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Maple Leafs News and Views => Leafs Media Rumours => Topic started by: Screwball on May 06, 2012, 01:48:26 PM

Title: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Screwball on May 06, 2012, 01:48:26 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=395223

Quote
Rick Dudley is expected to become the next assistant general manager of the Montreal Canadiens. However, the move from Toronto to Montreal is complicated.

Maple Leafs GM Brian Burke and newly appointed Canadiens GM Marc Bergevin are in discussions over Dudley's jump from one team to the other.

Dudley, a member of Toronto's management team, has an "out" in his contract with the Leafs, but has done extensive work for Toronto on the upcoming NHL Draft and sources say Burke would prefer Dudley not join the Canadiens until after the Draft.

Well, this is an unfortunate situation for the Leafs to be in.  Even if they get their wish and keep Rick until after the draft, you could question where his heart will be in terms of releasing all of his info.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 06, 2012, 05:44:55 PM
Similar situation happened to Chiarelli in Boston. He had to wait a little bit after July 1st before he could have moved from Ottawa to Boston. Still, I'm sure he made it known that he wanted the Bruins to peruse Chara heavily on July 1st.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 06, 2012, 05:51:21 PM
Even if they get their wish and keep Rick until after the draft, you could question where his heart will be in terms of releasing all of his info.

I would imagine a lot of his work has already been recorded and everything. But the biggest thing would be that he keeps Toronto's interests quiet. Montreal drafts just ahead of the Leafs in every round they still have their original picks in, so I'm sure Burke wouldn't be pleased if the Habs just happened to always select players he had his eye on.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: the dingo ate my baby on May 07, 2012, 08:07:52 AM
Even if they get their wish and keep Rick until after the draft, you could question where his heart will be in terms of releasing all of his info.

I would imagine a lot of his work has already been recorded and everything. But the biggest thing would be that he keeps Toronto's interests quiet. Montreal drafts just ahead of the Leafs in every round they still have their original picks in, so I'm sure Burke wouldn't be pleased if the Habs just happened to always select players he had his eye on.

Yeah this.  It's less that the Leafs need him and more that the Leafs need him to be quiet.  Personally, I don't think Dudley should be relied on for anything at this point.  It's not that I think he'll be anything less than professional heading into his departure, but I'd just rather him be on the shelf until after the draft.

Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: cw on May 07, 2012, 08:57:59 AM
In a somewhat similar situation, Peter Chiarelli of the Sens started working for the Bruins in mid July of 2006, after the draft and after the first couple of weeks of free agency - even though he was named the Bruins GM in the previous month of May.

That's what I would hope Burke would arrange here.

I think Dudley's a pretty good hockey exec and would not be surprised to see him as a GM again one day.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Sarge on May 07, 2012, 12:00:52 PM
While I understand that the league has outlawed compensation for executive moves I'm curious if the talks between Burke and Bergevin might result in a trade anyway. I mean, hypothetically speaking, let's say the Leafs trade the #5 pick and a prospect the the Canadians for the #3 pick and a prospect. The onus would then be on the league to prove that the prospects involved don't balance out the swap in picks and I'm not sure they would be able too assuming the there wasn't something obviously fishy there. Or, let's say, the Habs traded the negotiating rights to I don't know, Travis Moen to the Leafs for a 7th round pick or a prospect with next to no chance of making the NHL (which might be close to the right price anyway.) Basically, I'm wondering if the dialogue between the two GMs could spin into something that the league would have a difficult time proving was compensation rather than just standard hockey trade.           
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on May 07, 2012, 05:08:27 PM
He was always going to be a short term employee anyway. But I'm with Carlton, he better keep his mouth shut until after the draft and free agency.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Zee on May 08, 2012, 09:04:37 AM
He was always going to be a short term employee anyway. But I'm with Carlton, he better keep his mouth shut until after the draft and free agency.

I don't know, Habs would have their own scouting team in place and a list of players they're already targeting for each round.  Unless Dudley comes in and totally changes their mind on the type of player they want, he won't influence the Habs draft that much.  They should know who they want at this point.  Also, it's tough for him to "keep his mouth shut", sure he might not *say* anything about who the Leafs want, but if there's an attractive player that the Leafs are targeting and is flying under the radar so to speak, there's nothing stopping him from mentioning that player to the Habs team if they know nothing about him.  Again though, unless he does an incredible selling job, the Habs team would have already decided what type of player they want.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: the dingo ate my baby on May 08, 2012, 09:14:47 AM
He was always going to be a short term employee anyway. But I'm with Carlton, he better keep his mouth shut until after the draft and free agency.

I don't know, Habs would have their own scouting team in place and a list of players they're already targeting for each round.  Unless Dudley comes in and totally changes their mind on the type of player they want, he won't influence the Habs draft that much.  They should know who they want at this point.  Also, it's tough for him to "keep his mouth shut", sure he might not *say* anything about who the Leafs want, but if there's an attractive player that the Leafs are targeting and is flying under the radar so to speak, there's nothing stopping him from mentioning that player to the Habs team if they know nothing about him.  Again though, unless he does an incredible selling job, the Habs team would have already decided what type of player they want.

If he's be coming in as an assistant GM, his opinion would clearly be valued within the organization.  I would think he could definitely change gears for the Habs if he wanted to, unless the the potential draftees he liked were "Leaf need" specific fits.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Zee on May 08, 2012, 09:20:09 AM
He was always going to be a short term employee anyway. But I'm with Carlton, he better keep his mouth shut until after the draft and free agency.

I don't know, Habs would have their own scouting team in place and a list of players they're already targeting for each round.  Unless Dudley comes in and totally changes their mind on the type of player they want, he won't influence the Habs draft that much.  They should know who they want at this point.  Also, it's tough for him to "keep his mouth shut", sure he might not *say* anything about who the Leafs want, but if there's an attractive player that the Leafs are targeting and is flying under the radar so to speak, there's nothing stopping him from mentioning that player to the Habs team if they know nothing about him.  Again though, unless he does an incredible selling job, the Habs team would have already decided what type of player they want.

If he's be coming in as an assistant GM, his opinion would clearly be valued within the organization.  I would think he could definitely change gears for the Habs if he wanted to, unless the the potential draftees he liked were "Leaf need" specific fits.

At this point teams would have their own list and have done TONS of work preparing for the draft.  They're not going to throw out their entire strategy because Dudley comes in and says so.  In any event they're picking 3rd and Leafs 5th, they have their first pick already decided, nothing the Leafs can do anyway.  After the first round it's a crap shoot of selecting players.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Sarge on May 08, 2012, 09:22:50 AM
He was always going to be a short term employee anyway. But I'm with Carlton, he better keep his mouth shut until after the draft and free agency.

I don't know, Habs would have their own scouting team in place and a list of players they're already targeting for each round.  Unless Dudley comes in and totally changes their mind on the type of player they want, he won't influence the Habs draft that much.  They should know who they want at this point.  Also, it's tough for him to "keep his mouth shut", sure he might not *say* anything about who the Leafs want, but if there's an attractive player that the Leafs are targeting and is flying under the radar so to speak, there's nothing stopping him from mentioning that player to the Habs team if they know nothing about him.  Again though, unless he does an incredible selling job, the Habs team would have already decided what type of player they want.

If he's be coming in as an assistant GM, his opinion would clearly be valued within the organization.  I would think he could definitely change gears for the Habs if he wanted to, unless the the potential draftees he liked were "Leaf need" specific fits.

At this point teams would have their own list and have done TONS of work preparing for the draft.  They're not going to throw out their entire strategy because Dudley comes in and says so.  In any event they're picking 3rd and Leafs 5th, they have their first pick already decided, nothing the Leafs can do anyway.  After the first round it's a crap shoot of selecting players.

The problem is that the Habs would really have the benefit of selecting players in all 7 rounds with the resources from two scouting departments.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Zee on May 08, 2012, 09:37:59 AM
He was always going to be a short term employee anyway. But I'm with Carlton, he better keep his mouth shut until after the draft and free agency.

I don't know, Habs would have their own scouting team in place and a list of players they're already targeting for each round.  Unless Dudley comes in and totally changes their mind on the type of player they want, he won't influence the Habs draft that much.  They should know who they want at this point.  Also, it's tough for him to "keep his mouth shut", sure he might not *say* anything about who the Leafs want, but if there's an attractive player that the Leafs are targeting and is flying under the radar so to speak, there's nothing stopping him from mentioning that player to the Habs team if they know nothing about him.  Again though, unless he does an incredible selling job, the Habs team would have already decided what type of player they want.

If he's be coming in as an assistant GM, his opinion would clearly be valued within the organization.  I would think he could definitely change gears for the Habs if he wanted to, unless the the potential draftees he liked were "Leaf need" specific fits.

At this point teams would have their own list and have done TONS of work preparing for the draft.  They're not going to throw out their entire strategy because Dudley comes in and says so.  In any event they're picking 3rd and Leafs 5th, they have their first pick already decided, nothing the Leafs can do anyway.  After the first round it's a crap shoot of selecting players.

The problem is that the Habs would really have the benefit of selecting players in all 7 rounds with the resources from two scouting departments.

Given the Leafs drafting history, I would think Dudley would throw out our sheet once he got to Montreal.  ;)
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Corn Flake on May 08, 2012, 09:44:06 AM
In a somewhat similar situation, Peter Chiarelli of the Sens started working for the Bruins in mid July of 2006, after the draft and after the first couple of weeks of free agency - even though he was named the Bruins GM in the previous month of May.

That's what I would hope Burke would arrange here.

I think Dudley's a pretty good hockey exec and would not be surprised to see him as a GM again one day.

I would hope for something similar as well.  Letting Dudley walk to the Habs right now would be a terrible choice, both for the Leafs losing someone they have leaned on heavily to prepare for a very critical draft and off-season and to let him go to a division rival drafting 2 spots ahead of us, along with any strategy or secrets Burke has around who he wants to pick, to move up down or otherwise, etc. 

IMO it would be the worst decision made as GM to let this happen right now. 
Title: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Deebo on May 08, 2012, 11:47:18 AM
In a somewhat similar situation, Peter Chiarelli of the Sens started working for the Bruins in mid July of 2006, after the draft and after the first couple of weeks of free agency - even though he was named the Bruins GM in the previous month of May.

That's what I would hope Burke would arrange here.

I think Dudley's a pretty good hockey exec and would not be surprised to see him as a GM again one day.

I would hope for something similar as well.  Letting Dudley walk to the Habs right now would be a terrible choice, both for the Leafs losing someone they have leaned on heavily to prepare for a very critical draft and off-season and to let him go to a division rival drafting 2 spots ahead of us, along with any strategy or secrets Burke has around who he wants to pick, to move up down or otherwise, etc. 

IMO it would be the worst decision made as GM to let this happen right now.

If dudley's contract has an out clause, then its not really burke's decision,
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Corn Flake on May 08, 2012, 12:35:43 PM
If dudley's contract has an out clause, then its not really burke's decision,

True, assuming it's a generic clause he can use any time.  Probably isn't though.

Also, even if there is a full out clause, Bergevin might want to play nice with Burke anyway and not start his tenure by stealing an Exec from a rival at this most critical juncture.  Might be why so far there is only talk between the two GM's and Dudley doesn't have an offer from Mtl yet.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Etiam Vultus on May 08, 2012, 02:58:22 PM
There are rumblings that Dudley's contract allows him to accept a new job after the Leafs season is over by giving 30 days notice.  It is impossible to tell how accurate this is, but assuming it is true then there is nothing Burke can do to stop Dudley from starting with Montreal prior to the draft.

It is interesting to note that Chicago is in a similar position, with Bergevin leaving a key position to join the Habs.  It is expected that the Black Hawks, Leafs and others will push for changes so that a key manager is not allowed to join a new team between the end of the season and the start of free agency on July 1. 

Even if that does come to pass, it would not affect the situation with Dudley.  If he leaves to join Montreal before the amateur draft, I suggest that we just grin and bear it and give him a nice parting gift; perhaps something like a 245 pound right hand defenseman with a cap hit of $4.5 million for the next two years. ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: moon111 on May 09, 2012, 07:58:17 PM
To be fair, I think Montreal and Toronto should switch draft positions.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Zee on May 10, 2012, 08:58:04 AM
There are rumblings that Dudley's contract allows him to accept a new job after the Leafs season is over by giving 30 days notice.  It is impossible to tell how accurate this is, but assuming it is true then there is nothing Burke can do to stop Dudley from starting with Montreal prior to the draft.

It is interesting to note that Chicago is in a similar position, with Bergevin leaving a key position to join the Habs.  It is expected that the Black Hawks, Leafs and others will push for changes so that a key manager is not allowed to join a new team between the end of the season and the start of free agency on July 1. 

Even if that does come to pass, it would not affect the situation with Dudley.  If he leaves to join Montreal before the amateur draft, I suggest that we just grin and bear it and give him a nice parting gift; perhaps something like a 245 pound right hand defenseman with a cap hit of $4.5 million for the next two years. ;) ;) ;)

Don't the Leafs have to give permission for the HAbs to offer Dudley a contract though?  As far as I've heard this past weekend, Dudley said he hasn't been contacted by the Habs.  Just don't give the Habs permission until a few days before the draft. Then Dudley has his 30 days notice which passes draft day.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Etiam Vultus on May 10, 2012, 01:00:18 PM
There are rumblings that Dudley's contract allows him to accept a new job after the Leafs season is over by giving 30 days notice.  It is impossible to tell how accurate this is, but assuming it is true then there is nothing Burke can do to stop Dudley from starting with Montreal prior to the draft.

It is interesting to note that Chicago is in a similar position, with Bergevin leaving a key position to join the Habs.  It is expected that the Black Hawks, Leafs and others will push for changes so that a key manager is not allowed to join a new team between the end of the season and the start of free agency on July 1. 

Even if that does come to pass, it would not affect the situation with Dudley.  If he leaves to join Montreal before the amateur draft, I suggest that we just grin and bear it and give him a nice parting gift; perhaps something like a 245 pound right hand defenseman with a cap hit of $4.5 million for the next two years. ;) ;) ;)

Don't the Leafs have to give permission for the HAbs to offer Dudley a contract though?  As far as I've heard this past weekend, Dudley said he hasn't been contacted by the Habs.  Just don't give the Habs permission until a few days before the draft. Then Dudley has his 30 days notice which passes draft day.

As a courtesy, the Habs should give the Leafs notice that they plan to contact Dudley.  I don't think that they need the Leafs actual permission, since that would negate Dudley's right to take a new job.

I took Dudley's comments that he had not been contacted yet by the Habs with a large truckload of salt.  It reminded me of the free agents who sign a new contracts one minute after the free agency period begins and we are expected to believe that their new teams were not in touch with them and their agents until just then.

FWIW, the Leafs and Habs cannot switch draft positions since there is a league rule that there is no compensation when an executive moves from one team to another.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: bustaheims on May 10, 2012, 01:32:03 PM
As a courtesy, the Habs should give the Leafs notice that they plan to contact Dudley.  I don't think that they need the Leafs actual permission, since that would negate Dudley's right to take a new job.

Until such time as Dudley gives his notice and the 30 day period after that has passed, he is under contract to the Toronto Maple Leafs, and any other organization requires their permission to approach him and offer him a position. It's not a courtesy, it's the rules. Going around those rules is considered tampering.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Corn Flake on May 10, 2012, 01:54:29 PM
We are told Burke and Bergevin are talking.   Dudley said a week ago he hadn't been offered anything, yet which also seems to suggest the Habs don't have permission yet.

The fact nothing has happened yet suggests everyone is playing nice here and/or maybe Burke is trying to do something to keep Dudley on board.  If Burke was going to let him go, it probably would have been done by now.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Etiam Vultus on May 10, 2012, 02:04:27 PM
As a courtesy, the Habs should give the Leafs notice that they plan to contact Dudley.  I don't think that they need the Leafs actual permission, since that would negate Dudley's right to take a new job.

Until such time as Dudley gives his notice and the 30 day period after that has passed, he is under contract to the Toronto Maple Leafs, and any other organization requires their permission to approach him and offer him a position. It's not a courtesy, it's the rules. Going around those rules is considered tampering.

Are these rules written down?

This is different from player's contracts.  This is an executive.  If Bell wants to hire a Rogers executive, they do not need to ask Rogers permission before they speak to him or her.  They DO need to make sure that there is no contractual provision that the individual cannot make the move.

If Dudley's contract permits him to take a job with another club, then it makes no sense that the Leafs can thwart the intent of that clause by refusing to grant permission for the other club to speak to him. 
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: bustaheims on May 10, 2012, 02:07:42 PM
Are these rules written down?

Yes. They're part of the various agreements NHL teams have with the league, etc. I'm pretty sure it's even written into the individual contracts. There's a reason teams are constantly asking for permission to talk to and/or hire members of other teams' front offices - they have to. Teams will often dent other teams that permission, even in some seemingly ridiculous circumstances. It happened to the Leafs a few years ago when Florida wouldn't let Nieuwendyk go until the day his contract officially expired.

As for Dudley's contract, I doubt it specifically states he can take a job with another team. What it allows is a period where he can terminate the contract with the Leafs. Until he does that (which, as far as we know, he has not), he's bound by all the terms of the contract - which includes not taking a job with another NHL team.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Etiam Vultus on May 10, 2012, 02:26:03 PM
I would be surprised if Dudley's contract does not explicitly state that he is permitted to discuss a more senior position with another team and to accept such a position, provided it complies with certain time constraints, e.g. 30 days following the end of the season.

It is quite common for employment contracts to have an out clause if there is the opportunity for advancement.  Dudley has been the GM of four NHL teams.  He is underemployed in his current role with the Leafs.  With as much experience as Dudley has with contracts, it would be amazing if he had not included a provision in his own contract that gives him the freedom to accept a better job. 
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Corn Flake on May 10, 2012, 02:41:50 PM
I would be surprised if Dudley's contract does not explicitly state that he is permitted to discuss a more senior position with another team and to accept such a position, provided it complies with certain time constraints, e.g. 30 days following the end of the season.

It is quite common for employment contracts to have an out clause if there is the opportunity for advancement.  Dudley has been the GM of four NHL teams.  He is underemployed in his current role with the Leafs.  With as much experience as Dudley has with contracts, it would be amazing if he had not included a provision in his own contract that gives him the freedom to accept a better job.

Teams don't usually ever stand in the way of this type of thing but there is always the "ask permission" part.. you can't have an exec talking to teams whenever he feels like it.  Given the timing, division, draft situations and Dudley's role in the latter, this one is pretty sensitive.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 10, 2012, 03:12:26 PM
It is quite common for employment contracts to have an out clause if there is the opportunity for advancement.  Dudley has been the GM of four NHL teams.  He is underemployed in his current role with the Leafs.  With as much experience as Dudley has with contracts, it would be amazing if he had not included a provision in his own contract that gives him the freedom to accept a better job.

I think there's a difference here, though, in that he's moving from a position with the Leafs to take a secondary role with another team. When Nieuwendyk was poached to run the Stars there seemed to be quite a bit less of an issue because there was no denying that being the #1 guy in Dallas is more than he was here.

But in this case? These jobs don't have definitions that are universal and I don't know if it's fair to assume that there's necessarily a clear promotion involved in going from being a director of player-personnel to being an AGM somewhere else. To get a sense of that you have to know what the management structure is like in both places and what someone's day to day responsibilities are.

Personally, I think it's nuts. The Canadiens are a rival within the division. They're drafting ahead of the Leafs in what's a very important draft for both teams. I'd personally hope that, if nothing else, this changes the contracts that the club gives to executives.

Personally, I think letting an executive out of his contract to seek advancement elsewhere makes as much sense as letting a player do the same.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on May 10, 2012, 06:16:56 PM
It is quite common for employment contracts to have an out clause if there is the opportunity for advancement.  Dudley has been the GM of four NHL teams.  He is underemployed in his current role with the Leafs.  With as much experience as Dudley has with contracts, it would be amazing if he had not included a provision in his own contract that gives him the freedom to accept a better job.

I think there's a difference here, though, in that he's moving from a position with the Leafs to take a secondary role with another team. When Nieuwendyk was poached to run the Stars there seemed to be quite a bit less of an issue because there was no denying that being the #1 guy in Dallas is more than he was here.

But in this case? These jobs don't have definitions that are universal and I don't know if it's fair to assume that there's necessarily a clear promotion involved in going from being a director of player-personnel to being an AGM somewhere else. To get a sense of that you have to know what the management structure is like in both places and what someone's day to day responsibilities are.

Personally, I think it's nuts. The Canadiens are a rival within the division. They're drafting ahead of the Leafs in what's a very important draft for both teams. I'd personally hope that, if nothing else, this changes the contracts that the club gives to executives.

Personally, I think letting an executive out of his contract to seek advancement elsewhere makes as much sense as letting a player do the same.

Are their contracts timed based, or are they more of a general "You have this position until you quit or are fired" type of contract?
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Etiam Vultus on May 10, 2012, 07:05:27 PM
1)  I believe that all contracts for front office staff and coaches are time based for a specific number of years.

2)  Contracts for head coaches and general managers generally do not include an out clause.

3)  It is different for assistant coaches and other front office staff, and for very good reasons.  Their contracts may or may not include an out clause, but there is also a general practice to at least consider a request to allow an employee to leave before his contract is finished.  Think about it.  Would you want to hire someone who has no potential for a promotion, or would you rather hire someone who has the ability and the desire to move up?  If it is the latter, then you have to be prepared to accept the fact that some will move on.

4)  There are limits to how and when an employee under contract can move to a new team.  It would be rare to permit a move during the season.  (Obviously this does not apply to a coach who has been fired and is being paid, but not working.)  It is also uncommon to facilitate lateral moves.  Typically, an employee will be permitted to move if it is a promotion and happens during the off-season.

5)  It is common for the team who is looking to hire to ask permission of the employee's current employer.  In many cases, it is mandatory.  For example, the Leafs had to receive permission from the Ducks to talk to Carlyle because he was still under contract.  The Ducks could have refused.  In another situation, e.g. the team seeking permission was fighting for a playoff spot with the Ducks, the permission could have been refused.

6)  It is not certain whether the Habs had to ask the Leafs for permission to talk to Dudley.  Based on Dudley's past experience and the fact that it is believed he had an out clause, it is doubtful that the Leafs could have refused a request that occurred during the off-season and within the terms of Dudley's contract.

7)  Dudley is NOT required to  give 30 days notice that he is quitting his job and then start looking for a new one.  He could start looking for another job after the season was over and leave 30 days later, but he is not obligated to leave if he does not find a better opportunity.

8)  Brian Burke has his faults, but it is clear that he has a very high moral code.  He has stated on numerous occasions that he expects to lose some of his front office staff to more senior positions with other teams.  He has also made it clear that he does not see that as a problem, but an advantage.  In his words, it gives the Leafs a strong friend in another organization to facilitate trades, share information, etc.  Burke's criticism of Kevin Lowe for tendering an offer sheet to Dustin Penner was not because the offer was made, but because it was made without any attempt to contact the Ducks and try to work out a trade beforehand.  Note that Burke reacquired a Leafs draft choice so that he would have been in a position to offer sheet Kessel if necessary, but his first choice was to work out a trade with Boston.  Burke's self-imposed trade embargo around Christmas may or may not be good for the team, but it is because of a genuine concern about the welfare of players and their families.  I do not believe that Burke would prevent any of his employees from advancing, but he would expect the new team to be reasonable, just as he would be.  Given the history and profile of Toronto and Montreal, I expect that something will be worked out that is fair to everyone.

Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: moon111 on May 10, 2012, 08:48:40 PM
There are rumblings that Dudley's contract allows him to accept a new job after the Leafs season is over by giving 30 days notice.  It is impossible to tell how accurate this is, but assuming it is true then there is nothing Burke can do to stop Dudley from starting with Montreal prior to the draft.

It is interesting to note that Chicago is in a similar position, with Bergevin leaving a key position to join the Habs.  It is expected that the Black Hawks, Leafs and others will push for changes so that a key manager is not allowed to join a new team between the end of the season and the start of free agency on July 1. 

Even if that does come to pass, it would not affect the situation with Dudley.  If he leaves to join Montreal before the amateur draft, I suggest that we just grin and bear it and give him a nice parting gift; perhaps something like a 245 pound right hand defenseman with a cap hit of $4.5 million for the next two years. ;) ;) ;)

Don't the Leafs have to give permission for the HAbs to offer Dudley a contract though?  As far as I've heard this past weekend, Dudley said he hasn't been contacted by the Habs.  Just don't give the Habs permission until a few days before the draft. Then Dudley has his 30 days notice which passes draft day.

As a courtesy, the Habs should give the Leafs notice that they plan to contact Dudley.  I don't think that they need the Leafs actual permission, since that would negate Dudley's right to take a new job.

I took Dudley's comments that he had not been contacted yet by the Habs with a large truckload of salt.  It reminded me of the free agents who sign a new contracts one minute after the free agency period begins and we are expected to believe that their new teams were not in touch with them and their agents until just then.

FWIW, the Leafs and Habs cannot switch draft positions since there is a league rule that there is no compensation when an executive moves from one team to another.
Hence why Komisarek is getting thrown in the deal.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 10, 2012, 09:16:10 PM
Think about it.  Would you want to hire someone who has no potential for a promotion, or would you rather hire someone who has the ability and the desire to move up?  If it is the latter, then you have to be prepared to accept the fact that some will move on.

I don't think this makes a lot of sense. Yes, as an organization, you should want to hire people who have the capability and the drive to advance. But that doesn't mean you should serve as a training ground for other organizations. Much like executives, the Leafs should want to sign players who will eventually be more than what they currently are but that doesn't mean that, once those players advance, the Leafs should just let them walk away from contracts they signed if they think a better opportunity presents itself elsewhere.

This isn't a situation where someone has put in a bunch of years and stands no chance of advancement. Dudley has worked for the team for less than a year. If he leaves now, he essentially wouldn't have been with the team for even a single draft.

How does that make sense for the leafs to hire people with a specialty in player development and scouting and then essentially not benefit from that. More to the point, how is it even remotely possible that the work that Dudley has done this year while in the employ of the Leafs with regards to amateur players wouldn't influence what he did in Montreal? If Dudley goes to Montreal before the draft and offers them his opinion on amateur players then even if he doesn't tip the Leafs hands the end result for the Leafs will be that they paid for the Montreal Canadiens to do some scouting.

Non-compete clauses exist in other businesses. They haven't ruined companies that have them because they're still offering highly sought after jobs and compensating their employees well. An argument could be made that if someone puts in many years with an organization and adds to their success over those years that you should let them out of a deal to pursue other opportunities elsewhere but this isn't that.

Players, executives, it doesn't matter. If someone signs a contract they have a responsibility to see it through, not jump ship the second a better opportunity presents itself elsewhere.

Enforcing those contracts should be an industry standard or, at the very least, a team like the Maple Leafs should be able to protect themselves from being directly and negatively impacted by their employees jumping ship to a rival just before the most crucial point in a front office's season.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: TML fan on May 10, 2012, 10:19:30 PM
Couldn't Dudley just quit, and then sign on with Montreal? I'm not sure how that works in this case.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Guru Tugginmypuddah on May 10, 2012, 10:43:15 PM
Couldn't Dudley just quit, and then sign on with Montreal? I'm not sure how that works in this case.

No, he still has a contract with Toronto.  He can't just quit and get another job tomorrow, this isn't Tim Horton's Vs. McDonald's.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: bustaheims on May 11, 2012, 01:25:36 AM
Couldn't Dudley just quit, and then sign on with Montreal? I'm not sure how that works in this case.

That's sort of what his out-clause is, though, being that none of us know the specifics of it, it's hard to say for certain. Based on my understanding of things, he can give notice and, after a 30 day period, he's free to sign on wherever. Now, being that Dudley wants to continue to work in the NHL and is an honourable person, he's not going to just leave the Leafs in the lurch and bolt to a rival organization at such a sensitive time in the year, which is why we are where we are with all of this.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Etiam Vultus on May 12, 2012, 02:10:28 PM

Yes, as an organization, you should want to hire people who have the capability and the drive to advance. But that doesn't mean you should serve as a training ground for other organizations.

There are two issues here.

Organization charts are a triangle - the higher you go in the organization, the less space there is.  Thus, if you fill as many places on your organization chart as you can with people with the potential to move up, some of them are going to have to leave the organization to reach their full potential.  Dallas Eakins is a case in point.  When Ron Wilson was fired, Burke chose to hire Randy Carlyle.  Dallas Eakins was an option, but at the time he had zero experience in the playoffs as a head coach.  Thus, Burke went with the candidate with a Stanley Cup ring as a head coach.  In an interview, though, Burke said that he believed Dallas Eakins would be an excellent NHL head coach some day, but he may have to leave the Leafs to have that opportunity.  Similarly, Burke has said that he believes that Nonis, Polin Loiselle, and Dudley all have potential for more senior positions and he expects that some of them will leave for a better position.

With Dudley, it is hard to argue that the Leafs developed him.  He has been a GM for four NHL teams already!  He became unexpectedly unemployed when the Thrashers were sold and moved to Winnipeg and the new owners wanted a different front office.  He joined the Leafs just prior to the 2011 draft.  (Did anyone on this site suggest that this was unfair to Winnipeg?)  At the time, it was pretty clear that Dudley was underemployed in the position that he was taking with the Leafs, but it was a good short term solution for him to stay active and for the Leafs to benefit from his expertise.  None of us know the details of his current contract or the nature of his proposed position with the Habs, but it seems logical that he would have an out clause and it appears that he would be second-in-command in Montreal, when he is clearly not that with the Leafs.

I wish Dudley well in Montreal, finishing just behind the Leafs every year.  I think that there is enough professionalism in both organizations that Dudley will make the transfer on good terms.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Tigger on May 12, 2012, 02:25:40 PM
It also seems logical that the Leafs would be able to protect themselves from getting burned at the draft at the last minute by an employee, who was directly tied to that process, jumping ship.

How would it be unfair to Winnipeg, they let him go.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: bustaheims on May 12, 2012, 03:18:36 PM
He became unexpectedly unemployed when the Thrashers were sold and moved to Winnipeg and the new owners wanted a different front office.  He joined the Leafs just prior to the 2011 draft.  (Did anyone on this site suggest that this was unfair to Winnipeg?) 

There are a few significant differences between that situation and the situation at hand. Firstly, Dudley joined the Leafs at the draft - too late to really contribute to the scouting staffs' ranking process. The Leafs' list was already well established at that point, and, as he had previously been GM in Atlanta, he wouldn't have been that deeply involved in the scouting process (GMs tend to be heavily involved in 1st round guys and not so involved in the rest). With the Leafs, he's been heavily involved in the scouting process leading up to this draft. Secondly, Winnipeg's pick was before Toronto's in every round, so, even if Dudley had knowledge of Winnipeg's plans, passing them on to Toronto wouldn't have had an impact on the newly christened Jets. On top of that, I'm almost certain the Leafs and Jets came to an agreement that Dudley wouldn't influence the Leafs picks in that draft as part of Dudley's hiring process. Montreal, on the other hand, drafts 2 spots ahead of the Leafs in every round where they hold their own picks. And then, of course, there's the fact that Winnipeg removed Dudley from his position prior to the draft whereas the Leafs don't appear to have any intention of doing the same.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 13, 2012, 08:57:16 AM
Organization charts are a triangle - the higher you go in the organization, the less space there is.  Thus, if you fill as many places on your organization chart as you can with people with the potential to move up, some of them are going to have to leave the organization to reach their full potential.  Dallas Eakins is a case in point.  When Ron Wilson was fired, Burke chose to hire Randy Carlyle.  Dallas Eakins was an option, but at the time he had zero experience in the playoffs as a head coach.  Thus, Burke went with the candidate with a Stanley Cup ring as a head coach.  In an interview, though, Burke said that he believed Dallas Eakins would be an excellent NHL head coach some day, but he may have to leave the Leafs to have that opportunity.  Similarly, Burke has said that he believes that Nonis, Polin Loiselle, and Dudley all have potential for more senior positions and he expects that some of them will leave for a better position.

But you just illustrated the perfect example of the difference between how a guy in Eakins position might reasonably feel about his prospects for advancement and how Dudley should feel. Eakins has put in his time with the organization and, when there was an opportunity within the organization for advancement, he got passed over. If someone came calling with the offer of a better position in another organization, the Leafs should probably let him go because they didn't give him the chance to advance.

That's not the case with Dudley. He's put in less then one year. He hasn't been passed over for anything. There's a difference between there not being opportunity for advancement, which Eakins could legitimately claim, and there not being immediate advancement.

The Leafs, to be fair to their employees, should recognize the guys who've put in a lot of time for them and who they've promoted as far as they want in their organization and let them pursue opportunities elsewhere. That's simply not the case with Dudley. He's a newcomer who might very well move up in the organization if a guy like Nonis or Poulin get poached. The Leafs don't have an obligation to let guys out of their contracts because they aren't getting everything they want immediately.

With Dudley, it is hard to argue that the Leafs developed him.  He has been a GM for four NHL teams already!

That would be a valid argument if we were talking about development in the same context we talk about it in for a CHL player but what we're talking about is adapting anybody from outside of an organization to their role within a new organization. Every organization is going to have their different approaches and needs and philosophies. The way the Leafs have "developed" Dudley is in acclimating him to the needs and goals of the organization and, hopefully, giving him the resources to be the DPP that the organization would want.

Any front office personnel is going to have to be at their job for more than a year to have a significant impact. By going out and hiring someone new for the job next year they'll have to spend time getting that new guy up to speed and get him used to what Brian Burke wants and expects out of his organization.

It's not unreasonable for the Leafs to expect some sort of return on what they put into Rick Dudley, both from a financial standpoint and from a time standpoint.

He became unexpectedly unemployed when the Thrashers were sold and moved to Winnipeg and the new owners wanted a different front office.  He joined the Leafs just prior to the 2011 draft.  (Did anyone on this site suggest that this was unfair to Winnipeg?)

That doesn't make any sense. He was unemployed. If he was vital to Winnipeg's preparation for the draft in that franchise's POV he wouldn't have been unemployed. By making him unemployed, Winnipeg was inviting teams to hire the guy and reap the benefits of his knowledge.

I get that it would be a promotion for Dudley and, as a result, I understand why he'd want to take the job. But I also understand that if Tukka Rask went to the Boston Bruins and said he'd rather go elsewhere so he could start 65 games a year the Bruins would still put their own interests above the advancement of one of their employees and nobody would think that they were being unreasonable.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: L K on May 13, 2012, 09:38:10 AM
He became unexpectedly unemployed when the Thrashers were sold and moved to Winnipeg and the new owners wanted a different front office.  He joined the Leafs just prior to the 2011 draft.  (Did anyone on this site suggest that this was unfair to Winnipeg?) 

There are a few significant differences between that situation and the situation at hand. Firstly, Dudley joined the Leafs at the draft - too late to really contribute to the scouting staffs' ranking process. The Leafs' list was already well established at that point, and, as he had previously been GM in Atlanta, he wouldn't have been that deeply involved in the scouting process (GMs tend to be heavily involved in 1st round guys and not so involved in the rest). With the Leafs, he's been heavily involved in the scouting process leading up to this draft. Secondly, Winnipeg's pick was before Toronto's in every round, so, even if Dudley had knowledge of Winnipeg's plans, passing them on to Toronto wouldn't have had an impact on the newly christened Jets. On top of that, I'm almost certain the Leafs and Jets came to an agreement that Dudley wouldn't influence the Leafs picks in that draft as part of Dudley's hiring process. Montreal, on the other hand, drafts 2 spots ahead of the Leafs in every round where they hold their own picks. And then, of course, there's the fact that Winnipeg removed Dudley from his position prior to the draft whereas the Leafs don't appear to have any intention of doing the same.

Also there is that huge difference between being fired because Winnipeg wanted to hire the Manitoba Moose organization and Montreal trying to poach him to work in their organization.  Burke doesn't want Dudley to leave.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Zee on May 14, 2012, 09:25:30 AM
Draft day is June 22nd.  One more week or so and we're within the 30-day window he can give the Leafs to leave.  Hopefully he starts with the Habs after the draft day.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Guru Tugginmypuddah on May 14, 2012, 09:35:58 AM
Draft day is June 22nd.  One more week or so and we're within the 30-day window he can give the Leafs to leave.  Hopefully he starts with the Habs after the draft day.

I thought it was 30 days after the last regular season game?
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Zee on May 14, 2012, 09:41:25 AM
Draft day is June 22nd.  One more week or so and we're within the 30-day window he can give the Leafs to leave.  Hopefully he starts with the Habs after the draft day.

I thought it was 30 days after the last regular season game?

Damn, if that's the case then that sucks.  I thought it was just a 30-days notice type thing whenever he gives it.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: bustaheims on May 14, 2012, 10:53:15 AM
Draft day is June 22nd.  One more week or so and we're within the 30-day window he can give the Leafs to leave.  Hopefully he starts with the Habs after the draft day.

I thought it was 30 days after the last regular season game?

Damn, if that's the case then that sucks.  I thought it was just a 30-days notice type thing whenever he gives it.

No one outside of those in NHL front offices are really clear on what it is. All we know is that it doesn't appear as though he's exercised that clause . . . yet.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: bustaheims on May 14, 2012, 07:59:03 PM
TSNBobMcKenzie: If Rick Dudley leaves TOR for MTL, and it could happen by end of month, it would be conditional on him not being able to work draft for MTL.

TSNBobMcKenzie: In other words, pending successful negotiation of contract with MTL, Dudley has TOR's blessing to move as long as he isn't involved in draft
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Zee on May 15, 2012, 09:58:45 AM
TSNBobMcKenzie: If Rick Dudley leaves TOR for MTL, and it could happen by end of month, it would be conditional on him not being able to work draft for MTL.

TSNBobMcKenzie: In other words, pending successful negotiation of contract with MTL, Dudley has TOR's blessing to move as long as he isn't involved in draft

Good news.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: bustaheims on May 24, 2012, 11:10:37 AM
DarrenDreger: Rick Dudley's move from Toronto to Mtl likely before NHL Draft, but Dudley won't be allowed to work the event for the Habs.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: showmethemoneyman on May 24, 2012, 11:14:18 AM
Montreal apparently already has an assistant GM , I guess they forgot to fire him.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Sarge on May 24, 2012, 11:15:30 AM
Odd seeing as though he'll likely be able to offer up all he can leading up to the draft so really, what's the difference?
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Zee on May 24, 2012, 11:30:08 AM
All is quiet on this front, what the heck is going on?
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 24, 2012, 12:29:52 PM
Odd seeing as though he'll likely be able to offer up all he can leading up to the draft so really, what's the difference?

I would imagine that entails not being about to do any pre-draft work either.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Sarge on May 24, 2012, 12:32:06 PM
Odd seeing as though he'll likely be able to offer up all he can leading up to the draft so really, what's the difference?

I would imagine that entails not being about to do any pre-draft work either.

I thought of that but how would the even be policed? Its impossible. 
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 24, 2012, 12:35:40 PM
Odd seeing as though he'll likely be able to offer up all he can leading up to the draft so really, what's the difference?

I would imagine that entails not being about to do any pre-draft work either.

I thought of that but how would the even be policed? Its impossible. 

Maybe so, but it'd also be impossible really to police Dudley not being involved at the draft even if he isn't at the table. He's just a phone call/e-mail/text away still. I think this is all pretty much being policed by the honour system.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: bustaheims on May 24, 2012, 12:37:03 PM
I thought of that but how would the even be policed? Its impossible.

Well, he wouldn't be allowed to take any of the data he collected with him - so, any video he has, any scouting reports, any comparisons, etc, would be unavailable to him. He'd be relying purely on his own memory. Also, you know, the fact that Dudley's an honourable man and such. It's difficult to police, but, not impossible. He could "join" the Habs front office before the draft, but not actually start working for them until after.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Sarge on May 24, 2012, 12:39:30 PM
Odd seeing as though he'll likely be able to offer up all he can leading up to the draft so really, what's the difference?

I would imagine that entails not being about to do any pre-draft work either.

I thought of that but how would the even be policed? Its impossible. 

Maybe so, but it'd also be impossible really to police Dudley not being involved at the draft even if he isn't at the table. He's just a phone call/e-mail/text away still. I think this is all pretty much being policed by the honour system.

Yeah, I'm not sure I like that.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Sarge on May 24, 2012, 12:41:28 PM
He could "join" the Habs front office before the draft, but not actually start working for them until after.

Who would know if he did?
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: bustaheims on May 24, 2012, 12:42:25 PM
Who would know if he did?

People. There's always someone with loose lips. These things do get out.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 24, 2012, 12:44:32 PM
Who would know if he did?

People. There's always someone with loose lips. These things do get out.

And if they did, I'm sure the Leafs would have the right to request that Montreal be penalized.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 24, 2012, 12:45:27 PM
And if they did, I'm sure the Leafs would have the right to request that Montreal be penalized.

And if you're Montreal the risk there probably outweighs the reward of having Dudley around for the draft.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Sarge on May 24, 2012, 12:49:03 PM
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee220/Ein-7919/mr__horse-1.jpg)
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Corn Flake on May 24, 2012, 12:56:01 PM
I thought of that but how would the even be policed? Its impossible.

Well, he wouldn't be allowed to take any of the data he collected with him - so, any video he has, any scouting reports, any comparisons, etc, would be unavailable to him. He'd be relying purely on his own memory. Also, you know, the fact that Dudley's an honourable man and such. It's difficult to police, but, not impossible. He could "join" the Habs front office before the draft, but not actually start working for them until after.

No doubt in his and every other executive's contract in sports (and everywhere else for that matter) are very iron clad confidentiality clauses.  If they move on they are bound to not disclose any knowledge of their former employer and their plans.

If Dudley got caught breaking the confidentiality rules on something like this and they bury their chances of ever working in the league again. It's a tight knit group and he would be blackballed in a flash.  No to mention the mess the team would be in as well.

Honestly, I would have preferred that he was at the Leafs table contributing than this.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: L K on May 24, 2012, 05:34:42 PM
Yeah, this is nothing short of a big loss to the front office.
RE: Not being able to take date he collected...I'm sure he can't but it doesn't mean that he still has extensive knowledge of things and that a few select emails can be placed to "take a better look at" a certain player.  It would be hard to prove that it wasn't happening.
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Sarge on May 25, 2012, 12:11:47 PM
Time to move this out of the rumours section... It's official. Now we're short one Director of Player Personnel... I'm curious who'll step in (if anybody.) 
Title: Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on May 25, 2012, 12:47:40 PM
Time to move this out of the rumours section... It's official. Now we're short one Director of Player Personnel... I'm curious who'll step in (if anybody.)

Gear up, son. ;)