Author Topic: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"  (Read 4642 times)

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Offline Sarge

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2012, 08:52:46 PM »
Ulmer is a "complete stooge" and "dumb" because he disagrees with the Hockey News? I see.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2012, 08:55:34 PM »
Ulmer is a "complete stooge" and "dumb" because he disagrees with the Hockey News? I see.

No, he's a complete stooge for saying there's not a case to be made for Horton, which is dumb. Like I said, favor Salming if you're inclined but the evidence tilts Horton's way, not Salming's.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2012, 09:02:20 PM »

No, he's a complete stooge for saying there's not a case to be made for Horton, which is dumb. Like I said, favor Salming if you're inclined but the evidence tilts Horton's way, not Salming's.

It tilts Horton's way because he won championships surrounded by more talent in a 6 team league?

I mean, take what he wrote in the article;

"His career plus minus of 181 is nearly twice that of the runner-up, Mats Sundin. Salming was plus 40 in his rookie season with the Leafs.

Salming’s 620 assists is the Leafs best. He is third in games in 1,099, 88 games shy of George Armstrong’s team leading 1,187."

How can Horton compete with that? - No disrespect to Horton intended. 

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2012, 09:17:07 PM »
It tilts Horton's way because he won championships surrounded by more talent in a 6 team league?

Championships, First Team All-Star selections, tasty snack making. They all lean Horton's way.

I mean, take what he wrote in the article;

"His career plus minus of 181 is nearly twice that of the runner-up, Mats Sundin. Salming was plus 40 in his rookie season with the Leafs.

Plus minus, as a statistic, didn't exist for most of when Horton played. HockeyReference, which has Salming at +175, has Horton at +81 when he was 38-44.

Salming’s 620 assists is the Leafs best.

Horton was a stay-at-home defenseman. Maybe the best ever and played in an era where defensemen didn't rush the puck. It's apples and oranges. Even then, Tim Horton probably had the best offensive playoffs a Leafs defenseman ever had in 61-62, scoring 16 points in 12 games.

He is third in games in 1,099, 88 games shy of George Armstrong’s team leading 1,187."

Huh. So the list goes:

1. George Armstrong
2.
3. Borje Salming.

Who do you suppose is #2 on that list? I'll give you three guesses but I'm betting you'll get it in one.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 09:18:51 PM by Nik V. Debs »
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2012, 09:25:47 PM »

1. George Armstrong
2.
3. Borje Salming.

Who do you suppose is #2 on that list? I'll give you three guesses but I'm betting you'll get it in one.

Well, okay but outside of tasty treats, I'm not sure there's much of a case for Horton. I mean again, we're talking about a 6 team league here when we're talking Horton's accolades. Everything Salming accomplished was in a larger league surrounded by less talent. It's really just a universe of difference there. Now don't get me wrong, Horton was a fine player and like I said earlier, there's probably a few choices than can be made for the "greatest" and far be it from me to tell folks what/how to think. This is just an opinion here that I happen to share with Ulmer. - A good read for anyone interested.       

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2012, 09:36:49 PM »
Well, okay but outside of tasty treats, I'm not sure there's much of a case for Horton.

Championships, first-team all star selections, Games Played, the opinion of the Hockey News...There's a lot there.

I mean again, we're talking about a 6 team league here when we're talking Horton's accolades.

But that doesn't make it easier. Talent is more concentrated in a 6 team league, not less. We're going to give Salming more credit because he got to beat up on the Kansas City Scouts while Horton had real games night-in and night-out? Let's not forget that Salming's best years came during a era where the talent was diluted in the NHL not just because of expansion but also because of the WHA. After the WHA folded Salming was a cumulative -11 for the rest of his career.

edit: just looking at it, it's astonishing how much the league expanded and so quickly. The league Salming joined had gone from 6 teams to 16 teams in just seven years. By the time Salming established himself the number of teams in the league had tripled from '67 in just 9 years.

It's really just a universe of difference there. Now don't get me wrong, Horton was a fine player and like I said earlier, there's probably a few choices than can be made for the "greatest" and far be it from me to tell folks what/how to think. This is just an opinion here that I happen to share with Ulmer. - A good read for anyone interested.       

Like I said, if someone wants to say that Salming is their choice for the best Leafs defenseman of all time in spite of the evidence against it...go nuts. Just don't try and sell that there's no debate on the matter.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 09:42:48 PM by Nik V. Debs »
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Potvin29

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2012, 09:49:03 PM »
No Potvin, no credibility.  ;D

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2012, 09:59:28 PM »
As far as I'm concerned there's a few guys I wouldn't consider as wrong answers for the greatest Leaf ever but yesterday, Mike Ulmer made a case for my guy, Borje Salming;

http://blog.mapleleafs.com/salming-could-be-best-leaf-ever/

Also, and I missed this myself, but this isn't written by Mike Ulmer. It's attributed to someone named Matt Iaboni.

So apologies Mr. Wilner, it's Mr. Iaboni who sounds like a complete stooge.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Potvin29

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2012, 10:12:55 PM »
As far as I'm concerned there's a few guys I wouldn't consider as wrong answers for the greatest Leaf ever but yesterday, Mike Ulmer made a case for my guy, Borje Salming;

http://blog.mapleleafs.com/salming-could-be-best-leaf-ever/

Also, and I missed this myself, but this isn't written by Mike Ulmer. It's attributed to someone named Matt Iaboni.

So apologies Mr. Wilner, it's Mr. Iaboni who sounds like a complete stooge.

Tough day for Ulmer here!

Offline Sarge

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2012, 11:08:20 PM »
LOL. I missed it too. Anyway, still a good read.

Offline jdh1

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2012, 09:36:54 AM »
Tim Horton in his day was always considered at the top of NHL defencemen ...comparing with the best of the Habs defencemen who were Toronto's biggest and best rivals.

Offline RobDM

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2012, 09:37:03 AM »
As far as I'm concerned there's a few guys I wouldn't consider as wrong answers for the greatest Leaf ever but yesterday, Mike Ulmer made a case for my guy, Borje Salming;

http://blog.mapleleafs.com/salming-could-be-best-leaf-ever/

Also, and I missed this myself, but this isn't written by Mike Ulmer. It's attributed to someone named Matt Iaboni.

So apologies Mr. Wilner, it's Mr. Iaboni who sounds like a complete stooge.

Matt sent a tweet this morning saying that the article was incorrectly credited, it was in fact Mike Ulmer who wrote the piece.


@mattiaboni "@arrrlittle wish i could say it was me but that was Mike Ulmer (@mulmer)."

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2012, 10:29:35 AM »

Boy, between incorrectly attributed articles, my inability to get names right within the same post and tweets today it's very difficult to keep track of who I'm calling a stooge.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Boston Leaf

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2012, 10:34:11 AM »
I guess I can only go by who I have seen

1. Salming
2. Sundin
3. Sittler
4. Keon
5. Mahovlich
6. Ellis
7. Clark
8. Gilmour
9. Vaive
10. MacDonald

Offline Corn Flake

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Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2012, 01:01:52 PM »
Had a very hard time trying to conjure up a top 10 list but IMO, #1 is

Teeder Kennedy. 

5 cups, hart trophy, entire career with the Leafs... don't know how that doesn't win.


TMLfans.ca

Re: Top 10 "Greatest Leafs of All-Time"
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2012, 01:01:52 PM »