52:12 PM
What, if anything, does it mean when we talk about Colbourne, Frattin etc. and not one mention is made of Kadri? What does the future hold for him?

Not much considering he has played more NHL games than both of them combined thus far and is 2 years younger than Frattin and the same age as Colborne.  Both of those guys could just as easily be in the same position Kadri is in a year.

All it means is Kadri needs to find some consistency and find that next gear in the NHL.  Hopefully he does.

Newbury

Quote from: Fanatic on November 08, 2011, 06:52:12 PM
What, if anything, does it mean when we talk about Colbourne, Frattin etc. and not one mention is made of Kadri? What does the future hold for him?

Bus rides. Lots of 'em.

That, or playing for Carolina or Calgary.

Michael


Sarge

jonasTSN1050 Jonas Siegel
One change to Leaf lines at practice: Steckel flips to 3rd line centre with Lombardi and Frattin. Crabb drops to 4th with Dupuis and Brown.
1 minute ago

Not sure the is the big change we need but whatever...