Author Topic: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine  (Read 32298 times)

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Offline Nik the Trik

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So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« on: April 30, 2016, 09:29:34 PM »

No, no, hear me out. I think Matthews is the way to go. Mostly. He's a big #1 C and that's what the Leafs need. But, that said, it's not a unanimous call. In TSN's most recent rankings Laine has gained some steam. So all I'm saying here is, let's keep our minds open, watch both guys at the WCs and keep in mind that the Leafs get to choose their favourite of the two.

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Offline Potvin29

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2016, 09:32:31 PM »
I'd have such a hard time passing on Matthews.  I want the C.

Offline Crake

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2016, 09:37:14 PM »
If you draft first you take Matthews.

The only way I see the Leafs ending up with Laine is if a) Hunter thinks he's at least close to Matthews b) Winnipeg offers up something like #2, Trouba and something else and 3) the Leafs are high on Stamkos and know they can get him on a good contract.

All those things would have to happen, and even then I don't know if I would do it. If you pass on Matthews, how do you ever get that true #1 centre?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 09:39:09 PM by Crake »

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2016, 09:46:01 PM »
If you draft first you take Matthews.

The only way I see the Leafs ending up with Laine is if a) Hunter thinks he's at least close to Matthews b) Winnipeg offers up something like #2, Trouba and something else and 3) the Leafs are high on Stamkos and know they can get him on a good contract.

All those things would have to happen, and even then I don't know if I would do it. If you pass on Matthews, how do you ever get that true #1 centre?

Well, I guess the answer to that is a few things. One, the Leafs current top 2 prospects are both guys who were drafted with talk about them eventually being centers. I don't know if we should just rule them out as becoming that because the Leafs won the lottery.

I mean, let's look at the teams still in it. Tampa, the Islanders, Pittsburgh and Dallas all have that sort of elite, top 3 drafted Centers leading the way. But St. Louis, Washington, San Jose and Nashville don't. St. Louis and Washington are led offensively by wingers. They have good centers, yes, but the Leafs might in Marner/Nylander.   
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Offline Crake

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2016, 09:57:36 PM »
If you draft first you take Matthews.

The only way I see the Leafs ending up with Laine is if a) Hunter thinks he's at least close to Matthews b) Winnipeg offers up something like #2, Trouba and something else and 3) the Leafs are high on Stamkos and know they can get him on a good contract.

All those things would have to happen, and even then I don't know if I would do it. If you pass on Matthews, how do you ever get that true #1 centre?

Well, I guess the answer to that is a few things. One, the Leafs current top 2 prospects are both guys who were drafted with talk about them eventually being centers. I don't know if we should just rule them out as becoming that because the Leafs won the lottery.

I mean, let's look at the teams still in it. Tampa, the Islanders, Pittsburgh and Dallas all have that sort of elite, top 3 drafted Centers leading the way. But St. Louis, Washington, San Jose and Nashville don't. St. Louis and Washington are led offensively by wingers. They have good centers, yes, but the Leafs might in Marner/Nylander.
Nylander or Marner could become a #1, but if you have the chance to get as close to a guarantied one as possible you can't turn it down.

Without that guy you run the risk of building the Blues or Bruins. Sure Boston won one, but in five years if you essentially have the Blues with a Taresenko leading them and you had the chance to get that guy and turned it down? That's a hard choice to live with.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2016, 10:07:05 PM »

Nylander or Marner could become a #1, but if you have the chance to get as close to a guarantied one as possible you can't turn it down.

Without that guy you run the risk of building the Blues or Bruins. Sure Boston won one, but in five years if you essentially have the Blues with a Taresenko leading them and you had the chance to get that guy and turned it down? That's a hard choice to live with.

See, I'm 95% of the way with you. ASk me right now, I say Matthews and am happy about making that choice. Alls I'm really saying is that there's no harm in keeping an open mind and that NHL scouts know how valuable that kind of #1 center is and some, not all or most but some, are still saying Laine might be the better choice.

In the last 20 years, 6 wingers have gone #1. Kovalchuk, Nash, Ovechkin, Kane, Hall and Yakupov. Yakupov's the only stinker in the bunch. It's not crazy to build around guys like that.
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Offline Significantly Insignificant

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2016, 10:11:02 PM »

Nylander or Marner could become a #1, but if you have the chance to get as close to a guarantied one as possible you can't turn it down.

Without that guy you run the risk of building the Blues or Bruins. Sure Boston won one, but in five years if you essentially have the Blues with a Taresenko leading them and you had the chance to get that guy and turned it down? That's a hard choice to live with.

See, I'm 95% of the way with you. ASk me right now, I say Matthews and am happy about making that choice. Alls I'm really saying is that there's no harm in keeping an open mind and that NHL scouts know how valuable that kind of #1 center is and some, not all or most but some, are still saying Laine might be the better choice.

In the last 20 years, 6 wingers have gone #1. Kovalchuk, Nash, Ovechkin, Kane, Hall and Yakupov. Yakupov's the only stinker in the bunch. It's not crazy to build around guys like that.

Maybe not crazy, but Kane is the only one on the list with a cup win.  You can build around a winger as you say.  Just not sure how effective that team is going to be in the playoffs.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2016, 10:15:17 PM »

Maybe not crazy, but Kane is the only one on the list with a cup win.  You can build around a winger as you say.  Just not sure how effective that team is going to be in the playoffs.

Eh. That seems to be sort of specious reasoning. The reason the Thrashers didn't win the cup wasn't Ilya Kovalchuk. Teemu Selanne was the best forward on a Cup winning team. So was Martin St. Louis and Henrik Zetterberg and none of the Devils teams had any true elite #1 center and so on.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2016, 10:16:59 PM »
I swear to god, next person who suggests trading this pick is getting tossed in the lake.

Is the lake next to a bridge?

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Offline Crake

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2016, 10:19:58 PM »

Nylander or Marner could become a #1, but if you have the chance to get as close to a guarantied one as possible you can't turn it down.

Without that guy you run the risk of building the Blues or Bruins. Sure Boston won one, but in five years if you essentially have the Blues with a Taresenko leading them and you had the chance to get that guy and turned it down? That's a hard choice to live with.

See, I'm 95% of the way with you. ASk me right now, I say Matthews and am happy about making that choice. Alls I'm really saying is that there's no harm in keeping an open mind and that NHL scouts know how valuable that kind of #1 center is and some, not all or most but some, are still saying Laine might be the better choice.

In the last 20 years, 6 wingers have gone #1. Kovalchuk, Nash, Ovechkin, Kane, Hall and Yakupov. Yakupov's the only stinker in the bunch. It's not crazy to build around guys like that.
Sure, I'll defer to the guys who make this stuff their life, but when 99% of the hockey world is saying to go with the centre? That takes some serious balls to go the other way.

This talk reminds me of lots of other years where right before the draft all of a sudden people are saying maybe Hedman over Tavares or maybe Doughty over Stamkos, even though that talk would have been crazy a month earlier.

If they trade down to 2 that's a different story, but to just take Laine at #1? I don't know about that.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2016, 10:20:36 PM »
I swear to god, next person who suggests trading this pick is getting tossed in the lake.

Is the lake next to a bridge?

I'm not suggesting trading the pick. I'm suggesting keeping an open mind about who it should be used on. Not thinking it's worth Christian Dvorak and Phoenix's garbage.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2016, 10:26:35 PM »
I swear to god, next person who suggests trading this pick is getting tossed in the lake.

Is the lake next to a bridge?

I'm not suggesting trading the pick. I'm suggesting keeping an open mind about who it should be used on. Not thinking it's worth Christian Dvorak and Phoenix's garbage.

C'mon, the only place this is headed, legitimately, is putting a gun to Winnipegs head and taking something from them. There is no way the Leafs are taking Laine over Matthews without it. I mean, if it's just Laine versus Matthews, seriously?
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2016, 10:27:26 PM »

Sure, I'll defer to the guys who make this stuff their life, but when 99% of the hockey world is saying to go with the centre? That takes some serious balls to go the other way.

Ok, but right now it's not 99% of th hockey world. I posted this in the other thread but this is from three days ago:

http://www.tsn.ca/laine-closes-gap-on-matthews-atop-tsn-draft-rankings-1.478128

Quote
But when 10 NHL scouts were surveyed by TSN in late January/early February, all 10 had Matthews at No. 1. This time, in a survey of the same 10 scouts conducted in the run-up to Saturday's NHL draft lottery two of the 10 said Laine is now No. 1 on their team's lists. Others suggested they had to think long and hard about their decision to keep Matthews at No. 1.

80% is still a pretty high number but the more scouts are watching these guys...the more doubt there is.


This talk reminds me of lots of other years where right before the draft all of a sudden people are saying maybe Hedman over Tavares or maybe Doughty over Stamkos, even though that talk would have been crazy a month earlier.

But isn't that kind of maybe my point? Some of the reason that talk came up is because, well, arguably Drew Doughty has been just as if not more valuable than Steven Stamkos. Some scouts saw it. If Tampa had drafted Doughty/Duchene instead of Stamkos/Hedman would they be worse off?


If they trade down to 2 that's a different story, but to just take Laine at #1? I don't know about that.

I don't know either. I'm just saying the Leafs should keep every option on the table.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2016, 10:30:07 PM »

C'mon, the only place this is headed, legitimately, is putting a gun to Winnipegs head and taking something from them. There is no way the Leafs are taking Laine over Matthews without it. I mean, if it's just Laine versus Matthews, seriously?

I'm not pulling this stuff out of nowhere. Though. Some scouts are saying Laine's the better prospect. Others are saying it's real close. Sure, if the Leafs fall into the Laine is better camp and the Jets are crazy high on Matthews then you can get something out of it but what if both teams prefer Laine?
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Online Boston Leaf

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2016, 10:30:43 PM »
TALENTED #1 centers are so hard to come by.. take the C and move along

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Re: So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2016, 10:30:43 PM »