Author Topic: Hunter Will Not Return Either  (Read 1637 times)

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Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: Hunter Will Not Return Either
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2018, 11:05:42 PM »
Hmmm.  This kind of smacks of revisionism to me.  Wasn't Hunter regarded as one of the best talent scouts in the biz?

What part is "revisionism"? You're more than welcome to look back at my posts from the 2016 draft and find that I critiqued Hunter about them just as much as I am now. Fact is at this point in time, looking at the Leafs drafts while Hunter was in charge, they don't stand out as being anywhere even close to elite.

I'm not bringing Hunter's work as a London Knight into this, as that can be construed a number of different ways (yes he built London into a powerhouse, but they also ended up having a crazy advantage over every other OHL team that helped them). His draft selections with the Leafs are average at best at this moment.

What I meant by "revisionism" is that there seems to be a tendency here, over the years, to downgrade players/personnel if they are traded or otherwise leave the team.  Not you in particular, and it doesn't (usually) rise to the level of badmouthing.  It can be as mild as "we won't miss X that much."

As for his reputation, well, that's exactly what's being debated.

And FWIW I do think you have to include his record with London to fairly evaluate his rep at this point in time.

Incidentally, I'm not implying that Hunter should have been named GM over Dubas.

Offline CarltonTheBear

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Re: Hunter Will Not Return Either
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2018, 08:24:30 AM »
And FWIW I do think you have to include his record with London to fairly evaluate his rep at this point in time.

I just disagree. Being able to hand-pick the best 16-year olds because they refuse to play in Owen Sound or Kingston or because they claim they're going the NCAA route to drop in the draft is a completely different ballgame than selecting kids in the NHL entry draft. I'm not saying that Hunter wasn't successful at the OHL level, but they're just two completely different things. Going back to my Nylander example, that's like justifying me calling him a Hall of Famer because he was a terrific hockey player before joining the NHL too.

And I'm not even necessarily saying that Hunter is a bad scout per se, although I do think the 2016 draft was pretty bad, I'm just saying the media basically said he was the best scout in the business from the second the Leafs hired him and nothing Hunter did was going to change their minds on that. Like Nik said, that's entirely based on reputation not results.

Offline Zee

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Re: Hunter Will Not Return Either
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2018, 08:38:04 AM »
Steve Simmons called Hunter a "Hall of Fame-quality scout" the other day. This is after running three NHL drafts, none of which can even be fully and properly judged. That's like me calling William Nylander a Hall of Fame-quality player right now.

It's almost, almost, like there's a symbiotic relationship between some NHL execs and members of the Press, wherein "insider" information is passed along and in return, they get favourable press.

I know, it's too crazy to even imagine but...what if?

I wonder if Simmons and Hunter go back as buddies?   Seems strange that he'd pump his tires so much despite any real evidence that Hunter is as good as people say he is.  It wouldn't surprise me to find out they have a personal relationship that dates back over the decades.  Sort of like the Darren Dreger/Nonis is my cousin scenario.

Offline L K

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Re: Hunter Will Not Return Either
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2018, 11:15:49 AM »
And FWIW I do think you have to include his record with London to fairly evaluate his rep at this point in time.

I just disagree. Being able to hand-pick the best 16-year olds because they refuse to play in Owen Sound or Kingston or because they claim they're going the NCAA route to drop in the draft is a completely different ballgame than selecting kids in the NHL entry draft. I'm not saying that Hunter wasn't successful at the OHL level, but they're just two completely different things. Going back to my Nylander example, that's like justifying me calling him a Hall of Famer because he was a terrific hockey player before joining the NHL too.

And I'm not even necessarily saying that Hunter is a bad scout per se, although I do think the 2016 draft was pretty bad, I'm just saying the media basically said he was the best scout in the business from the second the Leafs hired him and nothing Hunter did was going to change their minds on that. Like Nik said, that's entirely based on reputation not results.

Dismissing his work in London is unfair but it isn't without some truth.  The Knights have built an organization that is smart with minor hockey.  They bring hockey families and reputation to the table and it grants them players that other organizations don't get the chance to sniff.  It doesn't mean that his work should be dismissed but if the Leafs could tamper with the draft they could do a lot better as well.

Offline Zee

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Re: Hunter Will Not Return Either
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2018, 03:00:04 PM »
And FWIW I do think you have to include his record with London to fairly evaluate his rep at this point in time.

I just disagree. Being able to hand-pick the best 16-year olds because they refuse to play in Owen Sound or Kingston or because they claim they're going the NCAA route to drop in the draft is a completely different ballgame than selecting kids in the NHL entry draft. I'm not saying that Hunter wasn't successful at the OHL level, but they're just two completely different things. Going back to my Nylander example, that's like justifying me calling him a Hall of Famer because he was a terrific hockey player before joining the NHL too.

And I'm not even necessarily saying that Hunter is a bad scout per se, although I do think the 2016 draft was pretty bad, I'm just saying the media basically said he was the best scout in the business from the second the Leafs hired him and nothing Hunter did was going to change their minds on that. Like Nik said, that's entirely based on reputation not results.

Dismissing his work in London is unfair but it isn't without some truth.  The Knights have built an organization that is smart with minor hockey.  They bring hockey families and reputation to the table and it grants them players that other organizations don't get the chance to sniff.  It doesn't mean that his work should be dismissed but if the Leafs could tamper with the draft they could do a lot better as well.

Junior hockey is a whole other beast too.  You don't have salary cap implications, so in building your roster you don't have to worry about value per player, and there's constant turnover in junior since guys can only play up to a certain age.  Also, Mark Hunter wasn't the only person in London running the team, his brother is there as well so who knows which decisions are Mark's and which are someone else. 

But that's all for naught anyway, in terms of the NHL we can look to his work here, and outside of the obvious 1st round picks, there's some head scratchers in there as well.  Did he scout much better than any other NHL scout over the last 3 seasons?  Probably not.

Offline CarltonTheBear

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Re: Hunter Will Not Return Either
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2018, 07:32:34 PM »

Best scout in the business couldn't find another NHL job.

Offline Frycer14

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Re: Hunter Will Not Return Either
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2018, 08:20:56 PM »

Best scout in the business couldn't find another NHL job.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Or a fair comment, frankly.

Offline Zee

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Re: Hunter Will Not Return Either
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2018, 09:24:10 AM »

Best scout in the business couldn't find another NHL job.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Or a fair comment, frankly.
Yeah I'm sure Hunter could have gotten another head scout or even assistant-GM position but he most likely wants to be a GM so why settle for a lesser role in the NHL? He'll have more control in London and someone will come calling in a year or 2

Offline CarltonTheBear

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Re: Hunter Will Not Return Either
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2018, 01:01:42 PM »
I don't think that's necessarily true. Or a fair comment, frankly.
Yeah I'm sure Hunter could have gotten another head scout or even assistant-GM position but he most likely wants to be a GM so why settle for a lesser role in the NHL? He'll have more control in London and someone will come calling in a year or 2

I was being slightly fictitious with my comment, but I do think that if he was as highly thought of as the media made us believe he could have definitely been hired somewhere as an AGM with a close-to-GM salary. Most of them considered him a shoe-in for the GM job with Lou. And if he doesn't want to continue working in an assistant role and would rather just hang around London until someone comes calling with a GM job, then I don't know how much that is going to work out for him. There's still a ton of highly regarded AGM's around the league who bust their butts in that role for years and haven't been able to move up yet. I'd be surprised if he re-surfaced in the NHL now, much like his brother Dale.

Online Highlander

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Re: Hunter Will Not Return Either
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2018, 08:37:05 PM »
I don't think that's necessarily true. Or a fair comment, frankly.
Yeah I'm sure Hunter could have gotten another head scout or even assistant-GM position but he most likely wants to be a GM so why settle for a lesser role in the NHL? He'll have more control in London and someone will come calling in a year or 2

I was being slightly fictitious with my comment, but I do think that if he was as highly thought of as the media made us believe he could have definitely been hired somewhere as an AGM with a close-to-GM salary. Most of them considered him a shoe-in for the GM job with Lou. And if he doesn't want to continue working in an assistant role and would rather just hang around London until someone comes calling with a GM job, then I don't know how much that is going to work out for him. There's still a ton of highly regarded AGM's around the league who bust their butts in that role for years and haven't been able to move up yet. I'd be surprised if he re-surfaced in the NHL now, much like his brother Dale.
Supposedly he has amassed quite a small fortune investing in farmland and is an astute businessman. Not saying he doesn't love hockey but he may want to enjoy his later years and enjoy his life, than be an Empire builder.
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Re: Hunter Will Not Return Either
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2018, 08:37:05 PM »