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Offline cw

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2011, 10:58:34 AM »
Red Fisher turned 85 last August. I was reading one of his recent articles the other day. He didn't write puff pieces. In fact, he just criticized the Montreal GM for the Markov contract. Unlike Strachan, he's still employed.

I think Red found a way to go about his business throughout his career without getting into the garbage Simmons & Cox have. For one, I've found his articles to be more reliable, factually correct and/or accurate. For another, he actually seems to put more effort and quality thought into what he has to say. Thirdly, I can't recall Fisher making himself a key part of the story like so many in the media seem to do today through some inflated sense of self importance. I can't recall Red ever writing something just to get a rise out of people - trolling for attention so he could feel as if he'd done his job because that's shoddy crap. I also don't recall him calling his readers sycophants, sheep, etc.

We could talk for hours about how the changing nature of the news business has fundamentally altered the way a sportswriter goes about their job and, as a general, I don't think there's much room for debate. The need for immediacy and eyeballs has generated a lot of laziness and sensationalism. I can't argue that.

But the reality of the modern day media landscape is that a beat writer, which I'm assuming is a job title that doesn't really apply to Cox, Simmons or Fisher, does have a responsibility to find those scoops and drive those numbers. That is their job. I'm not advocating for it necessarily, I was fine in a world with newspapers and not twitter, but I can only King Canute that for so long.

A guy I complimented prior to the Boston starter incident, Jonas Siegel, is a beat writer/reporter. If you look at his coverage of that story, it's pretty much bang on. No one took issue with him. He didn't get into all kinds of acrimony with Wilson either. He was smart enough to sniff the possibility out before it happened through the subtleties of what Wilson said and then report on it.

Siegel, in this 24/7 news environment, had just as much time or less as the others as he had to go on the air that afternoon/early evening. He got it right. Traikos of the National Post also got it right. So it wasn't a fluke or anything impossible. Both men, with the same opportunity as all the others, listened carefully, thought it through and then did their jobs.

And the rest who weren't up to that - including some who don't appear to attend these scrums and probably weren't there - cry foul making accusations of lying when if they'd done their jobs and listened closely & carefully and thought it through like Siegel & Traikos did, they would have got the real story right without silly acrimony.

And that isn't an exception. It's just another example. It's been a pattern with a number of these lazy or incompetent clowns for years in this town.

Offline cw

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2011, 11:00:22 AM »
If anyone has any doubts about the Simmons article, look at the comments underneath
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/05/burkes-becoming-an-embarrassment

It's a landslide of criticism of the author and in part, the paper. There is a concept out there even in the media business world about "bad public relations". Even newspapers don't want a lot of attention for being a lousy product. Short term, they may sell a bunch. Long term, it gets ugly.

Simmons actually claimed on 1050 that two-thirds of the responses he's heard from readers were supportive of him and his article.  Yep, two-thirds.

Yes but lying is ok with him.  :( ::)

"In fairness to Wilson, he did what most coaches do: He lied a little. So what? Everybody does it in sports. Itís part of the foolish game. " Simmons
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 11:06:11 AM by cw »

Offline L K

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2011, 11:01:35 AM »
If anyone has any doubts about the Simmons article, look at the comments underneath
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/05/burkes-becoming-an-embarrassment

It's a landslide of criticism of the author and in part, the paper. There is a concept out there even in the media business world about "bad public relations". Even newspapers don't want a lot of attention for being a lousy product. Short term, they may sell a bunch. Long term, it gets ugly.

Simmons actually claimed on 1050 that two-thirds of the responses he's heard from readers were supportive of him and his article.  Yep, two-thirds.

Ah, the Rob Ford tactic.  It's always the "majority" that is silent...as long as your viewpoint is shared by said majority.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2011, 11:07:04 AM »
And the rest who weren't up to that - including some who don't appear to attend these scrums and probably weren't there - cry foul making accusations of lying when if they'd done their jobs and listened closely & carefully and thought it through like Siegel & Traikos did, they would have got the real story right without silly acrimony.

And that isn't an exception. It's just another example. It's been a pattern with a number of these lazy or incompetent clowns for years in this town.

I'm not arguing for Simmons or Cox here. I think they're wrong. I was commenting on the reality of what the media's role is here and what a beat writer has to do.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Zee

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2011, 11:09:21 AM »
If anyone has any doubts about the Simmons article, look at the comments underneath
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/05/burkes-becoming-an-embarrassment

It's a landslide of criticism of the author and in part, the paper. There is a concept out there even in the media business world about "bad public relations". Even newspapers don't want a lot of attention for being a lousy product. Short term, they may sell a bunch. Long term, it gets ugly.

Simmons actually claimed on 1050 that two-thirds of the responses he's heard from readers were supportive of him and his article.  Yep, two-thirds.

Yes but lying is ok with him.  :( ::)

"In fairness to Wilson, he did what most coaches do: He lied a little. So what? Everybody does it in sports. Itís part of the foolish game. " Simmons

A buddy of mine in Edmonton texts me last night and says "WTF, how is this reporters / Leafs thing headline news out here??"

I was laughing, they're even hearing about it out west.

Offline Bullfrog

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2011, 11:17:21 AM »
I love Burke's reply to the question of whether he's considering an extension for Wilson.  "None of your business."

Well, except that it is a sports journalist's business.  Sometimes I wish Larry Brooks was on the Leafs beat.  He's not a great writer but he's not intimidated by blowhards either.

Honestly, I'd be more interested in a story by a reporter that proposes whether Burke should consider an extension with a sound reasoning for why. You know, something with some critical thought behind it.

Offline cw

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2011, 11:20:06 AM »
If anyone has any doubts about the Simmons article, look at the comments underneath
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/05/burkes-becoming-an-embarrassment

It's a landslide of criticism of the author and in part, the paper. There is a concept out there even in the media business world about "bad public relations". Even newspapers don't want a lot of attention for being a lousy product. Short term, they may sell a bunch. Long term, it gets ugly.

Simmons actually claimed on 1050 that two-thirds of the responses he's heard from readers were supportive of him and his article.  Yep, two-thirds.

Yes but lying is ok with him.  :( ::)

"In fairness to Wilson, he did what most coaches do: He lied a little. So what? Everybody does it in sports. Itís part of the foolish game. " Simmons

A buddy of mine in Edmonton texts me last night and says "WTF, how is this reporters / Leafs thing headline news out here??"

I was laughing, they're even hearing about it out west.

One of the Vancouver papers I saw weighed in on it.

With the gloves off and after suffering some professional embarrassment for the dispute, with no relationship between themselves and the Leafs GM & coach, Cox & Simmons will be gunning for Wilson & Burke from here on out at every opportunity. Just like they did when Quinn cut them off.

Both of them suffered for that. Cox got let go from the FAN590 and had to change his ways.  It's not a fight they can really win for their papers long term - particularly with the club on the upswing.

Offline Bonsixx

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2011, 11:34:46 AM »
If anyone has any doubts about the Simmons article, look at the comments underneath
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/05/burkes-becoming-an-embarrassment

It's a landslide of criticism of the author and in part, the paper. There is a concept out there even in the media business world about "bad public relations". Even newspapers don't want a lot of attention for being a lousy product. Short term, they may sell a bunch. Long term, it gets ugly.

Simmons actually claimed on 1050 that two-thirds of the responses he's heard from readers were supportive of him and his article.  Yep, two-thirds.

Yes but lying is ok with him.  :( ::)

"In fairness to Wilson, he did what most coaches do: He lied a little. So what? Everybody does it in sports. Itís part of the foolish game. " Simmons

A buddy of mine in Edmonton texts me last night and says "WTF, how is this reporters / Leafs thing headline news out here??"

I was laughing, they're even hearing about it out west.

One of the Vancouver papers I saw weighed in on it.

With the gloves off and after suffering some professional embarrassment for the dispute, with no relationship between themselves and the Leafs GM & coach, Cox & Simmons will be gunning for Wilson & Burke from here on out at every opportunity. Just like they did when Quinn cut them off.

Both of them suffered for that. Cox got let go from the FAN590 and had to change his ways.  It's not a fight they can really win for their papers long term - particularly with the club on the upswing.

Outside of turning every second incident into an anti-fighting stance, Cox has generally been fairly objective and mostly non-annoying over the last year or two. I have no idea about Simmons however, the guy is a clownshoe.

Offline L K

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2011, 11:36:37 AM »
If anyone has any doubts about the Simmons article, look at the comments underneath
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/05/burkes-becoming-an-embarrassment

It's a landslide of criticism of the author and in part, the paper. There is a concept out there even in the media business world about "bad public relations". Even newspapers don't want a lot of attention for being a lousy product. Short term, they may sell a bunch. Long term, it gets ugly.

Simmons actually claimed on 1050 that two-thirds of the responses he's heard from readers were supportive of him and his article.  Yep, two-thirds.

Yes but lying is ok with him.  :( ::)

"In fairness to Wilson, he did what most coaches do: He lied a little. So what? Everybody does it in sports. Itís part of the foolish game. " Simmons

A buddy of mine in Edmonton texts me last night and says "WTF, how is this reporters / Leafs thing headline news out here??"

I was laughing, they're even hearing about it out west.

One of the Vancouver papers I saw weighed in on it.

With the gloves off and after suffering some professional embarrassment for the dispute, with no relationship between themselves and the Leafs GM & coach, Cox & Simmons will be gunning for Wilson & Burke from here on out at every opportunity. Just like they did when Quinn cut them off.

Both of them suffered for that. Cox got let go from the FAN590 and had to change his ways.  It's not a fight they can really win for their papers long term - particularly with the club on the upswing.

That's what I have a hard time understanding.  These are the same idiots who tried to pick fights with Quinn...its the same guys that had Joe Nieuwendyk banning Toronto papers from the dressing room and being quite surprised about how/what they wrote about the players/team/coaches/GM/etc. 

It's not like this is a new thing for Cox/Simmons to call Leafs fans stupid, accuse the organization of lying and being "against the media". 

No sympathy for them whatsoever.  The ironic thing is the number of "stories" they have about the Leafs will probably swell as their access to the team is cut off...because of all of their "unnamed sources" which is essentially writer lingo for "I get to make stuff up"

Offline freer

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2011, 11:43:26 AM »
Both the papers suck there, and both the reference reporters suck. it has been the same for 20 plus years in TO. it is never going to change. They both may get fired, but there will always be someone worse then them to replace them. It is the crappy circle that is reporters in TO

Offline cw

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2011, 11:47:16 AM »
Outside of turning every second incident into an anti-fighting stance, Cox has generally been fairly objective and mostly non-annoying over the last year or two.

I agree.

I'd also say that Cox's ability to express himself is well above average. Ignoring the quality of his research or opinion, he's a good writer - better than most sports writers.

But I strongly suspect that the change in his tone came from a change in Leafs management and coaches he was dealing with and more importantly, a change in what he had to do to survive.

FAN590 cutting him loose had to sting. And a lot of folks had the sort of comments for him that the Simmons article linked above experienced. It couldn't continue because he was getting tuned out.

Leafs fans, like the fans of any team, are going to have some bias and hope for the best. A few might enjoy seeing the team endlessly bashed but the majority won't. It wears thin.

So to his credit, the tone of what he published improved for his survival. From that, he got his FAN590 gig back. But when I review his twitter feed, the core of the guy is basically unchanged.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 11:48:56 AM by cw »

Online Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2011, 01:04:35 PM »
Outside of turning every second incident into an anti-fighting stance, Cox has generally been fairly objective and mostly non-annoying over the last year or two.

I agree.

I'd also say that Cox's ability to express himself is well above average. Ignoring the quality of his research or opinion, he's a good writer - better than most sports writers.

But I strongly suspect that the change in his tone came from a change in Leafs management and coaches he was dealing with and more importantly, a change in what he had to do to survive.

FAN590 cutting him loose had to sting. And a lot of folks had the sort of comments for him that the Simmons article linked above experienced. It couldn't continue because he was getting tuned out.

Leafs fans, like the fans of any team, are going to have some bias and hope for the best. A few might enjoy seeing the team endlessly bashed but the majority won't. It wears thin.

So to his credit, the tone of what he published improved for his survival. From that, he got his FAN590 gig back. But when I review his twitter feed, the core of the guy is basically unchanged.

I agree completely.  Cox is a writer of considerable talent but his ego is even bigger and that is his Achilles' Heel.

Offline cw

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2011, 01:09:16 PM »
Here's the article by Simmons that triggered Burke cutting him off
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/01/burke-off-to-afghanistan
You canít be both busy and absent when youíre another world apart. There isnít regular cell phone coverage in Kandahar. The communication isnít that easy.

Here's some of Burke's response to that:
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/07/04/burke-deeply-offended-by-columnist/
ďThe night before the trade deadline, I made sure we had Skype contact so that I could talk to any free agents we needed to talk to,Ē Burke said. ďMy cell worked great on the base. We had a backup landline.Ē

Most of the UFAs do not reside in Toronto so it shouldn't matter where one calls from.

Obviously, Simmons presumed poor communications and never checked with the Leafs on them or Burke's schedule - that he wasn't posing for pics when free agency was going down - he was on the phone a bunch of the time.

Simmons got caught inaccurately filling in some blanks and Burke held him accountable.

Offline Zee

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2011, 01:54:06 PM »
Here's the article by Simmons that triggered Burke cutting him off
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/01/burke-off-to-afghanistan
You canít be both busy and absent when youíre another world apart. There isnít regular cell phone coverage in Kandahar. The communication isnít that easy.

Here's some of Burke's response to that:
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/07/04/burke-deeply-offended-by-columnist/
ďThe night before the trade deadline, I made sure we had Skype contact so that I could talk to any free agents we needed to talk to,Ē Burke said. ďMy cell worked great on the base. We had a backup landline.Ē

Most of the UFAs do not reside in Toronto so it shouldn't matter where one calls from.

Obviously, Simmons presumed poor communications and never checked with the Leafs on them or Burke's schedule - that he wasn't posing for pics when free agency was going down - he was on the phone a bunch of the time.

Simmons got caught inaccurately filling in some blanks and Burke held him accountable.

I forgot about that article, I now remember how ridiculous it was.  He even mentioned it on his Sunday morning show "The Reporters with Dave Hodge" and I can't recall other guys backing him up on it.  Oh Steve, stirring the pot and you got your hand burned..tsk tsk.

Offline Tigger

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2011, 02:26:39 PM »
That tricky Burke, wasn't he out of the country back on July1 '09 too? Wonder how he dealt with it then...

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Re: Media Thread
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2011, 02:26:39 PM »