Author Topic: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal  (Read 8760 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Potvin29

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 14577
  • Gender: Male
  • Auston 20:16
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2011, 08:23:36 PM »
Cody Franson was a #5-6.

Offline Bender

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4174
  • Gender: Male
  • Hot diggity daffodil!
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2011, 08:30:05 PM »

"The third-line guys clamped down and got us back to what makes us a good team, checking first and battling out there," Sharp said. "When Kopy scored that goal, I thought we played our best hockey going forward."


Maybe that's the disagreement right there in a nutshell. You seem entirely focused on the fact that Kris Versteeg has played on the third line of some stacked teams, making him a "third liner", while I'm inclined to read that as someone saying that Kris Versteeg's play on the third line was integral to his team winning a cup.

Either way, I'm certainly glad we don't have a player like that on the Leafs.

How did this thread go from Viktor Stalberg to Kris Versteeg is a good hockey player? Frankly, I'm surprised this has become Versteeg's Apology of sorts. Anyway, for all his offensive ability, I am very happy Versteeg is no longer on the team. From what I saw, I felt he did not gel well with any of his teammates in a top 6 role and was a constant defensive liability. Great shot from the point and, imo, not much else.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21727
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2011, 08:31:03 PM »
Cody Franson was a #5-6.

Exactly. On teams where "Second liners" are Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Patrick Sharp and Marian Hossa then Kris Versteeg is a "third liner". On a team where the defense is so stacked that 3-4 defensemen are Shane O'Brien, Francis Bouillion, Jonathan Blum and star of A Fish Called Wanda and Wild, Wild West  Kevin Klein then even Cody Franson is a 5-6.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21727
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2011, 08:33:36 PM »
From what I saw, I felt he did not gel well with any of his teammates in a top 6 role and was a constant defensive liability.

See, now I think we're getting a little nutty. A guy who got regular PK time while on the third line of a cup winner was a constant defensive liability?
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Bender

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4174
  • Gender: Male
  • Hot diggity daffodil!
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2011, 08:43:52 PM »
From what I saw, I felt he did not gel well with any of his teammates in a top 6 role and was a constant defensive liability.

See, now I think we're getting a little nutty. A guy who got regular PK time while on the third line of a cup winner was a constant defensive liability?

I watched roughly 60 Leafs games last year and that is indeed what I saw. Maybe it was due to a difference of system, lack of chemistry or something, but the player I saw did not fit in the Leaf's top 6, which is kind of surprising. I remember seeing him cough up the puck with Beauchemin-like consistency. An ill-timed pass here, a silly move there, taking unnecessary slashing penalties. To some degree the stats do fly in the face of this - Grabovski had a lot more penalties called on him. But from the games that I saw I came away more with "He's great on the power play... but has little chemistry with teammates" much like I came away from Francois Beauchemin thinking "He can be responsible, but does he ever make bad plays and make errant passes at the worst times."

To me his not fitting well with the team last year goes beyond statistics. Moreover, I don't think Burke and his management team (to think, Burke doesn't solely pull the trigger!) didn't see the Versteeg they saw in Chicago when he was playing here. If they did I can't imagine why they would trade him.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Offline Tigger

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 6368
  • You can play
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2011, 08:46:39 PM »
My membership in the Brian Burke Am Never Wrong club is safe here, these are just facts.

You used to be so positive.

Quote
I think there's really only two ways in which a player can be over paid...

I'm saying he's a complementary player who was paid as a ufa while actually being an rfa finishing his entry level deal, that's it, that's all.


"The third-line guys clamped down and got us back to what makes us a good team, checking first and battling out there," Sharp said. "When Kopy scored that goal, I thought we played our best hockey going forward."


Maybe that's the disagreement right there in a nutshell. You seem entirely focused on the fact that Kris Versteeg has played on the third line of some stacked teams, making him a "third liner", while I'm inclined to read that as someone saying that Kris Versteeg's play on the third line was integral to his team winning a cup.

Either way, I'm certainly glad we don't have a player like that on the Leafs.

I guess you missed the part where I said he was a 3rd liner on a cup winning team, I understand how important that is, it's why I included the details about how his line was effective in a Cup final game but he also seemed to blow a chance to be more with a fairly challenged Toronto squad and couldn't crack Philly's top six either and that deserves some focus too, no? We're not talking about some random board comments about Thomas suddenly being a back up after a few off games.

On a team with Bozak as the top line center ( he of the Reading Royals ) Versteeg had every opportunity and didn't get it done. During his time in Toronto I thought his defensive play was lacklustre and his offensive play was one dimensional.

"My father was born shortly after the Wright Brothers" Charlie Duke

Offline BlueWhiteBlood

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4132
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2011, 08:54:28 PM »
Well, PaulR did say that we love him sometimes and hate him other times, so a split about him just seems appropriate. I thought he was cocky, I hated the mouth guard thing, but he could play some decent hockey. He's definitely not a 1st liner, more of a second liner on a decent team and not near a defensive specialist either for third line. I don't miss him at all.
BWB

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21727
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2011, 09:01:44 PM »
I watched roughly 60 Leafs games last year and that is indeed what I saw. Maybe it was due to a difference of system, lack of chemistry or something, but the player I saw did not fit in the Leaf's top 6, which is kind of surprising. I remember seeing him cough up the puck with Beauchemin-like consistency. An ill-timed pass here, a silly move there, taking unnecessary slashing penalties. To some degree the stats do fly in the face of this - Grabovski had a lot more penalties called on him. But from the games that I saw I came away more with "He's great on the power play... but has little chemistry with teammates" much like I came away from Francois Beauchemin thinking "He can be responsible, but does he ever make bad plays and make errant passes at the worst times."

He finished with 35 giveaways, fewer than Kessel, Bozak, Mac and Kessel. I'd be the first guy to say the giveaway stat is dicey but it's food for thought.

Did Versteeg develop great chemistry with anyone? No, probably not although as you say he did play well on the power play and I thought he played pretty well with Armstrong in the games where he did.

Is that Versteeg's fault? I don't think so. I think Kessel largely failed in the same way. I don't think it's either of their faults. I think that for speedy, talented wingers they need a good centre for chemistry to really develop and the Leafs were so bad in that area that it reflected poorly on everyone.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Potvin29

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 14577
  • Gender: Male
  • Auston 20:16
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2011, 09:06:29 PM »
Cody Franson was a #5-6.

Exactly. On teams where "Second liners" are Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Patrick Sharp and Marian Hossa then Kris Versteeg is a "third liner". On a team where the defense is so stacked that 3-4 defensemen are Shane O'Brien, Francis Bouillion, Jonathan Blum and star of A Fish Called Wanda and Wild, Wild West  Kevin Klein then even Cody Franson is a 5-6.

How many 5-6 defensemen score top 50 for D in points?

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21727
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2011, 09:09:32 PM »
You used to be so positive.

Hey, I said I'm a member.

I'm saying he's a complementary player who was paid as a ufa while actually being an rfa finishing his entry level deal, that's it, that's all.

And that strikes me as pretty esoteric definition of overpaid compared to market conditions or value being contributed when compared to salary.

I guess you missed the part where I said he was a 3rd liner on a cup winning team, I understand how important that is, it's why I included the details about how his line was effective in a Cup final game but he also seemed to blow a chance to be more with a fairly challenged Toronto squad and couldn't crack Philly's top six either and that deserves some focus too, no? We're not talking about some random board comments about Thomas suddenly being a back up after a few off games.

Yes, that absolutely deserves some focus. But, in focus, I keep coming back to the fact that the teams where Versteeg is on the third line is teams where the guys above him are ridiculously good. Does it bear mentioning that Versteeg isn't better than Briere or Carter or Mike Richards or Claude Giroux? Sure. Likewise, Pat Kane and Marian Hossa kept him on the third line. That's the thing to take away from that, not that he's a "third liner" in the way that Rob Niedermayer is a third liner. There's nothing inherently descriptive about playing on the third line and by labeling him as such you're tossing him into a widely disparate group.

Again, Tim Thomas was a back-up. Cole Hamels is his team's #3 starter. Those aren't legit descriptions though.

On a team with Bozak as the top line center ( he of the Reading Royals ) Versteeg had every opportunity and didn't get it done. During his time in Toronto I thought his defensive play was lacklustre and his offensive play was one dimensional.

See, that just strikes me as nuts. Versteeg got every opportunity because the guy who was his centre sucked? So he had every opportunity to play out of position and go against the other team's best defensive pairing?  He had every opportunity not to get decent set-ups?
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline cw

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 3167
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2011, 09:10:07 PM »
He effectively finished as a 3rd liner here after getting shots in the top 6. And he was definitely a 3rd liner in Philly. Now with Florida's weak/questionable roster, maybe he can find a spot in the top 6 and stick.

I changed that post because I didn't especially want to dwell there but, sure, to the extent that "third liner" is a dismissive label regardless of a player's abilities and contributions in that role or the circumstances that find them in that role, then sure. I'm not disputing Kris Versteeg has played on a third line. My point is that it's because he's as versatile as he is that he can be used in that role and still be effective and that's evidence of his value.

Cole Hamels is a #3 starter, Dwyane Wade is a #2 scoring option, Steve Young was a back-up QB.

I don't know about "dismissive label". He is what he is and on three teams, his coaches basically concluded his talent assessment by playing him on their third line. Using a very common term in hockey, "third liner" identifies where he fit in various groups of forwards on a hockey roster rather than merely a "dismissive label". What are we supposed to do, call him a second liner when he played mostly as a third liner or wound up on a third line when things didn't work out with him in a top 6 role?

Is calling him a "tweener" less dismissive because I think that might overstate a little?

For me, his "versatility" was kind of limited. He can put up points and he can forecheck/steal the puck - those are his strong suits. He doesn't hit much or blow you away in shot blocking. He's nothing special on the PK. His game goes up in the offensive zone - I think he's defensively suspect and lacking in interest in the D zone. His head and attitude seem to be a little more about "me" than the typical NHLer. And I'm not sure he plays real well with others - in terms of a being a good team player on the ice. Some of that's subjective but that's the impression he left me with.

I wish him the best but have no remorse he's playing elsewhere. I suspect Burke & the Flyers feel similarly.

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21727
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2011, 09:12:14 PM »
How many 5-6 defensemen score top 50 for D in points?

The ones who get a lot of power play time?
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Bender

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4174
  • Gender: Male
  • Hot diggity daffodil!
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2011, 09:13:13 PM »
I watched roughly 60 Leafs games last year and that is indeed what I saw. Maybe it was due to a difference of system, lack of chemistry or something, but the player I saw did not fit in the Leaf's top 6, which is kind of surprising. I remember seeing him cough up the puck with Beauchemin-like consistency. An ill-timed pass here, a silly move there, taking unnecessary slashing penalties. To some degree the stats do fly in the face of this - Grabovski had a lot more penalties called on him. But from the games that I saw I came away more with "He's great on the power play... but has little chemistry with teammates" much like I came away from Francois Beauchemin thinking "He can be responsible, but does he ever make bad plays and make errant passes at the worst times."

He finished with 35 giveaways, fewer than Kessel, Bozak, Mac and Kessel. I'd be the first guy to say the giveaway stat is dicey but it's food for thought.

Did Versteeg develop great chemistry with anyone? No, probably not although as you say he did play well on the power play and I thought he played pretty well with Armstrong in the games where he did.

Is that Versteeg's fault? I don't think so. I think Kessel largely failed in the same way. I don't think it's either of their faults. I think that for speedy, talented wingers they need a good centre for chemistry to really develop and the Leafs were so bad in that area that it reflected poorly on everyone.

I'd say that's also a pretty fair analysis.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21727
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2011, 09:18:03 PM »
I don't know about "dismissive label". He is what he is and on three teams, his coaches basically concluded his talent assessment by playing him on their third line. Using a very common term in hockey, "third liner" identifies where he fit in various groups of forwards on a hockey roster rather than merely a "dismissive label". What are we supposed to do, call him a second liner when he played mostly as a third liner or wound up on a third line when things didn't work out with him in a top 6 role?

I'm not sure it's asking for some ridiculous amount of nuance to say that Versteeg is a third line forward on teams where the top 6 is stacked or that, on a third line, he's still a consistent 20 goal scorer.

Two teams with amazing forwards put him on the third line. One mess of a team had him in a bigger role where his production matched his role. To sum all of that up with "third liner" strikes me as kind of being intentionally marginal and dismissive of the actual facts of how good he is and what he contributes.

His head and attitude seem to be a little more about "me" than the typical NHLer. And I'm not sure he plays real well with others - in terms of a being a good team player on the ice. Some of that's subjective but that's the impression he left me with.

I'm not much for arguing these subjectives. I personally think that 90% of what you said here about Versteeg really applies better to Phil Kessel but I've never thought those conversations are particularly constructive or engaging. Whatever causes you to think Kris Verseeg is about himself, be it rap music or mouthguards, I can't comment on.

I think, though, that calling a guy with his track record of success any sort of impediment to team play, though, falls flat on it's face.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 09:22:29 PM by Saint Nik »
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Potvin29

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 14577
  • Gender: Male
  • Auston 20:16
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2011, 09:18:33 PM »
How many 5-6 defensemen score top 50 for D in points?

The ones who get a lot of power play time?

With his whopping 6 power play points.

His even strength points were 22nd in the league for D.  Ahead of Karlsson, Myers, Boyle, Goligoski, Kaberle, to name a few.

TMLfans.ca

Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2011, 09:18:33 PM »