Author Topic: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion  (Read 18045 times)

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Offline herman

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #90 on: September 08, 2017, 02:28:17 PM »
I don't get this:

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There’s a common misconception that rebuilding teams should clear the decks for their prospects, giving them plenty of playing time and avoiding bringing in mid-tier veterans to compete with them for minutes. It’s a problematic approach from a development perspective, as internal competition can help players develop and “over-ripening” prospects is often preferable to baptizing them by fire anyway.

Since when is that true? As far as I know the opposite is true. A rebuilding team should be limited to prospects and mid-tier veterans you can peel off and trade for picks. The players of questionable purpose on a rebuilding team are guys like JVR or Bozak who make the team better, hurting their draft chances, but don't figure to be around long term.

I get why you don't get it.

I believe his stated misconception is from living in Edmonton, where I'm guessing that is exactly what they did. To be honest, the notion of filling the roster gaps with cheap, sellable parts was a bit foreign to my experience prior to the Leaf's teardown.

Offline Coco-puffs

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #91 on: September 08, 2017, 02:29:08 PM »
https://theleafsnation.com/2017/09/08/torontos-experience-with-daniel-winnik-should-inspire-rebuilding-teams/

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Developmentally, Winnik’s value is a little harder to figure because we can’t go back and see what would have happened to Kozun and Ashton and Nylander and Brown if they’d been given more of an opportunity. With the value of hindsight, though, it looks like having a veteran ahead of those players didn’t hurt the real prospects and didn’t derail anybody who would have ended up mattering to the organization.

Okay fine, roll with Martin. If he could actually PK, I would probably have a much more favourable view here, but we've got some very interesting PK ponies already.

I don't get this:

Quote
There’s a common misconception that rebuilding teams should clear the decks for their prospects, giving them plenty of playing time and avoiding bringing in mid-tier veterans to compete with them for minutes. It’s a problematic approach from a development perspective, as internal competition can help players develop and “over-ripening” prospects is often preferable to baptizing them by fire anyway.

Since when is that true? As far as I know the opposite is true. A rebuilding team should be limited to prospects and mid-tier veterans you can peel off and trade for picks. The players of questionable purpose on a rebuilding team are guys like JVR or Bozak who make the team better, hurting their draft chances, but don't figure to be around long term.

Well, on JvR I agree.  He may have hurt our chances at getting Matthews if he wasn't injured for alot of 2015-2016.  Then again, I bet they may have traded him at the deadline that year if he was healthy. 

Bozak, more than a mid-tier vet?  I don't think he moves the needle much if you are a lottery-bound team. 

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #92 on: September 08, 2017, 02:41:06 PM »
I believe his stated misconception is from living in Edmonton, where I'm guessing that is exactly what they did. To be honest, the notion of filling the roster gaps with cheap, sellable parts was a bit foreign to my experience prior to the Leaf's teardown.

In Edmonton they didn't throw young players into the lineup in favour of cheap fill-ins? It seems like they were pretty eager to give younger a guys a chance.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline herman

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #93 on: September 08, 2017, 02:45:37 PM »
I believe his stated misconception is from living in Edmonton, where I'm guessing that is exactly what they did. To be honest, the notion of filling the roster gaps with cheap, sellable parts was a bit foreign to my experience prior to the Leaf's teardown.

In Edmonton they didn't throw young players into the lineup in favour of cheap fill-ins? It seems like they were pretty eager to give younger a guys a chance.

Maybe I phrased it wrong or I'm misreading what you're saying. Edmonton's rebuild was LOOK AT ALL OUR FIRST ROUNDERS and then proceeded to play them out of their depth with limited to no insulation (a la the misconception). Roster spots were gifted to their prospects.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #94 on: September 08, 2017, 02:55:08 PM »
Maybe I phrased it wrong or I'm misreading what you're saying. Edmonton's rebuild was LOOK AT ALL OUR FIRST ROUNDERS and then proceeded to play them out of their depth with limited to no insulation (a la the misconception). Roster spots were gifted to their prospects.

So he thinks it's a common misconception that people think teams should probably do what Edmonton did?

And is that even true in Edmonton? They had Horcoff and Hemsky, they brought back Ryan Smyth, they had a bunch of mediocre veterans. Sure they were bad but there's nothing particularly exceptional about the ages of their players for a rebuilding team.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline herman

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #95 on: September 08, 2017, 03:03:43 PM »
Maybe I phrased it wrong or I'm misreading what you're saying. Edmonton's rebuild was LOOK AT ALL OUR FIRST ROUNDERS and then proceeded to play them out of their depth with limited to no insulation (a la the misconception). Roster spots were gifted to their prospects.

So he thinks it's a common misconception that people think teams should probably do what Edmonton did?

And is that even true in Edmonton? They had Horcoff and Hemsky, they brought back Ryan Smyth, they had a bunch of mediocre veterans. Sure they were bad but there's nothing particularly exceptional about the ages of their players for a rebuilding team.

That's my guess. I didn't bother to look up their rosters though. All I remember is that their 1OAs were touted as franchise savers (even after the first two didn't?). Maybe it's a Nation Network comments thing. There's a really interesting and jarring disconnect between the article authors and the commentors on TLN, like two distinct communities in the same space.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #96 on: September 08, 2017, 03:10:40 PM »
That's my guess. I didn't bother to look up their rosters though. All I remember is that their 1OAs were touted as franchise savers (even after the first two didn't?). Maybe it's a Nation Network comments thing. There's a really interesting and jarring disconnect between the article authors and the commentors on TLN, like two distinct communities in the same space.

You are going to admirable lengths to defend a flawed and lazy premise.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline herman

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #97 on: September 08, 2017, 03:12:29 PM »
That's my guess. I didn't bother to look up their rosters though. All I remember is that their 1OAs were touted as franchise savers (even after the first two didn't?). Maybe it's a Nation Network comments thing. There's a really interesting and jarring disconnect between the article authors and the commentors on TLN, like two distinct communities in the same space.

You are going to admirable lengths to defend a flawed and lazy premise.

It's a good measure of how my workday is progressing.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #98 on: September 08, 2017, 03:12:38 PM »
Bozak, more than a mid-tier vet?  I don't think he moves the needle much if you are a lottery-bound team.

Yeah, I mean only in the sense that I think he's a pretty good #2 C option for a bad team and he doesn't really have a long term future here. It's not leaps and bounds. He's not, you know, Parenteau or someone.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #99 on: September 08, 2017, 06:19:33 PM »
The lack of GDT for the game in 40 minutes is highly offensive.

Offline disco

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #100 on: September 08, 2017, 07:34:34 PM »
"I'm here for (6) more years. Then I'm gonna stay for two more because we'll be really good." - Coach Mike Babcock

Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #101 on: September 08, 2017, 08:35:18 PM »
Dzierkals ties it at one.

Kaskisuo and Scott both made highlight reel saves. 

Grundstrom from Bracco on the PP to make it 2-1.

Nielsen has been a red flag here for me, it's one game but he hasn't imposed himself on the game through two periods, you'd expect him to standout a bit. He did have one good hit.

Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #102 on: September 08, 2017, 09:41:33 PM »
Finishes 5-2 Montreal, Timoth with the clutch -4 debut, two of which he was directly responsible for.

I wouldn't panic though, he was playing with chopped livers slower cousins for most of it and showed some good looks offensively. He was paired with Rasanen who was gone with an injury within a few minutes. Middleton then got hurt in a fight too, which didn't help matters.

I suspect he is the type who looks better playing with better players, probably why he has looked good internationally, including this summers international showcase.

Basically, hockey twitter/Toronto media is likely to make this into more than it really was, resist that urge until we see more.

Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #103 on: September 09, 2017, 07:29:08 AM »
Finishes 5-2 Montreal, Timoth with the clutch -4 debut, two of which he was directly responsible for.

I wouldn't panic though, he was playing with chopped livers slower cousins for most of it and showed some good looks offensively. He was paired with Rasanen who was gone with an injury within a few minutes. Middleton then got hurt in a fight too, which didn't help matters.

I suspect he is the type who looks better playing with better players, probably why he has looked good internationally, including this summers international showcase.

Basically, hockey twitter/Toronto media is likely to make this into more than it really was, resist that urge until we see more.

I didn't see the 4th or 5th goal but Scott should of stopped the 2nd and 3rd.

Offline Frank E

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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #104 on: September 09, 2017, 09:37:21 AM »
Finishes 5-2 Montreal, Timoth with the clutch -4 debut, two of which he was directly responsible for.

I wouldn't panic though, he was playing with chopped livers slower cousins for most of it and showed some good looks offensively. He was paired with Rasanen who was gone with an injury within a few minutes. Middleton then got hurt in a fight too, which didn't help matters.

I suspect he is the type who looks better playing with better players, probably why he has looked good internationally, including this summers international showcase.

Basically, hockey twitter/Toronto media is likely to make this into more than it really was, resist that urge until we see more.

Yeah, I agree with most of what you're saying...Liljegren didn't look comfortable yet, and maybe it's due to the smaller ice.  Couple of real boners though.

I actually wasn't impressed with any of the defensemen, save maybe Smart. 

On the bright side, Pospisil looked a lot better than I expected, and Grundstrom looked aggressive.'

Marchment is looking for a Marlies job, and he was hustling out there, made some plays.


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Re: 2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #104 on: September 09, 2017, 09:37:21 AM »