Author Topic: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition  (Read 4553 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline princedpw

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1744
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2018, 04:40:03 PM »
I'm not so sure about needing Martin. Special teams play such a big role in the playoffs and I think the only thing Martin will do is add to the time spent on the PK. I think Johnsson over him (and Carrick over Polak) and trying to beat the Bruins with speed and skill is the way to go. And I'm still pushing for Nylander to centre and Bozak to the 4th line. I'd love to see this:

Hyman     Matthews    Marner
Johnsson  Nylander     Brown
JVR          Marleau      Kapanen
Komarov   Bozak        Plekanec/Leivo/Martin

       Rielly       Dermott
       Gardiner  Carrick
       Hainsey   Zaitsev

These guys are 20.  They shouldn't get tired.  This would be fun:

Johnsson  Matthews    Hyman  (22 min)
Marleau  Nylander     Marner  (20 min)
JVR          Bozak      Kapanen (15 min)
Leivo   Matthews        Brown (3 min)

       Rielly       Dermott (25)
       Gardiner  Carrick (25)
       Hainsey   Zaitsev (10)

Powerplay:
JVR          Bozak      Marner    Leivo    Reilly (1min30/pp)
Matthews Nylander Johnsson Marleau Gardiner (30/pp)

PK:
It can't be worse than the last game.

 :D :D :D :D




Offline princedpw

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1744
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2018, 04:45:34 PM »
Hi,

I'm a longtime member (since 1999, I think) and I noticed a post in the gameday thread for Game 1 about how it was a pretty slow day for a Leafs playoff game.

I think it's because of those who enjoy advanced stats shouting opinions down with "Corsi, Corsi, Corsi, math, math, math" whenever a new member expresses an opinion. I love the advanced stats and think they have value, but it seems to me that anyone who signs on here to voice their thoughts on the team these days just get mocked and have numbers thrown at their face. It never used to be this way.

This used to be a great community for all Leafs fans, and it seems if you post an opinion now that might go against the advanced stats, it turns hostile.

Anyway, that's my opinion (without "the numbers" to prove it), but for anyone who just wants to vent about the team, and who should or shouldn't play, based on the ol' fashioned eye test, please post here.

No "advanced stats" needed. Is that OK?

And here's the first opinion: I don't care how bad Matt Martin is at hockey, I think they need him on the fourth line against Boston.

Discuss.

Great post and great thread.  Thanks for this.

If we disagree on this site, it would be nice if we could disagree and yet be positive, supportive and friendly towards one another as opposed to hostile.  Point out when someone makes a nice point, even if you don't agree with the entirety of their statement.  We lose contributors to the site when we are unfriendly.  (I am sure I am personally forgetful this golden rule from time to time.  Apologies for when I screw up.)

Offline Chris

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 602
  • TMLfans Rocks!
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2018, 04:55:18 PM »
Nice thread! Can we talk about +/- or is it taboo here too  :)

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) I only got to see bits and pieces of game 1. I'm on the fence concerning the value Martin might add, but he'd probably be more effective than Komarov (except on the PK of course). I thought Matthews looked a bit tentative but again, I only saw part of the game. He needs to be much more assertive and I'd like to see him use his size a bit as well.

Hopefully my internet connection will stay alive long enough to watch the game tonight...here in western NY we are preparing for a potentially very bad ice storm with a lot of wind. Bad combination.

Offline hockeyfan1

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 7356
  • Gender: Female
  • #TorontoStrong
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2018, 05:40:45 PM »
Babs needs to do what Carlyle did in that series back then we he had to find a way to get Kessel loose.  The Leafs had a strategy in place and it worked beautifully.  If Babcock could take a page from there and get the Matthews line away from the Bergeron line, or at least rearrange things, be ecclective, etc., perhaps then the Leafs will have a greater chance of success.

We all know the Leafs' biggest asset is their speed & skill.  This needs to be unleashed.  (It is said that defence wins playoff hockey games.  Not as prevalent anymore, according to stats).

Quote
...Boston Bruins beating the Leafs is by the Leafs beating themselves. Their biggest weapon is their offence, their kids, their creativity. They can score in bushels when they're humming. If Mike Babcock puts them in offensive shackles, what’s left to beat Boston with? Are they going to out-defend one of the league’s stingiest teams despite themselves being downright middling defensively?

Offline Guilt Trip

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 683
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2018, 10:35:13 PM »
Personally if I was to remove a Dman for Carrick, I'd take out Hainsey before Polak. Seems to me that Hainsey is on the ice for every goal and is usually flailing around on the ice when it happens.
That's because Babs plays him too much. Not really Hainsey's fault.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

Well that's sort of true for everyone who plays in situations they shouldn't isn't it...on all teams.
Hainsey's issue is basic stuff.. Covering a man, not giving the uck away when not being pressured. That has nothing to do with being tired. Simple simple stuff

Offline OldTimeHockey

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1898
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2018, 08:25:46 AM »
Personally if I was to remove a Dman for Carrick, I'd take out Hainsey before Polak. Seems to me that Hainsey is on the ice for every goal and is usually flailing around on the ice when it happens.
That's because Babs plays him too much. Not really Hainsey's fault.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

Well that's sort of true for everyone who plays in situations they shouldn't isn't it...on all teams.
Hainsey's issue is basic stuff.. Covering a man, not giving the uck away when not being pressured. That has nothing to do with being tired. Simple simple stuff

Exactly. He's soft on the puck, soft on the man, and just overall a soft player. As he slows, how soft he is becomes more and more evident.

Offline herman

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 11256
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2018, 09:39:25 AM »
I noticed a post in the gameday thread for Game 1 about how it was a pretty slow day for a Leafs playoff game.

I think it's because of those who enjoy advanced stats shouting opinions down with "Corsi, Corsi, Corsi, math, math, math" whenever a new member expresses an opinion. I love the advanced stats and think they have value, but it seems to me that anyone who signs on here to voice their thoughts on the team these days just get mocked and have numbers thrown at their face. It never used to be this way.

This used to be a great community for all Leafs fans, and it seems if you post an opinion now that might go against the advanced stats, it turns hostile.

I'm sorry you feel this way about the site now. I spend a good deal of time here now, without the background of what it was like 'before', and I like it.

I don't find that there is outright hostile shouting down of opinions with analytics; merely a group of people hashing out what might be true from a distance with whatever information they have access to. I have been on the receiving end of data that I had not considered and I appreciate the perspective. I can see why some would chafe at that (it's a natural survival mechanism for humans) and interpret it as hostility. We have a tendency to only take the data that reinforces our already developed opinions (see politics/religion).

If anything, hostility comes up on the defensive side more often than not; for a brief period of time, there was a very vocal pushback calling the 'analytics' crowd bad fans for being pessimists or something like that, and that's unfortunate and also verifiably false. Everyone here is here because they're a fan. We approach the game a bit differently, but at the end of the day we want this team to succeed and that's what we have in common.

So I see your suggestion for icing Matt Martin, and I know you're coming from the perspective of adding that dimension of internally motivated intensity, finishing checks to make the game more of an uphill climb for the Bruins. I agree that dimension is missing from our team. If Komarov was not so slow anymore, we'd have it. I would prefer it come in the form of more minutes for Johnsson, Kapanen. If we can call him up, Carl Grundstrom would also be and interesting add.

Anyway, my main point is, the Marlies in the lineup are the ones that seem to be actually effective, while most of Lou's regular season vets have all seemingly broken down together.

Offline Chris

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 602
  • TMLfans Rocks!
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2018, 10:26:16 AM »

Anyway, my main point is, the Marlies in the lineup are the ones that seem to be actually effective, while most of Lou's regular season vets have all seemingly broken down together.

One thing I can say after watching the first two games...unless things change dramatically, I won't be particularly upset if JVR, Bozak and Komarov all walk for no return during the summer. It was nice to see JVR throwing his weight around a little in the last game, but he's been pretty invisible for the most part. Would be nice to get some kind of draft pick in exchange for his rights if possible. I'm not sold on Marleau for another 2 years either but that's another discussion.

Offline TheMightyOdin

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2018, 06:41:57 PM »
The only thing I’m going to say about stats is that 60% of the time they’re wrong every time.

Go Leafs Go!
The Catalyst?

Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 6856
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2018, 08:07:42 PM »
Leafs Playoff - Ignoramuses who don’t like their misguided opinion challenged edition.

Offline Bonsixx

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1059
  • TMLfans Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2018, 03:25:36 AM »
Leafs Playoff - Ignoramuses who don’t like their misguided opinion challenged edition.

Welcome to the thread, thanks for proving the point! Jackass.

Offline Bonsixx

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1059
  • TMLfans Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2018, 03:30:09 AM »
Nice post, thanks.

And between the time I posted this and now, I went back and forth on the Martin thing. I don't think he's going to find his way in, but I also don't think it'll matter much now anyway, if it ever would.

But I think it's clear that the Leafs need a hard-hitting power forward on the top two lines. Hyman works hard, but he's not it. JVR is a big body, but he's not it. Evander Kane maybe? But he's probably signing in San Jose.

I don't know, but the lack of anything resembling pushback is disheartening. And all the skill in the world doesn't seem to combat that. DeBrusk is a bigger factor in this series than Nylander, and that's a shame.

I noticed a post in the gameday thread for Game 1 about how it was a pretty slow day for a Leafs playoff game.

I think it's because of those who enjoy advanced stats shouting opinions down with "Corsi, Corsi, Corsi, math, math, math" whenever a new member expresses an opinion. I love the advanced stats and think they have value, but it seems to me that anyone who signs on here to voice their thoughts on the team these days just get mocked and have numbers thrown at their face. It never used to be this way.

This used to be a great community for all Leafs fans, and it seems if you post an opinion now that might go against the advanced stats, it turns hostile.

I'm sorry you feel this way about the site now. I spend a good deal of time here now, without the background of what it was like 'before', and I like it.

I don't find that there is outright hostile shouting down of opinions with analytics; merely a group of people hashing out what might be true from a distance with whatever information they have access to. I have been on the receiving end of data that I had not considered and I appreciate the perspective. I can see why some would chafe at that (it's a natural survival mechanism for humans) and interpret it as hostility. We have a tendency to only take the data that reinforces our already developed opinions (see politics/religion).

If anything, hostility comes up on the defensive side more often than not; for a brief period of time, there was a very vocal pushback calling the 'analytics' crowd bad fans for being pessimists or something like that, and that's unfortunate and also verifiably false. Everyone here is here because they're a fan. We approach the game a bit differently, but at the end of the day we want this team to succeed and that's what we have in common.

So I see your suggestion for icing Matt Martin, and I know you're coming from the perspective of adding that dimension of internally motivated intensity, finishing checks to make the game more of an uphill climb for the Bruins. I agree that dimension is missing from our team. If Komarov was not so slow anymore, we'd have it. I would prefer it come in the form of more minutes for Johnsson, Kapanen. If we can call him up, Carl Grundstrom would also be and interesting add.

Anyway, my main point is, the Marlies in the lineup are the ones that seem to be actually effective, while most of Lou's regular season vets have all seemingly broken down together.

Offline Darryl

  • Administrator
  • Rookie
  • *****
  • Posts: 710
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2018, 03:39:02 PM »
Leafs Playoff - Ignoramuses who don’t like their misguided opinion challenged edition.

Nothing against the rules about people having a casual hockey discussion thread. They aren't insulting anyone or saying don't statistically in depth discussions. Let em be.

Offline sickbeast

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 820
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2018, 03:44:26 PM »
Hi,

I'm a longtime member (since 1999, I think) and I noticed a post in the gameday thread for Game 1 about how it was a pretty slow day for a Leafs playoff game.

I think it's because of those who enjoy advanced stats shouting opinions down with "Corsi, Corsi, Corsi, math, math, math" whenever a new member expresses an opinion. I love the advanced stats and think they have value, but it seems to me that anyone who signs on here to voice their thoughts on the team these days just get mocked and have numbers thrown at their face. It never used to be this way.

This used to be a great community for all Leafs fans, and it seems if you post an opinion now that might go against the advanced stats, it turns hostile.

Anyway, that's my opinion (without "the numbers" to prove it), but for anyone who just wants to vent about the team, and who should or shouldn't play, based on the ol' fashioned eye test, please post here.

No "advanced stats" needed. Is that OK?

And here's the first opinion: I don't care how bad Matt Martin is at hockey, I think they need him on the fourth line against Boston.

Discuss.
I have noticed the same thing myself and I commented on it also, albeit not quite as peacefully as you have done.  I agree with you and it's a load of BS.  There are a handful of pig headed people here that ruin it.  One person in particular.  However the group of them tends to work together and any type of dissent is met with swift retribution.  It really takes a lot of the fun out of posting here.  I'm surprised some of these people live in a free country to be honest.  They can't deal with any sort of opposing opinion, and they mock those who don't share their own point of view.  Anyhow good luck with that.  It's not going to change.

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 23109
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2018, 04:12:42 PM »

I've posted on this site for the better part of two decades now and in general I don't think things have changed much in terms of how the place is. Pre-advanced stats I actually think arguments tended to be longer, more circular and as a result more heated.

Two things though I think I'd say specifically:

1. I think it's always been pretty consistent that the tone of responses an argument gets is in direct proportion to the tone of the argument("Maybe Babcock should consider shuffling Martin in" vs. "WAHT'S WRONG WITH BABCOCK BEING SUCH A WUSS?!?! DOESn't HE HAVE BRAINS?). However there are a lot of people who post the latter and expect to be responded to as if they posted the former.

2. There are always a pretty fair amount of people who take "I think you're wrong" as some sort of terrible personal insult no matter how it's phrased.

Honestly, I think putting any blame on anyone's allegiances to advanced numbers is kind of a canard(and I say that as someone who's neither well versed in them nor has a lot of time for them). If you'd shown up here in 2002 and made an argument that ran afoul of traditional numbers or traditional wisdom people would have probably reacted harsher because of how cut and dried they were. And I say that as someone who made a pretty fair number of "Hey, maybe Tie Domi isn't helping us win much" or "I actually think Kaberle is pretty good defensively" posts.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

TMLfans.ca

Re: Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2018, 04:12:42 PM »