Author Topic: Kris Versteeg  (Read 12191 times)

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Online bustaheims

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 10:07:32 AM »
If you can say it was a cap related deal with complete certainty I think you can say something was up with their impression of him overall with what they got for him to make that decision, young talented skaters don't normally get turned over so quickly for less than the purchase price.

Well, it's not like they traded him for a ton less than they gave up for him. He was acquired for a 1st & a 3rd and traded for a 2nd & a 3rd in what is supposed to be a deeper draft. Considering there was less time on his contract when the 2nd deal was made, they probably received roughly equal value to what they surrendered.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2011, 10:11:45 AM »
If you can say it was a cap related deal with complete certainty I think you can say something was up with their impression of him overall with what they got for him to make that decision, young talented skaters don't normally get turned over so quickly for less than the purchase price.

It's not much less than the purchase price though. They traded the #25 and #86 picks for him. At the time it looked like a pretty good bet that Florida's 2nd and 3rd would mean a pick in the low 30's and low 60's.
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Offline Corn Flake

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2011, 10:16:32 AM »
*cough* contract year *cough*

that's a little unfair to just automatically label every single player who has a god year in a contract year as it being related to that.  He's 25 and in his 4th NHL season (all three previous years with 20+ goals and 53, 44, 46 points) getting an opportunity to play on the top line for a team.

Just an observation.

Offline Tigger

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2011, 10:20:02 AM »
If you can say it was a cap related deal with complete certainty I think you can say something was up with their impression of him overall with what they got for him to make that decision, young talented skaters don't normally get turned over so quickly for less than the purchase price.

Well, it's not like they traded him for a ton less than they gave up for him. He was acquired for a 1st & a 3rd and traded for a 2nd & a 3rd in what is supposed to be a deeper draft. Considering there was less time on his contract when the 2nd deal was made, they probably received roughly equal value to what they surrendered.

Picks aside that still doesn't explain why they decided to take a risk on a roster spot and similar cap hit with Jagr and turn over a young talent so quickly that could likely net more in a deadline deal this year if that was the plan.

I haven't read a satisfactory explanation from Holmgren so it's pretty speculative no matter but accepting less in this situation seems weird to me.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2011, 10:29:38 AM »
Picks aside that still doesn't explain why they decided to take a risk on a roster spot and similar cap hit with Jagr and turn over a young talent so quickly that could likely net more in a deadline deal this year if that was the plan.

I haven't read a satisfactory explanation from Holmgren so it's pretty speculative no matter but accepting less in this situation seems weird to me.

I still don't get the central point though. If Kris Versteeg right now is proving that he's a very capable first line player then what does it matter even if Philadelphia came to the same bad conclusion that the Leafs did? Is it better to be wrong in a crowd than right by yourself?

Even if we want to say that Versteeg played really poorly last year, which he didn't, then the Leafs were still in more of a situation to be patient with him and see how it played out than Philly who went into this season looking to compete immediately.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2011, 10:51:50 AM »
I was commenting on the notion provided by cpd, didn't you say it had no bearing on what the Leafs did? I certainly didn't bring them into this.

When I read...

"Kris is an exciting young forward," Holmgren said in a release on the Flyers website.  "He's 24 years old and he'll fit in with our group of players here.  He's a quality forward that can play in a lot of different roles for your hockey team. He can move up and down our lineup. He can kill penalties. He can play on the power play.  We think he's a guy that over the last few years, particularly in Chicago, has really blossomed into a good forward and we think he's going to be a really good addition to our team."

...and four and half months later he's gone for less, I think it's fair to say the message gets a bit fuzzy from the Flyers perspective.



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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2011, 11:01:18 AM »
...and four and half months later he's gone for less, I think it's fair to say the message gets a bit fuzzy from the Flyers perspective.

Well, like I said, we'll actually have to wait and see how the Panthers actually finish before simply saying that they got less for him than they gave up. If the Panthers do falter than, as I said earlier, an argument could easily be made that Florida's 2nd and 3rd end up being the more valuable package than Philly's 1st and 3rd.

Anyways is it weird? I guess it would be if it weren't for the fact that Philadelphia more or less reworked their entire forward core. If Holmgren said "We think he'll fit in with our group of players here" and then radically changes that group of players then it would stand to reason that Versteeg might be less of a fit.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2011, 11:06:38 AM »
then it would stand to reason that Versteeg might be less of a fit.

I don't see that being substantially different from what cpd said.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2011, 11:14:54 AM »
I don't see that being substantially different from what cpd said.

Hard not to. A player not fitting in with the players around him isn't a reflection on him, necessarily. Philly "not being thrilled" with him is a reflection on him and what he brought to the table.

And I'm still at a loss to the point being made exactly. cpd said Philly wasn't thrilled with him either. Even if that's true, what difference does it make?
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Offline Tigger

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2011, 11:25:52 AM »
Even if that's true, what difference does it make?

It's not much more than speculation about a trend of teams bailing on a particular player, it doesn't prove anything one way or the other but it does offer some peculiar features that suggest Versteeg was deemed something along the lines of part of the problem or probably more accurately not part of the solution.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2011, 11:35:27 AM »
It's not much more than speculation about a trend of teams bailing on a particular player, it doesn't prove anything one way or the other but it does offer some peculiar features that suggest Versteeg was deemed something along the lines of part of the problem or probably more accurately not part of the solution.

I think that's kind of ridiculously lumping in three separate transactions together and attributing motivations to them without cause. A lot of times players get traded because they're valuable. Boston didn't bail on Phil Kessel, they saw an opportunity to better themselves by trading him.

Toronto got a pretty decent return for Versteeg. Philadelphia, it could be argued, got a better return for him. From Philadelphia's perspective, ignoring cap issues, trading Versteeg and signing Jagr could give them the opportunity to not only get the 2nd and 3rd from Versteeg but also whatever they could get for Jagr at the deadline if that comes up.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2011, 11:48:44 AM »
I'm not lumping anything that's the general tone when I read about Versteeg and with the last two trades that's my notion as well. I don't think one can say that Philly was thrilled with him the way it went down and I think Burke, while using the asset wisely, bailed on him ...or 'acknowledged a mistake', however you want to say it.

What Philly did aside from the actual trade is as consequential as what the Leafs did, 4 and a half months later they signed Connolly and whatever he could bring down the road too.

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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2011, 11:56:55 AM »
I'm not lumping anything that's the general tone when I read about Versteeg and with the last two trades that's my notion as well. I don't think one can say that Philly was thrilled with him the way it went down and I think Burke, while using the asset wisely, bailed on him ...or 'acknowledged a mistake', however you want to say it.

All of which goes back to what I was saying about both teams being wrong about him doesn't make either team right.

Both teams decided to make changes but that doesn't necessarily reflect badly on Versteeg, especially when you consider the situations the Leafs and Flyers were in.

What Philly did aside from the actual trade is as consequential as what the Leafs did, 4 and a half months later they signed Connolly and whatever he could bring down the road too.

Well that's just nonsense. The Leafs had no way of knowing Connolly would be on the market or interested in them. The Flyers made their decision on Versteeg with Jagr already under contract. They had a glut of good forwards and moved a valuable one.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2011, 12:16:29 PM »
I'm not lumping anything that's the general tone when I read about Versteeg and with the last two trades that's my notion as well. I don't think one can say that Philly was thrilled with him the way it went down and I think Burke, while using the asset wisely, bailed on him ...or 'acknowledged a mistake', however you want to say it.

All of which goes back to what I was saying about both teams being wrong about him doesn't make either team right.

Both teams decided to make changes but that doesn't necessarily reflect badly on Versteeg, especially when you consider the situations the Leafs and Flyers were in.

The Leafs and the Flyers seem like very different situations to me yet they came to similar conclusions which doesn't prove anything either, you want to disagree with notions/suppositions/opinions derived from that, it's all you baby.

Getting stuck on a perception of an overly pejorative connotation of the word 'bail' is not very useful and it seems we're degenerating into whether either team was right which isn't very interesting to me, it'll just keep going 'round as opinions tend to do.

What Philly did aside from the actual trade is as consequential as what the Leafs did, 4 and a half months later they signed Connolly and whatever he could bring down the road too.

Well that's just nonsense. The Leafs had no way of knowing Connolly would be on the market or interested in them. The Flyers made their decision on Versteeg with Jagr already under contract. They had a glut of good forwards and moved a valuable one.

Ugh, I said 'as consequential' I didn't say anything about a crystal ball, insert 'potential ufa' if it makes you feel better.

...and with that I've had enough, you use terms like ridiculous and nonsense like others breathe air, it's tiresome.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2011, 12:25:35 PM »
The Leafs and the Flyers seem like very different situations to me yet they came to similar conclusions which doesn't prove anything either, you want to disagree with notions/suppositions/opinions derived from that, it's all you baby.

I'm disagreeing with your notion that by virtue of trading him we can decide on what "conclusion" either team reached about him or that it was the same in both cases. It doesn't read like you have a terrifically solid understanding of the pretty simple fact that teams can trade a player for all manner of reasons.

Ugh, I said 'as consequential' I didn't say anything about a crystal ball, insert 'potential ufa' if it makes you feel better.

Which, again, is entirely different than something they did with regard to another player already on the roster.

...and with that I've had enough, you use terms like ridiculous and nonsense like others breathe air, it's tiresome.

Oh no. Now who'll put me to sleep while lecturing as to how all numbers are beautiful unicorns in their own right.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Re: Kris Versteeg
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2011, 12:25:35 PM »