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Maple Leafs News and Views => Main Leafs Hockey Talk => Topic started by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on July 05, 2017, 07:49:24 PM

Title: Hyman Signed
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on July 05, 2017, 07:49:24 PM
4x2.25
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 05, 2017, 07:52:57 PM

Eh. Seems about right.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: lamajama on July 05, 2017, 07:57:47 PM
Wow. Seems pretty high to me.  I was thinking if a 4 year deal the next about 7 mil.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 05, 2017, 08:06:43 PM
Seems high, but I guess not by that much. Should have been under $2mil. Jesper Fast just signed for 3 years at $1.85mil with similar numbers but while not playing with anybody as good as Auston Matthews. I thought that would have been the ceiling for Hyman's contract.

I mean if Hyman becomes a consistent 30-ish point scorer while providing good defensive play, this contract is fine. But at the same time the only way he scores that much is if he plays with Matthews, and that can't continue.

I really just thought Lou could have done better than this. It's weird he can get Kadri signed to $4.5mil long-term but can't get Hyman under $2mil.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: bustaheims on July 05, 2017, 08:07:42 PM
Cap hit is probably pretty close to what he would have ended up with via arbitration, but, on a one or two year contract. So, this deal probably helps keep him affordable for longer.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 05, 2017, 08:09:27 PM
Cap hit is probably pretty close to what he would have ended up with via arbitration, but, on a one or two year contract. So, this deal probably helps keep him affordable for longer.

Is it? MLHS found a number of potential comparables for Hyman and they all came in under $2mil: https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2017/05/12/connor-brown-zach-hyman-going-make-next-contracts/
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Bullfrog on July 05, 2017, 08:14:09 PM
Seems high to me for someone I think is very easily replaceable.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: mr grieves on July 05, 2017, 08:22:59 PM
Well, he's ready to slot into Martin's place in year 3...

He's about $1m overpaid, I think. Weird, considering he had absolutely no leverage here.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: louisstamos on July 05, 2017, 08:24:45 PM
I guess this would technically be buying 2 of his first UFA years (he's 25 now, so he's eligible to be a UFA at 27).  But still...if that's what he's getting, Connor Brown is going to get PAAIIIIIIID!
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: L K on July 05, 2017, 08:26:06 PM
Auston Sundin already helping out his buddy Mikael Hyman
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: jdh1 on July 05, 2017, 08:42:00 PM
Hard to beat his work ethic and coming up with the puck behind the net.  If Auston likes him,that's important.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 05, 2017, 09:05:50 PM
That's Matt Martin money!

Connor Brown 2.75 coming right up?
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: KadriFan on July 05, 2017, 09:12:10 PM
That's Matt Martin money!

Connor Brown 2.75 coming right up?

I doubt you will get him for that. 
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: mr grieves on July 05, 2017, 09:36:15 PM
That's Matt Martin money!

Connor Brown 2.75 coming right up?

I doubt you will get him for that.

Is he arbitration eligible?
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: disco on July 05, 2017, 09:38:42 PM
That contract really broke through.

He's a useful player, it's not about the numbers for him. He goes in there and digs for all 82 games. If you think you're getting a useful player in this league for under $2-million AAV you're dreaming.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: AvroArrow on July 05, 2017, 09:46:17 PM
Wow, really thought he'd be in the 2M range... Guess those UFA years really cost them...
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: freer on July 05, 2017, 11:27:45 PM
2.25 million is not a bad price. He had good chemistry with AM.

6 + million for Marleau is too much IMO
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Zee on July 06, 2017, 06:55:47 AM
2.25 million is not a bad price. He had good chemistry with AM.

6 + million for Marleau is too much IMO
The S.H. Hyman set to sail again!

Hopefully his stone hands convert on a few more chances this season and he pushes into the 15-20 goal range.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: KadriFan on July 06, 2017, 07:47:22 AM
2.25 million is not a bad price. He had good chemistry with AM.

6 + million for Marleau is too much IMO
The S.H. Hyman set to sail again!

Hopefully his stone hands convert on a few more chances this season and he pushes into the 15-20 goal range.

I'll be happy if he plays exactly like he did last year.  The rest of the line can do the scoring. 
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 06, 2017, 08:22:08 AM
Until/unless a trade happens, we are all in agreement that Hyman is NOT one of our 6 best wingers, right? He's 100% on the 4th line as things stand right now.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Andy on July 06, 2017, 08:32:18 AM
Well it's not a huge number or anything but I really don't see him bringing anything more to the table than what you could get for someone as a cheap FA.

He would barely crack my starting lineup:

Marleau Matthews Nylander
Komarov Kadri  Marner
JVR Bozak Brown
Leivo Moore Hyman

And really, without the puzzling Martin over Leipsic decision, I'm not even sure I'd guarantee him that 12th spot with Leipsic in the mix.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Bullfrog on July 06, 2017, 08:35:03 AM
Until/unless a trade happens, we are all in agreement that Hyman is NOT one of our 6 best wingers, right? He's 100% on the 4th line as things stand right now.

I think we can agree on that.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 06, 2017, 08:54:36 AM
It just seems like such a strange move to re-sign someone to a long-term contract when he has only 1 season under his belt, and it was a season that saw him play a 5-on-5 role that he's not expected to remain in at any point in the future. What would have been the harm to sign him to a cheap 1-year contract and then re-evaluate him next summer? Would he have really earned a deal worth MORE than this after his point totals probably get cut in half-ish?
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 06, 2017, 09:00:50 AM
He's a useful player, it's not about the numbers for him. He goes in there and digs for all 82 games. If you think you're getting a useful player in this league for under $2-million AAV you're dreaming.

Dominic Moore probably does a lot of the same things Hyman does in terms of compete level, digging for pucks, and killing penalties. He also has the added benefit of being great at faceoffs. And he scored just 3 points less than Hyman did last season while playing 4th line minutes with guys like Riley Nash, Tim Schaller, Orlando Boyd, Noel Acciari, and Anton Blidh. Those guys are such unknown scrubs that you probably didn't even realize that I completely made one of those names up. And we signed him for only $1mil.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Bender on July 06, 2017, 09:14:08 AM
Until/unless a trade happens, we are all in agreement that Hyman is NOT one of our 6 best wingers, right? He's 100% on the 4th line as things stand right now.

I think we can agree on that.

Maybe they think he can chip in a few more but at the same time he was playing with the best rookie in hockey last season almost all year and converted 10 goals, and I'm sure the assists are inflated. I kind of wonder if he was a mirage player by playing with AM. I don't think that's really good value and quite the time commitment, but I hope I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Zee on July 06, 2017, 09:15:46 AM
He's a useful player, it's not about the numbers for him. He goes in there and digs for all 82 games. If you think you're getting a useful player in this league for under $2-million AAV you're dreaming.

Dominic Moore probably does a lot of the same things Hyman does in terms of compete level, digging for pucks, and killing penalties. He also has the added benefit of being great at faceoffs. And he scored just 3 points less than Hyman did last season while playing 4th line minutes with guys like Riley Nash, Tim Schaller, Orlando Boyd, Noel Acciari, and Anton Blidh. Those guys are such unknown scrubs that you probably didn't even realize that I completely made one of those names up. And we signed him for only $1mil.

When you put it that way, geez.  Great bargain on Moore compared to this Hyman contract.  Wonder where the need for a 4 year deal was coming from?  I know Babcock loves Hyman but c'mon, he's not irreplaceable.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 06, 2017, 09:19:08 AM
There's a chance Hyman's box stats gets a boost from playing against weaker competition if he's lower on the lineup. His 6% sh% is characteristically lower than his career would suggest. He had that explosive senior year with Michigan where he was probably in an overmatch position to succeed and did so.

The 2.25M for the prime years of a middle 6 winger that can play hard 5v5 and PK minutes and still chip in goals occasionally/accidentally in any lineup role is not entirely out to lunch. He's not getting paid by us again after this.

My hope is that Hyman supplants both Martin and Komarov as defensive good pro winger. One of those contracts on the team is good; three at the same time is stupid. Of the three, I'd rather it be Hyman.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: KadriFan on July 06, 2017, 09:31:38 AM
It's a shame Lou and Babcock aren't as good at their jobs as you guys.  Geez.... 
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Zee on July 06, 2017, 09:31:56 AM
There's a chance Hyman's box stats gets a boost from playing against weaker competition if he's lower on the lineup. His 6% sh% is characteristically lower than his career would suggest. He had that explosive senior year with Michigan where he was probably in an overmatch position to succeed and did so.


How do you conclude that 6% SH% is lower than his career would suggest?  He only had 16 other games before last season.  Maybe 6% is what he shoots?  (in 98 career games now he's 7.3%)
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Zee on July 06, 2017, 09:39:13 AM
It's a shame Lou and Babcock aren't as good at their jobs as you guys.  Geez....

Nothing wrong in questioning how a guy got as much money and term as he did.  Hyman isn't exactly a proven player, he's had 1 full season, played with the best player the organization has had in 20 years and only managed 10 goals.   I hazard to guess that someone like Kapanen could have produced way more had he been planted beside Matthews all year long.   Guys like Hyman actually do grow on trees.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 06, 2017, 09:41:54 AM
Ah, the old appeal to authority argument. Yes, Lou Lamoriello and Mike Babcock have literally never made a mistake before in their hockey careers. No hockey GM or coach ever has actually. Who am I to question them. My bad.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 06, 2017, 09:50:39 AM
How do you conclude that 6% SH% is lower than his career would suggest?  He only had 16 other games before last season.  Maybe 6% is what he shoots?  (in 98 career games now he's 7.3%)

Shooting league average would have earned him a whooping 2-3 extra goals this season.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 06, 2017, 09:56:16 AM
There's a chance Hyman's box stats gets a boost from playing against weaker competition if he's lower on the lineup. His 6% sh% is characteristically lower than his career would suggest. He had that explosive senior year with Michigan where he was probably in an overmatch position to succeed and did so.

How do you conclude that 6% SH% is lower than his career would suggest?  He only had 16 other games before last season.  Maybe 6% is what he shoots?  (in 98 career games now he's 7.3%)

He is shooting consistently from high danger areas, and really his only shooting problem was that he was too close at times, due to skating into the pile with his head down. I don't have corsica's numbers available now, but during the year, he was consistently underperforming his xGF.

When he was on the PK, he didn't go as deep, and in transition plays, he showed capable hands. I think he can be better when he's not playing a deferential top line role on his off wing with players that think faster than he does.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 06, 2017, 09:59:03 AM
So all I'm trying to say is, 2.25M for a middle six winger in his prime is a pretty good deal.

I think it looks like an overpay because we're carrying other baggage.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 06, 2017, 10:02:30 AM
So all I'm trying to say is, 2.25M for a middle six winger in his prime is a pretty good deal.

I think that calling him a middle six winger (which suggests he can be a 2nd liner) is still very, very much open to debate. Without Matthews, he could very well just be a (pretty good) 4th liner. And at best, I still think "bottom-6" is still his classifier.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Frank E on July 06, 2017, 10:07:04 AM
So all I'm trying to say is, 2.25M for a middle six winger in his prime is a pretty good deal.

I think that calling him a middle six winger (which suggests he can be a 2nd liner) is still very, very much open to debate. Without Matthews, he could very well just be a (pretty good) 4th liner.

You don't think he could replace Komarov?
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 06, 2017, 10:09:31 AM
So all I'm trying to say is, 2.25M for a middle six winger in his prime is a pretty good deal.

I think that calling him a middle six winger (which suggests he can be a 2nd liner) is still very, very much open to debate. Without Matthews, he could very well just be a (pretty good) 4th liner.

I'd say he's an exceptional 4th, but has the tools to move up the line up (and trust of the coach, which we are bound to for a good stretch). He played fairly well in a sheltered scoring line with Nylander for the last chunk of that lost season, and didn't get snowed under playing 1st line (but didn't really produce either). Defensive conscience of a 2nd line isn't out of the question, in my mind.

Either way, he's not going to be the prime scoring option, but he's also not going to be a liability.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 06, 2017, 10:12:31 AM
We're at 48/50 SPCs before Brown signs. I'm pretty sure we're going to shed some roster spots.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 06, 2017, 10:25:40 AM
https://theleafsnation.com/2017/07/06/paying-the-small-price-for-utility/

Convergent evolution towards the same discussion.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 06, 2017, 10:26:40 AM
There's a chance Hyman's box stats gets a boost from playing against weaker competition if he's lower on the lineup. His 6% sh% is characteristically lower than his career would suggest. He had that explosive senior year with Michigan where he was probably in an overmatch position to succeed and did so.

How do you conclude that 6% SH% is lower than his career would suggest?  He only had 16 other games before last season.  Maybe 6% is what he shoots?  (in 98 career games now he's 7.3%)

He is shooting consistently from high danger areas, and really his only shooting problem was that he was too close at times, due to skating into the pile with his head down. I don't have corsica's numbers available now, but during the year, he was consistently underperforming his xGF.

When he was on the PK, he didn't go as deep, and in transition plays, he showed capable hands. I think he can be better when he's not playing a deferential top line role on his off wing with players that think faster than he does.

I'm wondering if this is the primary reason they want him.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Zee on July 06, 2017, 10:27:37 AM
We're at 48/50 SPCs before Brown signs. I'm pretty sure we're going to shed some roster spots.

Still waiting on the JVR/Komarov shoe to drop in a trade.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 06, 2017, 10:30:22 AM
Two things about this deal that make me not dislike it as much as some:

1. Try to look at it removed from the current context of the Leafs having way too many forwards than there are roster spots. Yes, right now it looks like 2.25 million for what might be the 5th or 6th best option at LW on the team but what will the team probably look like in that third year?

X-Matthews-Marner
X-Kadri-Brown
X-Nylander-Kapanen
X-X-X

The team is probably moving on from Komarov and JVR and Marleau probably won't be around. The team doesn't have much in the way of surefire LW prospects and they probably won't have the money to go out and spend on Marleau the way they did this year. So Hyman, as someone who you can put on a scoring line as a bit of a defensive conscience or a shutdown line, could be pretty useful in trying to cobble together 4 decent LW.

2. Being as the team may be moving on from a lot of guys who are well regarded veterans in the near future there may be an intangible benefit in keeping a bunch of the guys who came up together all relatively happy with their deals and together. Given the difference between what Hyman got and what would be a number I don't think anyone would side-eye is relatively small it seems like something not worth exaggerating.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on July 06, 2017, 11:49:13 AM
I thought this was an excellent breakdown of the deal.

https://theleafsnation.com/2017/07/06/paying-the-small-price-for-utility/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: mr grieves on July 06, 2017, 01:34:43 PM
There's a chance Hyman's box stats gets a boost from playing against weaker competition if he's lower on the lineup. His 6% sh% is characteristically lower than his career would suggest. He had that explosive senior year with Michigan where he was probably in an overmatch position to succeed and did so.

How do you conclude that 6% SH% is lower than his career would suggest?  He only had 16 other games before last season.  Maybe 6% is what he shoots?  (in 98 career games now he's 7.3%)

He is shooting consistently from high danger areas, and really his only shooting problem was that he was too close at times, due to skating into the pile with his head down. I don't have corsica's numbers available now, but during the year, he was consistently underperforming his xGF.

When he was on the PK, he didn't go as deep, and in transition plays, he showed capable hands. I think he can be better when he's not playing a deferential top line role on his off wing with players that think faster than he does.

I remember seeing those xGF numbers too. And I've certainly picked out guys I liked and credited them with the goals they "earned" but didn't, y'know, actually score (just luck). But isn't it also possible that a player underperforming his xGF means he just might not have an NHL-calibre shot?
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 06, 2017, 01:39:30 PM
I remember seeing those xGF numbers too. And I've certainly picked out guys I liked and credited them with the goals they "earned" but didn't, y'know, actually score (just luck). But isn't it also possible that a player underperforming his xGF means he just might not have an NHL-calibre shot?

You don't need an NHL-calibre shot to score if you consistently park your butt in the right spots (see Kadri). Like I said in the bolded part, his problem was simply being in too tight and not being ready for passes from hockey savants.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: KadriFan on July 06, 2017, 02:39:59 PM
It's a shame Lou and Babcock aren't as good at their jobs as you guys.  Geez....

Nothing wrong in questioning how a guy got as much money and term as he did.  Hyman isn't exactly a proven player, he's had 1 full season, played with the best player the organization has had in 20 years and only managed 10 goals.   I hazard to guess that someone like Kapanen could have produced way more had he been planted beside Matthews all year long.   Guys like Hyman actually do grow on trees.

It's not always about goals and assists.  I'm not so sure players like Hyman do grow on trees.  guys who play hard every shift and win those little battles in places many tend to shy away from are quite rare.  Many are saying his production is due to playing with Matthews.  I wonder what Matthews would say.  Personally I think him, Matthews and nylander make the perfect line.  Each brings something different and it all fits together perfectly. 
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 06, 2017, 02:51:23 PM
guys who play hard every shift and win those little battles in places many tend to shy away from are quite rare.

Nah. You can recognize the value of a good grinder while still acknowledging that they're available every year as UFA's. Look at the swapping out of Boyle, who's like that, for Moore, who's also like that.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 06, 2017, 02:56:25 PM
https://theleafsnation.com/2017/07/06/why-you-shouldnt-be-too-worried-about-zach-hymans-scoring-touch/

Jeff, are you reading this thread?

Thanks for doing the data scrape for me.

(https://theleafsnation.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2017/07/hymandistance1.png?w=1024)
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: KadriFan on July 06, 2017, 03:00:48 PM
guys who play hard every shift and win those little battles in places many tend to shy away from are quite rare.

Nah. You can recognize the value of a good grinder while still acknowledging that they're available every year as UFA's. Look at the swapping out of Boyle, who's like that, for Moore, who's also like that.

And every line needs one. that guy who does what it takes to get the stars the puck.  Love Hyman...good signing. 
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: TimKerr on July 06, 2017, 03:09:43 PM
guys who play hard every shift and win those little battles in places many tend to shy away from are quite rare.

Nah. You can recognize the value of a good grinder while still acknowledging that they're available every year as UFA's. Look at the swapping out of Boyle, who's like that, for Moore, who's also like that.

And every line needs one. that guy who does what it takes to get the stars the puck.  Love Hyman...good signing.

So you'd rather have Hyman on that line with Matthews and Nylander than Marleau?
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 06, 2017, 03:15:38 PM
And every line needs one. that guy who does what it takes to get the stars the puck. 

Nah. Most teams in the league get by just fine without an offensively limited grinder on their top line. Stars, as a general rule, tend to be pretty good at getting the puck themselves.

Heck, look no further than the Bozak line last year.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: KadriFan on July 06, 2017, 03:25:43 PM
guys who play hard every shift and win those little battles in places many tend to shy away from are quite rare.

Nah. You can recognize the value of a good grinder while still acknowledging that they're available every year as UFA's. Look at the swapping out of Boyle, who's like that, for Moore, who's also like that.

And every line needs one. that guy who does what it takes to get the stars the puck.  Love Hyman...good signing.

So you'd rather have Hyman on that line with Matthews and Nylander than Marleau?

If it's not broke why fix it.  That line did pretty well last season. Will be interesting to see what Babcock wants. I think JVR or Komerov gets traded and Marleau takes that spot. Like everyone else though I'm guessing
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: KadriFan on July 06, 2017, 03:27:34 PM
And every line needs one. that guy who does what it takes to get the stars the puck. 

Nah. Most teams in the league get by just fine without an offensively limited grinder on their top line. Stars, as a general rule, tend to be pretty good at getting the puck themselves.

Heck, look no further than the Bozak line last year.

I guess we will just have to wait and see what Babcock decides. 
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Bender on July 06, 2017, 03:31:24 PM
guys who play hard every shift and win those little battles in places many tend to shy away from are quite rare.

Nah. You can recognize the value of a good grinder while still acknowledging that they're available every year as UFA's. Look at the swapping out of Boyle, who's like that, for Moore, who's also like that.

And every line needs one. that guy who does what it takes to get the stars the puck.  Love Hyman...good signing.

So you'd rather have Hyman on that line with Matthews and Nylander than Marleau?

If it's not broke why fix it.  That line did pretty well last season. Will be interesting to see what Babcock wants. I think JVR or Komerov gets traded and Marleau takes that spot. Like everyone else though I'm guessing

I think 10 goals on a top line is broke.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: KadriFan on July 06, 2017, 03:38:34 PM
guys who play hard every shift and win those little battles in places many tend to shy away from are quite rare.

Nah. You can recognize the value of a good grinder while still acknowledging that they're available every year as UFA's. Look at the swapping out of Boyle, who's like that, for Moore, who's also like that.

And every line needs one. that guy who does what it takes to get the stars the puck.  Love Hyman...good signing.

So you'd rather have Hyman on that line with Matthews and Nylander than Marleau?

If it's not broke why fix it.  That line did pretty well last season. Will be interesting to see what Babcock wants. I think JVR or Komerov gets traded and Marleau takes that spot. Like everyone else though I'm guessing

I think 10 goals on a top line is broke.

Goal scoring won't be a problem either way
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 06, 2017, 04:12:45 PM
And every line needs one. that guy who does what it takes to get the stars the puck. 

Nah. Most teams in the league get by just fine without an offensively limited grinder on their top line. Stars, as a general rule, tend to be pretty good at getting the puck themselves.

Heck, look no further than the Bozak line last year.

I guess we will just have to wait and see what Babcock decides.

Nah. I don't really think I need to wait for Babcock's input on whether or not Saad-Toews-Hossa was a successful line.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: KadriFan on July 06, 2017, 04:29:15 PM
And every line needs one. that guy who does what it takes to get the stars the puck. 

Nah. Most teams in the league get by just fine without an offensively limited grinder on their top line. Stars, as a general rule, tend to be pretty good at getting the puck themselves.

Heck, look no further than the Bozak line last year.

I guess we will just have to wait and see what Babcock decides.

Nah. I don't really think I need to wait for Babcock's input on whether or not Saad-Toews-Hossa was a successful line.

Well I doubt Babcock cares one way or the other wether they played well together.  Like I said, we will have to wait to see who he puts on his top line. 
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 06, 2017, 04:56:18 PM
Well I doubt Babcock cares one way or the other wether they played well together. 

Suggesting that Babcock doesn't care about how really successful teams are put together feels like a harsher indictment of him and his decision making than the mere suggestion that he's capable of making bad decisions.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Bill_Berg on July 06, 2017, 08:31:23 PM
I have my doubts that Hyman will be on the top line next year. I bet he got that contract because Babcock likes him and he's a good utility type player that kills penalties and can be fit in up and down the line up. Sure there are others like him, but I doubt the ones at prime age sign for much less than Hyman did. I'm fine with the signing overall.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: freer on July 06, 2017, 11:50:03 PM
I have my doubts that Hyman will be on the top line next year. I bet he got that contract because Babcock likes him and he's a good utility type player that kills penalties and can be fit in up and down the line up. Sure there are others like him, but I doubt the ones at prime age sign for much less than Hyman did. I'm fine with the signing overall.

Finally someone agrees...
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 07, 2017, 10:29:09 AM

huh
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Bill_Berg on July 07, 2017, 10:34:46 AM
Does every contract have a NTC or NMC in it now? Sheesh.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Zee on July 07, 2017, 11:09:02 AM

huh

They'd have to fire Babcock before they trade Hyman.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 07, 2017, 11:19:04 AM
Pretty standard practice for buying up UFA years.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 07, 2017, 11:25:19 AM
Pretty standard practice for buying up UFA years.

Going back to the 14/15 season and looking ahead to all future signed contracts, he's the only non-veteran (under 30) player to have some sort of NTC that I can find with a cap hit below $3mil. This is not standard practice for guys like him.

edit: I meant forward. Karl Alzner had one (a 5-team no trade list) in the 4th year of his 4-year contract that just expired.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 07, 2017, 12:09:25 PM
https://theathletic.com/73678/2017/07/07/mirtle-yes-zach-hyman-is-now-a-core-piece-for-the-maple-leafs/

The m-NTC is a sign of his value to the team, whether that is erroneous or not. It's a weird profile of player to consider core, but if the alternative is considering Komarov or Martin core, then eh. I'd say Hyman is part of the hard outer shell of the core. Not outright expendable, but if another team really wanted what he was offering for a strong offer, we'd let him be on his merry way.

I like Mirtle's comparison of Hyman to Winnik. A younger, faster, probably more offensively skilled, possession-driving glue guy. If he had been revealed earlier, I'm pretty certain we wouldn't have bothered with pursuing Martin.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 07, 2017, 12:10:13 PM
Pretty standard practice for buying up UFA years.

Going back to the 14/15 season and looking ahead to all future signed contracts, he's the only non-veteran (under 30) player to have some sort of NTC that I can find with a cap hit below $3mil. This is not standard practice for guys like him.

edit: I meant forward. Karl Alzner had one (a 5-team no trade list) in the 4th year of his 4-year contract that just expired.

You're right. I was thinking of more well compensated players, JvR being the immediate example.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Bullfrog on July 07, 2017, 12:40:19 PM
https://theathletic.com/73678/2017/07/07/mirtle-yes-zach-hyman-is-now-a-core-piece-for-the-maple-leafs/

The m-NTC is a sign of his value to the team, whether that is erroneous or not. It's a weird profile of player to consider core, but if the alternative is considering Komarov or Martin core, then eh. I'd say Hyman is part of the hard outer shell of the core. Not outright expendable, but if another team really wanted what he was offering for a strong offer, we'd let him be on his merry way.

I like Mirtle's comparison of Hyman to Winnik. A younger, faster, probably more offensively skilled, possession-driving glue guy. If he had been revealed earlier, I'm pretty certain we wouldn't have bothered with pursuing Martin.

I'm not so sure about that. Small sample of course, but Hyman and Winnik's career ppg are essentially identical. I also don't think Hyman's emergence -- if you can call it that -- would have had any bearing on signing Martin. Martin was never moving off the 4th line and doesn't see a second of PP or SH time.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 07, 2017, 12:54:37 PM
I like Mirtle's comparison of Hyman to Winnik. A younger, faster, probably more offensively skilled, possession-driving glue guy.

I'm not so sure about that. Small sample of course, but Hyman and Winnik's career ppg are essentially identical.

Last season a 31-year old Daniel Winnik put up 25 points in 72 games (0.34 PPG) while playing with Jay Beagle and Tom Wilson. Hyman scored at that exact same pace with Matthews and Nylander/Brown.

Winnik's a UFA and could probably be signed for $1-1.5mil.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on July 07, 2017, 12:58:26 PM
I'm not so sure about that. Small sample of course, but Hyman and Winnik's career ppg are essentially identical. I also don't think Hyman's emergence -- if you can call it that -- would have had any bearing on signing Martin. Martin was never moving off the 4th line and doesn't see a second of PP or SH time.

Babcock tried Martin out on the PK early on (he's big, and can skate, why not?) and quickly nixed that idea.

As Mirtle (and Jeff Veillette) indicated in their respective articles, we're at the ground floor of Hyman's NHL career. Komarov's contract looked terrible for his numbers initially, but he outperformed his valuation pretty much right away starting at an older age. I'm no scout or whatever, but I see room for growth with the tools at hand and enough runway to actually achieve it.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Highlander on July 07, 2017, 04:51:35 PM
best trade ever? or just a good one, Greg Beer Can McKegg for Zach the Ferrat Hyman. And I mean that with all affection. Zack is a digger and they are good ones despite the stone hands.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on October 02, 2017, 09:29:24 AM
https://theathletic.com/113938/2017/10/02/mirtle-why-zach-hyman-will-likely-score-more-for-the-leafs-this-season/

Hyman cut his left hand fairly badly on Gallagher's visor during their tussle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRKPPDLljr0). Fighting is stupid.

The rest of the article makes the argument that I already made in this thread.

Quote
JVR agreed that he and Hyman should have more conversations about [how to position himself to shoot in tight on the goal more successfully].

I maintain that a JvR-Hyman would be nearly the ultimate winger, and if they can both push each other it'd be madness to have two of them*.

* Hyman will never be as good as JvR on offense, and JvR will never be as good as Hyman on the backcheck/forecheck/midcheck/checkers.

---

Is Zach Hyman herman's new Seth Griffith? News a 6.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 02, 2017, 09:51:16 AM
Is Zach Hyman herman's new Seth Griffith? News a 6.

Today on the McLaughlin Group: Is Matt Martin Mike Babcock's Seth Griffith?
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: mr grieves on October 02, 2017, 01:00:06 PM
https://theathletic.com/113938/2017/10/02/mirtle-why-zach-hyman-will-likely-score-more-for-the-leafs-this-season/

Hyman cut his left hand fairly badly on Gallagher's visor during their tussle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRKPPDLljr0). Fighting is stupid.

The rest of the article makes the argument that I already made in this thread.

It's also not exactly Mirtle's best work. The article's got a nice mix of narrative, interviews, and data -- but I think the most likely explanation for the "something weird was going on" is toward the end of the article:

Quote
Either there hasn't been a player quite like Hyman in recent league history one able to generate a pile of quality chances from in tight but not convert on them or he is due for some level of an improvement. How big that bump is remains to be seen.

Has there been a guy without an NHL scorer's hands playing with two superstars for an entire season? Guys like that tend, I'd think, to find their way to the bottom of the lineup -- Hyman hasn't.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on October 02, 2017, 04:53:26 PM
Invalid Tweet ID
Babcock declared today that Hyman was the best forechecker in the NHL.
Per the tweet above, it's not showing up in the Passing Project data (shot-assists, i.e. passes that lead to shots). This is pretty similar to the tweets a couple of weeks ago about Matthews'/Hyman's Loose Puck Recovery stats (that aren't publicly available).

Having watched most of the games last season, I know why it's not showing up, and I don't have a problem with it.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: mr grieves on October 02, 2017, 07:27:51 PM
Having watched most of the games last season, I know why it's not showing up, and I don't have a problem with it.

Recency bias.

That line ended strong. Matthews-Hyman-Brown/Nylander at even strength was pretty up and down and had a pretty rough stretch between the all-star break and last few weeks of the season.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on October 08, 2017, 04:27:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrCHPDgO5Pc

So... that was something. Seemed familiar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z-xdP8dLHs
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on November 21, 2017, 12:16:05 PM
Just checking in on my new Seth Griffith:

GPavgTOIGAPtsSH%CF%
YTD2217:08471110.80%52.30%
Pace82152641

(http://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/shotLoc5v5/1718/TOR/hymanza92)

Oh look, better shooting percentage when not driving all the way into the crease. I think it'll dip to between 8-9% by the end of the season, and he'll probably get 13 goals if his shooting rate holds steady.

It's still a bit early, but I think we've got a better picture of what Zach Hyman can do. 8 of his 11 pts are primary pts, but even when he's not hitting the scoresheet directly, he is freeing up pucks for his (more skilled) linemates to scoop up, and tying up defensemen.

Last night, he was the victim of circumstance, being pushed from behind so that his stick poked Raanta in the pads, causing Matthews' storybook goal to be disallowed.
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: herman on December 29, 2017, 08:24:46 AM
There's a chance Hyman's box stats gets a boost from playing against weaker competition if he's lower on the lineup. His 6% sh% is characteristically lower than his career would suggest. He had that explosive senior year with Michigan where he was probably in an overmatch position to succeed and did so.

How do you conclude that 6% SH% is lower than his career would suggest?  He only had 16 other games before last season.  Maybe 6% is what he shoots?  (in 98 career games now he's 7.3%)

He is shooting consistently from high danger areas, and really his only shooting problem was that he was too close at times, due to skating into the pile with his head down. I don't have corsica's numbers available now, but during the year, he was consistently underperforming his xGF.

When he was on the PK, he didn't go as deep, and in transition plays, he showed capable hands. I think he can be better when he's not playing a deferential top line role on his off wing with players that think faster than he does.

8)
*promptly falls mid-celly
Title: Re: Hyman Signed
Post by: bustaheims on December 29, 2017, 10:38:17 AM
Quietly on pace for 15 goals and 43 points. Not bad for $2.25M per.