Author Topic: Game of Thrones (S7)  (Read 5567 times)

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Online herman

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2017, 10:48:25 AM »
I recognize that there's a certain extent to which we have to turn off our brains here but why should we assume that if Theon tried to save his sister she'd be dead in a way she wouldn't be regardless? His Uncle had won, he still had numbers and clearly his interest wasn't in straight up killing his niece and nephew despite his repeatedly stated intentions. Otherwise, why hold the axe to her throat instead of just killing her? Or let Theon's masterful "jump 5 feet away from the boat" escape plan work?

I appreciate that what this may be doing is setting up Theon for some sort of redemption later but outside of seeing the plot machinations at work I'm not sure there's much in the way of logic going on here.

I'm certainly not saying Theon ran the calcs and made the tactical retreat as a cogent decision, as this was plot-requirement and character history colliding specifically for moments, rather than a logical, well-thought out scene. Par for the course as much of this back end of the Game of Thrones series has tended towards cliched climaxes, vs the pseudo-realism that Martin strove for early on.

Online herman

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2017, 10:49:17 AM »
Theon jumping also works as a call back to season one, when he killed a wildling that had a knife to Bran's throat, and got scolded by Robb for risking Bran's life, as, if he had missed, the wildling would have slit Bran's throat without hesitation. So, maybe, it's an indication that he's learned from his past?

This was such a callback-heavy episode, and I completely missed that. Confident-Theon vs Reek.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2017, 11:10:20 AM »
I'm certainly not saying Theon ran the calcs and made the tactical retreat as a cogent decision, as this was plot-requirement and character history colliding specifically for moments, rather than a logical, well-thought out scene. Par for the course as much of this back end of the Game of Thrones series has tended towards cliched climaxes, vs the pseudo-realism that Martin strove for early on.

Right, but that's sort of my point. There's no real reason for Theon(or any of us) to think that jumping off the boat would lead to a substantially different outcome for anyone than staying and fighting. So when you ask "What would have happened if he were brave Theon" my answer is whatever the heck the writers would have wanted to happen. Maybe he kills his Uncle and executes his masterful escape plan with his Sister. Maybe his uncle bonks him on his head and takes them both to King's landing where whatever redemption awaits him happens there instead.

I get that in a larger sense what we take away from that scene is that whatever heroism Theon had shown in helping Sansa escape hasn't irrevocably shifted what had been done to him(or, if you like, that there never was a "brave" Theon) but I'm not sure I agree that we should look at his decision as having any real effect on the outcome of the situation(again, outside of whatever plot machinations the writers want out of any particular situation).

So when people say it looked like cowardice I suppose it's fair to argue about the idea of PTSD or the equivalent being akin to cowardice but I don't know that I'd buy that courage in that situation would have been any more or less futile than jumping into the water.
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Offline Bill_Berg

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2017, 12:25:30 PM »
I'm certainly not saying Theon ran the calcs and made the tactical retreat as a cogent decision, as this was plot-requirement and character history colliding specifically for moments, rather than a logical, well-thought out scene. Par for the course as much of this back end of the Game of Thrones series has tended towards cliched climaxes, vs the pseudo-realism that Martin strove for early on.

Right, but that's sort of my point. There's no real reason for Theon(or any of us) to think that jumping off the boat would lead to a substantially different outcome for anyone than staying and fighting. So when you ask "What would have happened if he were brave Theon" my answer is whatever the heck the writers would have wanted to happen. Maybe he kills his Uncle and executes his masterful escape plan with his Sister. Maybe his uncle bonks him on his head and takes them both to King's landing where whatever redemption awaits him happens there instead.

I get that in a larger sense what we take away from that scene is that whatever heroism Theon had shown in helping Sansa escape hasn't irrevocably shifted what had been done to him(or, if you like, that there never was a "brave" Theon) but I'm not sure I agree that we should look at his decision as having any real effect on the outcome of the situation(again, outside of whatever plot machinations the writers want out of any particular situation).

So when people say it looked like cowardice I suppose it's fair to argue about the idea of PTSD or the equivalent being akin to cowardice but I don't know that I'd buy that courage in that situation would have been any more or less futile than jumping into the water.

What I don't get is how jumping is supposed to save him. Maybe he didn't expect that it would and figured drowning was better than facing his uncle, but he's going to be saved by a miracle now? I mean I expect him to live, but to your point, because that's what the writers want to happen.

Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2017, 12:43:06 PM »
What I don't get is how jumping is supposed to save him. Maybe he didn't expect that it would and figured drowning was better than facing his uncle, but he's going to be saved by a miracle now? I mean I expect him to live, but to your point, because that's what the writers want to happen.

I originally guessed that Jon might spot him while sailing down to Dragonstone, but that wouldn't really make any sense since that battle would have happened south of Dragonstone and Jon is coming from the North.

Maybe he'll bump into Gendry and his row boat out there!

Online herman

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2017, 01:11:18 PM »
Maybe he'll bump into Gendry and his row boat out there!

This is the only feasible solution.

Offline Bender

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2017, 10:54:41 AM »
GOT....Thoughts on last night's episode?
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2017, 12:00:30 PM »
GOT....Thoughts on last night's episode?

Olenna Tyrell is the baddest B on the show.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2017, 01:01:20 PM »
GOT....Thoughts on last night's episode?

Olenna Tyrell is the baddest B on the show.

Yeah, that was a terrific scene and a good send-off for her character. I'm a little surprised Jamie didn't stab her in the neck or something when she confessed about Joffrey.

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2017, 01:24:07 PM »
GOT....Thoughts on last night's episode?

Olenna Tyrell is the baddest B on the show.

Yeah, that was a terrific scene and a good send-off for her character. I'm a little surprised Jamie didn't stab her in the neck or something when she confessed about Joffrey.

I was also sort of expecting him to run her through, but, at the same time, her confession justified the faith he put in Tyrion, so, maybe that was enough for him?
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2017, 03:37:20 PM »

I think I'm sort of coming around to #TeamEuron.

Also, the show is sort of facing a charisma problem. Some actors are a lot, shall we say, stronger than others and some of the weaker ones seem to be getting an inordinate amount of face time right now.
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Online herman

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2017, 04:17:56 PM »
One of the arguments I heard for the teleportation and timeslipping issues (that I just have to ignore now, after 5 seasons of slogging through the Kingsroad, or across the Reach, or through the Kingswood, or wandering the Free Cities) was that Weiss and Benioff delayed overtaking Martin's books as long as possible, at the expense of expediting or giving more time to certain storylines, and now we have this glut of plot threads that need to end, physics and logistics be damned.

Everything this season is a callback, because look how clever we were laying the threads of the ending at the very beginning.

Online herman

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2017, 09:17:37 AM »
Also: impressive acting by Indira Varma (and suuuppper impressive core tone), even though her character is written as garbage.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2017, 09:38:07 AM »
Everything this season is a callback, because look how clever we were laying the threads of the ending at the very beginning.

I think some viewers/critics/people are reading way too much significance into "callbacks" or even the idea of them as being a dramatically interesting device. Referencing something that happened earlier in the show, in some cases overtly, isn't necessarily a sign of clever foreshadowing. It's just acknowledging that they've created a universe they can reference.

Tyrion including a line from his season 1 conversation with Jon Snow in his message to him, for instance, probably isn't a sign that they had specific ideas for it that early on but rather a case of the writers realizing they had to figure out a way for Jon to know the letter was authentic and they had that to work with.

There's an old episode of the Andy Greenwald podcast with Benioff and Weiss where they seem pretty uninterested in the idea of larger thematic concepts beyond what's going on. "Themes are for book reports" I think was the line they used.
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Online Bullfrog

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2017, 09:49:12 AM »
I think some viewers/critics/people are reading way too much significance into "callbacks" or even the idea of them as being a dramatically interesting device. Referencing something that happened earlier in the show, in some cases overtly, isn't necessarily a sign of clever foreshadowing. It's just acknowledging that they've created a universe they can reference.

In the viewers category, I watch with five friends. A few of them are the type that are just WAY too into the show. They try to find every little easter egg, reference, tie-in, allusion, etc. Some of the little things that I miss are neat and, admittedly, are there for the hardcore fans. But lots of it, I find, is the viewer trying very hard to "find" these tie-ins and evidence of foreshadowing. "See, I knew it! Tyrion turned to his left, therefore proving my earlier theory that Jon is actually Dany's twin!"

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Re: Game of Thrones (S7)
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2017, 09:49:12 AM »