Author Topic: Phaneuf being shopped  (Read 16340 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline A Weekend at Bernier's

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1091
  • Gender: Male
  • TMLfans Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2014, 11:45:51 AM »
Semantics aside of whether he is being "shopped" or "available" (like everyone on this team should be), I am of the opinion we should focus on obtaining a worthy partner for Phaneuf by bringing in another 1st pairing defenseman to help him out...maybe even drop Phaneuf to #2 status if possible.

I agree with this.  However, if the rumours are true, then Shanahan's evaluation of the team must have concluded that Phaneuf is ineffective as a captain.  It's likely tjhat it's easier to trade a captain than strip a core player of their captaincy and expect them to play hard and well for the next seven years.

I don't know, for me this team is not in rebuild mode.  The time for that was in 2009, which of course is now ancient history.  What's needed here is some patience and likely a reallocation of assets: ie. Trade Phaneuf for, oh I don't know, say Jordan Eberle (spitballing here), then trade Lupul for Alex Edler.  Boom goes the dynamite and, in my opinion, the Leafs are a better team next year.

Offline Potvin29

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 14577
  • Gender: Male
  • Auston 20:16
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2014, 11:47:22 AM »
Semantics aside of whether he is being "shopped" or "available" (like everyone on this team should be), I am of the opinion we should focus on obtaining a worthy partner for Phaneuf by bringing in another 1st pairing defenseman to help him out...maybe even drop Phaneuf to #2 status if possible.

I agree with this.  However, if the rumours are true, then Shanahan's evaluation of the team must have concluded that Phaneuf is ineffective as a captain.  It's likely tjhat it's easier to trade a captain than strip a core player of their captaincy and expect them to play hard and well for the next seven years.

It could also be that he feels the team needs some cap flexibility and that Phaneuf is the best chance to free up space + get a decent return since Wendel Clarkson isn't moving, and Kessel is a few years younger.

It's interesting that Dreger shot it down on his official account though.  He tends not to post things on there unless he knows for sure.  He saves the random chatter to his radio appearances where he spitballs stuff a lot of the time.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 11:49:09 AM by Potvin29 »

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21737
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2014, 11:51:29 AM »
Trade Phaneuf for, oh I don't know, say Jordan Eberle (spitballing here), then trade Lupul for Alex Edler.  Boom goes the dynamite and, in my opinion, the Leafs are a better team next year.

They might be better(although that's why I wouldn't make either of those trades if I were the Oilers or Canucks) but probably not to the point where anyone would look at the Leafs as legit contenders. At some point they're going to have to address closing that gap.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline A Weekend at Bernier's

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1091
  • Gender: Male
  • TMLfans Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2014, 12:31:11 PM »
Trade Phaneuf for, oh I don't know, say Jordan Eberle (spitballing here), then trade Lupul for Alex Edler.  Boom goes the dynamite and, in my opinion, the Leafs are a better team next year.

They might be better(although that's why I wouldn't make either of those trades if I were the Oilers or Canucks) but probably not to the point where anyone would look at the Leafs as legit contenders. At some point they're going to have to address closing that gap.

Yeah, you're right.  Trades of that ilk would likely mean the Leafs are a playoff team, but not a serious contender.  For as much as we point the Flyers dramatic overhaul of their roster a few years ago as a template (I count myself as having done this), really what did it get them?  Ok, an aging Chris Pronger might have made some difference, but despite the fact that they've been decent enough regular season performers they really haven't had any sort of meaningful success.

It's a stark, cold reality, but as we sit here right now the Leafs lack the pipeline of elite talent to seriously contend.  I mean, when you stack up Toronto's lineup against that of Colorado, or at least in terms of depth of top-end players, it's quite grim.

Offline A Weekend at Bernier's

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1091
  • Gender: Male
  • TMLfans Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2014, 12:35:27 PM »
Also wanted to add that, although I'm quite sure Old Man Bill Watters is one of his sources, Kypreos' claim that San Jose is interested in Phaneuf makes a great deal of sense to me.  I also wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see him go there (or a similar team) and be really successful.

Offline Corn Flake

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 3837
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2014, 02:03:11 PM »
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

How could trading the best defense men be a step forward?  Who are you going to trade him for that is better?

If they are indeed going to do this, I see it as 99.9% about instituting a culture change from within the core of the team.   I am mostly a Phaneuf supporter but the reality is he has been captain of record during three major season-destroying collapses.  His leadership seems to mostly be about yelling a lot and it was pretty obvious at the end of this year the other guys were getting tired of it. (see: Kessel caught on viewo telling Dion to "shut his f***king mouth")

If Shanny has determined that Dion is not the type of leader he wants on the ice for this team, then so be it.  It will be a huge gut to the core and will create a gaping hole on defense, but if it's the means to the right long-term end, then go for it. We can live with the re-growing pains.

To be honest, I think if the rest of the defense wasn't so awful, Phaneuf wouldn't have been so heavily relied on.  Meaning if he moves Dion and overhauls the rest of the defense then I think they can actually get better and not worse.

Offline nutman

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1690
  • Marner... This kid has game.
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2014, 03:08:15 PM »
I think Phaneuf is more of a problem on the defense then a help. I don't think he is liked by the core players, and I don't think they like the fact he gets caught flat footed as well as gives up the blue line so much.
I think his best value to the Leafs is the cap we would save , and the value we could get for him in a trade. I bet management is thinking the same.

Offline mc

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1212
  • get the shovels
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2014, 03:09:31 PM »
They brought in the same coach from last year's disaster. Unless they want a repeat a year from now, they better make drastic changes to the roster. Whether that means trading the captain or stripping the C from his chest and giving it to another player - I am all for it. The current team is far far far from a championship calibre roster. Too many passengers.

Offline Rebel_1812

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1254
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2014, 10:57:14 PM »
I do think that people fail to calculate the amount of time a tear-it-down rebuild takes.  Suppose you need 4 really good players to compete for a championship.  That's 4 years in a row of top draft picks (with none of those years being a bust).  Then you have to let those 4 players mature a number of years each.  If the last of the 4 takes 3 years to mature (unlikely for a defenseman, so you have to draft your star defenseman early, which, Edmonton, for example, didnt do, meaning they have to wait several more years for a guy like Nurse to be a force).  Anyway, we are at 4+3 = 7 years minimum for a normal burn-it-down rebuild.  We might be a little better than that because we already have Rielly and Gardiner, who have some chance at turning in to those top defencemen that one needs.

Except that's not a realistic portrait of how any top teams were actually built. In order for a team to be competitive you're right that they probably need at least 4 exceptional players but exceptional players can be acquired in any number of ways. Here's the recent champions and a reasonable guess at their four best players and how they obtained them:

Blackhawks: Kane(1st overall), Toews(3rd overall), Keith(54th overall), Sharp(trade) or Hossa(UFA) or Crawford(52nd overall)

Kings: Quick(72nd overall), Kopitar(11th overall), Doughty(2nd overall), Mike Richards(trade)

Bruins: Thomas(UFA), Chara(UFA), Bergeron(45th overall), Lucic(50th overall)

Penguins: Crosby(1st overall), Malkin (2nd overall), Fleury(1st overall) Gonchar(UFA)

Even if you want to throw a bone to the argument and say that the Penguins 4 best players were the four guys they drafted at the top of the draft, making them the only team that really fits your mold, then there's still the noticeable absence of any defensemen on the list. 

Teams who are rebuilding still get to make trades. They still have draft picks beyond the first round(and can have multiple first round picks). Those four exceptional players can come from anywhere and while the smart money is on finding those players at the top of the draft it's the ultimate strawman argument favoured by defenders of MLSE's seeming religious objection to proper rebuilding that simply drafting high for multiple years will guarantee a team that eventually contends for a cup, Truth is in order to build a cup contender a team does have to sign good free agents and make good trades and draft well outside of the top ten.

The ability to do those things, the ability to turn up nuggets of gold in unlikely methods in addition to drafting at the top of the draft is how teams speed up that process. 7 years may be a fair benchmark for a rebuilding team reaching their full potential but a base built by superstars at the top of the draft and augmented in other ways does not take 7 years to become an entertaining playoff team or even a contender.

The Leafs wouldn't be rebuilding from nothing. They'd still have Rielly. They'd still have guys like Finn and Percy. They'd still have the assets trading guys like Phaneuf would bring back. Heck, they might even still have Kadri and Gardiner. There's no denying that the first few years of a rebuilding process would be tough to watch but can get better fairly quickly.

If your arguement is that good draft picks don't lead to success, you have disproved yourself with your own examples.  Most of those guys are high draft picks.  If the leafs really want to rebuild with the draft then don't just trade Phaneuf; also trade kessel, bozak and JVR.
*******************

Offline jdh1

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2014, 11:03:27 PM »
I think Phaneuf is more of a problem on the defense then a help. I don't think he is liked by the core players, and I don't think they like the fact he gets caught flat footed as well as gives up the blue line so much.
I think his best value to the Leafs is the cap we would save , and the value we could get for him in a trade. I bet management is thinking the same.
Agreed,I am glad that he might be traded..I was in the camp of trading him before they signed him for 7 years.As you say his cap relief can leave the team freed up for future moves.

Offline Rebel_1812

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1254
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2014, 11:03:44 PM »
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

How could trading the best defense men be a step forward?  Who are you going to trade him for that is better?

If they are indeed going to do this, I see it as 99.9% about instituting a culture change from within the core of the team.   I am mostly a Phaneuf supporter but the reality is he has been captain of record during three major season-destroying collapses.  His leadership seems to mostly be about yelling a lot and it was pretty obvious at the end of this year the other guys were getting tired of it. (see: Kessel caught on viewo telling Dion to "shut his f***king mouth")

If Shanny has determined that Dion is not the type of leader he wants on the ice for this team, then so be it.  It will be a huge gut to the core and will create a gaping hole on defense, but if it's the means to the right long-term end, then go for it. We can live with the re-growing pains.

To be honest, I think if the rest of the defense wasn't so awful, Phaneuf wouldn't have been so heavily relied on.  Meaning if he moves Dion and overhauls the rest of the defense then I think they can actually get better and not worse.

I think that is a good point.  They say the shouting coaches wear out there welcome and the same could be the case with Phaneuf as captain.  Its not like they can tell him to change or strip him of the C.  They will have to do like calgary did and trade him for as much as they can.
*******************

Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 12234
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2014, 11:16:42 PM »
I don't think trading Phaneuf would necessarily make the defense worse.  In fact, I highly doubt it would.

losveratos

  • Guest
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2014, 01:45:18 AM »
I don't think trading Phaneuf would necessarily make the defense worse.  In fact, I highly doubt it would.

When you start to give the remaining defensemen his minutes... it'll start to show it's true colours in a hurry.

I hope you're right but I'm 90% sure you're wrong.

Just like Phaneuf himself being a great player at about 20mins a night plays significantly worse at 25+mins a night. So to will the other players that will have to step up.

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21737
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2014, 02:11:28 AM »

I think it's pretty telling that most people who are Phaneuf advocates aren't even entertaining the possibility that trading him could yield a really terrific return for the Leafs.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline TheMightyOdin

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1068
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2014, 06:16:10 AM »
I have never liked Dion as a captain, leader, or even as a number 1 defenseman. 
The Catalyst?

TMLfans.ca

Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2014, 06:16:10 AM »