Author Topic: Mitch Marner  (Read 19815 times)

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2016, 10:04:59 AM »
He's clearly being held back right now by Bozak and JvR.

What makes you think that?  Bozak and JvR are pretty darn good offensively.  The only way I see them holding him back is on the defensive end of things, where Marner seems to be the best of the three in his own end. 

If you ask me, that's always been the rub with Bozak and JvR- they just aren't good defensively.  Whether its Kessel or Marner, they (JvR and Bozak) compliment the star winger offensively but can become a bit of a shit-show in their own end.  I think the only reason the JBM line aren't as bad as the JBK was, is the other team is more often focused on Matthews now and the Kadri line draws the toughest assignment. 

Offline Frank E

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2016, 10:31:20 AM »
He's clearly being held back right now by Bozak and JvR.

What makes you think that?  Bozak and JvR are pretty darn good offensively.  The only way I see them holding him back is on the defensive end of things, where Marner seems to be the best of the three in his own end. 

If you ask me, that's always been the rub with Bozak and JvR- they just aren't good defensively.  Whether its Kessel or Marner, they (JvR and Bozak) compliment the star winger offensively but can become a bit of a shit-show in their own end.  I think the only reason the JBM line aren't as bad as the JBK was, is the other team is more often focused on Matthews now and the Kadri line draws the toughest assignment.

Yeah, Bozak and JVR are 50 point guys...if 50 point guys are holding Marner back, he's going to have a hard time in this league reaching this supposed potential. 

Offline RedLeaf

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2016, 10:35:10 AM »
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/11/14/13608674/the-magic-of-mitch-marner-breaking-down-the-enchanting-rookie-s-game

GIF-heavy breakdown of Marner's game vs the Penguins.

Like he was with London, Marner seems to know where everyone is on the ice. He's clearly being held back right now by Bozak and JvR.

I dont think I've ever read a second by second , breath by breath,  shift by shift anaysis quite like this before. I'm as big of Marner fan as anyone. In fact, I've predicted he will be better than Matthews when all is said and done. But this writer needs to get a life. We don't need slow motion breakdown of his every movement on the ice to appreciate his talent.
"The Maple Leafs are like a ship with a hole in the bottom, leaking water, and my job is to get the ship pointed in the right direction." --Steve Jobs for Brendan Shanahan.

Offline TBLeafer

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2016, 11:04:03 AM »
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/11/14/13608674/the-magic-of-mitch-marner-breaking-down-the-enchanting-rookie-s-game

GIF-heavy breakdown of Marner's game vs the Penguins.

Like he was with London, Marner seems to know where everyone is on the ice. He's clearly being held back right now by Bozak and JvR.

I dont think I've ever read a second by second , breath by breath,  shift by shift anaysis quite like this before. I'm as big of Marner fan as anyone. In fact, I've predicted he will be better than Matthews when all is said and done. But this writer needs to get a life. We don't need slow motion breakdown of his every movement on the ice to appreciate his talent.

And yet, you sound like you read it all.  :)

Online herman

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2016, 11:49:00 AM »
He's clearly being held back right now by Bozak and JvR.

What makes you think that?  Bozak and JvR are pretty darn good offensively.  The only way I see them holding him back is on the defensive end of things, where Marner seems to be the best of the three in his own end. 

If you ask me, that's always been the rub with Bozak and JvR- they just aren't good defensively.  Whether its Kessel or Marner, they (JvR and Bozak) compliment the star winger offensively but can become a bit of a shit-show in their own end.  I think the only reason the JBM line aren't as bad as the JBK was, is the other team is more often focused on Matthews now and the Kadri line draws the toughest assignment.

Are they augmenting Marner's game in any way, or is it the other way around?

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2016, 01:05:24 PM »
He's clearly being held back right now by Bozak and JvR.

What makes you think that?  Bozak and JvR are pretty darn good offensively.  The only way I see them holding him back is on the defensive end of things, where Marner seems to be the best of the three in his own end. 

If you ask me, that's always been the rub with Bozak and JvR- they just aren't good defensively.  Whether its Kessel or Marner, they (JvR and Bozak) compliment the star winger offensively but can become a bit of a shit-show in their own end.  I think the only reason the JBM line aren't as bad as the JBK was, is the other team is more often focused on Matthews now and the Kadri line draws the toughest assignment.

Are they augmenting Marner's game in any way, or is it the other way around?

Of course Marner is having a bigger impact on them than they are having on him- that's what your BEST PLAYER does.  Marner is our best forward offensively, and will continue to be our best forward offensively for a very long time.  Matthews may become better overall and more impactful (due to position), but I don't think he's going to provide more offense than Marner. 

Sidney Crosby is Pittsburgh's best player and has pretty much led the league in scoring over the last 10 years.  Have Kunitz, Sheary, Hornqvist, etc "held him back"?

Mitch Marner is Top 40 in the NHL in 5 on 5 points per 60 minutes.  All of his ES points have come with Bozak; JvR was on the ice for over 80% of those points.  How are Bozak and JvR holding him back?



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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2016, 02:47:45 PM »
Are they augmenting Marner's game in any way, or is it the other way around?

Of course Marner is having a bigger impact on them than they are having on him- that's what your BEST PLAYER does.  Marner is our best forward offensively, and will continue to be our best forward offensively for a very long time.  Matthews may become better overall and more impactful (due to position), but I don't think he's going to provide more offense than Marner. 

Sidney Crosby is Pittsburgh's best player and has pretty much led the league in scoring over the last 10 years.  Have Kunitz, Sheary, Hornqvist, etc "held him back"?

Mitch Marner is Top 40 in the NHL in 5 on 5 points per 60 minutes.  All of his ES points have come with Bozak; JvR was on the ice for over 80% of those points.  How are Bozak and JvR holding him back?

I think Marner's production would be higher with some other players. Bozak and JvR are not outright anchors, but are they the ideal complementary players that will help Marner achieve his potential?

From my perspective, Marner makes space for Bozak and JvR. Marner feeds their numbers; gets the puck for them; covers defensively for them. So it's a simple matter of resource allocation: Marner (because he's so good) is expending a good deal of time creating and covering for his linemates. Outside of that one game, the bulk of opportunities generated for Bozak and JvR seem to be wasted.

Edit: Current WOWY numbers say my eyes are wrong, at least regarding CF% at evens; sample sizes are small when apart.
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=763&withagainst=true&season=2016-17&sit=5v5

16 + 42: TOI - 169:19; 51.0%
16 + 25: TOI - 167:01; 51.6%

16 - 42: TOI - 36:21; 50.0%
16 - 25: TOI - 38:39; 47.8%

42 - 16: TOI - 21:39; 57.5
25 - 16: TOI - 21:20; 63.8
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 03:02:02 PM by herman »

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2016, 03:20:24 PM »
I think Marner's production would be higher with some other players. Bozak and JvR are not outright anchors, but are they the ideal complementary players that will help Marner achieve his potential?

From my perspective, Marner makes space for Bozak and JvR. Marner feeds their numbers; gets the puck for them; covers defensively for them. So it's a simple matter of resource allocation: Marner (because he's so good) is expending a good deal of time creating and covering for his linemates. Outside of that one game, the bulk of opportunities generated for Bozak and JvR seem to be wasted.

Based on the Leafs roster, where the left wingers are Hyman, Komarov, JvR, and Martin (with Leivo/Holland in the pressbox) who would you rather have on Marner's Left wing?

As for his centerman.  Kadri would be an upgrade on Bozak defensively, but offensively speaking they are not much different in terms of output and capability.  Since Kadri draws the opposition top line as his assignment, I'd argue Marner would NOT be more productive since he'd have tougher competition each night.

Yes, Matthews would be an upgrade on Bozak offensively in terms of talent/skill.  No question.  However, Matthews draws the oppositions attention the most- he faces the shutdown players from the other team night in and night out and it has affected his production, even with a highly skilled player like Nylander on his wing.  Hence, Marner would also face tougher competition by playing with Matthews and there is no guarantee his production would go up.  I say all of the above believing that in the LONG RUN, I think Matthews and Marner should be the cornerstones of our top line.  However, both need some time to develop before I'd expect MORE production out of Marner when they have to go out there and face the oppositions best players together.

As I stated before, with Marner essentially being on the third line right now (in terms of how tough the opposition they are facing), its no surprise that the Jvr-Bozak-Marner line is doing quite well 5 on 5.  Move him up the lineup and you cannot guarantee his production would go up. 

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2016, 04:09:59 PM »
Based on the Leafs roster, where the left wingers are Hyman, Komarov, JvR, and Martin (with Leivo/Holland in the pressbox) who would you rather have on Marner's Left wing?

As for his centerman.  Kadri would be an upgrade on Bozak defensively, but offensively speaking they are not much different in terms of output and capability.  Since Kadri draws the opposition top line as his assignment, I'd argue Marner would NOT be more productive since he'd have tougher competition each night.

Yes, Matthews would be an upgrade on Bozak offensively in terms of talent/skill.  No question.  However, Matthews draws the oppositions attention the most- he faces the shutdown players from the other team night in and night out and it has affected his production, even with a highly skilled player like Nylander on his wing.  Hence, Marner would also face tougher competition by playing with Matthews and there is no guarantee his production would go up.  I say all of the above believing that in the LONG RUN, I think Matthews and Marner should be the cornerstones of our top line.  However, both need some time to develop before I'd expect MORE production out of Marner when they have to go out there and face the oppositions best players together.

As I stated before, with Marner essentially being on the third line right now (in terms of how tough the opposition they are facing), its no surprise that the Jvr-Bozak-Marner line is doing quite well 5 on 5.  Move him up the lineup and you cannot guarantee his production would go up.

Optimizing Marner's skillset is maybe less about the LW and more about the C. Offensively, he is on pace for super-stardom already, and I think he'd benefit greatly from wheeling with a left shot centre. He's had brief moments with Kadri and Matthews, and there were immediate sparks. Plays just last longer with either of those two.

You're right in that the competition is tougher for those two, but Marner plays up to the challenge. I do want to see him on Kadri's wing on the shutdown line because of his positioning instincts, creativity with the puck, and Kadri's give-and-go game (with a heavy shot and net nose on the left). Soshnikov - Kadri - Marner would be interesting to see.

As evidenced by the shift breakdown, every time Bozak was the forward back on D first, the line got crushed in their own zone. He's not disruptive enough, and plays stationary defense. He's got the wheels to keep up with Marner going the other way though. Most of the time, it looks like Marner is playing the centre role, other than the faceoffs.

JvR either doesn't play the right style to match Marner's game, or doesn't think the game fast enough because he's been perimetery this season.

When Matthews is ready to take the top-line matchups, then Marner would be a great fit there, leaving either Kadri or Nylander to take the overmatch advantage on line 3.

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2016, 07:46:20 PM »
IMO

Marner is exactly where needs to be, according to the best coach in the NHL.

Marner is on pace for about 60-65 point this season. No one thought he would accomplish that this season.

IMO again if he can stay away from injuries, he will be the best player on the team, in a few years. (Since game 6 Matthews has really done nothing)

Again this season everyone criticizes Bozak. Why, he is a player who puts up .75 ppg and has with whom ever he has played with.

We have to have veterans with the rookies. or doesnt work, just look at DET over the 20 + seasons.

Let the coach who is earning millions a year do his job.

 

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2016, 09:33:45 AM »
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/11/15/mike-babcock-on-mitch-marner-ive-never-coached-a-kid-that-good-that-young/

Quote
As you coach these young guys for the first time, were you surprised by many elements of Marner’s game?

Babcock: He’s a really talented guy. You look at all the kids in our lineup — Carrick and Zaitsev and Hyman and Brown, and then the three guys that have elite skill — he not only has the skill but he competes every night. He competes with and without the puck. That’s really positive. Obviously, some of those other guys have to compete — that’s why we like them so much. But when you’ve got that much skill, you can float around a little bit and still be in the league. You’re not going to be good, but you’re going to be in the league. So he’s that competitive, he’s on the puck, he’s smart. Easy to talk to. Enjoys the game. Wants to get better.

Mitch Marner is the prototypical forward that Hunter has been picking and grooming: great hockey sense, skates well, has skills, will work. I, for one, would love to see a full lineup of these players, if not at the deadline this year, then next season when the cap space opens up.

The league is transitioning to a game where there's no such thing as having too many players with smarts, speed, and puck-skill.

Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2016, 10:53:09 AM »
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/11/15/mike-babcock-on-mitch-marner-ive-never-coached-a-kid-that-good-that-young/

Quote
As you coach these young guys for the first time, were you surprised by many elements of Marner’s game?

Babcock: He’s a really talented guy. You look at all the kids in our lineup — Carrick and Zaitsev and Hyman and Brown, and then the three guys that have elite skill — he not only has the skill but he competes every night. He competes with and without the puck. That’s really positive. Obviously, some of those other guys have to compete — that’s why we like them so much. But when you’ve got that much skill, you can float around a little bit and still be in the league. You’re not going to be good, but you’re going to be in the league. So he’s that competitive, he’s on the puck, he’s smart. Easy to talk to. Enjoys the game. Wants to get better.

Mitch Marner is the prototypical forward that Hunter has been picking and grooming: great hockey sense, skates well, has skills, will work. I, for one, would love to see a full lineup of these players, if not at the deadline this year, then next season when the cap space opens up.

The league is transitioning to a game where there's no such thing as having too many players with smarts, speed, and puck-skill.

The sooner the better.

Also, kudos to Babcock for hitting the sweet spot in his remarks about the young guys.  Just enough of a hint of criticism (and an implied challenge to Matthew and Nylander to step it up to keep pace with Marner) but mostly positive.

Offline LuncheonMeat

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2016, 01:24:04 PM »
IMO

Marner is exactly where needs to be, according to the best coach in the NHL.

Marner is on pace for about 60-65 point this season. No one thought he would accomplish that this season.

IMO again if he can stay away from injuries, he will be the best player on the team, in a few years. (Since game 6 Matthews has really done nothing)

Again this season everyone criticizes Bozak. Why, he is a player who puts up .75 ppg and has with whom ever he has played with.

We have to have veterans with the rookies. or doesnt work, just look at DET over the 20 + seasons.

Let the coach who is earning millions a year do his job.

You take Matthews, a 19-year-old, to task for doing 'nothing' since game 6, and then praise Bozak. Do you really think Bozak has been that much better than Matthews? Maybe we're not watching the same games.
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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2016, 03:33:12 PM »
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/11/16/mike-babcock-mitch-marner-helped-veterans-hit-ground-running/

Quote
How has having two veterans in JVR and Bozak maybe allowed Mitch to hit the ground running this season, do you think?

Babcock: Well, that’s a good question. Mitch has helped those veterans hit the ground running. Obviously, there is a combination of things there. Bozie is good in the faceoff circle and can pass the puck. James can skate and is good at the net. Mitch is on the puck and elite and smart. Those guys have been a good group. The other thing about it is they don’t always draw the hardest matchup. Naz does most of the time. On the road, usually one of Auston or them do. That makes it easier as well.

Babcock showing Marner more love; completely turns the question around to note that Marner is propping up the vets on his sheltered line.

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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2016, 06:58:24 PM »
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/11/15/mike-babcock-on-mitch-marner-ive-never-coached-a-kid-that-good-that-young/

Quote
As you coach these young guys for the first time, were you surprised by many elements of Marner’s game?

Babcock: He’s a really talented guy. You look at all the kids in our lineup — Carrick and Zaitsev and Hyman and Brown, and then the three guys that have elite skill — he not only has the skill but he competes every night. He competes with and without the puck. That’s really positive. Obviously, some of those other guys have to compete — that’s why we like them so much. But when you’ve got that much skill, you can float around a little bit and still be in the league. You’re not going to be good, but you’re going to be in the league. So he’s that competitive, he’s on the puck, he’s smart. Easy to talk to. Enjoys the game. Wants to get better.

Mitch Marner is the prototypical forward that Hunter has been picking and grooming: great hockey sense, skates well, has skills, will work. I, for one, would love to see a full lineup of these players, if not at the deadline this year, then next season when the cap space opens up.

The league is transitioning to a game where there's no such thing as having too many players with smarts, speed, and puck-skill.

Agreed, I just heard the poignant fact on a round-table that we're just starting to see the first crop of a new harvest of young players that grew up playing the game after the post-2004 lockout rule changes. Zero-tolerance to clutching and grabbing on the puck-carrier has led to a drastic de-emphasis on size and brute strength in order to counter that. Now, even if you're small but fast, skilled and slippery enough to avoid getting laid out, then you're sound as a pound.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 07:01:11 PM by disco »
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Re: Mitch Marner
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2016, 06:58:24 PM »