Author Topic: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050  (Read 2156 times)

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Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2017, 08:15:26 AM »

I'm not trying to be snarky here (ok, not TOO snarky)... but is this an instance of Matt Martin not doing his job? Babcock repeated the "he keeps the flies off our young guys" line just a couple of days ago. Andersen's job is to stop pucks. When he doesn't do that he gets rightfully criticized. Marner's job is to produce goals, when he doesn't do that he gets criticized. Gardiner's job is to help keep the puck out of our end, when he doesn't do that he gets criticized.

That's a 6'3", 230 lbs 4th line player running one of our young stars into the boards. That's Matt Martin not doing his job (as defined by Babcock).

Online bustaheims

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #106 on: November 09, 2017, 09:42:43 AM »
I'm not trying to be snarky here (ok, not TOO snarky)... but is this an instance of Matt Martin not doing his job? Babcock repeated the "he keeps the flies off our young guys" line just a couple of days ago. Andersen's job is to stop pucks. When he doesn't do that he gets rightfully criticized. Marner's job is to produce goals, when he doesn't do that he gets criticized. Gardiner's job is to help keep the puck out of our end, when he doesn't do that he gets criticized.

That's a 6'3", 230 lbs 4th line player running one of our young stars into the boards. That's Matt Martin not doing his job (as defined by Babcock).

It's just more evidence that having a Matt Martin type in the lineup is not a deterrent in any meaningful way - especially when he's not actually on the ice.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline cabber24

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #107 on: November 09, 2017, 09:57:43 AM »
Polak will be in next game, unfortunately.

Yeah looks like it. Carrick cant put his stick into Ericsson-Eks neck.

And he was having a good night up until that point.

Head runs a bit hot (same with Dermott with the Marlies).
That's exactly how earn a seat in the pressbox regardless of the rest of his game. Those bone head penalties are also the most difficult to kill. Enjoy your seat next game.
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Offline cabber24

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #108 on: November 09, 2017, 10:01:31 AM »
I'm not trying to be snarky here (ok, not TOO snarky)... but is this an instance of Matt Martin not doing his job? Babcock repeated the "he keeps the flies off our young guys" line just a couple of days ago. Andersen's job is to stop pucks. When he doesn't do that he gets rightfully criticized. Marner's job is to produce goals, when he doesn't do that he gets criticized. Gardiner's job is to help keep the puck out of our end, when he doesn't do that he gets criticized.

That's a 6'3", 230 lbs 4th line player running one of our young stars into the boards. That's Matt Martin not doing his job (as defined by Babcock).

It's just more evidence that having a Matt Martin type in the lineup is not a deterrent in any meaningful way - especially when he's not actually on the ice.
Well can anyone verify there was no retribution? I don't like Martin either but I don't want to use Nylander getting hit face first into glass as evidence as why not to have him. I think it is evidence to the contrary.
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

Online bustaheims

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #109 on: November 09, 2017, 10:09:26 AM »
Well can anyone verify there was no retribution? I don't like Martin either but I don't want to use Nylander getting hit face first into glass as evidence as why not to have him. I think it is evidence to the contrary.

His not being able to prevent the hit from happening is evidence that we need him to prevent these types of hits from happening? Retribution isn't an effective deterrent (I mean, outside of mutually assured destruction - which is not at all the case here).
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline cabber24

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #110 on: November 09, 2017, 10:33:32 AM »
Well can anyone verify there was no retribution? I don't like Martin either but I don't want to use Nylander getting hit face first into glass as evidence as why not to have him. I think it is evidence to the contrary.

His not being able to prevent the hit from happening is evidence that we need him to prevent these types of hits from happening? Retribution isn't an effective deterrent (I mean, outside of mutually assured destruction - which is not at all the case here).
According to his coach prevention is his job which I would argue includes retribution (not that I agree with it). If he's beyond that then he shouldn't be on the team according to the coaches purpose for him.
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #111 on: November 09, 2017, 10:39:43 AM »
Every single one of the triplets has taken a significant questionable hit by the opposition through 17 games and only once do I recall Martin fighting the player responsible.

If Babcock wants to trot out the "keeping the flies off" nonsense, then he needs to be challenged by the media when our kids are victims of cheap stuff that goes unchallenged.

The media didn't call him out over his non-challenge on the 6th goal against St Louis on Saturday night either, it's pretty pathetic. I understand part of the media's job is build relationships that give them access, but being that subservient is embarrassing.


Online bustaheims

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #112 on: November 09, 2017, 10:43:03 AM »
According to his coach prevention is his job which I would argue includes retribution (not that I agree with it). If he's beyond that then he shouldn't be on the team according to the coaches purpose for him.

Just because the coach says something doesn't make it true or useful. He's not preventing anything. He never really has. Just because Babcock wants him to do something doesn't mean that he can or does. Guys like Martin cause these kinds of hits - as they're usually the ones delivering them. They don't prevent them.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #113 on: November 09, 2017, 10:45:17 AM »
According to his coach prevention is his job which I would argue includes retribution (not that I agree with it). If he's beyond that then he shouldn't be on the team according to the coaches purpose for him.

Right, and that's all that I'm getting at. If Babcock wants Martin in the line-up and says he likes his forechecking and hitting and size then that's fine. I don't agree with it, but whatever. The problem is when you listen to his interviews the first thing (and sometimes only thing) he says when asked about Martin is that he "keeps the flies" off our players. And that's just bullcrap. He doesn't. No player in this league anymore does that.

Offline Significantly Insignificant

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #114 on: November 09, 2017, 10:56:17 AM »
According to his coach prevention is his job which I would argue includes retribution (not that I agree with it). If he's beyond that then he shouldn't be on the team according to the coaches purpose for him.

Just because the coach says something doesn't make it true or useful. He's not preventing anything. He never really has. Just because Babcock wants him to do something doesn't mean that he can or does. Guys like Martin cause these kinds of hits - as they're usually the ones delivering them. They don't prevent them.

I will say though, that Martin has shown on a couple occasions that he doesn't want to hurt someone.  There was the play where he grabbed the guy and used himself as a cushion so that the player didn't slam in to the end boards.  There was also the play with Karlsson, shere he shielded him, and apparently said something to him, because Karlsson gave him the double tap on the shoulder to say "Yep I'm good". 

Not saying that he deserves to be in the lineup.  Just saying he's not as bad as some that are out there to intentionally injure.
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Offline Coco-puffs

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #115 on: November 09, 2017, 11:30:22 AM »
Polak will be in next game, unfortunately.

Yeah looks like it. Carrick cant put his stick into Ericsson-Eks neck.

And he was having a good night up until that point.

Really?  I don't think he was having a particularly bad night himself, but him and Borgman were buried in their own end alot.  (32% CF)  Borgman was definitely the worst of the two though.  He had tons of trouble moving the puck.  I'd really like to see Dermott come up.

Online bustaheims

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #116 on: November 09, 2017, 11:34:01 AM »
Really?  I don't think he was having a particularly bad night himself, but him and Borgman were buried in their own end alot.  (32% CF)  Borgman was definitely the worst of the two though.  He had tons of trouble moving the puck.  I'd really like to see Dermott come up.

Bergman's play definitely dragged the pairing's numbers down. I didn't notice Carrick making any significant mistakes, and he was good with the puck when he had it on his stick. For a third pairing guy, he was having a good night.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Online herman

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #117 on: November 09, 2017, 11:52:15 AM »
RE: Martin

Justin Bourne and Kent Wilson had a good conversation about this very topic the other day:
https://theathletic.com/150291/2017/11/08/bourne-and-wilson-a-conversation-on-the-value-of-having-a-tough-guy/

They get into something that I've mused about before: hockey is run for the most part by people who've played the game (in different eras), so their priorities are sometimes emotional connections to what worked for them in the dressing room in the past.

Coming up against a team where you know someone will try to run you does affect your decision-making to a degree, which tips the balance of the many 50/50 plays that happen during the course of the game. Learning how to play through that will separate the elite players from the merely skilled players.

Aside from that, the skills dev team have been putting in really good work into the fringes of our lineup. Martin is a better puckhandler now than he was when he arrived (he's still probably the worst in our lineup, but it's serviceable now). Polak noticeably improved after a season and a half (but we can't fix his speed).

Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #118 on: November 09, 2017, 11:52:37 AM »
Bergman's play definitely dragged the pairing's numbers down. I didn't notice Carrick making any significant mistakes, and he was good with the puck when he had it on his stick. For a third pairing guy, he was having a good night.

Yeah, playing a 69-year-old Scandinavian scout on the third pair was probably a bad idea.   ;)

Online herman

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #119 on: November 09, 2017, 11:54:39 AM »
Bergman's play definitely dragged the pairing's numbers down. I didn't notice Carrick making any significant mistakes, and he was good with the puck when he had it on his stick. For a third pairing guy, he was having a good night.

Yeah, playing a 69-year-old Scandinavian scout on the third pair was probably a bad idea.   ;)

Nice.

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Re: Wild @ Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050
« Reply #119 on: November 09, 2017, 11:54:39 AM »