Author Topic: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews  (Read 33271 times)

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Offline TBLeafer

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2016, 09:44:41 AM »


Because that was the scope the article went out to achieve, and it's fair in its scope - it's based on age bracket. That's it. Adding additional parameters unnecessarily distorts who our young players are and how good they are. As an example, leave Rielly off the list all you want - it's still an insane omission to make if we are judging our young, quality talent pool. I don't think anyone who's a Panthers fan would leave Ekblad off the top of their list of young players within the Panthers organization. I mean, by your definition Marner, Matthews, Nylander etc. will likely all be off this list next year, which makes our team's young players look incredibly shallow when it isn't.

I never clicked the link, I created my own pool and criteria, because if you're gonna rank Matthews and Marner and Nylander against Rielly, you might as well go ahead and rank them against JVR and Kadri and Gardiner too.

I choose to rank NHL'ers against NHL'ers and prospects against prospects.

So what if the prospect pool by my criteria looks more thinned out next season?  The best ones have become NHL'ers, which is a more important list to comprise of top players than a prospect pool.

Offline Bullfrog

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2016, 09:51:33 AM »
My list is a little different.  I have a slightly different definition of what qualifies as a prospect.  To me a prospect is one that has yet to crack an NHL roster.

A U 25 roster player is a U 25 roster player, not a prospect, so in my prospect pool, Morgan Rielly for instance, doesn't qualify.  He's a core player, signed long term.  That being said, here are my top 20 prospects:

Ranked on both NHL readiness and long term success.

1. Mitch Marner
2. Auston Matthews
3. William Nylander
4. Nikita Zaitsev
5. Connor Carrick
6. Connor Brown
7. Zach Hyman
8. Nikita Soshnikov
9. Kerby Rychel
10. Kasperi Kapanen
11. Travis Dermott
12. Jeremy Bracco
13. Viktor Loov
14. Tobias Lindberg
15. Brendan Leipsic
16. Antoine Bibeau
17. Andrew Nielsen
18. Frederik Gauthier
19. Josh Leivo
20. Garret Sparks

Not qualified in my list are the likes of Corrado, Rielly, Marincin, etc. as they have already both played their rookie season and aren't currently in the minors.

I made ONE change to your list. I don't know if I believe it. At least not yet. I just don't think we should all assume we have the number one and two in the correct order. I'd like to at least see them both play in an exhibition game first before I'm completely comfortable putting them in order. Anyone else think there's a chance?

I don't. I think Matthews is in an entirely different class.

Offline herman

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2016, 09:51:57 AM »
PPP's Top 25 under 25 is under way.

25. Christopher Gibson - traded
24. Matt Finn - traded
23. Scott Harrington - traded
22. Travis Dermott
21. Dmytro Timashov
20. Carter Verhaeghe - traded
19. Frederik Gauthier
18. Nikita Soshnikov
17. Taylor Beck - traded
16. Viktor Lööv
15. Josh Leivo
14. Jeremy Bracco
13. Stuart Percy - UFA'd
12. Brendan Leipsic
11. Andreas Johnson
10. Martin Marincin
9. Richard Panik - traded
8. Connor Brown
7. Peter Holland - graduated
6. Kasperi Kapanen
5. Mitch Marner
4. Nazem Kadri - graduated
3. Jake Gardiner - graduated
2. William Nylander
1. Morgan Rielly

Last year's T25U25 for reference with their current status relative to the team and the rankings.

Offline TBLeafer

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2016, 09:55:04 AM »
There is nothing wrong with my criteria because I've qualified it, before I created the list.

Like I said, because it arbitrarily narrows the scope of what's being discussed I think it creates a less extensive answer to the fundamental question which is the overall strength(and effective depth chart) of the organizational pool of young players.

Nah, quite frankly, you're just being a dick.

When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.

Offline Coco-puffs

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2016, 09:57:45 AM »
There is nothing wrong with my criteria because I've qualified it, before I created the list.

Like I said, because it arbitrarily narrows the scope of what's being discussed I think it creates a less extensive answer to the fundamental question which is the overall strength(and effective depth chart) of the organizational pool of young players.

Nah, quite frankly, you're just being a dick.

When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.

Wow, resorting to name calling... classy.  Seriously though, herman brought up the PPP T25U25 and you responded to that by changing the parameters.  Kudos for sticking to your guns, but you've basically stolen the topic from talking about the T25U25 into a discussion of what YOU care about.  I say we just ignore you and just move on to talking about the T25U25.

Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2016, 10:04:26 AM »
When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.

PPP.

Wasn't.

Ranking.

Prospects.

You admittedly never clicked on the link. Had you done so you might have known that.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2016, 10:05:40 AM »
When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

I don't know, I don't read him. But this isn't a list of prospects. Again, it seems pretty clearly designed to avoid that mess. There's probably a value in doing a prospects only list to the extent that if you're dealing with an American audience they're unlikely to get exposed to a lot of information about CHL or Euro league players and you want to focus analysis on guys who, unlike McDavid, hockey fans aren't likely to have seen.

But even still, whenever people do bring up things like HF's organizational rankings it's still valid to point out that their "graduation" standards distort the image of which team has the best young talent. List McDavid or don't, he's still pretty important to the question of Edmonton's organizational strength and how it projects going forward.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline TBLeafer

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2016, 10:15:20 AM »
There is nothing wrong with my criteria because I've qualified it, before I created the list.

Like I said, because it arbitrarily narrows the scope of what's being discussed I think it creates a less extensive answer to the fundamental question which is the overall strength(and effective depth chart) of the organizational pool of young players.

Nah, quite frankly, you're just being a dick.

When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.

Wow, resorting to name calling... classy.  Seriously though, herman brought up the PPP T25U25 and you responded to that by changing the parameters.  Kudos for sticking to your guns, but you've basically stolen the topic from talking about the T25U25 into a discussion of what YOU care about.  I say we just ignore you and just move on to talking about the T25U25.

Which I invited anyone to do.  I think a T 25 U 25 belongs in the main section because it includes full time NHL'ers.

I don't think its fair to rank an unproven prospect against a full time NHL'er and yes name calling because all Nik and Busta have tried to do is discredit my list since I created it using a perfectly accepted industry model.  Multiple posters now (RL and BF) have had no problem discussing my list upon qualifying my criteria.

Neither Nik or Busta created legitimate lists but had no problem trying to paint mine as invalid when it comes to ranking prospects even though it is the very model the ENTIRE NHL uses.

But I guess here the PPP is more credible because in their list it allows for all players in the system under 25, that pitts prospects against full time NHL'ers. 

Offline Highlander

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2016, 10:16:10 AM »
Or I could be arguing in my spare time, that was never 5 minites just now! ;)
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2016, 10:20:23 AM »

My list was legitimate.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline TBLeafer

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2016, 10:20:39 AM »
When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.

PPP.

Wasn't.

Ranking.

Prospects.

You admittedly never clicked on the link. Had you done so you might have known that.

I've clicked on those PPP lists in previous seasons, I know what I was avoiding and why I created a true PROSPECT list in a PROSPECT RANKING thread to begin with.

No offence intended.

Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2016, 10:26:52 AM »
I've clicked on those PPP lists in previous seasons, I know what I was avoiding and why I created a true PROSPECT list in a PROSPECT RANKING thread to begin with.

No offence intended.

This thread doesn't have any ironclad rules defining it. Last years edition of PPP's T25U25 was discussed at the beginning of it. While it's not a prospect ranking per se, it does include most of them so it's not forbidden to discuss here.

(on that note I split this off from last years thread so there's really no point in not having it by itself)

All in all, this was a pretty silly thing to get worked up about, but that's what happens when we don't have a Stamkos thread to unload on.

Offline Highlander

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2016, 10:29:30 AM »
Hockey Lives Matter!!!
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children"
                                           Navaho Proverb

Offline Bender

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2016, 10:29:38 AM »
There is nothing wrong with my criteria because I've qualified it, before I created the list.

Like I said, because it arbitrarily narrows the scope of what's being discussed I think it creates a less extensive answer to the fundamental question which is the overall strength(and effective depth chart) of the organizational pool of young players.

Nah, quite frankly, you're just being a dick.

When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.

Wow, resorting to name calling... classy.  Seriously though, herman brought up the PPP T25U25 and you responded to that by changing the parameters.  Kudos for sticking to your guns, but you've basically stolen the topic from talking about the T25U25 into a discussion of what YOU care about.  I say we just ignore you and just move on to talking about the T25U25.

Which I invited anyone to do.  I think a T 25 U 25 belongs in the main section because it includes full time NHL'ers.

I don't think its fair to rank an unproven prospect against a full time NHL'er and yes name calling because all Nik and Busta have tried to do is discredit my list since I created it using a perfectly accepted industry model.  Multiple posters now (RL and BF) have had no problem discussing my list upon qualifying my criteria.

Neither Nik or Busta created legitimate lists but had no problem trying to paint mine as invalid when it comes to ranking prospects even though it is the very model the ENTIRE NHL uses.

But I guess here the PPP is more credible because in their list it allows for all players in the system under 25, that pitts prospects against full time NHL'ers.

It pits players of a certain age bracket against each other. If that's the intention of the list how is that list considered a non-credible list? Like I said before, sometimes prospect lists are terrible because you have players "graduating" at 20 and the depth of youth in the organization is then considered bad, when in reality that team could have the best pool of young players because, you know, they're GOOD players playing in the league at 19 or 20. I think Auston Matthews is far more valuable than someone like Frederik Gauthier today, and he will still be far more valuable come October when Matthews is playing full time for the Leafs at 18 and Gauthier is a possible career AHLer. But you know, he makes the list!
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Offline TBLeafer

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2016, 10:30:20 AM »
I've clicked on those PPP lists in previous seasons, I know what I was avoiding and why I created a true PROSPECT list in a PROSPECT RANKING thread to begin with.

No offence intended.

This thread doesn't have any ironclad rules defining it. Last years edition of PPP's T25U25 was discussed at the beginning of it. While it's not a prospect ranking per se, it does include most of them so it's not forbidden to discuss here.

(on that note I split this off from last years thread so there's really no point in not having it by itself)

All in all, this was a pretty silly thing to get worked up about, but that's what happens when we don't have a Stamkos thread to unload on.

LOL, too true.  ;D

3 pages to discuss the validity of the prospect list I chose to create that included only prospects....  ::)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 10:33:04 AM by TBLeafer »

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Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2016, 10:30:20 AM »