Author Topic: The Official TV Thread  (Read 120335 times)

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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1410 on: October 18, 2017, 05:42:37 PM »

I'm a huge fan of Zodiac which probably bodes well for liking this sort of thing from Fincher but generally speaking I find serial killers/the mental profiling of serial killers to be one of the most played out/least interesting things in entertainment so while I'll probably give it a shot at some point I haven't yet.
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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1411 on: October 18, 2017, 06:14:05 PM »
I like it so far (2 episodes in). Itís like a prequel to all those now standard crime procedurals that leverage criminal profiling. I enjoy watching the interpretation of that time periodís zeitgeist through the lens of those procedural tropes (and watching them get subverted by the very fact they donít exist yet). Itís buddy cop comedy without the action and a more understated funny.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1412 on: October 18, 2017, 07:01:23 PM »
I like it so far (2 episodes in). Itís like a prequel to all those now standard crime procedurals that leverage criminal profiling.

Yeah, although it's funny in that it's a genre that includes lots of more mainstream standard procedurals but also more prestige-y stuff(Hannibal, Luther, Dexter to some extent).

Which again isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there is a ton of it out there.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1413 on: October 20, 2017, 12:11:48 PM »
Yeah, although it's funny in that it's a genre that includes lots of more mainstream standard procedurals but also more prestige-y stuff(Hannibal, Luther, Dexter to some extent).

Which again isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there is a ton of it out there.

I'd like to blame Sherlock Holmes for this, because the formula extends beyond serial killing and into rote procedural drama with an abrasive savant chaperoned by a capable but exasperated partner.

Offline Bender

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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1414 on: October 21, 2017, 02:09:04 PM »
I know this is a bit old, but if anyone feels the need for some irreverence and subversive anime, hit up One-Punch Man.
Howany seasons are there now?
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Offline Bender

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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1415 on: October 21, 2017, 02:11:21 PM »
Yeah, although it's funny in that it's a genre that includes lots of more mainstream standard procedurals but also more prestige-y stuff(Hannibal, Luther, Dexter to some extent).

Which again isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there is a ton of it out there.

I'd like to blame Sherlock Holmes for this, because the formula extends beyond serial killing and into rote procedural drama with an abrasive savant chaperoned by a capable but exasperated partner.
Im really enjoying it. Its really captivating and it's a period in history that I don't really see much (late 70s). The aesthetic of the show is fantastic imo as well.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1416 on: October 21, 2017, 02:59:49 PM »
I know this is a bit old, but if anyone feels the need for some irreverence and subversive anime, hit up One-Punch Man.
Howany seasons are there now?

Just one out so far. Second one is in the works.

Offline Significantly Insignificant

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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1417 on: November 15, 2017, 03:26:15 PM »
Anybody else notice that 80's cartoon super villians lacked the ability to plan and the motivation to see their plan through?

Take Skeletor in He-Man for example.  I can only imagine what his planning sessions must have been like.

Skeletor:  ..... and then the boulder falls on He-Man and that is the end of him.

Beast-Man:  What's plan B boss?

Skeletor:  Plan B?  There's no plan B.  We follow Plan A.  Plan A is sound.  It's all we need.

Beast-Man:  Yeah but boss, it's He-Man.  He's in a group called the "Masters of the Universe".  I'm not sure a boulder is going to do it.
 
Skeletor:  Listen your name is Beast-Man.  Beast is literally in your name.

Beast-Man:  Yeah, so?

Skeletor:  So I need less Beast-Man, and more Beast-Mode when it comes to Plan A okay?  We can knock this plan out of the park.

Beast-Man:  I see what you did there.

Skeletor:   It's called effective leadership.  Start picking up tips and some day, you can run your own group to take down He-Man, and all you will need is a good Plan A.

And then, you know what would happen?  The boulder would miss or He-Man would catch it, and they were all like "Oh No!!! The plan has failed, run away!!!!"  And then the next week they would have an entirely new plan.  I mean at least look at the previous plan and maybe build on it.  One boulder didn't work, why not try two?  Maybe a boulder with sticks in it? 

And then you have a villain like Megatron.  The Decepticons would be at some plant they converted over to making energon cubes, and the Autobots would show up.  First off, the statement/question "The Autobots!!!! Where did they come from?" would get uttered.  Really?  You couldn't see the plumes of dust billowing over the desert as they "rolled out" to meet you?  Maybe setup a lookout or something.  You have freakin' transforming planes at your disposal.  Then the Autobots would blow up one of the energon cubes, and Megatron would lose his nerve and start yelling "One of the energon cubes was destroyed!!!! RETREAT!!!".  Like I get that you have to have a certain level of perfectionism to get to the level of leader of a evil militant group from another planet trying to occupy earth, but maybe institute a percent error in your plan or something.  You know, draw some inspiration from the quote "Perfection is unattainable, but through striving for perfection, excellence is achieved", or a hanging cat picture that says "Hang in there". 

No wonder our generation has trouble with seeing things through.  Q3 report due?  Just dodge it.  It'll go away.  Can't meet all of your monthly goals?  Just go home.   
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be.Ē - Khalil Gibran

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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1418 on: November 21, 2017, 10:41:45 AM »
I started the Punisher a couple of days ago and I'm now about halfway through.

At first, I thought it'd be troubling with gun violence in the real world being what it is, and Marvel's Netflix division struggling in its last couple of forays.

So far...
It strikes a similar vibe as Daredevil 1 and Jessica Jones: a character study of how people work (or not work) through past trauma through their training and purpose. Punisher, so far, is the least comic book-y of the group and I'm enjoying it as a deeper, funnier(!) version of John Wick. The acting (from the principals) is probably some of the best I've seen from Marvel Netflix and it's plainly obvious from the first few moments that a lot more work went into the research and understanding of the mechanics involved to treat this respectfully than some of the more recent entries (*ahem* Iron Fist).

They still have time to ruin it all in the back half, a la Luke Cage, but this is promising, so far.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1419 on: November 21, 2017, 01:02:36 PM »

Eh, this is probably one I'm a little too close to to be entirely objective. The Punisher books, specifically the ones written by Garth Ennis, are some of my very favourite comics of all time. As a result it's been pretty disappointing seeing attempt after attempt to take those specific books and try to mould them into something fit for mass consumption. The Daredevil series already tried to do that with one of my absolute favourite Punisher stories(The Punisher and a tied-up Daredevil on the roof) but took what was a very interesting examination of the kind of grief-driven obsession that drives Frank Castle as a character by forcing a more traditional hero to see things his way and turned it into a pretty bog standard case of the hero saving the day in the nick of time.

So I tried with the new series but it's the same old thing. They want to take the neat things Ennis did, the characters he created and some of the stories he set-up, and ignore any of the larger themes of what he did and just turn the character into a rehashed Charles Bronson type.
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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1420 on: Yesterday at 11:39:42 AM »
Iím not familiar with Ennisí story to know whatís missing. Did any in particular themes come to mind, Nik?

The Punisher so far has run with much better pacing and characterization than the other series. The formula has been thrown out. Iím enjoying the layers (and character surrogacy), and how each foil is being set up as Frank if he had pursued different paths at his critical inflection points.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1421 on: Yesterday at 12:31:36 PM »
Iím not familiar with Ennisí story to know whatís missing. Did any in particular themes come to mind, Nik?

Well, theme is probably a thorny word there as it can be hard to isolate that from plot and substance. But I think it's an important distinction to make that he's not just a more violent Batman. In most of those stories his motivations aren't really important(and they're certainly not as simple as protecting other people or revenge). Largely they're meditations on grief and rage, even as they're largely meaningless.

(There's a particular story about Eastern European sex trafficking which actually spells it out plainly. He kills a bunch of people because he hates criminals but is under no illusion that anything he did will change any of the damage done or put any real dent in the sex trafficking industry)

It's ugly and nihilistic in a lot of ways and I understand why ugly, violent nihilism isn't an easy sell. I do get why you can't really adapt most of his stuff faithfully(Ennis also wrote Preacher and most of what the Constantine movie is based on).

Alan Sepinwall said in his review that the Punisher really worked best in the books as a supporting character in his own books. You set up a neat crime story, establish some reprehensible villains and...then the Punisher kills them. Flipping that around into an examination of him or putting him in a traditional hero's role means, by default, having to try and analyze him or sympathize with him. Make him "good". But by the standard of the better books that'd be as silly as saying "Sure, he murdered all of those campers...but what makes Jason tick? What does he do when not killing?"
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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1422 on: Yesterday at 02:14:51 PM »
Alan Sepinwall said in his review that the Punisher really worked best in the books as a supporting character in his own books. You set up a neat crime story, establish some reprehensible villains and...then the Punisher kills them. Flipping that around into an examination of him or putting him in a traditional hero's role means, by default, having to try and analyze him or sympathize with him. Make him "good". But by the standard of the better books that'd be as silly as saying "Sure, he murdered all of those campers...but what makes Jason tick? What does he do when not killing?"

That's an interesting point... so Punisher works best sort of like... Godzilla? Maybe not the best example... as one recent remake made the movie about Godzilla as a character, and the other more recent remake made Godzilla a force of nature that was witnessed by people they feebly attempted to make into characters (on their way to Sokovia).

The show is establishing Frank as a nexus: where he stands in the spectrum of soldiers/operatives, where he stands on the spectrum of fathers, where he stands on the spectrum of brothers, where he stands on the spectrum of survivors of war-trauma. I guess my lack of engagement with Punisher in the comics sort of helps here.

So far in this show, it's following a similar motivation beat that you referenced in the sex trafficking story, at least at first. He isn't trying to topple the systems and industries of injustice; he's just taking out anyone tangentially related to the reason he and his family were ambushed. The series quickly grounds that nihilism behind something a bit more relatable, even if Castle's personal motivation remains the same.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1423 on: Yesterday at 03:39:06 PM »
So far in this show, it's following a similar motivation beat that you referenced in the sex trafficking story, at least at first. He isn't trying to topple the systems and industries of injustice; he's just taking out anyone tangentially related to the reason he and his family were ambushed. The series quickly grounds that nihilism behind something a bit more relatable, even if Castle's personal motivation remains the same.

Well, but that's sort of my point. In the books, they go to some lengths to establish that what happened to him and his family was random. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. A victim not of a specific targeting but just the general atmosphere of lawlessness(it's important to keep in mind that the character was conceived in 70's era New York and as a Vietnam Veteran, something Ennis holds onto as key elements of the character) What he does he does out of obsession/an inability to deal with grief. The idea of him taking a break from it all to work construction because he figures he's gotten everyone behind the specific thing that happened to him and his family is very much not the idea.

I'm really very much not someone who has a problem with these properties deviating from the books generally. I just feel that sort of obsessive rage at the random cruelty of life is sort of the entire crux of what makes the character interesting. "They killed my family, so now I want revenge on them" is dime a dozen stuff.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1424 on: Yesterday at 04:15:39 PM »
Well, but that's sort of my point. In the books, they go to some lengths to establish that what happened to him and his family was random. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. A victim not of a specific targeting but just the general atmosphere of lawlessness(it's important to keep in mind that the character was conceived in 70's era New York and as a Vietnam Veteran, something Ennis holds onto as key elements of the character) What he does he does out of obsession/an inability to deal with grief. The idea of him taking a break from it all to work construction because he figures he's gotten everyone behind the specific thing that happened to him and his family is very much not the idea.

This explains a lot; characters tend to be coloured by their context and  zeitgeist, yeah? This iteration certainly leans into today's political climate.

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Re: The Official TV Thread
« Reply #1424 on: Yesterday at 04:15:39 PM »