Author Topic: Looking down the pipeline  (Read 3888 times)

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Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2018, 12:57:50 PM »
Gordeev moves much better than Rasanen.

Gordeev is exciting because he is a huge dman that is quick, if he can round out his defensive game, he will be a top prospect.

He's still learning about gap control and other defensive fundamentals for now though.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 01:02:30 PM by WhatIfGodWasALeaf »

Offline Highlander

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2018, 01:26:23 PM »
Gordeev moves much better than Rasanen.

Gordeev is exciting because he is a huge dman that is quick, if he can round out his defensive game, he will be a top prospect.

He's still learning about gap control and other defensive fundamentals for now though.
pretty exciting to think of having one huge great skating defensemen in a few years.  Even better if one of the others develops into anything.
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Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2018, 03:15:48 PM »
Yeah, remember Jake Gardiner is a success story of a forward transitioning to D and yet he is an absolute bomb scare in his own end.

Gordeev has a long way to go to even be half as good as Gardiner, but the raw skills he possesses are exciting when you consider his size.

Offline Highlander

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2018, 07:29:43 PM »
Yeah, remember Jake Gardiner is a success story of a forward transitioning to D and yet he is an absolute bomb scare in his own end.

Gordeev has a long way to go to even be half as good as Gardiner, but the raw skills he possesses are exciting when you consider his size.
Exactly, this is all potential which the Leaf organization seems to excel at developing. We are now #1 in the development field no doubt.  I remember seeing Gardiner 6 years ago already in Tampa scoring a couple and feeding Lombardi for a beaut and thinking this is the next great one. But you are right on the defensive blunders, seems to be like a mice in maze (for the first time) in his own end behind the dots. Puzzling player
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Offline Highlander

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2018, 07:42:39 PM »
I think some people are just naturals, look at that African American girl who just started  speed skating two years ago at 16 and is an Olympian at 18.

Greg Norman started golfing when he was 18, which is unbelievable for us that know that game intimately.  Lets hope switching Gordeev to D was someones Svengali move.
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Offline Frank E

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2018, 05:53:46 PM »

Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2018, 06:11:48 PM »
It's part of why I am a big proponent of moving the pending UFA's, if they can get another 1st somehow they'd have 4 picks in the top 60 and that's not to mention the rest of the potential return.

Offline Strangelove

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2018, 06:12:57 PM »
I really don't understand the criticism of Gardiner in his own end. He gives it away periodically (as all defenceman do) but his gap control and positioning are strong, which is probably why the Leafs get a lot more shots than the other team while he is on the ice.

The real defensive problems are the likes of Zaitsev and Polak, who are positionally wonky and often blindly fire it away when they do manage to get control.

Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2018, 06:26:59 PM »
I really don't understand the criticism of Gardiner in his own end. He gives it away periodically (as all defenceman do) but his gap control and positioning are strong, which is probably why the Leafs get a lot more shots than the other team while he is on the ice.

The real defensive problems are the likes of Zaitsev and Polak, who are positionally wonky and often blindly fire it away when they do manage to get control.

You're right that Gardiner is a net positive and is of huge value to the team.

However, if you don't see that Gardiner is prone to the "big mistake" more than most other dman of his caliber/lineup slot, you are either lying, blind or not watching enough hockey aside from the Leafs.

I love Gardiner, but it's a love-hate relationship at times.

Online herman

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2018, 06:30:17 PM »
As long as we're "looking down the pipeline", this is not super encouraging...right?

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects/2018/2/20/17025978/toronto-maple-leafs-prospect-report-fedor-gordeev-dakota-joshua-injury-keaton-middleton

That's one perspective.

The other is that we've hit on some recent first rounders and they've largely bypassed the CHL and made the jump to pros.

Liljegren: AHL
Matthews: NHL
Marner: Junior --> NHL
Nylander: SHL --> AHL x2 --> NHL

Our key middle draft picks from the CHL have mostly graduated (Timashov, Dzierkals, Dermott, Bracco, Brooks), or are still slow developing big D-men (Middleton, Mattinen, Desrocher (bye), Gordeev, Rasanen).

Our other depth picks are NCAA or Euro-league players who are developing slightly out of sight/out of mind and have a good deal more run-way before we have to make any contractual decisions. So yeah, the pipeline isn't sexy right now, but that's mostly because a lot of that sex appeal is already in Toronto.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 06:33:12 PM by herman »

Online herman

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2018, 06:32:15 PM »
I really don't understand the criticism of Gardiner in his own end. He gives it away periodically (as all defenceman do) but his gap control and positioning are strong, which is probably why the Leafs get a lot more shots than the other team while he is on the ice.

The real defensive problems are the likes of Zaitsev and Polak, who are positionally wonky and often blindly fire it away when they do manage to get control.

I think our right side in general appears to be instructed to 'keep it safe/simple' and to try to get the puck to the left. Varying degrees of success thus far.

Offline bustaheims

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2018, 07:20:09 PM »
However, if you don't see that Gardiner is prone to the "big mistake" more than most other dman of his caliber/lineup slot, you are either lying, blind or not watching enough hockey aside from the Leafs.

Honestly, I'm not sure if that's true anymore. I think a lot of what gives that impression that people really harp on his mistakes, because he made a lot of them back when Carlyle was trying to make him something he's not. He definitely made more mistakes back then. I'm not convinced he does now. I strongly feel like there's some confirmation bias going on these days.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline Strangelove

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2018, 07:20:31 PM »
I really don't understand the criticism of Gardiner in his own end. He gives it away periodically (as all defenceman do) but his gap control and positioning are strong, which is probably why the Leafs get a lot more shots than the other team while he is on the ice.

The real defensive problems are the likes of Zaitsev and Polak, who are positionally wonky and often blindly fire it away when they do manage to get control.

You're right that Gardiner is a net positive and is of huge value to the team.

However, if you don't see that Gardiner is prone to the "big mistake" more than most other dman of his caliber/lineup slot, you are either lying, blind or not watching enough hockey aside from the Leafs.

I love Gardiner, but it's a love-hate relationship at times.

The "big mistake" phenomenon is mostly a matter of certain fans looking for it, it seems to me (i.e. confirmation bias). There's no real evidence to suggest that he's more prone to big mistakes than other defenceman. At the same time, there are plenty of analytic statistics to show that he's a strong defender.

Offline Highlander

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2018, 08:02:16 PM »
As long as we're "looking down the pipeline", this is not super encouraging...right?

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects/2018/2/20/17025978/toronto-maple-leafs-prospect-report-fedor-gordeev-dakota-joshua-injury-keaton-middleton

That's one perspective.

The other is that we've hit on some recent first rounders and they've largely bypassed the CHL and made the jump to pros.

Liljegren: AHL
Matthews: NHL
Marner: Junior --> NHL
Nylander: SHL --> AHL x2 --> NHL

Our key middle draft picks from the CHL have mostly graduated (Timashov, Dzierkals, Dermott, Bracco, Brooks), or are still slow developing big D-men (Middleton, Mattinen, Desrocher (bye), Gordeev, Rasanen).

Our other depth picks are NCAA or Euro-league players who are developing slightly out of sight/out of mind and have a good deal more run-way before we have to make any contractual decisions. So yeah, the pipeline isn't sexy right now, but that's mostly because a lot of that sex appeal is already in Toronto.
Some people see negativity in a report that to me was neutral and in the case of Gordeev  (1 goal as per report) with the comments the scouts are making about him, actually make him intriguing and someone on our radar screen.
We must remember that the Leafs/Marlies have developed the best training systems in our known universe for development.  Even a guy like Marchment is having making some really impressive strides under Keefe.  I guess what I am saying is that they are trying to max everyones potential.   Not many organizations do this.
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Online herman

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2018, 09:45:50 PM »
Good point Highlander. We are getting pretty good value on the players we’ve added outside the draft.

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Re: Looking down the pipeline
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2018, 09:45:50 PM »