Author Topic: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)  (Read 10221 times)

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Offline crazyperfectdevil

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http://www.si.com/nhl/2014/08/26/report-toronto-seattle-quebec-city-join-vegas-2017-nhl-expansion

sports illustrated is probably less than credible on such matters...but it's the offseason.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2014, 03:27:34 AM »
I was just saying that what the league needed was 80 more AHL players distributed among the teams.
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Offline L K

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2014, 05:58:15 AM »
I was just saying that what the league needed was 80 more AHL players distributed among the teams.

From a pure gate-revenue standpoint, I think this is something that is workable on a local level, but yeah, the on-ice product is going to suffer.

What does adding 4 teams to the league do to their new playoff/conference format.  Toronto/Quebec would have be Eastern Conference with Vegas/Seattle in the West.  That would put 18 teams in the East for 8 playoff spots versus 16 teams in the West for 8 playoff spots.  That's a poor distribution when one side has a 50% of making the playoffs and the other doesn't.  They should be fixing that.

The Leafs might as well lock JVR, Kadri, Bernier into long-term extensions this year because I think a bunch of 3rd line players are about to start making 7 million dollars a year.

Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2014, 07:50:20 AM »
Maybe one of these teams will take Clarkson in the expansion draft!

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2014, 08:46:35 AM »
I was just saying that what the league needed was 80 more AHL players distributed among the teams.

From a pure gate-revenue standpoint, I think this is something that is workable on a local level, but yeah, the on-ice product is going to suffer.

What does adding 4 teams to the league do to their new playoff/conference format.  Toronto/Quebec would have be Eastern Conference with Vegas/Seattle in the West.  That would put 18 teams in the East for 8 playoff spots versus 16 teams in the West for 8 playoff spots.  That's a poor distribution when one side has a 50% of making the playoffs and the other doesn't.  They should be fixing that.

Seems relatively easy enough to fix. Just move Columbus back.

Anyways, 1.4 billion in expansion fees, assuming the Leafs wouldn't get a bigger chunk of the 2nd Toronto team's money would work to 46.6 million per team. However if the leaguewide revenues that get split evenly work out to about 30 million per team, which seems reasonable as the Rogers deal will work out to about half that on it's own, then splitting them evenly with the four new teams would result in around 4.5 million less per year per team.
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Offline cw

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2014, 09:20:20 AM »
Certainly doesn't shock me.

The Bell-Rogers ownership of the Leafs is perfect for adding a second team to Toronto by splitting that group.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/2014/08/26/21900441.html
In May, Las Vegas officials broke ground on the building of a 20,000-seat multi-sport arena to be completed in spring 2016.

Construction on a $400 million, 18,000-seat arena in Quebec City is underway with a projected opening date of Sept. 2015. The rink is being built as part of a public-private partnership between the city and Quebecor Media, owner of QMI Agency, Sun Media and Sun News Network.


Prospective NHL owner reaches 'non-binding agreement' with Seattle arena developer
http://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/554793

Hard to imagine Bell-Rogers having a problem getting a second arena built in the Toronto area. So it looks like they'll have arenas to play in. Vegas might be the only questionable market but like Phoenix, it's population is growing like a weed.

As for 80 more AHLers, I doubt half the '67 Cup winning Leafs could crack the NHL coming to camp with their beer bellies. The players of today are bigger, faster, stronger, better conditioned, better equipped and better coached.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2014, 09:23:03 AM »
As for 80 more AHLers, I doubt half the '67 Cup winning Leafs could crack the NHL coming to camp with their beer bellies. The players of today are bigger, faster, stronger, better conditioned, better equipped and better coached.

I confess, I don't follow. I don't think there's anyway to dispute that this would add 13% more players to the league, all of whom aren't currently good enough to be there.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline RedLeaf

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2014, 09:23:41 AM »
Toronto Star Sports ‏@StarSports  9m
NHL denies expansion report, including a second @NHL team in #Toronto. #Leafs http://on.thestar.com/VQwu1n
"The Maple Leafs are like a ship with a hole in the bottom, leaking water, and my job is to get the ship pointed in the right direction." --Steve Jobs for Brendan Shanahan.

Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2014, 09:33:18 AM »
Toronto Star Sports ‏@StarSports  9m
NHL denies expansion report, including a second @NHL team in #Toronto. #Leafs http://on.thestar.com/VQwu1n

In a related story, Tim Leiweke denied that he was going anywhere.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2014, 09:35:11 AM »

Toronto Star Sports ‏@StarSports  9m
NHL denies expansion report, including a second @NHL team in #Toronto. #Leafs http://on.thestar.com/VQwu1n

In a related story, Tim Leiweke denied that he was going anywhere.

To be fair though, this would be a pretty massive decision by the NHL to just about come out of nowhere and get broken by guys outside of the traditional media.

I'm not saying it's not happening but I'm way more suspicious of this than something reported by Elliotte Friedman about hockey in Toronto.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline Potvin29

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2014, 09:59:18 AM »
Other than the dilution of talent, this was along the same lines as I was thinking too if this were to happen:

Quote
@67sound 

I’m looking forward to the 2022 lockout. “NHL demands 60% of HRR to ensure survival of struggling teams.”

Online bustaheims

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2014, 10:26:32 AM »
While I happen to believe a 2nd GTA team would have definitely potential for success, the whole expansion thing is purely speculation right now. I also don't think they'll add more than 2 teams in the near future - and at least one of those teams will be in Seattle or Las Vegas, very possibly both. As LK points out, the league is more likely looking to balance the conferences and divisions first.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline BMan

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2014, 11:29:36 AM »
It would certainly be interesting to see the population of Southern Ontario and to which direction they would lean in terms of who they will support. Any guesses on where the second team would be based? Markham? Since that was the rumour of the day back about a year ago or so..or maybe play out of the ACC until a new arena is built...

I am not comfortable with a team in Vegas. Seattle I have no issue with or with Quebec getting the Nordiques back. Of course this is just some writers big story, so it can all be pish posh, but I tend to believe Tony Gallagher.

As for watering down the league, it's been happening for decades, what with the influx of US College players, so why worry now?

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2014, 11:41:33 AM »
As for watering down the league, it's been happening for decades, what with the influx of US College players, so why worry now?

I don't know what you mean regarding college players but to answer the question, I think there's something different going on here. The first big round of expansion, I think, was sparked because while 6 teams may have worked in the 40's and 50's, the post-war population boom made it so there were more good players than there were NHL jobs(which is probably what made the WHA viable as well). Likewise, I think the second big round of expansion in the 80's/90's was also around the same time as the fall of the iron curtain and so there was a good deal more players available to fill the existing jobs.

Now, not only isn't there any new pool of players to draw upon(youth participation in hockey is dropping, not increasing) but the existence of the KHL means that there are a number of european players good enough for the NHL who aren't playing here.

Not to mention it's cumulative. If it's already a diluted talent pool then that's an argument for stopping, not making it worse.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 11:47:38 AM by Nik the Trik »
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline cw

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2014, 11:55:56 AM »
As for 80 more AHLers, I doubt half the '67 Cup winning Leafs could crack the NHL coming to camp with their beer bellies. The players of today are bigger, faster, stronger, better conditioned, better equipped and better coached.

I confess, I don't follow. I don't think there's anyway to dispute that this would add 13% more players to the league, all of whom aren't currently good enough to be there.

And that's true.

But I think taking that view exclusively flirts with the ostrich with it's head in the sand. 

The quality of that AHL player today is significantly superior to days gone by. A lot of those guys get called up and fill in admirably.

If you've got four cities that can fill seats to watch them and be entertained, then you've got an entertainment mandate, an improved broadcasting footprint and an improved business. And with that, you're growing the sport along with the league - which for hockey I think is critical for it's longer term survival relative to other sports because it's an expensive game to play.

Why Gary Bettman was right about hockey in Phoenix

Hockey’s Growth in the United States: 2003-2013

Hockey’s Growth in the United States — 1990-2010
So there you have it. As the NHL’s popularity continues to grow in each market, so does hockey participation. As I said, population growth certainly plays a role, but to see the high percentages of growth is a testament to the impact the game is having across the country.

The growth in hockey registration in Canada, US and Europe/Russia since 2000 when the NHL last expanded exceeds 13% additional NHLers handily. The growth in U20 registered hockey players is 16.8% just between 2009 and 2013. For example:
http://www.usahockey.com/page/show/839306-membership-statistics
http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/the-iihf/survey-of-players.html
link to article with 2009 data
It's hard to project a grossly noticeable dilution of NHL talent in 2017 with the grassroots growing the game as it has. Arguably, they'll be playing the game even better -  shortly after expansion.

I watched the original six league and the players of today are vastly superior hockey players. I think it's part of the reason we don't see the hockey superstars of today separating themselves from the pack as much as they once did - because the 2nd-4th liners are so much better.

When they quickly expanded the league from 6 teams to 16 in six years and also had the WHA competing with the NHL, we saw a degradation in how the sport got played. No question. But I think that's long been corrected and surpassed.

Beyond a brief growing period for an expansion team to get competitive, I think they can add these four teams with barely a blip in the growing talent pool and how well the game is currently executed at the NHL level.

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Re: Second team in Toronto? (along with Vegas, Seattle, Quebec City)
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2014, 11:55:56 AM »