Author Topic: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal  (Read 8758 times)

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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2011, 09:33:32 PM »
With his whopping 6 power play points.

His even strength points were 22nd in the league for D.  Ahead of Karlsson, Myers, Boyle, Goligoski, Kaberle, to name a few.

Well, it's your benchmark, not mine. That's, what, 22 percent of his points or there abouts? So I guess a better answer on my part would be the healthy ones, who get PP time and have offensive talent.

I'm not entirely sure as to the point you're making here, although lord knows I love a tangent. Nashville didn't have a phenomenal top to bottom defense last year and the Leafs don't really this year. He was a bottom pairing guy last year and most people seem to think he'll have a similar role on the Leafs.

I know the thread got lost but I really liked the Franson trade. A bottom pairing guy who can really help the team's PP is a good addition.
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Offline cw

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2011, 09:34:56 PM »
Cole Hamels is a #3 starter, Dwyane Wade is a #2 scoring option, Steve Young was a back-up QB.

Move them to another roster, where they're not behind a superstar and they're something more.

Hamels is behind two Cy Young winners
 
Steve Young was a backup behind Joe Montana, one of the greatest QBs of all time

Wade is behind Lebron

Three teams. Three third liner roles for Kris Versteeg. There have not been a bunch of superstars holding Versteeg out of cracking and sticking in the top 6 on the three teams he's played for. Some of those teams had some darn good forwards but no superstars come to mind - particularly within the 1-6 spots in their top 6.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2011, 09:42:06 PM »
Three teams. Three third liner roles for Kris Versteeg. There have not been a bunch of superstars holding Versteeg out of cracking and sticking in the top 6 on the three teams he's played for. Some of those teams had some darn good forwards but no superstars come to mind - particularly within the 1-6 spots in their top 6.

Well, again, that all hinges on things we may disagree about. The respective talents of guys like Patrick Sharp, Marian Hossa, Jonathan Toews, Patrick Kane, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Danny Briere, Claude Giroux as well as his role in Toronto. Like I said if memory serves he was second on the team among forwards in TOI when he got dealt. That doesn't say third liner to me any more than Joey Crabb getting time with Kessel says that he's a legitimate NHL first liner. Even if last year's Maple Leafs weren't a team that saw some pretty logic defying coaching decisions they were a team where everyone was struggling and everyone got juggled.

To say "Kris Versteeg was a third liner on the Leafs"does not at all jive with what I saw or describe his contributions to the club.

edit: and, either way, you're kind of establishing my point. Kris Versteeg is a third liner on really, really good teams and talented enough to still score 20 goals on a third line. To not include that seems like the kind of intentional lack of detail we tend to hammer around here.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 09:45:36 PM by Saint Nik »
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Offline Tigger

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2011, 09:57:52 PM »
I'm saying he's a complementary player who was paid as a ufa while actually being an rfa finishing his entry level deal, that's it, that's all.

And that strikes me as pretty esoteric definition of overpaid compared to market conditions or value being contributed when compared to salary.

Maybe but it is/was an unusual situation, suits.

Quote
On a team with Bozak as the top line center ( he of the Reading Royals ) Versteeg had every opportunity and didn't get it done. During his time in Toronto I thought his defensive play was lacklustre and his offensive play was one dimensional.

See, that just strikes me as nuts. Versteeg got every opportunity because the guy who was his centre sucked? So he had every opportunity to play out of position and go against the other team's best defensive pairing?  He had every opportunity not to get decent set-ups?

Versteeg has played center in the past and that was supposed to be part of the versatility he brought. He also played with Grabbo and didn't seem to click at all.

Kessel still seemed to score 30 with Bozak, what was holding Versteeg back, Joey Crabb? I mean the guys above him suck and he's on the third line or the guys above him are awesome and he's on the third line. It's descriptive enough to me and jives enough with what I saw of him on the ice.

35 points -13 in 53 games with the second highest toi on the team doesn't really say much more to me than Stajan did with lots of ice time.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 10:02:26 PM by Tigger »
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2011, 10:02:23 PM »
Maybe but it is/was an unusual situation, suits.

Not really. It's more or less meaningless compared to the other definitions. If a guy is contributing in line with his salary, I don't think many people would agree that he's "overpriced" regardless of the circumstances under which his contract was signed.

In fact, his salary was a reflection of the market. He was able to get what he got from the Blackhawks because they knew he'd get something similar as a UFA. It's really no different than any other signing.

Versteeg has played center in the past and that was supposed to be part of the versatility he brought. He also played with Grabbo and didn't seem to click at all.

So had Kessel but that didn't work out either. Like I said above, nobody on the Leafs last year really developed chemistry with anyone aside from the Mac-Grabo-Nik line. It's why Kessel got paired up with Joey Crabb and various others. Nothing worked because nobody was playing centre with any kind of skill. That reflects as badly on Versteeg as it does on Kessel and everyone else.

Kessel still seemed to score 30 with Bozak, what was holding Versteeg back, Joey Crabb? I mean the guys above him suck and he's on the third line or the guys are above him are awesome and he's on the third line. It's descriptive enough to me and jives enough with what I saw of him on the ice.

35 points in 53 games with the second highest toi on the team doesn't really say much more to me than Stajan did with lots of ice time.

Again, Versteeg was one of the team's most played forwards last year. To just say "he was on the third line" is as incomplete as saying Crabb is a first-liner. Versteeg, with Bozak, was going to score 22 goals and 54 points. That's a very good total for a winger with no kind of centre.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 10:05:56 PM by Saint Nik »
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Offline Tigger

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2011, 10:13:23 PM »
Versteeg has played center in the past and that was supposed to be part of the versatility he brought. He also played with Grabbo and didn't seem to click at all.

So had Kessel but that didn't work out either. Like I said above, nobody on the Leafs last year really developed chemistry with anyone aside from the Mac-Grabo-Nik line. It's why Kessel got paired up with Joey Crabb and various others. Nothing worked because nobody was playing centre with any kind of skill. That reflects as badly on Versteeg as it does on Kessel and everyone else.

...but Kessel still actually managed 32 goals.

Quote
Kessel still seemed to score 30 with Bozak, what was holding Versteeg back, Joey Crabb? I mean the guys above him suck and he's on the third line or the guys are above him are awesome and he's on the third line. It's descriptive enough to me and jives enough with what I saw of him on the ice.

35 points in 53 games with the second highest toi on the team doesn't really say much more to me than Stajan did with lots of ice time.

Again, Versteeg was one of the team's most played forwards last year. To just say "he was on the third line" is as incomplete as saying Crabb is a first-liner. Versteeg, with Bozak, was going to score 22 goals and 54 points. That's a very good total for a winger with no kind of centre.

Ponikarovsky numbers then? He was ultimately put on the third line on a regular basis in Toronto, fact. Y'know, it's funny, I just checked Dobber and he played quite a bit with Richards in Philly so not sure what to make of that but he was on pace for 33 points over 82 games with him.
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Offline Potvin29

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2011, 10:17:49 PM »
With his whopping 6 power play points.

His even strength points were 22nd in the league for D.  Ahead of Karlsson, Myers, Boyle, Goligoski, Kaberle, to name a few.

Well, it's your benchmark, not mine. That's, what, 22 percent of his points or there abouts? So I guess a better answer on my part would be the healthy ones, who get PP time and have offensive talent.

I'm not entirely sure as to the point you're making here, although lord knows I love a tangent. Nashville didn't have a phenomenal top to bottom defense last year and the Leafs don't really this year. He was a bottom pairing guy last year and most people seem to think he'll have a similar role on the Leafs.

I know the thread got lost but I really liked the Franson trade. A bottom pairing guy who can really help the team's PP is a good addition.

That if Kris Versteeg is not a third line winger by virtue of his skill and the totals he has put up over his career, that Franson is more than a #5-6 guy based upon the totals he was able to put up, which were in the Top 30 for d-men at even strength, and top 50 overall.

It's less of trying to go off track, and more of not agreeing that Franson is a #5-6 because he was used as a #5-6 but Versteeg is not a third liner despite being used as a third liner.  I agree he is more than just a third liner, much as I think Franson is more than a #5-6.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2011, 10:21:52 PM »
...but Kessel still actually managed 32 goals.

So Matt Moulson numbers then?

He was ultimately put on the third line on a regular basis in Toronto, fact.

No, fiction.  Near the end he had about 7 games of reduced ice time but just about everyone on the team had a similar stretch over the course of the year.

Y'know, it's funny, I just checked Dobber and he played quite a bit with Richards in Philly so not sure what to make of that but he was on pace for 33 points over 82 games with him.

You could consider that it might say something about what being a "third liner" meant on Philadelphia, or Chicago, but that might be talking crazy.
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Offline Potvin29

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2011, 10:24:08 PM »
...but Kessel still actually managed 32 goals.

So Matt Moulson numbers then?

Rick Nash numbers.

Offline Tigger

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2011, 10:26:49 PM »
...but Kessel still actually managed 32 goals.

So Matt Moulson numbers then?

Maybe but not Kris Versteeg numbers.

Quote
He was ultimately put on the third line on a regular basis in Toronto, fact.

No, fiction.  Near the end he had about 7 games of reduced ice time but just about everyone on the team had a similar stretch over the course of the year.

Back to Joey Crabb.

Quote
Y'know, it's funny, I just checked Dobber and he played quite a bit with Richards in Philly so not sure what to make of that but he was on pace for 33 points over 82 games with him.

You could consider that it might say something about what being a "third liner" meant on Philadelphia, or Chicago, but that might be talking crazy.

...a 33 point pace does it for you then, allrighty.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 10:29:23 PM by Tigger »
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2011, 10:31:37 PM »
That if Kris Versteeg is not a third line winger by virtue of his skill and the totals he has put up over his career, that Franson is more than a #5-6 guy based upon the totals he was able to put up, which were in the Top 30 for d-men at even strength, and top 50 overall.

It's less of trying to go off track, and more of not agreeing that Franson is a #5-6 because he was used as a #5-6 but Versteeg is not a third liner despite being used as a third liner.  I agree he is more than just a third liner, much as I think Franson is more than a #5-6.

Ah, I see. Fair enough.

I suppose the difference I'd see there is that the things I'd read about Franson said that his real failings are defensive. A 5-6 defenseman power-play specialist, or offensive specialist, is not terribly uncommon and the things that hold them back from progressing into a top 4 role are their defensive liabilities.

So the difference I see is that Franson's status as a 5-6 guy is a result of his failings and that he hasn't shown that he's able to contribute in a more valuable role by playing the defense necessary to be in the top 4. By contrast Versteeg has played well in more prominent roles and, to my eyes, the only thing that's held him where he is are the multitude of super talented forwards on the teams he's been with.

Which isn't to say Franson won't become a good enough defensive defenseman to have an increased role, I hope he does. Being a really talented offensive defenseman isn't enough, though, to earn the increased role.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2011, 10:34:46 PM »
Maybe but not Kris Versteeg numbers.

Not Kris Versteeg's versatility either.

Back to Joey Crabb.

Phil Kessel also spent some time off the top line for, if I remember correctly, John Mitchell. You're not going to score a lot of points by establishing that the Leafs sucked last year and Ron Wilson made bad decisions.

...a 33 point pace does it for you then, allrighty.

I'll take 20 goals from my third liners regardless of the small sample size.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2011, 10:57:11 PM »
I'll take 20 goals from my third liners regardless of the small sample size.

You're quite welcome to them.
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Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2011, 10:57:11 PM »