Author Topic: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal  (Read 8757 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21713
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2011, 10:31:16 PM »
Yeah, I mean I guess I agree that we're more likely to lose the trade if we include the package we received for Versteeg as opposed to just looking at the Chicago trade exclusively. A first rounder is more likely to bust than Versteeg is to. But considering we're comparing these assets to a guy who will most likely be a good 3rd liner at best, I think it'd be pretty difficult for us to flat out lose this trade in any sense.

I probably agree that the Leafs will never look back on the series of transactions with any real regret. Worst case scenario is probably that Stalberg becomes a half-decent 20 goal scoring winger while Paradis becomes a good bottom 6 forward while Percy/Leivo don't make it. The flip side to that is that there's probably not a gigantic payoff either with best case being Percy is a pretty solid NHL defenseman while Stalberg is no more than what we see him as today and Paradis flames out. Like I said, that's just wait and see.

To me the more pressing question is will the Leafs be happy with Versteeg for Percy/Leivo. I know that not everyone like Versteeg as much as I did but he's 25 with three 20 goal seasons and a cup ring. I think he can easily grow to be a 30 goal/60 point guy who plays pretty good defense and has a big time mouthguard endorsement.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Tigger

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 6368
  • You can play
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2011, 10:47:47 PM »
Yeah, if we're going to add the Versteeg to Philly trade in the discussion, then yeah it will be a few years before we can conclude who won that deal. But looking exclusively at the Stalberg to Chicago trade, I think it's definitely a win for us. Paradis and DiDomenico will both be lucky to make the NHL, and Stalberg could find himself out of it in a couple of years if he doesn't turn things around.

I don't know, if you can't declare a winner Philly/Toronto I don't think you can Toronto/Chicago either because it's the same principal. A low first round pick and a third aren't likely to make big NHL impacts even if Percy is widely regarded as a safe pick with a low ceiling.

Seems to me that cap implications could count towards a win/win/win of sorts overall, I mean, Chicago probably wouldn't have traded VerPhilly or The Dustin Jets with this years cap... well at least not for the same reasons ( and likely results ) while Toronto also received cap space and a decent pick that resonates with a 'youth movement' of sorts ( to me at least ) from their deal. Philly got a slightly over priced 3rd liner that remains decent depth for them... all of them seemed to get what they wanted or at least needed in some way.

Best player? Philly, not by a huge amount though. Best cap accommodations? Chicago. Best 'Merrill' with a subsequent RBI and some cap love? Toronto.
 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 06:24:26 PM by Tigger »
"My father was born shortly after the Wright Brothers" Charlie Duke

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21713
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2011, 11:12:16 PM »

Pretty tough, after the spending frenzy we just saw, to say that a versatile 25 year old 20 goal scorer is overpaid at three million per.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Tigger

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 6368
  • You can play
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2011, 11:27:34 PM »

Pretty tough, after the spending frenzy we just saw, to say that a versatile 25 year old 20 goal scorer is overpaid at three million per.

I wouldn't say that was the case when Toronto traded for him and Armstrong was characterized as 'slightly' over paid at the time though now looks better some too, in spite of injuries... Coupled with a bad back VerIety's versatility relegates him to a third line role on a cup winning team and at that price he still seems like a bit of a luxury to me.
"My father was born shortly after the Wright Brothers" Charlie Duke

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21713
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2011, 11:40:56 PM »

Pretty tough, after the spending frenzy we just saw, to say that a versatile 25 year old 20 goal scorer is overpaid at three million per.

I wouldn't say that was the case when Toronto traded for him and Armstrong was characterized as 'slightly' over paid at the time though now looks better some too, in spite of injuries... Coupled with a bad back VerIety's versatility relegates him to a third line role on a cup winning team and at that price he still seems like a bit of a luxury to me.

I don't think his versatility "relegates" him to anything. His versatility allows him to be effective on the third line as well as in a top 6 role. Armstrong, as a guy who's pretty strictly a bottom six guy, may be a little overpaid at 3 per. A guy who can produce what Versteeg does in a top 6 role would get 3 million plus in just about any free agent market.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Tigger

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 6368
  • You can play
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2011, 12:14:07 AM »

Pretty tough, after the spending frenzy we just saw, to say that a versatile 25 year old 20 goal scorer is overpaid at three million per.

I wouldn't say that was the case when Toronto traded for him and Armstrong was characterized as 'slightly' over paid at the time though now looks better some too, in spite of injuries... Coupled with a bad back VerIety's versatility relegates him to a third line role on a cup winning team and at that price he still seems like a bit of a luxury to me.

I don't think his versatility "relegates" him to anything. His versatility allows him to be effective on the third line as well as in a top 6 role. Armstrong, as a guy who's pretty strictly a bottom six guy, may be a little overpaid at 3 per. A guy who can produce what Versteeg does in a top 6 role would get 3 million plus in just about any free agent market.

Well that's what he was in Chicago, Toronto and Philly, a third liner. When I say 'relegates' I say it with past humble hopes that he could have been more in Toronto but from his play that's what he was and is, though with a bit of upside but not a lot and with some issues. Versteeg was one of Chicago's qualification snafu's, IIRC, he never should have been making that money that early. Maybe as an ufa two years from now we could really equate his contract in a current market but I don't see it quite so comparable as a properly qualified rfa signed to a 3 year deal 2 years ago. I mean a 26 year old General bested his 3 year old career year by 9 points and got a paltry 170k more in this market.

Would you say Florida is the real winner here?
"My father was born shortly after the Wright Brothers" Charlie Duke

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21713
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2011, 09:11:07 AM »
Well that's what he was in Chicago, Toronto and Philly, a third liner.

That's just not true. He was used in a variety of roles in both Toronto and Chicago. In Chicago he  spent the majority of his rookie season on a line with Jonathan Toews and either Byfuglien or Kane and responded with a pretty un-third line like 53 points. Same in Toronto where, if memory serves, he was second on the team in ice time among forwards at the time of his trade and was again producing, being on pace for 54 points.

He's good enough defensively that he can be effective in a third line role and every time he's been used in a more prominent role he's produced accordingly. A young, consistent twenty goal scorer is going to get three million dollars without that versatility.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 09:27:35 AM by Nikolas Nikleby »
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Green Leaf

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
  • Gender: Male
  • We Are Everyday Builders
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2011, 09:24:08 AM »
Looks like he's still impressing people with his size and speed like he did all of us. Then they watched him play for a season and wondered where the rest of his game is.

wait they haven't seen him fight yet...  ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVHD7ROhsNI

All jokes aside.. I think he's going to be a great player for them for the price he signed for.

Offline Tigger

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 6368
  • You can play
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2011, 07:07:49 PM »
Well that's what he was in Chicago, Toronto and Philly, a third liner.

That's just not true. He was used in a variety of roles in both Toronto and Chicago. In Chicago he  spent the majority of his rookie season on a line with Jonathan Toews and either Byfuglien or Kane and responded with a pretty un-third line like 53 points. Same in Toronto where, if memory serves, he was second on the team in ice time among forwards at the time of his trade and was again producing, being on pace for 54 points.

He's good enough defensively that he can be effective in a third line role and every time he's been used in a more prominent role he's produced accordingly. A young, consistent twenty goal scorer is going to get three million dollars without that versatility.

A variety of roles, sure but how successful after that first season and the emergence of some back issues later?... if he were more the type of player you're suggesting I'm not sure Burke trades him. I'm not saying he isn't versatile just not really good enough to be considered much more.

That 3 mil you're using in today's market context is not what I was talking about and I think you know that. We have a player who had no arbitration rights when the deal was signed and yet got a deal 6 times what would have been his qualifying offer ( which was screwed up by Chicago management and not sent in a timely manner giving him ufa status and grieved by the NHLPA ) He wouldn't have received near that if not for the error, Tallon had to 'get'r done' as it were...

Something else to consider, in today's market Philly traded a 1st and 3rd to TO for him then took a 2nd and 3rd to get rid of him ( 4 teams in 3 years says something to me too ).

I said he was a slightly over priced 3rd liner... with a bit of upside, not sure where the real argument is here. He was 7th in toi in the playoffs among forwards for Philly last year, when he went over I recall noting several times in the Versteeg thread that he was getting third line minutes with them too. During the year Chicago won the cup he was 7th in toi among forwards during the regular season ( with Dustin B listed as a dman ) but was 6th in toi among forwards during the playoffs so that's something ( though I suspect that was mostly due to Brouwers personal issues at the end of the season that saw him miss significant time while a healthy scratch during the playoffs too... he was ahead of Kris in toi for the regular season that year )

Agree to disagree.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 07:11:01 PM by Tigger »
"My father was born shortly after the Wright Brothers" Charlie Duke

Offline cw

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 3167
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2011, 07:44:30 PM »
( 4 teams in 3 years says something to me too ).

Doesn't smell good, that's for sure.

I didn't care for the Stalberg deal (realizing Stalberg may not pan out at the time). I didn't care for Versteeg when he was here. I didn't care for what he did for Philly. But I love the fact that Burke got a 1st and a 3rd back effectively for what I feel and the multiple trades suggest was a mistake.

I don't dislike the guy though I haven't warmed up to his personality and he left me wondering if he was a "team player". He's far from a terrible hockey player. He helped Chicago win a Cup. I just never felt he was what our roster needed - we had lots of little guys with some skill. Nor did I think he was worth the price paid nor a great value for the dough he was being paid.

At the end of it all, to get a 1st and 3rd back for Stalberg and a couple of prospects unlikely to ever make the NHL - that's not a terrible return. Neither sets of assets come with a guarantee.

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21713
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2011, 07:52:31 PM »
A variety of roles, sure but how successful after that first season and the emergence of some back issues later?... if he were more the type of player you're suggesting I'm not sure Burke trades him. I'm not saying he isn't versatile just not really good enough to be considered much more.

Successful enough, again, to be scoring at a 54 point pace while on a Toronto team where he wasn't playing with anything close to the sort of players he was playing with in a similar role in Chicago. When he's been a "third line" player in Chicago and in Philly he's been a third liner who scores at a 20 goal clip. So he's been a pretty remarkable offensive presence on a third line when used there and a very competent top six player when used there as well. My membership in the Brian Burke Am Never Wrong club is safe here, these are just facts.

That 3 mil you're using in today's market context is not what I was talking about and I think you know that. We have a player who had no arbitration rights when the deal was signed and yet got a deal 6 times what would have been his qualifying offer ( which was screwed up by Chicago management and not sent in a timely manner giving him ufa status and grieved by the NHLPA ) He wouldn't have received near that if not for the error, Tallon had to 'get'r done' as it were...

I think there's really only two ways in which a player can be over paid. Either he gets more money than he would on any sort of market(RFA or UFA) or the salary he signed for in years past isn't proportional to the value he brings a team. Neither apply to  Versteeg. There is no way that a player who produces at his level would ever realistically be signed for less and a third liner who scores 20 goals/top six forward who scores 55 points is, at least in my mind, worth three million dollars.

Something else to consider, in today's market Philly traded a 1st and 3rd to TO for him then took a 2nd and 3rd to get rid of him ( 4 teams in 3 years says something to me too ).

He's been on two teams that were in pretty bad cap situations and another that was mid-collapse. Did Chicago trade him? Sure. They also traded Andrew Ladd and Dustin Byfuglien. Did Philly trade him? Yes, as well as Jeff Carter and Mike Richards.

You could just as easily flip that around and say that in those three years Brian Burke, Paul Holmgren and Dale Tallon have all thought he'd be a good addition to their club and then got very good returns for him. While it's true that Florida took a seemingly less attractive package for him than they paid for the picks they got, when added together, may end up being just as good a package. A early second and early third vs. a late first and late third.

I said he was a slightly over priced 3rd liner... with a bit of upside, not sure where the real argument is here.

Because, by the same sort of description, I could call Jeff Carter a #2 centre or Patrice Bergeron a 3rd liner and leave out the actual positives of their play. Yes, on teams with exceptional forward depth Kris Versteeg can play a third line role because of his versatility and be very, very effective. How many third liners score 20 goals and 45 points regularly?
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Tigger

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 6368
  • You can play
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2011, 07:58:51 PM »
( 4 teams in 3 years says something to me too ).

Doesn't smell good, that's for sure.

I didn't care for the Stalberg deal (realizing Stalberg may not pan out at the time). I didn't care for Versteeg when he was here. I didn't care for what he did for Philly. But I love the fact that Burke got a 1st and a 3rd back effectively for what I feel and the multiple trades suggest was a mistake.

I don't dislike the guy though I haven't warmed up to his personality and he left me wondering if he was a "team player". He's far from a terrible hockey player. He helped Chicago win a Cup. I just never felt he was what our roster needed - we had lots of little guys with some skill. Nor did I think he was worth the price paid nor a great value for the dough he was being paid.

At the end of it all, to get a 1st and 3rd back for Stalberg and a couple of prospects unlikely to ever make the NHL - that's not a terrible return. Neither sets of assets come with a guarantee.

Burke is a GM who seems bound to fix his mistakes and even admit to them sometimes which is something I like about him.

Found this earlier too...

The Kopecky-Versteeg-Bolland line began the game against the Flyers' top line of Simon Gagne, Jeff Carter and Mike Richards. But it wasn't until Versteeg tied the game at 4 in the second period, a goal he assisted on with Duncan Keith, that Kopecky settled down, he said.

"I was a little nervous the first couple shifts, but we stuck with it, and the nervousness came down a little bit," Kopecky said. "When Steeger got that goal, everything was kind of back to normal. You just can't think, you just have to go out there and react. That's when you're comfortable."

With the Hawks' top line of Jonathan Toews, Patrick Kane and Dustin Byfuglien uncharacteristically dormant, the second and third lines' play was critical.

"The third-line guys clamped down and got us back to what makes us a good team, checking first and battling out there," Sharp said. "When Kopy scored that goal, I thought we played our best hockey going forward."


He did contribute to a cup winning team and hooked up with his old buddy Tallon so I wish him well, Florida seems like a nice place to make millions playing a game.



"My father was born shortly after the Wright Brothers" Charlie Duke

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21713
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2011, 08:05:03 PM »

"The third-line guys clamped down and got us back to what makes us a good team, checking first and battling out there," Sharp said. "When Kopy scored that goal, I thought we played our best hockey going forward."


Maybe that's the disagreement right there in a nutshell. You seem entirely focused on the fact that Kris Versteeg has played on the third line of some stacked teams, making him a "third liner", while I'm inclined to read that as someone saying that Kris Versteeg's play on the third line was integral to his team winning a cup.

Either way, I'm certainly glad we don't have a player like that on the Leafs.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 08:13:01 PM by Saint Nik »
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline cw

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 3167
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2011, 08:17:38 PM »

"The third-line guys clamped down and got us back to what makes us a good team, checking first and battling out there," Sharp said. "When Kopy scored that goal, I thought we played our best hockey going forward."


I bet I can find some quotes from 09-10 referring to Tim Thomas as Boston's backup too.

He effectively finished as a 3rd liner here after getting shots in the top 6. And he was definitely a 3rd liner in Philly. Now with Florida's weak/questionable roster, maybe he can find a spot in the top 6 and stick.

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21713
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2011, 08:22:21 PM »
He effectively finished as a 3rd liner here after getting shots in the top 6. And he was definitely a 3rd liner in Philly. Now with Florida's weak/questionable roster, maybe he can find a spot in the top 6 and stick.

I changed that post because I didn't especially want to dwell there but, sure, to the extent that "third liner" is a dismissive label regardless of a player's abilities and contributions in that role or the circumstances that find them in that role, then sure. I'm not disputing Kris Versteeg has played on a third line. My point is that it's because he's as versatile as he is that he can be used in that role and still be effective and that's evidence of his value.

Cole Hamels is a #3 starter, Dwyane Wade is a #2 scoring option, Steve Young was a back-up QB.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

TMLfans.ca

Re: ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2011, 08:22:21 PM »