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Maple Leafs News and Views => Main Leafs Hockey Talk => Marlies & Prospect Talk => Topic started by: herman on July 11, 2016, 09:50:59 AM

Title: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on July 11, 2016, 09:50:59 AM
PPP's Top 25 Under 25 for 2016-2017 is under way.
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/7/10/12136480/the-t25u25-is-in-production

How would you rank them? Do you rank by ceiling/potential? or current NHL usefulness? How would you rank our big 4? Who rounds out the top 5? Has the pool ever been this tightly contested in each of the talent tiers?


2016 Eligible:2016's list2015's list
Adam Brooks
Andreas Johnson
Andrew Nielsen
Antoine Bibeau
Auston Matthews
Brendan Leipsic
Carl Grundstrom
Connor Brown
Connor Carrick
Dakota Joshua
Dmytro Timashov
Dominic Toninato
Frank Corrado
Frederik Gauthier
Garret Sparks
Jack Walker
JD Greenway
Jeremy Bracco
Jesper Lindgren
JJ Piccinich
Joseph Woll
Josh Leivo
Justin Holl
Kasmir Kaskisuo
Kasperi Kapanen
Keaton Middleton
Kerby Rychel
Martin Marincin
Martins Dzierkals
Mitch Marner
Morgan Rielly
Nicolas Mattinen
Nikita Korostelev
Nikita Soshnikov
Nikita Zaitsev
Nikolai Chebykin
Nolan Vesey
Pierre Engvall
Rinat Valiev
Stephen Desrocher
Tobias Lindberg
Travis Dermott
Viktor Loov
Vladimir Boblyev
William Nylander
Yegor Korshkov
Zach Hyman
25. Yegor Korshkov (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/8/12358958/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-yegor-korshkov-starts-things-off-at-no-25)
24. Martins Dzierkals (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/9/12351400/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-martins-dzierkals-wins-his-way-to-no-24)
23. Carl Grundstrom (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/10/12392012/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-carl-grundstrom-debuts-at-23)
22. Andrew Neilsen (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/11/12383156/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-andrew-nielsen-works-his-way-to-no-22)
21. Rinat Valiev (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/12/12418908/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-welcome-to-21st-rinat-valiev)
20. Tobias Lindberg (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/15/12405604/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-tobias-lindberg-comes-in-at-no-20)
19. Travis Dermott (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/16/12385964/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-travis-dermott-rises-to-no-19)
18. Josh Leivo (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/17/12390854/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-josh-leivo-falls-back-to-18)
17. Brendan Leipsic (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/18/12441244/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-brendan-leipsic-is-number-17-now-let-spike-go-scott)
16. Jeremy Bracco (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/19/12519020/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-jeremy-bracco-is-16th)
15. Zach Hyman (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/22/12392756/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-zach-hyman-breaks-through-at-no-15)
14. Frank Corrado (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/23/12585764/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-frank-corrado-is-14th)
13. Dmytro Timashov (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/24/12583406/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-dmytro-timashov-is-lucky-13)
12. Andreas Johnson (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/25/12516186/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-andreas-johnson-lands-in-north-america-at-no-12)
11. Kerby Rychel (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/26/12572480/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-kerby-rychel-is-no-11)
10. Nikita Soshnikov (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/29/12650444/maple-leafs-top-25-nikita-soshnikov-marlies)
9. Kasperi Kapanen (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/30/12696692/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-kasperi-kapanen-is-10th)
8. Martin Marincin (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/31/12492456/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-martin-marincin-is-no-8)
7. Connor Carrick (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/9/1/12709786/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-7-connor-carrick)
6. Nikita Zaitsev (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/9/2/12720998/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-nikita-zaitsev-debuts-at-number-6)
5. Connor Brown (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/9/5/12750456/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-top-5-kicks-off-with-connor-brown)
4. Morgan Rielly (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/9/6/12467708/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-morgan-rielly-stars-at-no-4)
3. Mitch Marner (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/9/7/12573936/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-mitch-marner-moves-up-to-no-3)
2. William Nylander (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/9/8/12659008/top-25-under-25-william-nylander-is-no-2)
1. Auston Matthews (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/9/9/12782046/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-auston-matthews-unanimously-named-no-1) (duh)
25. Christopher Gibson (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/10/9116757/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-25-christopher-gibson) - traded
24. Matt Finn (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/11/9099921/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-24-matt-finn) - traded
23. Scott Harrington (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/12/9128981/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-23-scott-harrington) - traded
22. Travis Dermott (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/13/9146043/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-22-travis-dermott)
21. Dmytro Timashov (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/14/9149619/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-21-dmytro-timashov)
20. Carter Verhaeghe (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/17/9124151/ppps-top-25-under-25-20-carter-verhaeghe) - traded
19. Frederik Gauthier (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/18/9168311/ppps-top-25-under-25-frederik-gauthier)
18. Nikita Soshnikov (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/19/9171705/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-18-evgeny-soshnikov)
17. Taylor Beck (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/20/9176481/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-17-taylor-beck) - traded
16. Viktor Lööv (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/21/9166419/ppps-top-25-under-25-16-viktor-loov)
15. Josh Leivo (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/24/9195169/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-15-josh-leivo)
14. Jeremy Bracco (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/25/9202215/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-14-jeremy-bracco)
13. Stuart Percy (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/26/9198283/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-13-stuart-percy) - UFA'd
12. Brendan Leipsic (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/27/9199427/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-12-brendan-leipsic)
11. Andreas Johnson (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/28/9214991/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-11-andreas-johnson)
10. Martin Marincin (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/31/9223503/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-10-martin-marincin)
9. Richard Panik (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2015/9/1/9222159/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-9-richard-panik) - traded
8. Connor Brown (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/2/9239037/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-8-connor-brown-minus-72)
7. Peter Holland (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/3/9248185/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-7-peter-holland) - graduated
6. Kasperi Kapanen (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/4/9247177/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-6-kasperi-kapanen)
5. Mitch Marner (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/7/9248995/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-5-mitch-marner-London-Knights)
4. Nazem Kadri (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/8/9270501/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-4-nazem-kadri) - graduated
3. Jake Gardiner (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/9/9286333/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-3-jake-gardiner) - graduated
2. William Nylander (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/10/9299551/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-2-william-nylander)
1. Morgan Rielly (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/11/9302277/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-1-morgan-rielly)


TLN is doing a top 20 (Calder-eligible) prospects as well, so I'll track both here.

20. Garret Sparks (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/8/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-20-garret-sparks)
19. Kasmir Kaskisuo (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/9/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-19-kasimir-kaskisuo)
18. Adam Brooks (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/10/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-18-adam-brooks)
17. Yegor Korshkov (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/11/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-17-yegor-korshkov)
16. Tobias Lindberg (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/12/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-16-tobias-lindberg)
15. Andrew Neilsen (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/15/tln-top-prospects-2016-15-andrew-nielsen)
14. Carl Grundstrom (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/16/tln-top-prospects-2016-14-carl-grundstrom)
13. Zach Hyman (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/17/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-13-zach-hyman)
12. Brendan Leipsic (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/18/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-12-brendan-leipsic)
11. Jeremy Bracco (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/19/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-11-jeremy-bracco)
10. Nikita Soshnikov (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/22/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-10-nikita-soshnikov)
9. Travis Dermott (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/23/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-9-travis-dermott)
8. Dmytro Timashov (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/24/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-8-dmytro-timashov)
7. Andreas Johnson (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/25/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-7-andreas-johnson)
6. Connor Brown (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/26/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-6-connor-brown)
5. Kasperi Kapanen (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/29/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-5-kasperi-kapanen)
4. Nikita Zaitsev (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/30/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-4-nikita-zaitsev)
3. William Nylander (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/31/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-3-william-nylander)
2. Mitch Marner (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/9/1/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-2-mitch-marner)
1. Auston Matthews (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/9/2/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-1-auston-matthews)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 11, 2016, 12:28:38 PM
Sure, I'll take a stab.

1. Auston Matthews
Mitch Marner
Morgan Rielly
William Nylander
5. Nikita Zaitsev
Connor Brown
Kasperi Kapanen
Connor Carrick
Zach Hyman
10. Nikita Soshnikov
Jeremy Bracco
Kerby Rychel
Travis Dermott
Dmytro Timashov
15. Martin Marincin
Andreas Johnson
Frank Corrado
Yegor Korshkov
Carl Grundstrom
20. Brendan Leipsic
Josh Leivo
Andrew Nielsen
Martins Dzierkals
Rinat Valiev
Frederik Gauthier

I combined NHL potential and NHL readiness in my ranking- I tried not to value one over the other. 

Gauthier had to make the list IMO because he's going to play in the NHL as a 4th line center, face-off specialist, and PK forward.  Probably in 2017-2018.  In the next group were a bunch of goalies, Brooks, and Greenway.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 11, 2016, 02:16:02 PM
My list is a little different.  I have a slightly different definition of what qualifies as a prospect.  To me a prospect is one that has yet to crack an NHL roster.

A U 25 roster player is a U 25 roster player, not a prospect, so in my prospect pool, Morgan Rielly for instance, doesn't qualify.  He's a core player, signed long term.  That being said, here are my top 20 prospects:

Ranked on both NHL readiness and long term success.

1. Auston Matthews
2. Mitch Marner
3. William Nylander
4. Nikita Zaitsev
5. Connor Carrick
6. Connor Brown
7. Zach Hyman
8. Nikita Soshnikov
9. Kerby Rychel
10. Kasperi Kapanen
11. Travis Dermott
12. Jeremy Bracco
13. Viktor Loov
14. Tobias Lindberg
15. Brendan Leipsic
16. Antoine Bibeau
17. Andrew Nielsen
18. Frederik Gauthier
19. Josh Leivo
20. Garret Sparks

Not qualified in my list are the likes of Corrado, Rielly, Marincin, etc. as they have already both played their rookie season and aren't currently in the minors.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bender on July 11, 2016, 03:12:50 PM
My list is a little different.  I have a slightly different definition of what qualifies as a prospect.  To me a prospect is one that has yet to crack an NHL roster.

A U 25 roster player is a U 25 roster player, not a prospect, so in my prospect pool, Morgan Rielly for instance, doesn't qualify.  He's a core player, signed long term.  That being said, here are my top 20 prospects:

Ranked on both NHL readiness and long term success.

1. Auston Matthews
2. Mitch Marner
3. William Nylander
4. Nikita Zaitsev
5. Connor Carrick
6. Connor Brown
7. Zach Hyman
8. Nikita Soshnikov
9. Kerby Rychel
10. Kasperi Kapanen
11. Travis Dermott
12. Jeremy Bracco
13. Viktor Loov
14. Tobias Lindberg
15. Brendan Leipsic
16. Antoine Bibeau
17. Andrew Nielsen
18. Frederik Gauthier
19. Josh Leivo
20. Garret Sparks

Not qualified in my list are the likes of Corrado, Rielly, Marincin, etc. as they have already both played their rookie season and aren't currently in the minors.

Yeah but the PPP article isn't about whether they've played in the NHL or not. It literally is what is says: Players U25 are eligible for the list.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 11, 2016, 03:24:07 PM
My list is a little different.  I have a slightly different definition of what qualifies as a prospect.  To me a prospect is one that has yet to crack an NHL roster.

A U 25 roster player is a U 25 roster player, not a prospect, so in my prospect pool, Morgan Rielly for instance, doesn't qualify.  He's a core player, signed long term.  That being said, here are my top 20 prospects:

Ranked on both NHL readiness and long term success.

1. Auston Matthews
2. Mitch Marner
3. William Nylander
4. Nikita Zaitsev
5. Connor Carrick
6. Connor Brown
7. Zach Hyman
8. Nikita Soshnikov
9. Kerby Rychel
10. Kasperi Kapanen
11. Travis Dermott
12. Jeremy Bracco
13. Viktor Loov
14. Tobias Lindberg
15. Brendan Leipsic
16. Antoine Bibeau
17. Andrew Nielsen
18. Frederik Gauthier
19. Josh Leivo
20. Garret Sparks

Not qualified in my list are the likes of Corrado, Rielly, Marincin, etc. as they have already both played their rookie season and aren't currently in the minors.

Yeah but the PPP article isn't about whether they've played in the NHL or not. It literally is what is says: Players U25 are eligible for the list.

Understood, but I'm not going off the PPP article.  Plus it isn't hard to see who I'm omitting.  Top young talent is different than prospect rankings wouldn't you say?  It makes no sense to me to rank Rielly as a prospect is all.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Arn on July 11, 2016, 04:50:08 PM
You do love to be contrary  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 11, 2016, 05:17:01 PM
You do love to be contrary  ;D ;)

LOL!  ;D
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 11, 2016, 05:17:16 PM
I'm going to be ranking them based on whose name, if they were characters in a novel you bought at the airport, would make you question the author's judgment the most:

1. Kerby Rychel
2. Auston Matthews
3. Jack Walker
4. Yegor Korshkov
5. Antoine Bibeau
6. Garret Sparks
7. Carl Grundstrom
8. Morgan Rielly
9. Viktor Loov
10. Connor Carrick

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: bustaheims on July 11, 2016, 06:31:18 PM
I'm going to be ranking them based on whose name, if they were characters in a novel you bought at the airport, would make you question the author's judgment the most:

1. Kerby Rychel
2. Auston Matthews
3. Jack Walker
4. Yegor Korshkov
5. Antoine Bibeau
6. Garret Sparks
7. Carl Grundstrom
8. Morgan Rielly
9. Viktor Loov
10. Connor Carrick

This list is invalid without Dakota Joshua as the #1.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Frank E on July 11, 2016, 07:10:26 PM
I'm going to be ranking them based on whose name, if they were characters in a novel you bought at the airport, would make you question the author's judgment the most:

1. Kerby Rychel
2. Auston Matthews
3. Jack Walker
4. Yegor Korshkov
5. Antoine Bibeau
6. Garret Sparks
7. Carl Grundstrom
8. Morgan Rielly
9. Viktor Loov
10. Connor Carrick

This list is invalid without Dakota Joshua as the #1.

The omission of a guy named Vladimir Bobylev was enough for me to throw it away.

Garbage List.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 11, 2016, 07:24:10 PM

5 worst omissions from my Airport Novel list:

1. Dakota Joshua
2. Rinat Valiev
3. JD Greenway
4. Nikita Korostelev
5. Keaton Middleton
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: RedLeaf on July 11, 2016, 08:14:58 PM
My list is a little different.  I have a slightly different definition of what qualifies as a prospect.  To me a prospect is one that has yet to crack an NHL roster.

A U 25 roster player is a U 25 roster player, not a prospect, so in my prospect pool, Morgan Rielly for instance, doesn't qualify.  He's a core player, signed long term.  That being said, here are my top 20 prospects:

Ranked on both NHL readiness and long term success.

1. Mitch Marner
2. Auston Matthews
3. William Nylander
4. Nikita Zaitsev
5. Connor Carrick
6. Connor Brown
7. Zach Hyman
8. Nikita Soshnikov
9. Kerby Rychel
10. Kasperi Kapanen
11. Travis Dermott
12. Jeremy Bracco
13. Viktor Loov
14. Tobias Lindberg
15. Brendan Leipsic
16. Antoine Bibeau
17. Andrew Nielsen
18. Frederik Gauthier
19. Josh Leivo
20. Garret Sparks

Not qualified in my list are the likes of Corrado, Rielly, Marincin, etc. as they have already both played their rookie season and aren't currently in the minors.

I made ONE change to your list. I don't know if I believe it. At least not yet. I just don't think we should all assume we have the number one and two in the correct order. I'd like to at least see them both play in an exhibition game first before I'm completely comfortable putting them in order. Anyone else think there's a chance?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 11, 2016, 08:20:17 PM
Technically, Rychel, Leivo and Carrick aren't rookies either as none would be eligible for the Calder next year.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: pmrules on July 12, 2016, 06:45:59 AM
It is a haul of picks, and it is too early to say it would have been the wrong decision, even now in hindsight.

 If I'm understanding correctly, I guess I was just under the impression that Hunter was drafting Marner at that spot as a first priority and plan. If the link it to be believed, they didn't think enough of him to prefer giving up that spot and trading down. That surprised me.

Me too but, to give the organization credit, I think there's real value in exploring all of your options. That very well might have been a "they'll never give us all that, will they?" sort of offer.

If the Leafs think Columbus' rookie GM wants Hanafin, they make the offer to see if they'll bite.  It was the Leafs trying to take advantage here, not so much them not liking Marner.

They seemed to like Werenski enough to keep their stash.

So, I agree.

Just saw this conversation for the first time as this thread was brought back up the last day or so. 

My understanding was that the leafs put this in front of Columbus just in case Marner was taken at 3 and that Hanifin was available for Columbus at 4.  They were only interested in executing their trade down strategy if Marner was off the table.

Which is interesting because, if memory serves correct,  Nonis was considering a trade down deal with St. Louis for their 1st and their 2  2nds when the Nylander pick came up, but Shanahan over turned him. 
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 08:14:51 AM

I made ONE change to your list. I don't know if I believe it. At least not yet. I just don't think we should all assume we have the number one and two in the correct order. I'd like to at least see them both play in an exhibition game first before I'm completely comfortable putting them in order. Anyone else think there's a chance?

Hey, to each his own, Marner has crazy skill but I give Matthews the edge due to 1C NHL potential.  We are very lucky to have them BOTH!

Technically, Rychel, Leivo and Carrick aren't rookies either as none would be eligible for the Calder next year.

They've also never made an NHL roster full time, just a smattering of games here and there, bounced up and down, that's why they still qualify for me.  So NHL rookies, no... prospects... yes.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 12, 2016, 08:19:12 AM
They've also never made an NHL roster full time, just a smattering of games here and there, bounced up and down, that's why they still qualify for me.  So NHL rookies, no... prospects... yes.

Your criteria seems designed to give a misleading impression of a team's young talent.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 08:22:08 AM
They've also never made an NHL roster full time, just a smattering of games here and there, bounced up and down, that's why they still qualify for me.  So NHL rookies, no... prospects... yes.

Your criteria seems designed to give a misleading impression of a team's young talent.

How so?  If you are U25 and NOT a full time NHL'er, you are a prospect until such time as you become a full time NHL'er.  How is that misleading?

Edit:  For those asking what happens when you are over 25 and not a full time NHL'er but still in the prospect pool...

At that point you are one of two things:

1. An AHL/NHL tweener (Brennan)
2. An AHL journeyman which is as far as your career will ever go unless you get signed overseas.

Either way, you are no longer a prospect.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 12, 2016, 08:30:35 AM
How so?  If you are U25 and NOT a full time NHL'er, you are a prospect until such time as you become a full time NHL'er.  How is that misleading?

Because of the largely meaningless distinction between prospect and player in this context. If a list like this is meant to give us a handle on where players stack against each other then why is it important to distinguish between where various players of similar ages are in their careers? Rielly is younger than Zaitsev. He's more relevant to a discussion of this nature than Zaitsev because he's more important to the team.

What a prospect is isn't a hard and fast rule, so why exclude players if you don't have to? What's gained by arbitrarily narrowing the scope of the discussion?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 08:44:12 AM

Because of the largely meaningless distinction between prospect and player in this context. If a list like this is meant to give us a handle on where players stack against each other then why is it important to distinguish between where various players of similar ages are in their careers? Rielly is younger than Zaitsev. He's more relevant to a discussion of this nature than Zaitsev because he's more important to the team.

What a prospect is isn't a hard and fast rule, so why exclude players if you don't have to? What's gained by arbitrarily narrowing the scope of the discussion?

1. See edit.
2. Zaitsev wasn't in our system at all, prior to THIS spring, he has yet to play a full season in the NHL, thus also qualifying as a rookie as well as a prospect regardless of being older than Rielly.

The discussion changes IMO from prospect depth to overall talent depth, once you include full time NHL'ers.  Then the discussion changes to also include players like Kadri, JVR, Gardiner and Andersen for instance. It's just a different list, not a prospect list.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 12, 2016, 08:49:18 AM
1. See edit.
2. Zaitsev wasn't in our system at all, prior to THIS spring, he has yet to play a full season in the NHL, thus also qualifying as a rookie as well as a prospect regardless of being older than Rielly.

Neither of those things answers the question I asked of what the value is in narrowing the scope of the question arbitrarily. I mean, it's great that you define prospect in a certain way but I don't see how these distinctions actually matter. If the Leafs had kept Marner up last year and he'd had a not very productive rookie season, why wouldn't we still want to assess his potential vs. the other young players in the system?

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 09:02:57 AM
1. See edit.
2. Zaitsev wasn't in our system at all, prior to THIS spring, he has yet to play a full season in the NHL, thus also qualifying as a rookie as well as a prospect regardless of being older than Rielly.

Neither of those things answers the question I asked of what the value is in narrowing the scope of the question arbitrarily. I mean, it's great that you define prospect in a certain way but I don't see how these distinctions actually matter. If the Leafs had kept Marner up last year and he'd had a not very productive rookie season, why wouldn't we still want to assess his potential vs. the other young players in the system?

Because then he gets ranked in comparison to his NHL teammates.  I just don't consider a full time NHL'er, regardless of age, a prospect.

You are no longer auditioning for the show, when you are in the show.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on July 12, 2016, 09:11:46 AM
There might be a bit of confusion due to my mushing PPP's T25U25 into a thread titled Ranking Prospects. The goal of the T25U25 is to rank our talent pool just shy of the standard development inflection point (before the chaff is separated from the wheat), so it contains a mix of prospects and (hopefully a lot of) full-timers.

Full timers usually get a heavier score due to having already 'made it' in some fashion, though there are caveats to that as bottom-6 or 5-6 d-pairings are far easier to make it in than top positions (e.g. Nylander and Marner scoring higher than Holland last year).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 12, 2016, 09:14:54 AM
Because then he gets ranked in comparison to his NHL teammates.  I just don't consider a full time NHL'er, regardless of age, a prospect.

You are no longer auditioning for the show, when you are in the show.

Right, you've made it abundantly clear that you think the distinction between prospect/not a prospect is a very important one. That's exactly the sort of semantic diversion that a "25 under 25" list seems specifically constructed to avoid though.

The unifying thing a 19 year old regular and a 19 year old who's been in Junior probably have is that the purpose of ranking them isn't based on the players they are right now but rather the projection of players they might be. That's true regardless of NHL experience and that's what these lists are about. It's a "who has the most potential in the system" list. Excluding players like Kadri and Gardiner is on the basis of them largely having become the players they're going to be rather than something arbitrary.

I mean, I guess I'll give asking one last try but this isn't about what you consider a prospect or whether or not you think the distinction between player/prospect is important. I'm asking us why we'd want to narrow the discussion as opposed to broaden it? What purpose does that serve as we assess young players?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: bustaheims on July 12, 2016, 09:20:50 AM
You are no longer auditioning for the show, when you are in the show.

Until you're a well-established player, you're always auditioning - even when you're in the show.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 09:21:24 AM
Because then he gets ranked in comparison to his NHL teammates.  I just don't consider a full time NHL'er, regardless of age, a prospect.

You are no longer auditioning for the show, when you are in the show.

Right, you've made it abundantly clear that you think the distinction between prospect/not a prospect is a very important one. That's exactly the sort of semantic diversion that a "25 under 25" list seems specifically constructed to avoid though.

The unifying thing a 19 year old regular and a 19 year old who's been in Junior probably have is that the purpose of ranking them isn't based on the players they are right now but rather the projection of players they might be. That's true regardless of NHL experience and that's what these lists are about. It's a "who has the most potential in the system" list. Excluding players like Kadri and Gardiner is on the basis of them largely having become the players they're going to be rather than something arbitrary.

I mean, I guess I'll give asking one last try but this isn't about what you consider a prospect or whether or not you think the distinction between player/prospect is important. I'm asking us why we'd want to narrow the discussion as opposed to broaden it? What purpose does that serve as we assess young players?

Because then why limit it at 25?  Why not assess our ENTIRE talent pool. That certainly broadens things.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 09:23:00 AM
You are no longer auditioning for the show, when you are in the show.

Until you're a well-established player, you're always auditioning - even when you're in the show.

But many more eyes are watching and biases are formed.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 12, 2016, 09:28:41 AM
Because then why limit it at 25?  Why not assess our ENTIRE talent pool. That certainly broadens things.

I answered that in the post you quote.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bender on July 12, 2016, 09:32:27 AM
Because then he gets ranked in comparison to his NHL teammates.  I just don't consider a full time NHL'er, regardless of age, a prospect.

You are no longer auditioning for the show, when you are in the show.

Right, you've made it abundantly clear that you think the distinction between prospect/not a prospect is a very important one. That's exactly the sort of semantic diversion that a "25 under 25" list seems specifically constructed to avoid though.

The unifying thing a 19 year old regular and a 19 year old who's been in Junior probably have is that the purpose of ranking them isn't based on the players they are right now but rather the projection of players they might be. That's true regardless of NHL experience and that's what these lists are about. It's a "who has the most potential in the system" list. Excluding players like Kadri and Gardiner is on the basis of them largely having become the players they're going to be rather than something arbitrary.

I mean, I guess I'll give asking one last try but this isn't about what you consider a prospect or whether or not you think the distinction between player/prospect is important. I'm asking us why we'd want to narrow the discussion as opposed to broaden it? What purpose does that serve as we assess young players?

Because then why limit it at 25?  Why not assess our ENTIRE talent pool. That certainly broadens things.

Because that was the scope the article went out to achieve, and it's fair in its scope - it's based on age bracket. That's it. Adding additional parameters unnecessarily distorts who our young players are and how good they are. As an example, leave Rielly off the list all you want - it's still an insane omission to make if we are judging our young, quality talent pool. I don't think anyone who's a Panthers fan would leave Ekblad off the top of their list of young players within the Panthers organization. I mean, by your definition Marner, Matthews, Nylander etc. will likely all be off this list next year, which makes our team's young players look incredibly shallow when it isn't.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 09:37:00 AM
Because then why limit it at 25?  Why not assess our ENTIRE talent pool. That certainly broadens things.

I answered that in the post you quote.

And you get to either accept my prospect list as a prospect list in a prospects thread, or go off and create a T 25 U 25 rank of your own or discuss the one created on PPP, which personally I don't think belongs in this subforum because it includes full time NHL'ers.  Go back to my original list and my disclaimer as to why I created it the way I did.

There is nothing wrong with my criteria because I've qualified it, before I created the list.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 12, 2016, 09:43:04 AM
There is nothing wrong with my criteria because I've qualified it, before I created the list.

Like I said, because it arbitrarily narrows the scope of what's being discussed I think it creates a less extensive answer to the fundamental question which is the overall strength(and effective depth chart) of the organizational pool of young players.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 09:44:41 AM


Because that was the scope the article went out to achieve, and it's fair in its scope - it's based on age bracket. That's it. Adding additional parameters unnecessarily distorts who our young players are and how good they are. As an example, leave Rielly off the list all you want - it's still an insane omission to make if we are judging our young, quality talent pool. I don't think anyone who's a Panthers fan would leave Ekblad off the top of their list of young players within the Panthers organization. I mean, by your definition Marner, Matthews, Nylander etc. will likely all be off this list next year, which makes our team's young players look incredibly shallow when it isn't.

I never clicked the link, I created my own pool and criteria, because if you're gonna rank Matthews and Marner and Nylander against Rielly, you might as well go ahead and rank them against JVR and Kadri and Gardiner too.

I choose to rank NHL'ers against NHL'ers and prospects against prospects.

So what if the prospect pool by my criteria looks more thinned out next season?  The best ones have become NHL'ers, which is a more important list to comprise of top players than a prospect pool.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bullfrog on July 12, 2016, 09:51:33 AM
My list is a little different.  I have a slightly different definition of what qualifies as a prospect.  To me a prospect is one that has yet to crack an NHL roster.

A U 25 roster player is a U 25 roster player, not a prospect, so in my prospect pool, Morgan Rielly for instance, doesn't qualify.  He's a core player, signed long term.  That being said, here are my top 20 prospects:

Ranked on both NHL readiness and long term success.

1. Mitch Marner
2. Auston Matthews
3. William Nylander
4. Nikita Zaitsev
5. Connor Carrick
6. Connor Brown
7. Zach Hyman
8. Nikita Soshnikov
9. Kerby Rychel
10. Kasperi Kapanen
11. Travis Dermott
12. Jeremy Bracco
13. Viktor Loov
14. Tobias Lindberg
15. Brendan Leipsic
16. Antoine Bibeau
17. Andrew Nielsen
18. Frederik Gauthier
19. Josh Leivo
20. Garret Sparks

Not qualified in my list are the likes of Corrado, Rielly, Marincin, etc. as they have already both played their rookie season and aren't currently in the minors.

I made ONE change to your list. I don't know if I believe it. At least not yet. I just don't think we should all assume we have the number one and two in the correct order. I'd like to at least see them both play in an exhibition game first before I'm completely comfortable putting them in order. Anyone else think there's a chance?

I don't. I think Matthews is in an entirely different class.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on July 12, 2016, 09:51:57 AM
PPP's Top 25 under 25 (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25) is under way.

25. Christopher Gibson (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/10/9116757/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-25-christopher-gibson) - traded
24. Matt Finn (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/11/9099921/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-24-matt-finn) - traded
23. Scott Harrington (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/12/9128981/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-23-scott-harrington) - traded
22. Travis Dermott (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/13/9146043/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-22-travis-dermott)
21. Dmytro Timashov (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/14/9149619/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-21-dmytro-timashov)
20. Carter Verhaeghe (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/17/9124151/ppps-top-25-under-25-20-carter-verhaeghe) - traded
19. Frederik Gauthier (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/18/9168311/ppps-top-25-under-25-frederik-gauthier)
18. Nikita Soshnikov (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/19/9171705/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-18-evgeny-soshnikov)
17. Taylor Beck (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/20/9176481/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-17-taylor-beck) - traded
16. Viktor Lööv (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/21/9166419/ppps-top-25-under-25-16-viktor-loov)
15. Josh Leivo (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/24/9195169/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-15-josh-leivo)
14. Jeremy Bracco (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/25/9202215/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-14-jeremy-bracco)
13. Stuart Percy (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/26/9198283/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-13-stuart-percy) - UFA'd
12. Brendan Leipsic (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/27/9199427/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-12-brendan-leipsic)
11. Andreas Johnson (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/28/9214991/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-11-andreas-johnson)
10. Martin Marincin (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/8/31/9223503/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-10-martin-marincin)
9. Richard Panik (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2015/9/1/9222159/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-9-richard-panik) - traded
8. Connor Brown (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/2/9239037/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-8-connor-brown-minus-72)
7. Peter Holland (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/3/9248185/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-7-peter-holland) - graduated
6. Kasperi Kapanen (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/4/9247177/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-6-kasperi-kapanen)
5. Mitch Marner (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/7/9248995/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-5-mitch-marner-London-Knights)
4. Nazem Kadri (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/8/9270501/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-4-nazem-kadri) - graduated
3. Jake Gardiner (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/9/9286333/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-3-jake-gardiner) - graduated
2. William Nylander (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/10/9299551/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-2-william-nylander)
1. Morgan Rielly (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2015/9/11/9302277/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-1-morgan-rielly)

Last year's T25U25 for reference with their current status relative to the team and the rankings.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 09:55:04 AM
There is nothing wrong with my criteria because I've qualified it, before I created the list.

Like I said, because it arbitrarily narrows the scope of what's being discussed I think it creates a less extensive answer to the fundamental question which is the overall strength(and effective depth chart) of the organizational pool of young players.

Nah, quite frankly, you're just being a dick.

When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 12, 2016, 09:57:45 AM
There is nothing wrong with my criteria because I've qualified it, before I created the list.

Like I said, because it arbitrarily narrows the scope of what's being discussed I think it creates a less extensive answer to the fundamental question which is the overall strength(and effective depth chart) of the organizational pool of young players.

Nah, quite frankly, you're just being a dick.

When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.

Wow, resorting to name calling... classy.  Seriously though, herman brought up the PPP T25U25 and you responded to that by changing the parameters.  Kudos for sticking to your guns, but you've basically stolen the topic from talking about the T25U25 into a discussion of what YOU care about.  I say we just ignore you and just move on to talking about the T25U25.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 12, 2016, 10:04:26 AM
When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.

PPP.

Wasn't.

Ranking.

Prospects.

You admittedly never clicked on the link. Had you done so you might have known that.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 12, 2016, 10:05:40 AM
When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

I don't know, I don't read him. But this isn't a list of prospects. Again, it seems pretty clearly designed to avoid that mess. There's probably a value in doing a prospects only list to the extent that if you're dealing with an American audience they're unlikely to get exposed to a lot of information about CHL or Euro league players and you want to focus analysis on guys who, unlike McDavid, hockey fans aren't likely to have seen.

But even still, whenever people do bring up things like HF's organizational rankings it's still valid to point out that their "graduation" standards distort the image of which team has the best young talent. List McDavid or don't, he's still pretty important to the question of Edmonton's organizational strength and how it projects going forward.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 10:15:20 AM
There is nothing wrong with my criteria because I've qualified it, before I created the list.

Like I said, because it arbitrarily narrows the scope of what's being discussed I think it creates a less extensive answer to the fundamental question which is the overall strength(and effective depth chart) of the organizational pool of young players.

Nah, quite frankly, you're just being a dick.

When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.

Wow, resorting to name calling... classy.  Seriously though, herman brought up the PPP T25U25 and you responded to that by changing the parameters.  Kudos for sticking to your guns, but you've basically stolen the topic from talking about the T25U25 into a discussion of what YOU care about.  I say we just ignore you and just move on to talking about the T25U25.

Which I invited anyone to do.  I think a T 25 U 25 belongs in the main section because it includes full time NHL'ers.

I don't think its fair to rank an unproven prospect against a full time NHL'er and yes name calling because all Nik and Busta have tried to do is discredit my list since I created it using a perfectly accepted industry model.  Multiple posters now (RL and BF) have had no problem discussing my list upon qualifying my criteria.

Neither Nik or Busta created legitimate lists but had no problem trying to paint mine as invalid when it comes to ranking prospects even though it is the very model the ENTIRE NHL uses.

But I guess here the PPP is more credible because in their list it allows for all players in the system under 25, that pitts prospects against full time NHL'ers. 
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on July 12, 2016, 10:16:10 AM
Or I could be arguing in my spare time, that was never 5 minites just now! ;)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 12, 2016, 10:20:23 AM

My list was legitimate.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 10:20:39 AM
When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.

PPP.

Wasn't.

Ranking.

Prospects.

You admittedly never clicked on the link. Had you done so you might have known that.

I've clicked on those PPP lists in previous seasons, I know what I was avoiding and why I created a true PROSPECT list in a PROSPECT RANKING thread to begin with.

No offence intended.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 12, 2016, 10:26:52 AM
I've clicked on those PPP lists in previous seasons, I know what I was avoiding and why I created a true PROSPECT list in a PROSPECT RANKING thread to begin with.

No offence intended.

This thread doesn't have any ironclad rules defining it. Last years edition of PPP's T25U25 was discussed at the beginning of it. While it's not a prospect ranking per se, it does include most of them so it's not forbidden to discuss here.

(on that note I split this off from last years thread so there's really no point in not having it by itself)

All in all, this was a pretty silly thing to get worked up about, but that's what happens when we don't have a Stamkos thread to unload on.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on July 12, 2016, 10:29:30 AM
Hockey Lives Matter!!!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bender on July 12, 2016, 10:29:38 AM
There is nothing wrong with my criteria because I've qualified it, before I created the list.

Like I said, because it arbitrarily narrows the scope of what's being discussed I think it creates a less extensive answer to the fundamental question which is the overall strength(and effective depth chart) of the organizational pool of young players.

Nah, quite frankly, you're just being a dick.

When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.

Wow, resorting to name calling... classy.  Seriously though, herman brought up the PPP T25U25 and you responded to that by changing the parameters.  Kudos for sticking to your guns, but you've basically stolen the topic from talking about the T25U25 into a discussion of what YOU care about.  I say we just ignore you and just move on to talking about the T25U25.

Which I invited anyone to do.  I think a T 25 U 25 belongs in the main section because it includes full time NHL'ers.

I don't think its fair to rank an unproven prospect against a full time NHL'er and yes name calling because all Nik and Busta have tried to do is discredit my list since I created it using a perfectly accepted industry model.  Multiple posters now (RL and BF) have had no problem discussing my list upon qualifying my criteria.

Neither Nik or Busta created legitimate lists but had no problem trying to paint mine as invalid when it comes to ranking prospects even though it is the very model the ENTIRE NHL uses.

But I guess here the PPP is more credible because in their list it allows for all players in the system under 25, that pitts prospects against full time NHL'ers.

It pits players of a certain age bracket against each other. If that's the intention of the list how is that list considered a non-credible list? Like I said before, sometimes prospect lists are terrible because you have players "graduating" at 20 and the depth of youth in the organization is then considered bad, when in reality that team could have the best pool of young players because, you know, they're GOOD players playing in the league at 19 or 20. I think Auston Matthews is far more valuable than someone like Frederik Gauthier today, and he will still be far more valuable come October when Matthews is playing full time for the Leafs at 18 and Gauthier is a possible career AHLer. But you know, he makes the list!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 10:30:20 AM
I've clicked on those PPP lists in previous seasons, I know what I was avoiding and why I created a true PROSPECT list in a PROSPECT RANKING thread to begin with.

No offence intended.

This thread doesn't have any ironclad rules defining it. Last years edition of PPP's T25U25 was discussed at the beginning of it. While it's not a prospect ranking per se, it does include most of them so it's not forbidden to discuss here.

(on that note I split this off from last years thread so there's really no point in not having it by itself)

All in all, this was a pretty silly thing to get worked up about, but that's what happens when we don't have a Stamkos thread to unload on.

LOL, too true.  ;D

3 pages to discuss the validity of the prospect list I chose to create that included only prospects....  ::)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 12, 2016, 10:35:03 AM
There is nothing wrong with my criteria because I've qualified it, before I created the list.

Like I said, because it arbitrarily narrows the scope of what's being discussed I think it creates a less extensive answer to the fundamental question which is the overall strength(and effective depth chart) of the organizational pool of young players.

Nah, quite frankly, you're just being a dick.

When Pronman does his annual prospect rankings (who quite frankly I find more credible than anyone on PPP) does he include full time NHL'ers? 

Does McDavid still show up?  No.  No he does not.

Wow, resorting to name calling... classy.  Seriously though, herman brought up the PPP T25U25 and you responded to that by changing the parameters.  Kudos for sticking to your guns, but you've basically stolen the topic from talking about the T25U25 into a discussion of what YOU care about.  I say we just ignore you and just move on to talking about the T25U25.

Which I invited anyone to do.  I think a T 25 U 25 belongs in the main section because it includes full time NHL'ers.

I don't think its fair to rank an unproven prospect against a full time NHL'er and yes name calling because all Nik and Busta have tried to do is discredit my list since I created it using a perfectly accepted industry model.  Multiple posters now (RL and BF) have had no problem discussing my list upon qualifying my criteria.

Neither Nik or Busta created legitimate lists but had no problem trying to paint mine as invalid when it comes to ranking prospects even though it is the very model the ENTIRE NHL uses.

But I guess here the PPP is more credible because in their list it allows for all players in the system under 25, that pitts prospects against full time NHL'ers.

It pits players of a certain age bracket against each other. If that's the intention of the list how is that list considered a non-credible list? Like I said before, sometimes prospect lists are terrible because you have players "graduating" at 20 and the depth of youth in the organization is then considered bad, when in reality that team could have the best pool of young players because, you know, they're GOOD players playing in the league at 19 or 20. I think Auston Matthews is far more valuable than someone like Frederik Gauthier today, and he will still be far more valuable come October when Matthews is playing full time for the Leafs at 18 and Gauthier is a possible career AHLer. But you know, he makes the list!

Okay so the PPP list is a young players list, instead of a prospect list.  Glad we cleared that up.  ;)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on July 12, 2016, 10:44:14 AM
This thread doesn't have any ironclad rules defining it. Last years edition of PPP's T25U25 was discussed at the beginning of it. While it's not a prospect ranking per se, it does include most of them so it's not forbidden to discuss here.

(on that note I split this off from last years thread so there's really no point in not having it by itself)

Thanks for the spin off, CtB.

I've updated the first post now to keep the running tally with a comparison to last year's result.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bender on July 12, 2016, 12:13:46 PM
I've clicked on those PPP lists in previous seasons, I know what I was avoiding and why I created a true PROSPECT list in a PROSPECT RANKING thread to begin with.

No offence intended.

This thread doesn't have any ironclad rules defining it. Last years edition of PPP's T25U25 was discussed at the beginning of it. While it's not a prospect ranking per se, it does include most of them so it's not forbidden to discuss here.

(on that note I split this off from last years thread so there's really no point in not having it by itself)

All in all, this was a pretty silly thing to get worked up about, but that's what happens when we don't have a Stamkos thread to unload on.

LOL, too true.  ;D

3 pages to discuss the validity of the prospect list I chose to create that included only prospects....  ::)

 ::) Indeed
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on July 22, 2016, 01:38:24 PM
Top 60 Prospects (modified Calder rules), per Scott Wheeler
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/7/20/12212480/2016-top-60-drafted-nhl-prospects-ranking

Quote
Eligibility

Most drafted NHL prospect rankings use Calder Memorial Trophy criteria to dictate who is eligible to be ranked and who isn't. Calder eligibility is currently dictated by a number of criteria. First, the player must be under 26 years old by September 15 of their rookie season. Second, the player must not have played more than 25 games in a single season or six or more games in two separate preceding seasons.

While I will use the latter to dictate eligibility, I have amended the age for the former. Because we know that a player is no longer a prospect at age 26, and the average NHL player begins to decline between the age of 26 and 30, the criteria for this ranking will dictate that a player must be 24 years old or younger by the start of his rookie season.

The only ones that matter:
1. Auston Matthews
4. William Nylander
6. Mitch Marner

The Leafs have the most players in the top 10 at 3, but they only have that many players on this (objectively subjective) list in its entirety. Arizona is sporting 7!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 22, 2016, 02:25:23 PM
Top 60 Prospects (modified Calder rules), per Scott Wheeler
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/7/20/12212480/2016-top-60-drafted-nhl-prospects-ranking

Quote
Eligibility

Most drafted NHL prospect rankings use Calder Memorial Trophy criteria to dictate who is eligible to be ranked and who isn't. Calder eligibility is currently dictated by a number of criteria. First, the player must be under 26 years old by September 15 of their rookie season. Second, the player must not have played more than 25 games in a single season or six or more games in two separate preceding seasons.

While I will use the latter to dictate eligibility, I have amended the age for the former. Because we know that a player is no longer a prospect at age 26, and the average NHL player begins to decline between the age of 26 and 30, the criteria for this ranking will dictate that a player must be 24 years old or younger by the start of his rookie season.

The only ones that matter:
1. Auston Matthews
4. William Nylander
6. Mitch Marner

The Leafs have the most players in the top 10 at 3, but they only have that many players on this (objectively subjective) list in its entirety. Arizona is sporting 7!

Yet he has Jimmy Vesey on his list while leaving C. Brown and Zaitsev off.  Those two could easily factor into that top 60, IMO.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on July 23, 2016, 08:30:23 AM
William Nylander has been having an NHL summer on Instagram.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on July 27, 2016, 09:55:59 AM
William Nylander has been having an NHL summer on Instagram.

Schwartzenegger legs?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 08, 2016, 09:20:42 AM
TLN is doing a Top 20 list (Calder-eligible) starting today. PPP's T25U25 kicks off today as well.

OP has been updated with the list and links.

PPP: 25 - Yegor Korshkov (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/8/12358958/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-yegor-korshkov-starts-things-off-at-no-25)
TLN: 20 - Garret Sparks (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/8/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-20-garret-sparks)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 09, 2016, 09:36:40 AM
PPP: 24. Martins Dzierkals (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/9/12351400/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-martins-dzierkals-wins-his-way-to-no-24)
TLN: 19. Kasmir Kaskisuo (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/9/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-19-kasimir-kaskisuo)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 09, 2016, 11:02:27 AM
Dzierkals sounds a bit like Soshnikov, with a more East-West game and a bit more snarl vs pestiness.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 10, 2016, 09:09:07 AM
PPP: 23. Carl Grundstrom (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/10/12392012/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-carl-grundstrom-debuts-at-23)
TLN: 18. Adam Brooks (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/10/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-18-adam-brooks)

This is normally the boring part of the list, where those long-term projects are shelved. To an extent, they still are, but they seem to have higher potential this time around than years past.

Not 100% sure what TLN is doing with their list though.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 11, 2016, 09:22:40 AM
PPP: 22. Andrew Neilsen (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/11/12383156/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-andrew-nielsen-works-his-way-to-no-22)
TLN: 17. Yegor Korshkov (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/11/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-17-yegor-korshkov)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 12, 2016, 09:27:37 AM
PPP: 21. Rinat Valiev (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/12/12418908/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-welcome-to-21st-rinat-valiev)
TLN: 16. Tobias Lindberg (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/12/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-16-tobias-lindberg)

I really like Valiev's speed and handling abilities; coupled with his size, I think he can top out as the 'defensive conscience' of a middle pairing. Offensive game could stand to grow more, as he has a pretty good shot that he just doesn't seem to want to use.

Lindberg was a bit underwhelming in his brief stint with the Marlies. Now that he's out of the Binghamton system (that didn't even work on skating), we might see some gains in his game, as he has a projectable frame and has shown flashes of talent. I kind of hope he becomes the Carl Gunnarson of the forwards.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on August 12, 2016, 10:34:18 AM
A good Q&A with Carl Grundstrom:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/12/12452200/carl-grundstrom-i-choose-frolunda-because-they-were-the-champions

Quote
PB: What is your weight now, as I am sure you built up a bit extra during the summer?

CG: I weigh about 194 lbs, I gained a bit since last season.

PB: How was it being drafted by Toronto, a true classic team, and a crazy [I think you mean 'excellent', Patrik! -- Acha] hockey town?

CG: It was great fun, I was there for development camp I got a great impression of the team. They are very professional.

PB: Have they spoken to you about what you need to develop further in your game?

CG: We didn't speak about it that much, no.

PB: Do you have an idea about the other prospects in the Toronto system?

CG: Nah not really to be honest, I know Nylander and Matthews obviously but those are the ones I know, I just enjoy watching good hockey so that's what I do.

An interesting note on his contract at the end there, we likely won't see him on NA ice for at least two more years.

Quote
Grundström's contract is for two years, and he was drafted outside the first round. Just like Mattias Janmark and Artturi Lehkonen, this means as he has a valid contract with a European team. He can't go to AHL while that is in effect, according to the CBA. After this season, he can play for either Toronto Maple Leafs or Frölunda HC.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on August 12, 2016, 10:46:33 AM
two to three years sounds good.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 12, 2016, 11:16:39 AM
Something I've been wondering about, but don't have the CBA know-how to sort out the legalese: How long a runway do we have on the 2016 draft picks in terms of deferring the decision to tender bona fide offers? I get the sense we have a larger proportion than usual of prospects who can develop playing against older professionals without taking up an SPC slot.

Normally, for 18 year olds out of Junior, it's two years before they re-enter the draft.

2016/7 picks and their upcoming leagues
Auston Matthews - NHL               
Yegor Korshkov - under contract with KHL until 2018               
Carl Grundstrom    - under contract with SHL until 2018
Joseph Woll - NCAA               
J.D. Greenway - NCAA
Adam Brooks - CHL (maybe AHL?)
Keaton Middleton - CHL
Vladimir Bobylev - under contract with KHL until 2018
Jack Walker - CHL (maybe AHL?)
Nicolas Mattinen - CHL
Nikolai Chebykin - MHL/KHL
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 15, 2016, 09:20:15 AM
PPP: 20. Tobias Lindberg (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/15/12405604/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-tobias-lindberg-comes-in-at-no-20)
TLN: 15. Andrew Neilsen (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/15/tln-top-prospects-2016-15-andrew-nielsen)

I was originally pretty low on Neilsen when he was drafted in 2015, due to the knock against his skating. His numbers were also pretty weak, but that was probably more due to his team's general ineptitude. He really turned it up in this D+1 year and attributes it to the work he put into developing his first stride:
Quote
"I worked a lot on my first step and that allowed me to get open a lot more and be able to find those shot lanes, and even finding guys on the ice was a little easier this year."

Raw speed is nice, but the game really opens up for those who know how to use their skating for separation (change of speed and direction) according to our skills consultant, Darryl Belfry.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 16, 2016, 09:07:34 AM
PPP: 19. Travis Dermott (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/16/12385964/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-travis-dermott-rises-to-no-19)
TLN: 14. Carl Grundstrom (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/16/tln-top-prospects-2016-14-carl-grundstrom)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 17, 2016, 09:21:25 AM
PPP: 18. Josh Leivo (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/17/12390854/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-josh-leivo-falls-back-to-18)
TLN: 13. Zach Hyman (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/17/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-13-zach-hyman)

Leivo's been on the T25U25 since the first in 2012, ranking at 21, 18, 8, 15, and now 18 again. At 23, he is eligible for next year's as well, provided he is still in our system.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 18, 2016, 09:09:28 AM
PPP: 17. Brendan Leipsic (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/18/12441244/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-brendan-leipsic-is-number-17-now-let-spike-go-scott)
TLN: 12. Brendan Leipsic (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/18/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-12-brendan-leipsic)

This was... unexpected.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on August 18, 2016, 08:39:34 PM
PPP: 18 #25 Josh Leivo
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 19, 2016, 09:11:30 AM
PPP: 16. Jeremy Bracco (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/19/12519020/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-jeremy-bracco-is-16th)
TLN: 11. Jeremy Bracco (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/19/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-11-jeremy-bracco)

Jeremy Bracco: Mitch Marner's understudy.
Let's see where he goes with a full season in the OHL and if he can put on some more separation speed and take more shots. The vision and hands are already there.

We have alignment again, two days in a row, with the bulk of the differences between the two lists from here on out likely to rest on the inclusion of Calder-ineligibles on the PPP list (Rielly, Carrick, Marincin, Rychel, Corrado).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 19, 2016, 11:03:34 AM
Bracco was probably my favourite 2015 draft pick, aside from Marner which is too obvious. I would have been happy with him at 34 so the fact that we got him at 61 was a major coup as far as I'm concerned. He had a really good first season in the OHL, but was overshadowed by Marner's dominance. Here's hoping he has an even bigger D+2 season, especially since he's in line to play a much bigger role with Kitchener. And hopefully the US takes him to the WJCs this time.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 19, 2016, 11:33:26 AM
So TLN's top-10 will consist of:

Matthews
Nylander
Marner
Brown
Kapanen
Johnson
Zaitsev
Soshnikov
Dermott
Timashov

(That's how I'd probably rank them)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 19, 2016, 11:34:29 AM
So TLN's top-10 will consist of:

Matthews
Nylander
Marner
Brown
Kapanen
Johnson
Zaitsev
Soshnikov
Dermott
Timashov

(That's how I'd probably rank them)

Yeah...we need better defensemen.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 19, 2016, 11:37:00 AM
Yeah...we need better defensemen.

Samuel Girard would have been #1 in my heart had we picked him.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 19, 2016, 11:39:58 AM
Yeah...we need better defensemen.

Samuel Girard would have been #1 in my heart had we picked him.

There's a pond in my dreams where Girard and Kylington are just passing the puck back and forth, just out of reach of a straining Yegor Korshkov.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 19, 2016, 11:51:46 AM
Bracco was probably my favourite 2015 draft pick, aside from Marner which is too obvious. I would have been happy with him at 34 so the fact that we got him at 61 was a major coup as far as I'm concerned. He had a really good first season in the OHL, but was overshadowed by Marner's dominance. Here's hoping he has an even bigger D+2 season, especially since he's in line to play a much bigger role with Kitchener. And hopefully the US takes him to the WJCs this time.

That Franson-Santorelli trade, man... the Leafs really squeezed every ounce of value out of that low 1st, and then some.

Franson + Santorelli --> Leipsic + [1st (24th) --> Dermott (34), Bracco (61), Dzierkals(68)] + [Olli Jokinen --> Joakim Lidstrom + 2016 6th --> Nicolas Mattinen]
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 19, 2016, 12:05:40 PM
Yeah...we need better defensemen.

Samuel Girard would have been #1 in my heart had we picked him.

There's a pond in my dreams where Girard and Kylington are just passing the puck back and forth, just out of reach of a straining Yegor Korshkov.

:'(
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 19, 2016, 12:10:42 PM
BTW: Kylington is #9 (http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.com/2016/8/18/12540142/top-25-under-25-9-oliver-kylington) on the Flames' T25U25 this year. The Habs site hasn't gotten to Girard yet (they're only at #20 as of this post).
Girard is with the Predators, and I don't think they have a T25U25.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 19, 2016, 12:20:27 PM

Girard is a Hab? When did I miss that?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 19, 2016, 12:26:43 PM

Girard is a Hab? When did I miss that?

Whoops, my bad. Didn't check the draft list properly and assumed from another draft article. Girard is with the Preds.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: KW Sluggo on August 20, 2016, 04:02:20 PM
Because then why limit it at 25?  Why not assess our ENTIRE talent pool. That certainly broadens things.

I answered that in the post you quote.

In one respect you did answer it but you did not direct an answer to the meaning of the more recent question, namely, if broadening the pool under discussion is important enough to include regular NHL players merely because there are under age 25 (e.g. Morgan Reilly who is by no definition a prospect, he is a developing NHL player with several years in the league and zero chance of going to the AHL other than for reconditioning after an injury), then that principle should also lead to elimination of the arbitrary age 25 limit.

The bottom line is that it is PPP criteria that are flawed, not the criteria of commenters who want to discuss the ranking of legitimate prospects.  In that respect I do like the age 25 criterion but the question you were asked related to the rationale you applied of "broadening the pool" which frankly contradicts the assertion that the age limit is acceptable.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 20, 2016, 05:43:51 PM
In one respect you did answer it but you did not direct an answer to the meaning of the more recent question, namely, if broadening the pool under discussion is important enough to include regular NHL players merely because there are under age 25 (e.g. Morgan Reilly who is by no definition a prospect, he is a developing NHL player with several years in the league and zero chance of going to the AHL other than for reconditioning after an injury), then that principle should also lead to elimination of the arbitrary age 25 limit.

I really don't know why you wanted to bump this after a month but it's not a question of importance, it's a matter of accurately summing up the amount of, for lack of a better word, potential in an organization. It's trying to get a read on where a team will be a few years from now based on the talent within the organization or to get a gauge on the unrealized potential within an organization based on the players within an organization. In either situation a player being in the NHL or not is immaterial to the discussion. Trying to predict where the Oilers will be in 2-3 years but eliminating consideration of Connor McDavid on the basis of him already being in the NHL is pointless. It's not informative or enlightening.

In that scenario you're not arriving at a meaningful ranking, you're just engaging in arbitrary rankings that rewards bad drafting as much as good drafting because the best drafting results in players making the NHL quickly.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 22, 2016, 09:06:54 AM
PPP: 15. Zach Hyman (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/22/12392756/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-zach-hyman-breaks-through-at-no-15)
TLN: 10. Nikita Soshnikov (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/22/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-10-nikita-soshnikov)

Zach Hyman and Nikita Soshnikov occupy the upper middle of our current depth chart of shift disturbers: Kadri (sort of, hybrid skilled center/mucky muck), Komarov, Hyman, Soshnikov, Martin, Grundstrom, Dzierkals. So long as Babcock is our coach, these guys are going to get spotlight time next to the likes of Matthews, Nylander, and Marner.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 22, 2016, 09:36:51 AM
A note on why 25 works as the age cap when assessing an organization's talent depth: players tend to hit their development plateaus around 25. Their production becomes easier to predict and they are known quantities and their ceiling is basically established. The league a player currently suits up for is merely an indicator of where that player's performance tier lands (coupled with age restrictions and geography, I guess).

Especially in a salary cap system, where the most efficient production (P/$) generally comes from your youth, assessing the talent depth at this stage is a great indicator of the team's health and longevity.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 22, 2016, 09:55:22 AM
A note on why 25 works as the age cap when assessing an organization's talent depth

Also: Top 25 under 25 has a nice sounding ring to it.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 23, 2016, 09:10:22 AM
PPP: 14. Frank Corrado (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/23/12585764/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-frank-corrado-is-14th)
TLN: 9. Travis Dermott (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/23/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-9-travis-dermott)

Because of his interesting acquisition and limited ice time, I know a lot about Frank Corrado, but very little about how he plays. Babcock fed him a steady diet of cushy offensive zone starts and sort of like he did with Rielly (but in reverse), he's going to dangle harder minutes for him to earn. I truly hope he relegates Polak to the bench.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 24, 2016, 09:06:10 AM
PPP: 13. Dmytro Timashov (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/24/12583406/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-dmytro-timashov-is-lucky-13)
TLN: 8. Dmytro Timashov (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/24/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-8-dmytro-timashov)

Timashov was my favourite pick after Marner in 2014 2015. He's got every tool outside of size (but strength is not an issue). He's Marlie-eligible this year, and I can see him staying there for the next two years, with brief stints in the NHL on call ups. Plays a similar game to Soshnikov, but with more skill and playmaking and more development runway. He would have placed higher in my personal T25U25 list (bottom half of top 10).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on August 24, 2016, 10:32:57 AM
My son flipped when they drafted him, i had never heard about him and don't know how my son was so much in the loop, but lets hope he is the steal of his draft year.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 25, 2016, 09:10:54 AM
PPP: 12. Andreas Johnson (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/25/12516186/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-andreas-johnson-lands-in-north-america-at-no-12)
TLN: 7. Andreas Johnson (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/25/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-7-andreas-johnson)

We have yet another confluence of voting.

Judging by these write ups, Andreas Johnson is a leopard. Not the biggest cat. Not the fastest cat. Not the strongest cat. But he will find that perfect spot to sit and wait. And he will get you. And you won't see it coming.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on August 25, 2016, 09:29:55 AM
PPP: 13. Dmytro Timashov (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/24/12583406/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-dmytro-timashov-is-lucky-13)
TLN: 8. Dmytro Timashov (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/24/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-8-dmytro-timashov)

Timashov was my favourite pick after Marner in 2014. He's got every tool outside of size (but strength is not an issue). He's Marlie-eligible this year, and I can see him staying there for the next two years, with brief stints in the NHL on call ups. Plays a similar game to Soshnikov, but with more skill and playmaking and more development runway. He would have placed higher in my personal T25U25 list (bottom half of top 10).

Alot has happened in Leafland recently for sure, making Marner and Timashov's draft seem like ages ago, but they were in fact drafted in 2015, just to clarify.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 25, 2016, 09:37:24 AM
PPP: 13. Dmytro Timashov (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/24/12583406/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-dmytro-timashov-is-lucky-13)
TLN: 8. Dmytro Timashov (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/24/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-8-dmytro-timashov)

Timashov was my favourite pick after Marner in 2014. He's got every tool outside of size (but strength is not an issue). He's Marlie-eligible this year, and I can see him staying there for the next two years, with brief stints in the NHL on call ups. Plays a similar game to Soshnikov, but with more skill and playmaking and more development runway. He would have placed higher in my personal T25U25 list (bottom half of top 10).

Alot has happened in Leafland recently for sure, making Marner and Timashov's draft seem like ages ago, but they were in fact drafted in 2015, just to clarify.

Haha, you're right. That's what happens when I don't check my work.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on August 25, 2016, 10:35:45 AM
Thank god your here Herman you are keeping this board alive thru the dog days.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 25, 2016, 10:45:52 AM
Thank god your here Herman you are keeping this board alive thru the dog days.

Thank the board for giving me the appearance of being occupied during work =)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: TBLeafer on August 25, 2016, 11:03:32 AM
Thank god your here Herman you are keeping this board alive thru the dog days.

Thank the board for giving me the appearance of being occupied during work =)

Ain't it the truth.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on August 25, 2016, 01:57:55 PM
I am sure your productivity has not dropped since you joined us. LOL
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 26, 2016, 09:03:32 AM
PPP: 11. Kerby Rychel (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/26/12572480/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-kerby-rychel-is-no-11)
TLN: 6. Connor Brown (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/26/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-6-connor-brown)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Frank E on August 26, 2016, 09:44:51 AM
To my eye test, I really liked Brown's game this past spring in those few games that he played with the big club.

If I recall correctly, Babcock was speaking very highly of him as well.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 26, 2016, 09:47:52 AM
To my eye test, I really liked Brown's game this past spring in those few games that he played with the big club.

If I recall correctly, Babcock was speaking very highly of him as well.

Brown is faster than I expected! I remember the knock against him early on was his skating, but he usually overcame it with sheer determination to get into the right spot to make smart plays.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on August 26, 2016, 10:02:18 AM
To my eye test, I really liked Brown's game this past spring in those few games that he played with the big club.

If I recall correctly, Babcock was speaking very highly of him as well.

Brown is faster than I expected! I remember the knock against him early on was his skating, but he usually overcame it with sheer determination to get into the right spot to make smart plays.

Smart plays is correct, he has great positional awareness, it makes him an excellent PK guy too.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 26, 2016, 01:15:28 PM
I still don't really know what to think of Rychel yet. He is not expansion draft exempt either.

Does he have the 'drive-train' to play the power forward game? He's got hands for sure, but the wheels are just climbing towards average. Is he a slightly slower, more offensive-minded Tobias Lindberg?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Tigger on August 26, 2016, 03:18:58 PM
I remember being really turned off when I watched him skate last year, personally I don't have a lot of hope for him past maybe depth at some point, even then.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 29, 2016, 09:25:27 AM
PPP: 10. Nikita Soshnikov (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/29/12650444/maple-leafs-top-25-nikita-soshnikov-marlies)
TLN: 5. Kasperi Kapanen (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/29/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-5-kasperi-kapanen)

I heart Soshnikov, who fills the gap left when Kulemin was shown the door. He's not as sturdy or defensive as Kulemin, but Soshnikov plays a pretty similar game, which I have dubbed: heavy Russian. High skill and puck possession + wrecking ball mentality.

Kapanen seems to have that clutch factor. He occasionally plays invisible, but when your team needs that one goal to knot up the game, or that one goal to claim the prize, he's the one buzzing the net to pounce opportunistically on any puck.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on August 29, 2016, 11:21:51 AM
I still don't really know what to think of Rychel yet. He is not expansion draft exempt either.

Does he have the 'drive-train' to play the power forward game? He's got hands for sure, but the wheels are just climbing towards average. Is he a slightly slower, more offensive-minded Tobias Lindberg?

Kerby Rychel too me is going to be Carter Ashton 2.0.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Potvin29 on August 29, 2016, 01:26:56 PM
Corey Pronman ranked all of the teams' based on their prospects, the Leafs were #1 with this write-up.  It's an Insider article so I won't reproduce anything more from it:

Quote
1) Toronto Maple Leafs Previous rank: 2 

Toronto has the best farm system in the NHL and it isn't close. Based on my prospect definitions, there are zero reasonable arguments for anyone to even be in the same conversation. Not only do they have a ton of elite talent in players like Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner and William Nylander, but their depth is elite too. There are at least 20 prospects in this system that would fit in many other teams' top 10.

Actually had this ready to go 2 hours ago but passed out after reading that.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Frank E on August 29, 2016, 02:13:35 PM
Corey Pronman ranked all of the teams' based on their prospects, the Leafs were #1 with this write-up.  It's an Insider article so I won't reproduce anything more from it:

Quote
1) Toronto Maple Leafs Previous rank: 2 

Toronto has the best farm system in the NHL and it isn't close. Based on my prospect definitions, there are zero reasonable arguments for anyone to even be in the same conversation. Not only do they have a ton of elite talent in players like Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner and William Nylander, but their depth is elite too. There are at least 20 prospects in this system that would fit in many other teams' top 10.

Actually had this ready to go 2 hours ago but passed out after reading that.

So, this is as good as it gets?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: bustaheims on August 29, 2016, 02:32:23 PM
Corey Pronman ranked all of the teams' based on their prospects, the Leafs were #1 with this write-up.  It's an Insider article so I won't reproduce anything more from it:

Quote
1) Toronto Maple Leafs Previous rank: 2 

Toronto has the best farm system in the NHL and it isn't close. Based on my prospect definitions, there are zero reasonable arguments for anyone to even be in the same conversation. Not only do they have a ton of elite talent in players like Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner and William Nylander, but their depth is elite too. There are at least 20 prospects in this system that would fit in many other teams' top 10.

Actually had this ready to go 2 hours ago but passed out after reading that.

What a difference a few years makes! It wasn't that long ago that, in spite of the Leafs having been awful, the prospect depth was ordinary at best.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Misty on August 29, 2016, 02:49:33 PM
Corey Pronman ranked all of the teams' based on their prospects, the Leafs were #1 with this write-up.  It's an Insider article so I won't reproduce anything more from it:

Quote
1) Toronto Maple Leafs Previous rank: 2 

Toronto has the best farm system in the NHL and it isn't close. Based on my prospect definitions, there are zero reasonable arguments for anyone to even be in the same conversation. Not only do they have a ton of elite talent in players like Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner and William Nylander, but their depth is elite too. There are at least 20 prospects in this system that would fit in many other teams' top 10.

Actually had this ready to go 2 hours ago but passed out after reading that.

What a difference a few years makes! It wasn't that long ago that, in spite of the Leafs having been awful, the prospect depth was ordinary at best.

With their recent acquisitions, I would think Arizona would have to be in the conversation for top ranked prospect pool...
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: McGarnagle on August 29, 2016, 02:52:31 PM
I heart Soshnikov, who fills the gap left when Kulemin was shown the door. He's not as sturdy or defensive as Kulemin, but Soshnikov plays a pretty similar game, which I have dubbed: heavy Russian. High skill and puck possession + wrecking ball mentality.

I like shoshnikov as well, but I don't see all that much in common with Kulemin, apart from being russian. Kulemin didn't go out of his way to make big hits, nor agitate, and really didn't have much flash to his game. I see a much closer comparable to uncle leo, but with more tools on the offensive side than the defensive.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 29, 2016, 02:54:03 PM
Caveats which could explain why we're number 1 by Pronman's definition:

Quote
Pronman: Defining a prospect is important when assessing a pool since many players live on the boundaries of being a prospect or not. For purposes of this ranking, a player is graduated if they have played 25 games or more in any NHL season, or 50 total in their career. Ultimately, the inclusion or exclusion of one player doesn't move a team up or down 12-15 spots, unless you're talking top-10 overall prospects.

In terms of tiers, the Maple Leafs are their own tier up top, then after jumping down about five stories we have the Coyotes, Jets and Blue Jackets in a tier, then I'd put everyone from the Hurricanes (No. 5) through the Flames (No. 9) in another tier, before a marginal decline begins from the Predators (No. 10) onwards. Each team's previous rank refers to the edition preceding the 2015-16 season.

We're not going to be this high up in his rankings next year with Matthews, Nylander, and probably Marner coming off the board after playing 25 games.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: McGarnagle on August 29, 2016, 02:55:02 PM
I still don't really know what to think of Rychel yet. He is not expansion draft exempt either.

Does he have the 'drive-train' to play the power forward game? He's got hands for sure, but the wheels are just climbing towards average. Is he a slightly slower, more offensive-minded Tobias Lindberg?

Kerby Rychel too me is going to be Carter Ashton 2.0.

Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me much. If you're not at least at average speed in today's game, you had better be absolutely elite in other areas of the game to make it up.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 29, 2016, 02:59:08 PM
I heart Soshnikov, who fills the gap left when Kulemin was shown the door. He's not as sturdy or defensive as Kulemin, but Soshnikov plays a pretty similar game, which I have dubbed: heavy Russian. High skill and puck possession + wrecking ball mentality.

I like shoshnikov as well, but I don't see all that much in common with Kulemin, apart from being russian. Kulemin didn't go out of his way to make big hits, nor agitate, and really didn't have much flash to his game. I see a much closer comparable to uncle leo, but with more tools on the offensive side than the defensive.

There are certainly differences, and your observation about Sosh going out of his way is a good one. I was thinking more along the lines of the largely North-South game (which is rather not traditional Russian hockey), fearless disruption style checking, and scoring touch. I think it might be a bit of an Ovechkin effect.

The PPP article (that I read after I wrote my own hot take) compares Soshnikov to a Kulemin-Grabovski-Komarov hybrid.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: McGarnagle on August 29, 2016, 02:59:39 PM
What a difference a few years makes! It wasn't that long ago that, in spite of the Leafs having been awful, the prospect depth was ordinary at best.

It is pretty amazing. I wonder though, if we had finished 2nd or 3rd in the lottery, would the article have been so clear cut... we have great offensive prospects, but on the defensive side, it's an awful lot weaker...
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 29, 2016, 03:04:33 PM
What a difference a few years makes! It wasn't that long ago that, in spite of the Leafs having been awful, the prospect depth was ordinary at best.

From January 2014: http://theleafsnation.com/2014/1/25/tln-top-20-leafs-prospects-midterm-rankings-the-final-list

After Rielly our next 6 top prospects were: Holland, Finn, Percy, Leivo, Ashton, D'Amigo.

Now I'm sure most of us felt like those prospects would become NHL players eventually, so that's also a cautionary tale of good prospects being different from good NHLers, but that's still a massive different in quality.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: McGarnagle on August 29, 2016, 03:05:18 PM
I heart Soshnikov, who fills the gap left when Kulemin was shown the door. He's not as sturdy or defensive as Kulemin, but Soshnikov plays a pretty similar game, which I have dubbed: heavy Russian. High skill and puck possession + wrecking ball mentality.

I like shoshnikov as well, but I don't see all that much in common with Kulemin, apart from being russian. Kulemin didn't go out of his way to make big hits, nor agitate, and really didn't have much flash to his game. I see a much closer comparable to uncle leo, but with more tools on the offensive side than the defensive.

There are certainly differences, and your observation about Sosh going out of his way is a good one. I was thinking more along the lines of the largely North-South game (which is rather not traditional Russian hockey), fearless disruption style checking, and scoring touch. I think it might be a bit of an Ovechkin effect.

The PPP article (that I read after I wrote my own hot take) compares Soshnikov to a Kulemin-Grabovski-Komarov hybrid.

Actually Grabovski is a good comparable, in my mind, despite being a centreman. Hopefully he pans out to be as good as any of those guys.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 29, 2016, 03:08:25 PM
I think Pronman's criteria leaves some teams a bit short (e.g. Buffalo) in terms of 'developing player' depth since his focus is solely on 'non-NHL' depth.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 29, 2016, 03:09:25 PM
Actually Grabovski is a good comparable, in my mind, despite being a centreman. Hopefully he pans out to be as good as any of those guys.

The commentors noted some concern about Soshnikov's playstyle; based on Grabovski's health issues, he might not have much runway left to his game if he keeps playing harder but not smarter.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 29, 2016, 03:14:32 PM
I think that you could definitely make a case for Arizona deserving the top spot in the rankings, particularly if you're going to put a higher emphasis on depth and positional balance. The Leafs are really lacking on the defensive end of things. While in the past 2 months alone Arizona has acquired/drafted 3 very good prospects there (DeAngelo, Chychrun, Dineen) in addition to their impressive collection of forward talent.

But yeah in terms of just high-end talent with Matthews/Marner/Nylander the Leafs are in a league of their own. Although it'll be funny to see how much the ranking drops a year from now when all 3 of them are "graduated".

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on August 29, 2016, 05:32:17 PM
I actually think Soshnikov is much more intellingent than Grabovski to this point. Grabovski was like a Uzi locked on fire mode and out of hand, even in his personal life. I think Soshnikov is more measured, seems more intelligent and hopefully doesnt beat anyone up on the street.  With all due respect to Grabo whom I loved for those very qualities.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 29, 2016, 10:04:24 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/ranking-nhl-team-prospect-pipeline/story?id=41724093

ABC News decided to publish the whole Pronman report sans paywall, so y'all can catch it if you didn't get to earlier.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: McGarnagle on August 29, 2016, 10:38:05 PM
Thanks for the link - but in reading it, I really wonder what makes the whole article even worthwhile. Understanding Herman's point earlier in the thread about the caveats, I have hard time seeing teams - ie: Florida as the "worst" ranked team on this list, because that ranking has pretty minimal relevance to mid and long term organizational strength, what with such a young, talented core - that just happens to miss an arbitrary cutoff, that substantially benefits a particular readership bias of a rather rabid fan base.

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 29, 2016, 11:24:03 PM
Thanks for the link - but in reading it, I really wonder what makes the whole article even worthwhile. Understanding Herman's point earlier in the thread about the caveats, I have hard time seeing teams - ie: Florida as the "worst" ranked team on this list, because that ranking has pretty minimal relevance to mid and long term organizational strength, what with such a young, talented core - that just happens to miss an arbitrary cutoff, that substantially benefits a particular readership bias of a rather rabid fan base.

It's still sort of worthwhile in a limited scope. The really successful teams will be the ones that unearth gems in the latter rounds and can maintain a fairly steady high ranking on lists like these because their pipelines are so full that annual graduations don't put too much of a dent in their 'prospect' depth. In actual practice, that is a pipe dream, particularly with the way draft rankings are set.

This article's flaws is illustrative of a point Nik made upthread about strictly sub-NHL prospect ranking being a distorted picture of a team's drafting and development prowess since most high end picks spend very little post-draft time sub-NHL. The Leafs' stature on this list the past two years has had more to do with our managerial desire to suppress prospects from coming up to The Big Tire Fire coinciding nicely with Pronman's cut-off criteria.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 30, 2016, 08:58:16 AM
Thanks for the link - but in reading it, I really wonder what makes the whole article even worthwhile. Understanding Herman's point earlier in the thread about the caveats, I have hard time seeing teams - ie: Florida as the "worst" ranked team on this list, because that ranking has pretty minimal relevance to mid and long term organizational strength, what with such a young, talented core - that just happens to miss an arbitrary cutoff, that substantially benefits a particular readership bias of a rather rabid fan base.

I will say virtually every prospect ranking system out there defines prospects the same way (basically using the NHL's definition of what a rookie is), so it's not like ESPN set up a particular guideline to specifically cater to Leafs fans.

In the end I definitely think that something like PPP's T25U25 is a better way to go when trying to determine every franchise's long-term organizational strength, but prospect rankings still have value. And in the case of Florida, they probably actually roughly agree with what Pronman wrote, otherwise they wouldn't have completely re-vamped their entire scouting staff this summer. Outside of their 1st round picks (2 of whom were lottery selections), it looks like they'll be hard pressed to come up with a single NHL regular from their 2012, 2013, and 2014 drafts.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on August 30, 2016, 09:21:35 AM
Thanks for the link - but in reading it, I really wonder what makes the whole article even worthwhile. Understanding Herman's point earlier in the thread about the caveats, I have hard time seeing teams - ie: Florida as the "worst" ranked team on this list, because that ranking has pretty minimal relevance to mid and long term organizational strength, what with such a young, talented core - that just happens to miss an arbitrary cutoff, that substantially benefits a particular readership bias of a rather rabid fan base.

I will say virtually every prospect ranking system out there defines prospects the same way (basically using the NHL's definition of what a rookie is), so it's not like ESPN set up a particular guideline to specifically cater to Leafs fans.

In the end I definitely think that something like PPP's T25U25 is a better way to go when trying to determine every franchise's long-term organizational strength, but prospect rankings still have value. And in the case of Florida, they probably actually roughly agree with what Pronman wrote, otherwise they wouldn't have completely re-vamped their entire scouting staff this summer. Outside of their 1st round picks (2 of whom were lottery selections), it looks like they'll be hard pressed to come up with a single NHL regular from their 2012, 2013, and 2014 drafts.

Which is funny because, that was one of the things that has haunted the Oilers the last couple of years.  However, the Panthers have found a way to overcome it, and the Oilers, well they traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 30, 2016, 09:41:10 AM
Which is funny because, that was one of the things that has haunted the Oilers the last couple of years.  However, the Panthers have found a way to overcome it, and the Oilers, well they traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.

The Panthers were essentially built through 4 drafts. In 2010 and 2011 they had lottery selections that didn't produce elite talent (Gudbranson, Huberdeau) and a boatloat of top-90 selections that produced regular NHLers (Trotchek, Shaw, Bjugstad, Howden, Petrovic). Then 2013 and 2014 was like the opposite, those lottery selections did produce elite talent (Barkov, Ekblad) but possibly nothing after that.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on August 30, 2016, 09:51:47 AM
Which is funny because, that was one of the things that has haunted the Oilers the last couple of years.  However, the Panthers have found a way to overcome it, and the Oilers, well they traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.

The Panthers were essentially built through 4 drafts. In 2010 and 2011 they had lottery selections that didn't produce elite talent (Gudbranson, Huberdeau) and a boatloat of top-90 selections that produced regular NHLers (Trotchek, Shaw, Bjugstad, Howden, Petrovic). Then 2013 and 2014 was like the opposite, those lottery selections did produce elite talent (Barkov, Ekblad) but possibly nothing after that.

Perhaps the Leafs are following a similar pattern.  C'Mon 1st pairing d-man next year.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 30, 2016, 10:25:25 AM
PPP: 9. Kasperi Kapanen (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/8/30/12696692/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-kasperi-kapanen-is-10th)
TLN: 4. Nikita Zaitsev (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/30/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-4-nikita-zaitsev)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bullfrog on August 30, 2016, 10:49:23 AM
Well that article got me a little more excited about Zaitsev than I've been before. He's that good, huh?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 30, 2016, 11:57:55 AM
Well that article got me a little more excited about Zaitsev than I've been before. He's that good, huh?

RH Gardiner eh?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bullfrog on August 30, 2016, 12:28:58 PM
Since I'm a fan of Gardiner:

Yay!

It's going to be a lot of fun watching this team play this year.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 30, 2016, 01:55:54 PM
This is fun: Pronman's top 120 Prospects ranked
https://m.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/50bly0/pronman_top_120_prospects_ranked/

Guess who is #1!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: McGarnagle on August 30, 2016, 02:11:29 PM
This is fun: Pronman's top 120 Prospects ranked
https://m.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/50bly0/pronman_top_120_prospects_ranked/

Guess who is #1!

Ha ha. This guy is nothing more than trivia. The comments in the reddit feed were pretty funny, though.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: cabber24 on August 30, 2016, 02:13:11 PM
This is fun: Pronman's top 120 Prospects ranked
https://m.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/50bly0/pronman_top_120_prospects_ranked/

Guess who is #1!
I still prefer a C over a W any day.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Potvin29 on August 30, 2016, 08:03:06 PM
This is fun: Pronman's top 120 Prospects ranked
https://m.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/50bly0/pronman_top_120_prospects_ranked/

Guess who is #1!

Pronman clearly knows nothing.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Tigger on August 30, 2016, 08:29:09 PM
Watching some Zaitsev highlights, it seems his success or sweet spot comes with an inside game, nice, hopefully that helps shorten the learning curve coming over. He looks good.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 31, 2016, 10:15:12 AM
PPP: 8. Martin Marincin (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/31/12492456/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-martin-marincin-is-no-8)
TLN: 3. William Nylander (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/31/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-3-william-nylander)

Well well well, looks like TLN is pretty convinced by Marner's D+1 season (all the awards!), over Nylander's consistent elite production playing in men's leagues.

And good job on PPP for ranking Carrick and Zaitsev over Marincin and Kapanen.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bender on August 31, 2016, 01:00:27 PM
This is fun: Pronman's top 120 Prospects ranked
https://m.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/50bly0/pronman_top_120_prospects_ranked/

Guess who is #1!

Pronman clearly knows nothing.

I find it bizarre some of the comments trying to justify Strome's higher ranking to Marners when Marner had the best season of any CHLer.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Coco-puffs on August 31, 2016, 01:06:11 PM
This is fun: Pronman's top 120 Prospects ranked
https://m.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/50bly0/pronman_top_120_prospects_ranked/

Guess who is #1!

Pronman clearly knows nothing.

I find it bizarre some of the comments trying to justify Strome's higher ranking to Marners when Marner had the best season of any CHLer.

1.  Strome had a pretty terrific season himself, and he didn't have the linemates Marner had.

2.  Having the best season in the CHL is no guarantee of anything.... see:  Corey Locke

That said, I'd still rather have Marner over Strome.  Though, it helps that we have Matthews as our #1 center of the future.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 31, 2016, 01:18:57 PM
1.  Strome had a pretty terrific season himself, and he didn't have the linemates Marner had.

2.  Having the best season in the CHL is no guarantee of anything.... see:  Corey Locke

That said, I'd still rather have Marner over Strome.  Though, it helps that we have Matthews as our #1 center of the future.

Yeah, I don't really have a problem with that ranking. 1.98 vs 2.03 for their PPG's this season. Not a massive difference, although Marner's post-season play was much more impressive. I'm a little more surprised that he has Keller over Nylander, especially since Pronman has always been one of Nylander's biggest fans.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Potvin29 on August 31, 2016, 02:06:57 PM
1.  Strome had a pretty terrific season himself, and he didn't have the linemates Marner had.

2.  Having the best season in the CHL is no guarantee of anything.... see:  Corey Locke

That said, I'd still rather have Marner over Strome.  Though, it helps that we have Matthews as our #1 center of the future.

Yeah, I don't really have a problem with that ranking. 1.98 vs 2.03 for their PPG's this season. Not a massive difference, although Marner's post-season play was much more impressive. I'm a little more surprised that he has Keller over Nylander, especially since Pronman has always been one of Nylander's biggest fans.

Though that makes it two straight seasons that Marner has had the higher (albeit very close) PPG.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on August 31, 2016, 03:19:17 PM
It probably came down to Marner looking more and more like a winger this year, Strome plays the more valuable position and has the size factor.

Marner looks like more of a difference maker to me and his post-season gives him the edge in my eyes.

The Nylander ranking screams a little of attention seeking, especially based on what he has said previously. Again I'll put it down to him being called a winger by Babcock, probably knocked his value down a little in Pronman's eyes.

Matthews/Laine is a strange one because it appears Pronman leans heavily on centre's having more value, desperate for clicks probably.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 31, 2016, 03:35:58 PM

If you're writing behind a paywall you're probably more interested in generating content that makes people want to subscribe and keep subscribing than you are desperate for sensationalism to attract raw viewing totals.

Strome was seen as the more valuable player last year pretty widely and their very similar totals this year probably won't change that much considering the various advantages Marner had in terms of teammates.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 31, 2016, 03:41:37 PM
Pronman explained in more detail why he preferred Laine over Matthews when his draft rankings came out a few months ago, there'd be no reason for that to have changed since then.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 31, 2016, 04:40:30 PM
I have no problem with Pronman's rankings, bizarre as they might seem to Leaf fans in certain respects this time around. It's his system and his observations and his first-hand viewings. I'm just enjoying the fact we have so many prospects on this list at all.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on August 31, 2016, 05:22:10 PM
Pronman explained in more detail why he preferred Laine over Matthews when his draft rankings came out a few months ago, there'd be no reason for that to have changed since then.

ICYMI: Here (https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/4j19ew/why_patrik_laine_not_auston_matthews_is_the_top/)'s his explanation pre-draft.

Quote
PLAYERSKATINGPUCK SKILLSOFF. IQDEF. IQSHOTPHYSICAL GAME
Auston Matthews607060556555
Patrik Laine506570457565
Connor McDavid757575605545
Jack Eichel606565606055
Sam Reinhart506070655545
Nathan McKinnon806560505550

This is the table that's all mashed up in that copy/paste that I pulled out into more of a table. The average scores (if each category was weighted equally) aren't listed, but Pronman has them in this order: McDavid, Laine, Matthews/Eichel, McKinnon, Reinhart.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 01, 2016, 09:32:50 AM
PPP: 7. Connor Carrick (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/9/1/12709786/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-7-connor-carrick)
TLN: 2. Mitch Marner (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/9/1/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-2-mitch-marner)

I like Connor Carrick, and I'm glad the Capitals flubbed his development a bit so that we ended up getting him for a song. His flaws are very fixable, and I think he has the potential to be a top 4 D-man. I see hints of Vatanen, but not as polished yet on the defensive side (because he's usually taking it to the other zone).

Mitch Marner has played the past two OHL seasons on Easy Mode. 3 min shifts because his engine can go there regularly. Highlight dangles and passes and goals because the rest of the skaters on the ice are 4 steps behind him (usually literally, not just mentally). He keeps track of every player on the ice and where they are going (and where they want to go) and breaks down the opposition by finding their natural seams and gaps in coverage. He has the wheels and hands to do what his brain asks (similar to Matthews).

Watching him play, sometimes he looks pass first even when he himself is the more surefire option. I think this might be because the game was too easy for him and he wanted to give his teammates opportunities.

Will it translate to the NHL? I think so. There'll be a learning curve for the next year or two, but he'll get there. Marner doesn't know how to give up.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 01, 2016, 09:55:35 AM
Pronman explained in more detail why he preferred Laine over Matthews when his draft rankings came out a few months ago, there'd be no reason for that to have changed since then.

ICYMI: Here (https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/4j19ew/why_patrik_laine_not_auston_matthews_is_the_top/)'s his explanation pre-draft.

Quote
PLAYERSKATINGPUCK SKILLSOFF. IQDEF. IQSHOTPHYSICAL GAME
Auston Matthews607060556555
Patrik Laine506570457565
Connor McDavid757575605545
Jack Eichel606565606055
Sam Reinhart506070655545
Nathan McKinnon806560505550

This is the table that's all mashed up in that copy/paste that I pulled out into more of a table. The average scores (if each category was weighted equally) aren't listed, but Pronman has them in this order: McDavid, Laine, Matthews/Eichel, McKinnon, Reinhart.


"Higher floor" (Matthews) or "higher ceiling" (Laine).  Which would you have chosen?

In spite of Pronman's comparisons using certain analytical data, I believe that Matthews was and is the best choice that will befitt the Leafs.  True, Laine has that something special that Matthews doesn't, and Matthews has that something that Laine doesn't.  But, for the Leafs and considering their needs, plus the fact that they harbour an array of smart offensive producers in Nylander, Soshnukov, etc., etc., Matthews' unique skill levels as a centre is something they lack in that true sense of "something special".

So, again, Pronman's comparables, while appreciated, cannot be applied to the Matthews/Laine category as pertaining to the Leafs per se.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 01, 2016, 10:09:27 AM
"Higher floor" (Matthews) or "higher ceiling" (Laine).  Which would you have chosen?

In spite of Pronman's comparisons using certain analytical data, I believe that Matthews was and is the best choice that will befitt the Leafs.  True, Laine has that something special that Matthews doesn't, and Matthews has that something that Laine doesn't.  But, for the Leafs and considering their needs, plus the fact that they harbour an array of smart offensive producers in Nylander, Soshnukov, etc., etc., Matthews' unique skill levels as a centre is something they lack in that true sense of "something special".

So, again, Pronman's comparables, while appreciated, cannot be applied to the Matthews/Laine category as pertaining to the Leafs per se.

Yup. Matthews is the best pick for the Leafs. Laine is the better (potential) player overall in Pronman's researched opinion. Most draft ranking prognosticators ignore the draft order when forming their lists because the order can be fluid.

Personally, I think Matthews does more for his team than Laine (especially during a scoring slump). Matthews doesn't have Laine's electric scoring dazzle because he is actually patrolling the ice for opportunity, rather than simply waiting in his go-to spot for his teammates to feed him the puck.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: jdh1 on September 01, 2016, 01:47:38 PM
If Matthews becomes a point a game player in his prime years,that will fill a important position on the team,that's being lacking for years.I'll take the center position over winger.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 01, 2016, 02:36:15 PM

Not that the issue of Matthews vs. Laine means much to me, I'm good with the decision the Leafs made, but it does seem like the night of the draft lottery is the night some people went from "I'm really looking forward to Nylander and Marner as our C's of the future" to "Marner and Nylander can't possibly play C at the next level".
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 01, 2016, 02:48:07 PM
I think that Marner playing centre was always a bit of a pipe dream by Leafs fans (myself included). Maybe it was brought on somewhat by the fact that despite Marner's incredible talent lots of fans had their eyes on a 1C (Strome) or 1D (Hanifn) that year, so to come away with a winger was a tad disappointing. And of course the Leafs fuelled it themselves by keeping the door open a little bit. But when he returned to the OHL post-draft and the Knights kept him on the wing I think that really sealed the deal. I really can't think of any player to go from primarily playing the wing in junior to being a full-time centre in the NHL.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 01, 2016, 03:04:58 PM

Anyway, the positional need argument strikes me as being as bogus now as it was when people were making it for Hanifin vs. Marner. The Leafs aren't in a hurry and don't have a surplus of talent anywhere. If Laine were really and truly the better prospect, he's the smarter pick. I just don't think that's true in this case.

Fun fact: post lockout the Hart Trophy breakdown by position is 5 for Centers, 5 for Wingers and 1 for Goalies.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: mr grieves on September 01, 2016, 10:58:19 PM
Steve Dangle posted about hating lists, wanting to swap them for tiers. In so far as tiers make us think about how to define cut-offs and broader categories, think they're worth doing. Here's my shot at it:

Forwards
Tier 1 -- projects as superstar/ franchise forward = Matthews
Tier 2 -- projects as star/ top-line scoring forward = Marner, Nylander
Tier 3 -- projects as useful middle-6 contributor = Brown, Johnson, Kapanen, Leivo [tho I think he might be the new Frattin]
Tier 4 -- looks good, too little pro hockey to project = Bracco, Timashov
Tier 5 -- projects as bottom-6 NHLer = Gauthier, Grundstrum, Hyman, Korshkov, Leipsic, Lindberg, Soshnikov, Rychel 
Tier 6 -- no idea what this player might be = Brooks, Dzierkals, Lindgren, Piccinich, others

Defensemen
Tier 1 -- projects as #1 / franchise Dman = [none]
Tier 2 -- projects as top-pairing Dman = [none]
Tier 3 -- projects as top-four Dman = Carrick, Zaitsev
Tier 4 -- looks top-4, too little pro hockey to say = Dermott, Nielsen
Tier 5 -- projects as bottom-pairing NHLer = Corrado, Loov, Valiev
Tier 6 -- no idea what this player might be = J.D. Greenway, others

link: http://theleafsnation.com/2016/9/1/the-prospect-pyramid
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bullfrog on September 02, 2016, 08:24:18 AM
for a sobering thought, you should do that for the goalie prospects.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 02, 2016, 09:05:33 AM
PPP: 6. Nikita Zaitsev (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/9/2/12720998/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-nikita-zaitsev-debuts-at-number-6)
TLN: 1. Auston Matthews (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/9/2/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-1-auston-matthews)

I have a hard time assessing Zaitsev since I've only seen his highlights, which are basically just him scoring from everywhere, or threading a pass for a tap in. What are his retrieval instincts like? How is his gap control through the neutral zone? Skating is good to great. Offensive instincts are quite polished already.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 02, 2016, 09:11:35 AM
PPP: 6. Nikita Zaitsev (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/9/2/12720998/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-nikita-zaitsev-debuts-at-number-6)
TLN: 1. Auston Matthews

From the PPP article:

Quote
Suffice it to say, I see no reason to be worried about Zaitsev's probable output in the NHL offensively.  At the lower end he projects as a top 90 D man in the NHL (top 3) offensively. If he hits his projected totals from the past two years he would be providing top pair offense, and if he continues to develop as an NHLer he's going to be an All-Star.

I mean I'm hopeful Zaitsev turns into a legit NHLer and from all the scouting reports and stuff he sounds like a really promising player, but it seems like we're going into this season with awfully high expectations for him and his career.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: sneakyray on September 02, 2016, 09:36:05 AM
PPP: 6. Nikita Zaitsev (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/9/2/12720998/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-nikita-zaitsev-debuts-at-number-6)
TLN: 1. Auston Matthews

From the PPP article:

Quote
Suffice it to say, I see no reason to be worried about Zaitsev's probable output in the NHL offensively.  At the lower end he projects as a top 90 D man in the NHL (top 3) offensively. If he hits his projected totals from the past two years he would be providing top pair offense, and if he continues to develop as an NHLer he's going to be an All-Star.

I mean I'm hopeful Zaitsev turns into a legit NHLer and from all the scouting reports and stuff he sounds like a really promising player, but it seems like we're going into this season with awfully high expectations for him and his career.

I remember stephen burtch on twitter talking about his nhl/khl comparables and that he should pretty comfortably be a top nhl point producing d-man due to his shot totals...its all analytics  ;)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Frank E on September 02, 2016, 09:41:06 AM

I mean I'm hopeful Zaitsev turns into a legit NHLer and from all the scouting reports and stuff he sounds like a really promising player, but it seems like we're going into this season with awfully high expectations for him and his career.

What are you talking about?  High expectations for Leaf prospects by Leaf fans?

That's ridiculous. 

Zaitsev will probably end up being a cross between Ray Bourque and Vladimir Konstantinov...but he ain't no Nik Lidstrom.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 02, 2016, 10:29:41 AM
TLN list complete.

PPP list down to the final 5, which, based on their ranking tendancy to favour pro experience with about half their voters, I'm guessing might be:
5. Connor Brown
4. Mitch Marner
3. William Nylander
2. Morgan Rielly
1. Auston Matthews
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Zee on September 03, 2016, 04:46:42 PM

I mean I'm hopeful Zaitsev turns into a legit NHLer and from all the scouting reports and stuff he sounds like a really promising player, but it seems like we're going into this season with awfully high expectations for him and his career.

What are you talking about?  High expectations for Leaf prospects by Leaf fans?

That's ridiculous. 

Zaitsev will probably end up being a cross between Ray Bourque and Vladimir Konstantinov...but he ain't no Nik Lidstrom.
Wonder what the plan is for Connor Brown. He ripped it up in Junior, looked pretty decent in a few games with the Leafs. Nobody really seems to talk about him that much.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 03, 2016, 05:02:12 PM
Wonder what the plan is for Connor Brown. He ripped it up in Junior, looked pretty decent in a few games with the Leafs. Nobody really seems to talk about him that much.

I get the sense that most people see him as a boom or bust type. Someone who might turn into an effective NHL scorer but could be a tweener.

If I had to guess I think he'll spend a good amount of time in the team's bottom 6.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 05, 2016, 09:03:32 AM
PPP: 5. Connor Brown (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/9/5/12750456/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-top-5-kicks-off-with-connor-brown)

His waiver exempt status will be what likely starts him in the AHL, as one of the Big 3 on the Marlies (Kapanen, Johnson). I expect two of these three to be over-ripened bananas by the deadline and will get the call.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 05, 2016, 10:44:27 AM

Brown not being on the team to start the year would really be one of those things where you can't help but feel the team has maybe over-thought themselves into the roster as currently constructed. Right now there are too many guys on the team who don't figure to be in the team's long term plans and way too many guys projected to start on the Marlies that should probably be with the big club.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on September 05, 2016, 11:37:17 AM
True dat Nik, Brown and several of the others should be on the big team and have mentorship from JVR, Komarov and Laitch.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 05, 2016, 11:50:31 AM
True dat Nik, Brown and several of the others should be on the big team and have mentorship from JVR, Komarov and Laitch.

First of all, true dat? Come on.

Second, Komarov is pretty high on my list of guys who probably shouldn't be on the roster. Laich is also albeit I think the team did well in that deal and don't mind it as much.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: caveman on September 05, 2016, 12:26:37 PM
Some of these guys need a chance to perform at the NHL level now...can this management team make the moves to do it ? Short of giving away players with some value to create room ? Training camp should be interesting...
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on September 05, 2016, 04:26:23 PM
I do that in honour of my son Nikos.  Come on Komarov is a favorite of Babcock and shows the way by grit and effort. And he can put the puck in the net
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 05, 2016, 09:43:08 PM

There are "reasons" for lots of guys to be on the roster. But somehow we've wound up in a spot where there are 9 or 10 roster spots just among forwards for guys who've been around a while and aren't likely to be around long term. You shouldn't keep Komarov and Laich and Martin around for effectively the same purpose while we're talking about sending 22 or 23 year old prospects back to the AHL.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on September 06, 2016, 09:11:06 AM
Agreed thats why I would love to see them move out Bozak and Lupul and perhaps trade JVR for a great pick.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 06, 2016, 09:13:04 AM
PPP: 4. Morgan Rielly (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/9/6/12467708/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-morgan-rielly-stars-at-no-4)

Colour me slightly surprised they went there, but this is reflective of my own list.
Burtch even had Rielly 5th after his Zaitsev vote.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppWoV0gvErE[/youtube]

I think this is pretty much why we're generally a little bit more down on Rielly lately, slightly unfairly to him:
Quote
Bottom line: playing off-handed is really challenging, and has a serious impact on a defender's shot differentials.  Rielly's extended time as a lefty playing right-side is very probably hurting his shots against.  Partner and playing side are at least part of what's wrong for Rielly, and if we can find a suitable RHD partner for him, as Arvind suggests, that will go a long way towards fixing things.

Combined with his position being harder to learn, the Leafs bungling his development early on, and playing through the Carlyle years, we definitely haven't seen peak-Rielly yet, but it looks like it'll be raelly good.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 06, 2016, 09:47:55 AM
Agreed thats why I would love to see them move out Bozak and Lupul and perhaps trade JVR for a great pick.

Best case scenarios, like being able to move Lupul's deal, are lovely to think about I'm sure but realistically the team had to make smarter decisions regarding their more movable pieces in order to fit more young players into their bottom 6.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 06, 2016, 01:15:28 PM
Do you think our weird roster decisions and general Marlie suppression might have something to do with the expansion draft?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 06, 2016, 01:27:39 PM
Do you think our weird roster decisions and general Marlie suppression might have something to do with the expansion draft?

It could, I suppose, but given that you lose one player at most in the draft it's really hard for me to see a scenario where the relative edge you gain there is worth it.

I think there are more straightforward reasons for why they've built the team as they have. Also, I've got a half-formed theory that speaks to the amorphous management structure and how this team is a result of it.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 06, 2016, 01:37:32 PM
Do you think our weird roster decisions and general Marlie suppression might have something to do with the expansion draft?

In what way? We already know who is and isn't exempt from the draft. Where guys like Soshnikov, Hyman, Brown, and Leipsic play won't effect that at this point.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 06, 2016, 01:50:41 PM
Do you think our weird roster decisions and general Marlie suppression might have something to do with the expansion draft?

In what way? We already know who is and isn't exempt from the draft. Where guys like Soshnikov, Hyman, Brown, and Leipsic play won't effect that at this point.

It could, I suppose, but given that you lose one player at most in the draft it's really hard for me to see a scenario where the relative edge you gain there is worth it.

Less about protecting those graduate-ready prospects, and more about having enough middling players fulfilling the draft requirements to choose from, considering each candidate has to reach 40 games played (or 70 the past two). Sort of taking advantage of this projected water treading season by loading up on chaff to draw fire.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 06, 2016, 01:57:06 PM
Less about protecting those graduate-ready prospects, and more about having enough middling players fulfilling the draft requirements to choose from, considering each candidate has to reach 40 games played (or 70 the past two). Sort of taking advantage of this projected water treading season by loading up on chaff to draw fire.

I don't think it's that each exposed player has to reach that mark, just that a few do

Quote
Player Exposure Requirements:
* All Clubs must meet the following minimum requirements regarding players exposed for selection in the Expansion Draft:

i) One defenseman who is a) under contract in 2017-18 and b) played in 40 or more NHL games the prior season OR played in 70 or more NHL games in the prior two seasons.

ii) Two forwards who are a) under contract in 2017-18 and b) played in 40 or more NHL games the prior season OR played in 70 or more NHL games in the prior two seasons.

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-expansion-draft-rules/c-281010592 (https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-expansion-draft-rules/c-281010592)

It seems like the Leafs would pretty comfortably hit that requirement regardless so long as you've got a couple of scrub regulars around. The Leafs will lose their best unprotected player so having a bunch of bad unprotected players doesn't seem to impact who they lose one way or the other.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 06, 2016, 02:01:21 PM
And most of the "middling" players that we have who will potentially be taking playing time from younger players (Michalek, Greening, Laich) are UFAs after this season, so they won't help us reach any requirements for the draft unless the Leafs re-sign them (which they better not).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 06, 2016, 02:03:37 PM
I don't think it's that each exposed player has to reach that mark, just that a few do

Quote
Player Exposure Requirements:
* All Clubs must meet the following minimum requirements regarding players exposed for selection in the Expansion Draft:

i) One defenseman who is a) under contract in 2017-18 and b) played in 40 or more NHL games the prior season OR played in 70 or more NHL games in the prior two seasons.

ii) Two forwards who are a) under contract in 2017-18 and b) played in 40 or more NHL games the prior season OR played in 70 or more NHL games in the prior two seasons.

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-expansion-draft-rules/c-281010592 (https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-expansion-draft-rules/c-281010592)

It seems like the Leafs would pretty comfortably hit that requirement regardless so long as you've got a couple of scrub regulars around. The Leafs will lose their best unprotected player so having a bunch of bad unprotected players doesn't seem to impact who they lose one way or the other.

Oh yeah? That changes things nicely then. The only conceivable reason I can think of for a team to load up on scrubs would be to steer Vegas into picking a higher cap hit player who is servicably better (i.e. Bozak or Lupul).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 06, 2016, 02:07:07 PM
And most of the "middling" players that we have who will potentially be taking playing time from younger players (Michalek, Greening, Laich) are UFAs after this season, so they won't help us reach any requirements for the draft unless the Leafs re-sign them (which they better not).

Those three I see as a cost-of-doing-business type of contract. Their remaining utility is as character development and straw ceilings for prospects to bust through. I am hoping they get vastly outplayed and at least two are buried in the minors so their cap savings could pay for Zaitsev, Corrado and a couple of team meals. I don't even care if no picks are recouped.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 07, 2016, 09:10:06 AM
PPP: 3. Mitch Marner (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/9/7/12573936/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-mitch-marner-moves-up-to-no-3)

Nylander's pro experience (and success) is what kept Marner down to number 3. Really excited to see how Marner's game translates to the NHL and Babcock's system. Babcock's defensive system is very straight forward, and very positionally driven, all with the goal for creating opportunities and opening up options for our more creative players driving play towards the opposing net. Marner embodies that type of game.

I liked this note:
Quote
Is Marner a centre or a winger, though? He played a lot of centre on the Knights before his final year, but he is almost certainly going to end up at wing on the Leafs, just given that the competition for the top centre's job is a little tougher. But as a winger capable of playmaking in the offensive zone, like Nylander is as well, no one should expect him to be a passenger on any line, not once he gets his skates under him.

There is a meaningful difference between the two positions. Centres make more money, get drafted higher, have more trade value and are often considered the backbone of a team because of their greater responsibilities on the ice.

But the difference is shrinking. Here is Carolina Hurricanes' coach (and former Mike Babcock protégé) Bill Peters talking about a similar "problem" he has.

Quote
"I know exactly where I see Teravainen slotting in. I have Aho, Lindholm and Teravainen," said Peters. "Now, where they go, I don’t know. Lindy played a little center for us last year, at the end of the year, and was very good. Teravainen was very successful in Chicago playing the off-wing, as a right winger. He also has some ability to play center. I think that’s going to be a line. That way, one guy can take faceoffs on the right side in the ‘D’ zone and the other guy can take faceoffs on the left side in the ‘D’ zone and all three are responsible defensively.
So, the Leafs have Auston Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Nazem Kadri and James van Riemsdyk who will all, eventually, be high level, playmaking, goal scoring forwards, four of whom have experience at centre. That seems like a problem that isn't a problem at all.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: sneakyray on September 07, 2016, 09:34:54 AM
Babcock talked about having way too many guys for spots on the team and I think the leafs are getting there. 

I really don't see michalek or laich or greening as counting towards that.  I take Babcock to mean having more young and in their prime players than you need.

So I think that saying its a bad thing if brown isn't on the team...well I don't necessarily agree.  At face value it should mean that he was ouplayed and so he starts in the minors.

that being said I do feel that this might be the last year we see some players playing in order to be traded or just to keep the younger, waiver eligible on the club.  But I also wouldn't be surprised if a guy like michalek is "injured" or if some of the other short term vets mysteriously disappear and can't play for most of the season.

So for me, 2017/2018 is the season where a middling veteran shouldn't make the team over a guy that needs pro experience.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bullfrog on September 07, 2016, 11:34:17 AM
Lupul needs 24 games this year to hit those marks, though given his injury history and cap hit, not sure the expansion team would be interested. Bozak, Martin, and Komarov fit the bill.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 07, 2016, 12:41:46 PM
Quote
Mitch Marner racing back on defence and sprawling out to block a shot is the best thing I've seen at summer skate so far
— Kristen Shilton (@kristen_shilton) September 7, 2016

Sounds familiar.

Quote
His assistant coach Rob Simpson had this to say in that same report (http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/juniors/knights-marner-proves-doubters-wrong/):
Quote
Earlier this season, London was down 2–1, pushing to tie things up, when four players got caught deep in the offensive end. Marner was on the opposing team’s goal line when a two-on-one materialized the other way. He backchecked, caught up, slid from the hash marks and deflected the puck away. "That’s something you don’t always see from high-end players, that commitment to defence. It shows his will to win," Simpson says.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 08, 2016, 09:08:51 AM
PPP: 2. William Nylander (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/9/8/12659008/top-25-under-25-william-nylander-is-no-2)

With Phil no longer in Blue and White, Nylander will be picking up the slack on filthy snipes. Watch him float into the top of the circles like a gliding ninja and just sling it as he crosses the middle.

What is lacking (and what keeps him from Number 1) are his defense and probably his lackadaisical appearance on the ice without the puck. I'd say his stickchecking is underrated, and he just doesn't look like he's putting effort in, even when he's blazing past other skaters for a casual looking takeaway, compared to the head-down all-out effort that Hyman looks like he puts in all the time, or the waterbug skippy stride of Kapanen, or the wrecking ball game that Soshnikov plays.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 09, 2016, 09:40:10 AM
PPP: 1. Auston Matthews (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/9/9/12782046/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-auston-matthews-unanimously-named-no-1)

Duh.

Not quite as flashy as some other players out there, but so very consistently involved and quietly making plays happen that would have otherwise fizzled out due to his exquisite puck handling.

He not only sees and reads the game extremely quickly, but he has the skills to actually pull off a lot of what he envisions himself doing. If something turns out to be not-doable, he then goes and puts in the work to make his body capable.

What does he need to work on? Adjusting to the new NHL level of competition won't take long. From what I've seen, he just needs to figure out (as quickly as possible) that he is actually a level beyond most of the league and just roll with it. Off the ice, he can be as aw-shucks humble as he wants to be, but on the ice, I'd like to see him just put on a clinic and put up a stoic celly.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4PpYN_eCbQ[/youtube]
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 09, 2016, 02:36:19 PM
We know what Matthews can do, but to Leafs fans two words count:  NHL-ready.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on September 12, 2016, 12:35:49 AM
PPP: 23. Carl Grundstrom (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2016/8/10/12392012/maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-carl-grundstrom-debuts-at-23)
TLN: 18. Adam Brooks (http://theleafsnation.com/2016/8/10/tln-top-20-prospects-2016-18-adam-brooks)

This is normally the boring part of the list, where those long-term projects are shelved. To an extent, they still are, but they seem to have higher potential this time around than years past.

Not 100% sure what TLN is doing with their list though.

A decent interview with John Paddock about Adam Brooks:

Adam Brooks: A Q&A with Regina Pats head coach John Paddock (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/09/12/adam-brooks-a-qa-with-john-paddock/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on September 12, 2016, 05:15:18 AM
"Matthews grabbed his own hockey bag and started to walk off. The equipment manager had to remind him that people are paid to do that for him"

Adorable.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 12, 2016, 09:24:34 AM
Matthews: https://gfycat.com/AcidicJovialFoxterrier

(https://giant.gfycat.com/AcidicJovialFoxterrier.gif)
Click the link to actually see it.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on September 12, 2016, 09:48:27 AM
A decent interview with John Paddock about Adam Brooks:

Adam Brooks: A Q&A with Regina Pats head coach John Paddock (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/09/12/adam-brooks-a-qa-with-john-paddock/)

Getting some Connor Brown + overlooked Mitch Marner vibes from this one...
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Frank E on September 13, 2016, 01:23:23 PM
Granted, it's super early, but Button's got a ranking for the 2017 draft up:

http://www.tsn.ca/craig-s-list-nolan-patrick-stands-above-the-rest-1.566071

Problem I see is that after Liljegren, there isn't another high pick defenseman until #17.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: bustaheims on September 13, 2016, 01:33:41 PM
Problem I see is that after Liljegren, there isn't another high pick defenseman until #17.

That wouldn't be super unusual, but, as you said, it's super-early. Also, it's Button, so, who knows?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on September 13, 2016, 01:53:11 PM
Granted, it's super early, but Button's got a ranking for the 2017 draft up:

http://www.tsn.ca/craig-s-list-nolan-patrick-stands-above-the-rest-1.566071

Problem I see is that after Liljegren, there isn't another high pick defenseman until #17.

But there are a couple of goalies.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 13, 2016, 02:25:27 PM

Too early for this sort of thing but I've seen some rankings that had Cal Foote in the top 10. Big guy, right handed shot, had a decent offensive season last year
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: bustaheims on September 13, 2016, 02:57:27 PM
Too early for this sort of thing but I've seen some rankings that had Cal Foote in the top 10. Big guy, right handed shot, had a decent offensive season last year

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Nicolas Hague ranked higher in other places, based on his size and some decent production.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 13, 2016, 03:15:39 PM
Too early for this sort of thing but I've seen some rankings that had Cal Foote in the top 10. Big guy, right handed shot, had a decent offensive season last year

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Nicolas Hague ranked higher in other places, based on his size and some decent production.

And while neither of their numbers look super impressive, worth going back and looking at the jump a lot of top D prospects took going from D-1 to their draft year.

Ekblad  .63 ppg - .91 ppg
Rielly    .43 ppg - 1.00 ppg
Dougie Hamilton .25 ppg - .87 ppg
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: mr grieves on September 13, 2016, 03:51:57 PM
Granted, it's super early, but Button's got a ranking for the 2017 draft up:

http://www.tsn.ca/craig-s-list-nolan-patrick-stands-above-the-rest-1.566071

Problem I see is that after Liljegren, there isn't another high pick defenseman until #17.

That doesn't seem unusual. And, anyway, how many high-end defensemen are really drafted in the top half of the first round?

If you came up with a list of the 30 or so best defensemen in the league, and dropped the kids under 23 (high picks are who are great out of the gate) and folks over 28 (often low picks who take a long time to develop [e.g. Stralman]), then I think you'll find plenty of guys who established themselves as high-end defensemen by their mid-20s were drafted in the mid-/late-1st round, oftentimes as late as the second.

I mean, would be nice to land a top-3 pick stud defenseman, but a team with Matthews, Nylander, and Marner is going to probably bust out of the basement -- even if not much past that, in their first year.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 13, 2016, 04:29:45 PM
I mean, would be nice to land a top-3 pick stud defenseman, but a team with Matthews, Nylander, and Marner is going to probably bust out of the basement -- even if not much past that, in their first year.

I'm not saying it's impossible but there's a pretty good chance you're talking about 3 forwards who don't crack 50 points.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: mr grieves on September 13, 2016, 04:59:54 PM
I mean, would be nice to land a top-3 pick stud defenseman, but a team with Matthews, Nylander, and Marner is going to probably bust out of the basement -- even if not much past that, in their first year.

I'm not saying it's impossible but there's a pretty good chance you're talking about 3 forwards who don't crack 50 points.

I'm not saying it's a sure thing, but I think it's more likely than not that Matthews and Nylander crack 50 points. If JvR is healthy and Kadri's playing with a reasonably talented player, good chance they're both over 50. How much of an improvement do you really think it'll take for them to be drafting 5-10?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 13, 2016, 05:34:36 PM

I'm not saying it's a sure thing, but I think it's more likely than not that Matthews and Nylander crack 50 points. If JvR is healthy and Kadri's playing with a reasonably talented player, good chance they're both over 50. How much of an improvement do you really think it'll take for them to be drafting 5-10?

The Leafs last year were at -48 goal differential. The #5 team, Calgary, was at -33. The #10 team was at -24. So....they probably have to improve differential by 10-15 to get to #5, 20-25 to get to #10.

A 50 point rookie season is a pretty big deal. Some pretty high profile young players haven't hit that total and the ones who have were mainly thrust into the sorts of roles that the Leafs rookies very well might not be in. I wouldn't assume it's likely for any of them.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: mr grieves on September 13, 2016, 06:32:50 PM

I'm not saying it's a sure thing, but I think it's more likely than not that Matthews and Nylander crack 50 points. If JvR is healthy and Kadri's playing with a reasonably talented player, good chance they're both over 50. How much of an improvement do you really think it'll take for them to be drafting 5-10?

The Leafs last year were at -48 goal differential. The #5 team, Calgary, was at -33. The #10 team was at -24. So....they probably have to improve differential by 10-15 to get to #5, 20-25 to get to #10.

A 50 point rookie season is a pretty big deal. Some pretty high profile young players haven't hit that total and the ones who have were mainly thrust into the sorts of roles that the Leafs rookies very well might not be in. I wouldn't assume it's likely for any of them.

For an eighteen or nineteen year old coming out of junior, sure. But Nylander's 20 and Matthews is as old as Eichel, has been playing in men's leagues. Not saying it's an easy or sure thing, but the projections I've seen put them over 50, so would say it's more likely they hit it than they don't.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 13, 2016, 06:53:19 PM
For an eighteen or nineteen year old coming out of junior, sure. But Nylander's 20 and Matthews is as old as Eichel, has been playing in men's leagues. Not saying it's an easy or sure thing, but the projections I've seen put them over 50, so would say it's more likely they hit it than they don't.

50 point rookie seasons are rare for any rookie. Mark Scheifele was in his draft +3 year as a rookie and had 34 points in 63 games and not, I think we'd agree, because he was a bad player without potential. Barkov was in the league two years before he cracked the mark. Sam Reinhart didn't get there, etc.

Score 50 points and you're effectively in Calder nomination territory. It seems pretty unlikely the Leafs will get three guys there. Obviously I can't speak to the projections you're talking about without seeing them but considering that Matthews is going to start as the team's #3 C and the other guys aren't guaranteed to start any higher it's going to be a tall order for any of them.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 13, 2016, 08:27:00 PM

Also, on subject of the team improving and leaving the bottom 5 I think sometimes we look at these things just in isolation. Like the Leafs improvements can be figured just be looking at last year's roster.

But the league is designed to push teams towards the middle. So all teams on the bottom will get better. Paradoxically, that's what makes it hard for teams to climb out of the gutter.

Whether the rookies score 50 points or not aside we have to acknowledge the way other teams have also improved. The Leafs' rivals for the bottom last year will all be adding big pieces and will see their key pieces mature. I don't want to say that the Leafs, of the bottom feeders, improved the least but I don't think there's another team in the bottom 10 where you can't make a case for them improving just as much as the Leafs might.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: sneakyray on September 15, 2016, 01:33:04 PM

Also, on subject of the team improving and leaving the bottom 5 I think sometimes we look at these things just in isolation. Like the Leafs improvements can be figured just be looking at last year's roster.

But the league is designed to push teams towards the middle. So all teams on the bottom will get better. Paradoxically, that's what makes it hard for teams to climb out of the gutter.

Whether the rookies score 50 points or not aside we have to acknowledge the way other teams have also improved. The Leafs' rivals for the bottom last year will all be adding big pieces and will see their key pieces mature. I don't want to say that the Leafs, of the bottom feeders, improved the least but I don't think there's another team in the bottom 10 where you can't make a case for them improving just as much as the Leafs might.

but what about some of the teams in the upper half of the league falling?

For instance...is this the year that detroit falls off a cliff?  what if chara is more awful this year and backes shows his age,  what if lundquist finally starts slowing down, what if montreal doesn't make the improvements that most people think they will this year, although it seems like philadelphia has figured things out they still have no goalie, is ottawa any better than last year?

anyways, my point being it might not have to be the bottom dwellers that the leafs leave in the dust but if 2 or three of the bottom dwellers climb at the expense of falling middling teams thats how they move up.

I mean, 2 years ago the kings missed the playoffs, that allowed winnipeg to make it.

is it that crazy to see detroit fallin out and having toronto make it instead?  Alot would have to right for toronto but its not comlpetely unthinkable.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 16, 2016, 11:54:35 PM
but what about some of the teams in the upper half of the league falling?

For instance...is this the year that detroit falls off a cliff?  what if chara is more awful this year and backes shows his age,  what if lundquist finally starts slowing down, what if montreal doesn't make the improvements that most people think they will this year, although it seems like philadelphia has figured things out they still have no goalie, is ottawa any better than last year?

anyways, my point being it might not have to be the bottom dwellers that the leafs leave in the dust but if 2 or three of the bottom dwellers climb at the expense of falling middling teams thats how they move up.

I mean, 2 years ago the kings missed the playoffs, that allowed winnipeg to make it.

is it that crazy to see detroit fallin out and having toronto make it instead?  Alot would have to right for toronto but its not comlpetely unthinkable.

Just to start with, I think you're wrong about the issues in Philly. Steve Mason, in his time there, has a .922 save percentage and Neuvirth is an excellent backup. Last year the Flyers were 8th in the league in Save Percentage and were middle of the pack in goals against. Their offense was a bigger problem(22nd in goals for).

As to the general bulk of your point, I think there's some merit there. Yes, some teams that are good will be less good and some teams that were bad will be less bad. That's what I mean about everyone being pushed to the middle. So, sure, it's easy to see Detroit potentially dropping out of a playoff spot but will they be markedly worse than the Leafs? There's no real reason to think that. Same with Boston. Teams don't tend to go from pretty good to completely terrible in the course of one year. Remember, the Leafs are looking to dig themselves out from the very bottom of the league.

I mean, look at your Kings example. Yes, the Kings missed the playoffs that one year but it's not because they fell off a cliff. Their record in the year they missed the playoffs was identical, even the exact same goal differential, as it was the year they won the cup in 11-12. They were only five points worse than the other year they'd won the cup. This year, they were only 7 points better. Those aren't wild swings. We're talking about the difference of a few games a year. Teams tend to find an equilibrium.

I'm sure there are some outliers where teams have gone from pretty good to terrible in a year or the other way around but I don't think that really changes what I was saying which is that you can't look at a team's improvements in isolation. Detroit has some reasons to be optimistic too(Larkin, Mrazek).

I'm not saying that the Leafs will for sure finish one place or another, just that the sorts of improvements we're talking about usually aren't immediate things. The Leafs have been sinking for a few years now, digging out of the hole will probably be a slow process. The Leafs will, just like last year, have some company at the bottom but it will take some time before they're clearly better than other teams.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: sneakyray on September 17, 2016, 08:43:34 AM
but what about some of the teams in the upper half of the league falling?

For instance...is this the year that detroit falls off a cliff?  what if chara is more awful this year and backes shows his age,  what if lundquist finally starts slowing down, what if montreal doesn't make the improvements that most people think they will this year, although it seems like philadelphia has figured things out they still have no goalie, is ottawa any better than last year?

anyways, my point being it might not have to be the bottom dwellers that the leafs leave in the dust but if 2 or three of the bottom dwellers climb at the expense of falling middling teams thats how they move up.

I mean, 2 years ago the kings missed the playoffs, that allowed winnipeg to make it.

is it that crazy to see detroit fallin out and having toronto make it instead?  Alot would have to right for toronto but its not comlpetely unthinkable.

Just to start with, I think you're wrong about the issues in Philly. Steve Mason, in his time there, has a .922 save percentage and Neuvirth is an excellent backup. Last year the Flyers were 8th in the league in Save Percentage and were middle of the pack in goals against. Their offense was a bigger problem(22nd in goals for).

As to the general bulk of your point, I think there's some merit there. Yes, some teams that are good will be less good and some teams that were bad will be less bad. That's what I mean about everyone being pushed to the middle. So, sure, it's easy to see Detroit potentially dropping out of a playoff spot but will they be markedly worse than the Leafs? There's no real reason to think that. Same with Boston. Teams don't tend to go from pretty good to completely terrible in the course of one year. Remember, the Leafs are looking to dig themselves out from the very bottom of the league.

I mean, look at your Kings example. Yes, the Kings missed the playoffs that one year but it's not because they fell off a cliff. Their record in the year they missed the playoffs was identical, even the exact same goal differential, as it was the year they won the cup in 11-12. They were only five points worse than the other year they'd won the cup. This year, they were only 7 points better. Those aren't wild swings. We're talking about the difference of a few games a year. Teams tend to find an equilibrium.

I'm sure there are some outliers where teams have gone from pretty good to terrible in a year or the other way around but I don't think that really changes what I was saying which is that you can't look at a team's improvements in isolation. Detroit has some reasons to be optimistic too(Larkin, Mrazek).

I'm not saying that the Leafs will for sure finish one place or another, just that the sorts of improvements we're talking about usually aren't immediate things. The Leafs have been sinking for a few years now, digging out of the hole will probably be a slow process. The Leafs will, just like last year, have some company at the bottom but it will take some time before they're clearly better than other teams.

I think we're on the same page.  I do think they will be better than last year and if they are in the bottom 3-5 teams I will be dissapointed but likewise if they challenge for a playoff spot I will be thrilled with their improvement.  I expect they will be somewhere in the 7-10 range from the bottom.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 17, 2016, 10:42:52 AM

Speaking of Dylan Larkin, I wasn't aware just how much his scoring fell off in the second half. Remember all the talk about his all-star nod proving something vis a vis the selection of Nylander? Post All-Star break Larkin had 12 points in 32 games and Nylander had 13 points in 22 games.

I'm sure someone has pointed that out before but it struck me as noteworthy.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 01, 2016, 07:38:18 PM
The forgotten Nikita had himself a good night.

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/10/01/watch-nikita-korostelevs-hat-trick-leads-sarnia-sting-7-4-win-ottawa/
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9prjYTfNNw[/youtube]
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 06, 2016, 09:21:45 AM
Jack Walker got some new hats.

http://vancouversun.com/sports/hockey/walkers-hat-trick-helps-royals-rule-giants-in-3-2-triumph
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQNU3VDOC8o[/youtube]

I wonder if there is any interest in converting him back to playing defense.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 06, 2016, 04:23:15 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/10/06/lou-lamoriello-talking-leafs-prospects-j-d-greenway-travis-dermott-jeremy-bracco/

I imagine this conversation to have taken place during a sleepover, them asking Lou to dish on the latest Leaf gossip, and which player he likes best... possibly playing MASH.

TL:DR; Lou called Dermott fat.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 07, 2016, 12:22:50 PM
A good article about the one pick in 2015 that I had the most questions about:
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects/2016/10/7/13200268/toronto-maple-leafs-prospect-desrocher-in-charge-of-inexperienced-frontenacs-team

Beyond this write up, Desrocher also notes how much the Leafs system changes year over year. Apparently we trend track and adjust as the league shifts.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 08, 2016, 01:06:51 AM
Nikita Korostelev at it again: https://streamable.com/dul7
You may need a moment after this.

http://www.ontariohockeyleague.com/video-channels/highlights/oct-716-sar-6-kit-5-so
He and Bracco both had 3-point nights.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 08, 2016, 09:46:56 AM
That's very much an OHL goal but dang if it isn't a pretty one.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 08, 2016, 10:13:50 AM
I'm not sure that there's been a 7th round pick that made us as excited as Nikita Korostelev did when he was drafted. Unfortunately his D+1 season was a pretty big disappointment. He's a pretty massive long-shot at this point but hopefully he has a big D+2 year.

edit: Hey, apparently Stralman, Gunnarsson, and Johnsson were all 7th round picks.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 08, 2016, 10:35:32 AM
I'm not sure that there's been a 7th round pick that made us as excited as Nikita Korostelev did when he was drafted. Unfortunately his D+1 season was a pretty big disappointment. He's a pretty massive long-shot at this point but hopefully he has a big D+2 year.

edit: Hey, apparently Stralman, Gunnarsson, and Johnsson were all 7th round picks.

Thommie Bergman is magic.

Of the 2015 draft, Lindgren, Desrocher, and Korostelev were the only ones not getting much accolades. Lindgren largely because he's playing on a Jr. SHL team, and Desrocher/Korostelev for not doing much exciting last year.

This year, Korostelev is lighting up the OHL (4GP/6G/3A/9P) so far coming out of Leafs camp. He's skating much better, and his skills are shining through. Desrocher is with the Frontenacs and getting much more involved in putting the Leafs development plan into practice.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: bustaheims on October 08, 2016, 10:51:02 AM
You don't see that kind of backhand shot much anymore. Not with that kind of power or accuracy.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 09, 2016, 07:36:03 PM
Korostelev had another big game last night. 2 slick goals and a shootout goal. 11pts in 5 games (8G).

http://sarniasting.com/video/oct-816-pbo-2-sar-3-so
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on October 10, 2016, 11:36:32 AM
Man we have gone from zero to oozing with talent. This guy wants in.  Get Clooney
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 10, 2016, 06:31:20 PM
Bracco is not content to let Korostelev get all the recent glory. He potted his first hat trick this afternoon in a 5-point effort towards an 8-4 victory.

http://kitchenerrangers.com/video/highlights-storm-vs-rangers-oct-10th-2016

He's 3 games into his season following Leafs Camp. 5 goals, 4 assists. He looks like Marner-lite out there.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 12, 2016, 10:06:24 AM
Quote
Quinn MacKeen ‏@quinnesq
Leaf pick Korshkov is #1 in KHL scoring for those 20 or younger; 2nd overall in scoring on his team & has 9 points in last 8 games. Rolling.

I'm not quite yet ready to admit that a professional scouting staff led by Mark Hunter knew prospects better than ME, a guy who never heard of this player before he was drafted, but it's at least nice to see him producing.

#StillwouldapickedSamuelGirardthough
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 14, 2016, 07:49:02 PM
Korostelev up to 10G/3A in 8GP.
Bracco at 5G/4A in 3GP. 6G/6A in 4GP.
Dzierkals at 4G/5A in 5GP. 4G/6A in 6GP.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 17, 2016, 09:42:53 AM
Update on our CHL prospects currently at 1.0 PPG or more

Bracco: 6G/11A/17pts in 6 GP
Korostelev: 10G/3A/13pts in 8 GP
Dzierkals: 6G/6A/12pts in 7 GP

Brooks: 3G/4A/7pts in 3 GP
Walker: 5G/3A/8pts in 8 GP
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: LuncheonMeat on October 17, 2016, 11:49:43 AM
Update on our CHL prospects currently at 1.0 PPG or more

Bracco: 6G/11A/17pts in 6 GP
Korostelev: 10G/3A/13pts in 8 GP
Dzierkals: 6G/6A/12pts in 7 GP

Brooks: 3G/4A/7pts in 3 GP
Walker: 5G/3A/8pts in 8 GP

Man, Korostelev keeps banging the goals in. Nice start by Bracco as well.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 17, 2016, 12:29:33 PM
Short of having a Standard Player Contract, Bracco is actually eligible for playing on the Marlies this year alongside his draft cohort (Dermott, Timashov, Nielsen) because he was drafted out of the US college program, rather than the CHL.

He is tearing up the OHL at the moment; I think management wants him to build his portfolio (and size) in Juniors rather than potentially getting boxed out in the AHL by the likes of Clune, Greening, Laich. He's only topped out at 49 games in one season (+5 college games) last season, so it would be good to see how sustainable his play is over the course of a full junior season.

Here's to hoping he Marners the CHL this year.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Rick Couchman on October 17, 2016, 02:22:00 PM
Bracco is OHL Player of the Week. Four goals, nine assists for 13 points in 4 games
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 17, 2016, 02:25:56 PM
Bracco is OHL Player of the Week. Four goals, nine assists for 13 points in 4 games

And Kapanen got AHL Player of the Week on top of Matthews' 2nd star
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 17, 2016, 02:54:05 PM

1st star of the week in QMJHL? Xavier Potvin. First I'd heard Felix's kid was playing Major Junior.

Cripes, I'm old.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on October 17, 2016, 05:37:33 PM
Nik, I am turning 60 tomorrow and I am starting to know what it feels to be old.  Nice thing in AZ is the benefits start everywhere at 60 so let the discounts start coming.  :'(
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on October 17, 2016, 09:05:48 PM

1st star of the week in QMJHL? Xavier Potvin. First I'd heard Felix's kid was playing Major Junior.

Cripes, I'm old.

Professor X.  He makes you think the 5 hole is open.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 18, 2016, 03:19:55 AM
Nik, I am turning 60 tomorrow and I am starting to know what it feels to be old.  Nice thing in AZ is the benefits start everywhere at 60 so let the discounts start coming.  :'(


You're not old.  You're only 6!  ;D
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on October 18, 2016, 08:38:28 AM
Ya in pony years….Came down to Picton to celebrate, very nice place and I think the Prince Edward County wines are better than the Niagara wines.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 19, 2016, 09:28:32 AM
In addition to his OHL POTW, Bracco earned the CHL Player of the Week (http://chl.ca/article/rangers-jeremy-bracco-named-chl-player-of-the-week).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Dappleganger on October 19, 2016, 12:19:42 PM

1st star of the week in QMJHL? Xavier Potvin. First I'd heard Felix's kid was playing Major Junior.

Cripes, I'm old.

Professor X.  He makes you think the 5 hole is open.

Nice mask.

(http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/xavier-potvin-of-the-chicoutimi-sagueneens-guards-his-net-against-the-picture-id499447906?k=6&m=499447906&s=594x594&w=0&h=473u1gcnCBTCPq7I1zfvBloy3eWCTQtFq31Np8k4Rs4=)

(http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/xavier-potvin-of-the-chicoutimi-sagueneens-makes-a-glove-save-during-picture-id499464280?k=6&m=499464280&s=594x594&w=0&h=2txbMb7X_A9Nd6yoGGE4dzvQYsNAugSyYvzMYNxaBVM=)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on October 19, 2016, 05:11:21 PM
Prince Edward County wines are better. I know cause I sampled every one in the county in two days :P
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on October 20, 2016, 02:29:38 PM
Carl Grundstrom has a hat-trick for Frolunda today.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 20, 2016, 02:34:16 PM
Carl Grundstrom has a hat-trick for Frolunda today.

Grundstrom > or = Laine?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 20, 2016, 02:44:11 PM
Grundstrom > or = Laine?

Depends, was he playing against HC Mapple Leifen?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on October 20, 2016, 04:58:30 PM
Good laugh there Nik…funny
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 21, 2016, 01:26:29 PM
Korostelev: 9 GP - 11G 5A 16Pts
Bracco: 7 GP - 7 G 11A 18Pts
Dzierkals: 7 GP - 6G 6A 12Pts

Brooks: 4 GP - 3G 5A 8Pts
Walker: 9 GP - 6G 3A 9Pts

Also cute: Middleton and Mattinen have combined for 1 assist in 13 combined games.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Potvin29 on October 21, 2016, 01:32:45 PM

1st star of the week in QMJHL? Xavier Potvin. First I'd heard Felix's kid was playing Major Junior.

Cripes, I'm old.

*faints*
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on October 27, 2016, 10:47:14 AM
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on October 27, 2016, 11:01:49 AM

Lets bring him up quick and send Freddie the Goat 2 to Robidas Island…..Lou get out your brass knuckles
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on November 03, 2016, 11:48:06 AM
Korshkov is torching the KHL.

He's producing at a top 10 all-time pace for 20-year-olds.

Playing only about 13:30 a game too.

They seemed to take a lot of heat for that pick, early signs show that they might have gotten a sleeper.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 03, 2016, 12:13:02 PM
Korshkov is torching the KHL.

He's producing at a top 10 all-time pace for 20-year-olds.

Playing only about 13:30 a game too.

They seemed to take a lot of heat for that pick, early signs show that they might have gotten a sleeper.

Exciting! His pace is only applicable for the past 15 games. He was stalled at 2 pts in 10 with minimal minutes. 12 in the last 15.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on November 03, 2016, 12:53:41 PM
Indeed herman, huge guy too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/5ax5az/monthly_prospect_update_october_edition_with/

This is a really solid post with an update on most/if not all of our prospects.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 03, 2016, 01:02:57 PM
Indeed herman, huge guy too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/5ax5az/monthly_prospect_update_october_edition_with/

This is a really solid post with an update on most/if not all of our prospects.

Watch out once he starts filling out his frame. Think Martin Marincin, but with wheels and hands and meanness. His dad was a defenseman until he was 38, and was 6'5" at nearly 250 lbs (source (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects/2016/6/29/12053486/who-is-toronto-maple-leafs-draft-pick-yegor-korshkov)). Picked by Hunter on the recommendation of Namestnikov (also recommended Soshnikov).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 15, 2016, 09:09:30 AM
Adam Brooks has been named WHL Player of the Week.

Bracco and Korostelev continue to torch their leagues. Piccinich has been named Captain of the London Knights.

PlayerStageGamesGoalsAssistsPointsPoints/Game
J.J Piccinich20 yrs (D+3)16812201.25
Jeremy Bracco19 yrs (D+2)151119302.00
Martins Dzierkals19 yrs (D+2)191214261.37
Nikita Korostelev19 yrs (D+2)181513281.56
Adam Brooks20 yrs (D+1)11718252.27
Jack Walker20 yrs (D+1)191111221.16

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 15, 2016, 09:15:56 AM
Adam Brooks has been named WHL Player of the Week.

PlayerStageGamesGoalsAssistsPointsPoints/Game
Adam Brooks20 yrs (D+1)11718252.27

15 points in his past 5 games. It's a shame they couldn't find room for him on the Marlies. He's likely going to just absolutely torch the dub this season.

Also, saying he's in his D+1 season is technically true but somewhat misleading based on what that means since he was draft eligible in 2014. It's really D+3.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 15, 2016, 09:22:26 AM
Also, saying he's in his D+1 season is technically true but somewhat misleading based on what that means since he was draft eligible in 2014. It's really D+3.

That's why I included the ages (because I knew I would totally muck up the D+ #s if I tried to do date math  ;D). A few of these guys are putting up these numbers by virtue of simply being bigger and stronger than their regular competition.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 18, 2016, 12:25:31 PM
Another day, another Bracco hat trick.
http://theleafsnation.com/2016/11/18/jeremy-bracco-extends-point-streak-to-17-with-hat-trick

He could be up with the Marlies this year due to being drafted out of the US program, but the Marlies have too many players already.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on November 18, 2016, 07:15:33 PM
Horrible question to have. What are we going to do with this plethora of highly talented scoring forwards?  Where are they all going to fit it?  How many are we going to have to trade or send to some parallel hockey universe?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 18, 2016, 08:47:00 PM
Horrible question to have. What are we going to do with this plethora of highly talented scoring forwards?  Where are they all going to fit it?  How many are we going to have to trade or send to some parallel hockey universe?

I think it's a valid question.

a) Fact of the game: not all of them will be good enough to make it
b) Some will be spent on upgrading areas of weakness (goal, defense)
c) My hope is that we move to a 4-line team of balanced skill and speed so there is more room for players like Lindberg, Bracco, Timashov, Korshkov, and no cap space given to single function punchers/slowpokes/hitters

E.g. Slightly optimistic but very doable within 2 years
Kapanen - Matthews - Marner
Leipsic - Nylander - Johnsson
Lindberg - Kadri - Brown
Soshnikov - Gauthier - Hyman
Rychel, Holland

Then we still have in the wings: Bracco, Timashov, Dzierkals, Korostelev, Grundstrom, Korshkov, Brooks, Walker

Edit: I totally forgot about Rychel. It would also be nice to have two Centery types per line for strong side draws if possible.

More edits: Leipsic is ahead of a few names I put there initially.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Tigger on November 18, 2016, 09:22:53 PM
That's more optimistic than I am.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 18, 2016, 09:41:27 PM
That's more optimistic than I am.

Yes.

Not even accounting for transactions that might bring in or reduce other options
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on November 18, 2016, 10:08:17 PM
Butch to Sundance:   "Who are those guys"? 
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: McGarnagle on November 19, 2016, 09:22:04 AM
a) Fact of the game: not all of them will be good enough to make it

Taking it a step further, overwhelmingly most of them won't be good enough to make it.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on November 19, 2016, 06:54:41 PM
Yeh but if you get even 3 with the guys we already have…?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Tigger on November 19, 2016, 07:00:29 PM
Yeh but if you get even 3 with the guys we already have…?

Honestly I'd be happy if one of the next round of prospects turns out to be a good nhl player, over the moon if they found two.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on November 19, 2016, 07:07:44 PM
Yeh but if you get even 3 with the guys we already have…?

Honestly I'd be happy if one of the next round of prospects turns out to be a good nhl player, over the moon if they found two.

You're going to be very happy.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Tigger on November 19, 2016, 07:09:10 PM
Yeh but if you get even 3 with the guys we already have…?

Honestly I'd be happy if one of the next round of prospects turns out to be a good nhl player, over the moon if they found two.

You're going to be very happy.

I'll be happy to be happy?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on November 19, 2016, 07:18:02 PM
Yeh but if you get even 3 with the guys we already have…?

Honestly I'd be happy if one of the next round of prospects turns out to be a good nhl player, over the moon if they found two.

You're going to be very happy.

I am already very happy but I may find Nirvana
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 21, 2016, 02:51:59 PM
Bracco has been named OHL player of the week. (Again)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bender on November 21, 2016, 05:35:48 PM
So what's your thoughts on De Brincat Herman?

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 21, 2016, 08:53:17 PM
So what's your thoughts on De Brincat Herman?

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

I haven't seen him personally, beyond the highlights and the scouting reports online.

I was thinking we would take a flier on him with one of our second rounders (if he dropped) prior to the Andersen trade (assuming the 30th would've been used on Girard or Dineen). He looked like a textbook Hunter 2015 type pick.

I think some teams were turned off by his size, and attributing his sky high point totals to playing with OHL-elite linemates.

From what I can see, which is to say nothing about his defense, in the offensive zone he looks like a smaller Laine with a preference for closer range damage. He can deal it with just about any shot: deke, wrister, slapper, slot snap, transition redirect. He has a nose for the net and if he was 6' he'd be in the top 5. His skating is slightly above average so that might hold him back against NHL opponents.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 25, 2016, 09:37:00 AM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/11/24/jeremy-bracco-is-starting-to-take-over-the-ontario-hockey-league/

Bracco has 43 pts in 20 games now.
This is an interview with his Kitchener Rangers coach, Jay McKee. They go into good depth about his skating (which is effectively weird), his confidence, leadership role, playmaking ability, and succeeding in the NHL 'undersized'.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 25, 2016, 10:01:16 AM
http://stats.swehockey.se/Players/Statistics/GoalScoringLeaders/7132
via: https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/5ese5k/carl_grundstrom_scored_two_goals_earlier_is_now/

As of today, Carl Grundstrom is tied with two other players for most goals in the SHL with 10. However, he only has 1 assist in the 22 games he's played.

He plays a power-forward style game and still has size to fill out.

As one of the commenters on reddit noted, all of his 11 pts have come in the last 13 games as his minutes have climbed.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 25, 2016, 10:04:06 AM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/11/24/jeremy-bracco-is-starting-to-take-over-the-ontario-hockey-league/

Bracco has 43 pts in 20 games now.
This is an interview with his Kitchener Rangers coach, Jay McKee. They go into good depth about his skating (which is effectively weird), his confidence, leadership role, playmaking ability, and succeeding in the NHL 'undersized'.

Interesting points there about how he's about to eclipse his goal totals from last season and how his shots per game is way up too. Averaging 4 shots per game this season vs. just 2.4 last season.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 25, 2016, 10:15:20 AM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/11/24/jeremy-bracco-is-starting-to-take-over-the-ontario-hockey-league/

Bracco has 43 pts in 20 games now.
This is an interview with his Kitchener Rangers coach, Jay McKee. They go into good depth about his skating (which is effectively weird), his confidence, leadership role, playmaking ability, and succeeding in the NHL 'undersized'.

Interesting points there about how he's about to eclipse his goal totals from last season and how his shots per game is way up too. Averaging 4 shots per game this season vs. just 2.4 last season.

Early in the season he was on a stacked line with Adam Mascherin (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=171423), 2016-2nd Rder for the Panthers (who has 41 pts in 22 games), 4th behind Bracco in overall league scoring. They've since been split up to balance the lines and they're both still piling on points.

Bracco and Adam Brooks are going to hit the AHL together next year, probably with Timashov, Dzierkals, and Korostelev. Other than being thin at centre (FROESE!), that's going to be pretty sweet for the Marlies.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bender on November 25, 2016, 05:16:08 PM
Should we really be excited about Bracco though? He's doing well but he's a year older than Marner. Some really good players hovering near him in OHL scoring are also a year younger than him

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Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on November 25, 2016, 05:24:24 PM
Should we really be excited about Bracco though? He's doing well but he's a year older than Marner. Some really good players hovering near him in OHL scoring are also a year younger than him

He's two months older than Marner.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on November 25, 2016, 05:42:37 PM
Should we really be excited about Bracco though? He's doing well but he's a year older than Marner. Some really good players hovering near him in OHL scoring are also a year younger than him

He's two months older than Marner.
Maybe he meant in dog-years.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 25, 2016, 05:53:56 PM
Should we really be excited about Bracco though? He's doing well but he's a year older than Marner. Some really good players hovering near him in OHL scoring are also a year younger than him

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk



Adam Brooks is a year older than Marner/Bracco and he is tearing up the WHL (33 pts in 15).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bender on November 25, 2016, 05:54:58 PM
Should we really be excited about Bracco though? He's doing well but he's a year older than Marner. Some really good players hovering near him in OHL scoring are also a year younger than him

He's two months older than Marner.
Sorry long day at work. Yes, two mo the but Marner is in the NHL while Bracco is in the OHL an extra year is what I meant.

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Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on November 25, 2016, 06:00:21 PM
Now that his age is straightened out, I don't think we should be "excited" about Bracco the way we might have been about Marner but we should recognize that not everyone in their draft +2 year tears it up to this extent.

It's not a guarantee but if you're going to have a guy in their draft+2 year in the CHL it's probably better they score a bunch than not scoring a bunch. Guys like Tyler Toffoli and Cody Eakin, just to look at two picks in the 45-65 zone who became good players, had two post draft CHL seasons and neither scored at this clip.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on November 25, 2016, 06:02:22 PM
Bracco's defensive game is a handful of tiers below Marner's. Pretty sure he will be getting the long look through the AHL, vs Marner coming nearly straight from junior. Due to Marner's age and CHL rules, I'm thinking the Leafs would've preferred to try him out on the Marlies first.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on December 02, 2016, 01:45:14 PM
Preliminary World Junior Rosters with Leaf prospects:

Russia: Korostelev
Sweden: Grundstrom (unconfirmed)
USA: Bracco (very likely unless they're stupid), Woll (maybe)

Bracco has been the bellweather for the US roster for the past two years, each year getting snubbed for far less skilled big guys. Like when Kessel was left off the World Cup roster because they already had Kane.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Zee on December 02, 2016, 02:45:57 PM
Preliminary World Junior Rosters with Leaf prospects:

Russia: Korostelev
Sweden: Grundstrom (unconfirmed)
USA: Bracco (very likely unless they're stupid), Woll (maybe)

Bracco has been the bellweather for the US roster for the past two years, each year getting snubbed for far less skilled big guys. Like when Kessel was left off the World Cup roster because they already had Kane.

With a last name like Bracco, he has to be a wop, so I'm a huge supporter.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on December 02, 2016, 02:56:01 PM
Yegor Korshkov broke his leg in the KHL today, such a shame given the year he is having.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on December 02, 2016, 02:59:17 PM
Yegor Korshkov broke his leg in the KHL today, such a shame given the year he is having.

via reddit, He had like 5 shifts in the first and scored too.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 02, 2016, 03:38:59 PM

I hope it's not the same leg he broke when Bobby Clarke slashed him in the Summit Series.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on December 02, 2016, 04:44:05 PM

Such an SHL goal.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: L K on December 02, 2016, 04:49:56 PM
To be fair on Korshkov's season.  He's trailing Brandon Kozun, Petri Kontiola and Maxime Talbot in scoring.  So while he's having a great year for a 20 year old, it certainly isn't as if scoring in the KHL is something to only comes to players who are destined to actually be good in the NHL.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on December 02, 2016, 05:09:04 PM

I hope it's not the same leg he broke when Bobby Clarke slashed him in the Summit Series.

Thats funny Nik, good laugh ;D
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on December 02, 2016, 05:10:45 PM
To be fair on Korshkov's season.  He's trailing Brandon Kozun, Petri Kontiola and Maxime Talbot in scoring.  So while he's having a great year for a 20 year old, it certainly isn't as if scoring in the KHL is something to only comes to players who are destined to actually be good in the NHL.
Ya still a bummer, depending on how bad a break, he will be out at least 2 months of prime development time.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on December 02, 2016, 05:57:40 PM
To be fair on Korshkov's season.  He's trailing Brandon Kozun, Petri Kontiola and Maxime Talbot in scoring.  So while he's having a great year for a 20 year old, it certainly isn't as if scoring in the KHL is something to only comes to players who are destined to actually be good in the NHL.

He's also playing a lesser role than all the players you mentioned due to his age.

As I'm sure you know, young guys can have a hard time getting ice time in the KHL.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on December 08, 2016, 09:26:47 AM
Bracco has hit 25 games on his point-streak, which is every game he has played. He has 50 points (16 Marner Goals, 34 Matthews Assists) in that span and has been named to the preliminary WJHC roster for the US.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on December 10, 2016, 06:18:18 AM
https://streamable.com/att6

Bracco pots the OT winner for points in 26 games straight.
It's a very OHL goal, but still shows the type of mustard his wrist shot is sporting.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on December 12, 2016, 12:58:06 PM
Bracco's point streak has been stopped at 26 games.
Brooks also lost his streak at 22 games.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on December 28, 2016, 08:34:31 AM
Adam Brooks is up to 58 pts in 26 games (20/38), thanks to two straight games of 3G/2A. Trails Sam Steel (ANA, 2016-1st Rd) by one though, who was cut from Canada's WJHC roster.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Captain Canuck on January 01, 2017, 10:48:48 AM
Nikita Korostelev was traded to Peterborough yesterday.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on January 04, 2017, 10:38:18 AM
www.twitter.com/CHLHockey/status/816409719011164161
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on January 04, 2017, 05:46:33 PM
http://ontariohockeyleague.com/article/ohl-top-performers-for-december-2

Stephen Desrocher named OHL Defenseman of the Month!
15 pts in December (2/13).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on January 04, 2017, 06:07:59 PM
Man I didnt realize that Desrocher is 6'4" and is over 200lb.  And he will fill out some.  Great news
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on January 09, 2017, 04:31:04 PM
www.twitter.com/JeffMarek/status/818569059444858880

It was rumoured during the WJHC that Bracco would be headed to the Knights, but it looks like the Memorial Cup hosts got to him first.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: bustaheims on January 09, 2017, 04:32:51 PM
www.twitter.com/JeffMarek/status/818569059444858880

It was rumoured during the WJHC that Bracco would be headed to the Knights, but it looks like the Memorial Cup hosts got to him first.

Now, the Leafs just need to get him signed.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on January 09, 2017, 04:38:19 PM
Now, the Leafs just need to get him signed.

As he was drafted out of the college system, we have until June 2019 to sign Bracco.

I can see them giving him a Marlies ATO towards the end of the season if the Marlies are still in it and then signing him to his ELC in the offseason slated for the 2017-18 Marlies. Keeps the contract slots open for maneuvers to maybe rake in some picks.

Edit: I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm looking at the CBA (http://cdn.agilitycms.com/nhlpacom/PDF/NHL_NHLPA_2013_CBA.pdf) 8.6 c ii
Quote
If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19 is a bona fide college student at the time
of his selection in the Entry Draft, or becomes a bona fide college student
prior to the first June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft, and does
not remain a bona fide college student through the graduation of his
college class, his drafting Club shall retain exclusive rights for the
negotiation of his services until the later of: (a) the fourth June 1 following
his selection in the Entry Draft, or (b) thirty (30) days after NHL Central
Registry receives notice that the Player is no longer a bona fide college
student; provided that if the Player ceases to be a bona fide college student
on or after January 1 of an academic year and the Player: (1) is in his
fourth year of college and has commenced his fourth year of NCAA
eligibility, or (2) is in his fourth year of college and is scheduled to
graduate from college at the end of his fourth year, then in the
circumstances described in (1) or (2), the Club shall retain the exclusive
right of negotiation for such Player's services through and including the
August 15 following the date on which he ceases to be a bona fide college
student. The Club need not make a Bona Fide Offer to such Player to
retain such rights.

Bracco began his Draft + 1 season with Boston College Eagles (NCAA) and then changed his mind and signed with Kitchener on Oct 28, 2015.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 09, 2017, 06:37:23 PM
Not Leafs related, but this is a summary of what the Knights did today (via @charliejclarke):

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1w7SuiWgAAJXlG.jpg)

They're trading picks from 2024!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on January 09, 2017, 09:29:37 PM
They're trading picks from 2024!

If that conditional pick from 2024 comes to fruition, a boy who is 7 or 8 years old right now had the future right to draft him traded today.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Bender on January 09, 2017, 09:40:49 PM
Is one guy really worth 7 picks?

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: bustaheims on January 09, 2017, 10:43:51 PM
Is one guy really worth 7 picks?

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

In the junior leagues? They definitely can be.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 11, 2017, 01:38:39 PM
Kasperi Kapanen "The one left waiting."

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/kasperi-kapanen-cant-watch-maple-leafs-eagerly-awaits-nhl-chance/

Quote
The 20-year-old was part of the exciting wave of Leafs callups made after last season’s trade deadline and believes deep down that he should still be a member of the team today.

Scouts who have watched him this year tend to agree with that point of view. There’s even a strong sentiment within the Leafs organization that he’s prepared to make the jump.

“I’m a believer,” said one person on the inside.

Added a scout from another team: “I can’t find a flaw (that will keep him out of the NHL).”
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 11, 2017, 02:16:04 PM

Folding Kapanen and Leipsic(and Nielsen) into this group is going to be fun.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 11, 2017, 02:24:20 PM

Folding Kapanen and Leipsic(and Nielsen) into this group is going to be fun.

I've spent the last 5 minutes typing up potential top-9 line combinations with those two involved. I can confirm that it will be fun.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Coco-puffs on January 11, 2017, 02:26:05 PM

Folding Kapanen and Leipsic(and Nielsen) into this group is going to be fun.

I think Nielsen is much farther from the NHL than many think.  He might be putting up great offensive numbers (mostly on the PP), but most reports of him include a "lost in the defensive zone" statement.  We will probably see Dermott or Valiev before Nielsen.  Mirtle even calls Dermott our top defense prospect:


Direct link to article:
https://theathletic.com/33245/2017/01/11/marlies-defenceman-travis-dermott-on-path-to-becoming-part-of-leafs-future/
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Kaberle15 on January 11, 2017, 02:27:36 PM

Folding Kapanen and Leipsic(and Nielsen) into this group is going to be fun.

If JvR is moved, one of Kapanen/Leipsic is up...

But yeah, youth movement should still be fun, we may have no Marners, Matthews or Nylanders in the system, but they are also good prospect, and outside the AHL, Leafs Draftees are winning players of the month, week. It's really nice to see it.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 11, 2017, 02:52:16 PM
I think Nielsen is much farther from the NHL than many think.  He might be putting up great offensive numbers (mostly on the PP), but most reports of him include a "lost in the defensive zone" statement.  We will probably see Dermott or Valiev before Nielsen.  Mirtle even calls Dermott our top defense prospect:

We might see some guys get call ups before him as safe fill-ins but producing at that level, at his age, is something that can't be ignored regardless of how he looks in the defensive zone.

I think we see him sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on January 11, 2017, 02:57:57 PM
Scott Wheeler, from PPP, pointed out over the off season that Kapanen is a bit underrated by most because his box stats generally don't look that compelling. They're suppressed a bit because he was often shuttled off to the next league up before he had time to dominate.

Letting him marinate this year with the Marlies is a good move. He's hungry to play up, and now has a better rounded game to prepare for the NHL. This year, he is up to over 1.0 PPG from last year's 0.56. That's a very healthy jump, especially considering how much less firepower is on the roster this season.

Compared to the 20 year old seasons of other high-end Marlies:
Connor Brown: 0.80
Brendan Leipsic: 0.73 (combined Marlies and Admirals)
Kerby Rychel: 0.65
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on January 11, 2017, 08:47:34 PM
Ya Kappi is an exciting prospect for sure.  Dermott will hopefully see some games as well as Valiev.  Hopefully the Marlies will give Neilson time to develop and who seems to have the size and offense to be a #3-4 down the road.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 12, 2017, 05:23:53 AM
Nielsen and Dermott directly responsible for a goal each in a 2-1 loss last night.

Dermott with a suicide from his knees into the open slot and Nielsen tried an open ice hip check that caused a 3-0 the other way for the GWG.

Rough night.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Zee on January 12, 2017, 08:45:22 AM
Leafs have all these exciting forward prospects that look like they can be legitimate stars in the league, would be nice if at least one of the defensive prospects can do the same.  They really need an injection on the blueline.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on January 30, 2017, 09:48:16 AM
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects/2017/1/29/14421338/adam-brooks-the-leafs-junior-hockey-superstar

This handsome creature (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=160169) is currently tuning up the WHL at >2 ppg. He is on his final year of eligibility in the CHL, so it's not unusual for overagers to exhibit some dominance.

Brooks is still exciting for Leafs fans, nonetheless, as he is a shifty, cerebral, and skilled center that would have been on the Marlies this season if not for the glut of contract cast offs from the Leafs. We saved a contract slot by letting him stay down and captain the Regina Pats (who are wrecking their division and conference and league).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 10, 2017, 08:49:57 AM
Jeremy Bracco's hit a bit of a wall since being traded to Windsor. He had 51 points in 27 games with Kitchener before the trade, but just 13 points in 14 game after it. Similar thing happened to Timashov last year when he was traded in the Q.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on February 10, 2017, 09:27:47 AM
You know who hasn't hit a wall though?
Nicolas Mattinen: http://streamable.com/l8qrt
First goal of a season is his impression of a Giant Jeremy Bracco.

Such a weird release, totally fooled the goalie.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on February 10, 2017, 03:39:11 PM
This guy actually picked up the pace after getting traded.
www.twitter.com/scottcwheeler/status/830107034058096640

I also long for the day we have an entire line and pairing of Nikitas on the ice at the same time.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on February 11, 2017, 05:13:52 PM
The dueling Nikita's ;D.

its actually scary the amount of talent in this organization, we have some guys in the pipeline who definitely will challenge in two to four years time.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Zee on February 16, 2017, 09:10:59 AM
Any updates on Kapanen?  Haven't heard much since his leg injury in January?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2017, 09:29:40 AM
Any updates on Kapanen?  Haven't heard much since his leg injury in January?

Don't often get updates on injured players from the AHL unfortunately. Someone reported it was suspected he'd be out 8 weeks originally. That would put a return date at about the middle of March.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Zee on February 16, 2017, 09:46:57 AM
Any updates on Kapanen?  Haven't heard much since his leg injury in January?

Don't often get updates on injured players from the AHL unfortunately. Someone reported it was suspected he'd be out 8 weeks originally. That would put a return date at about the middle of March.

Tough break, was hoping to see him up after the deadline.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Britishbulldog on February 16, 2017, 12:32:09 PM
Any updates on Kapanen?  Haven't heard much since his leg injury in January?

Don't often get updates on injured players from the AHL unfortunately. Someone reported it was suspected he'd be out 8 weeks originally. That would put a return date at about the middle of March.

Tough break, was hoping to see him up after the deadline.

Yeah, me too.  I am wondering if Griffith (16 games) or Froese (12 games) will get a chance to play on the big club.  Froese has been playing quite well.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on February 18, 2017, 11:52:42 AM
www.twitter.com/FutureOfThe6/status/832956235943116800
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on February 18, 2017, 09:22:53 PM
Chriky, we need this dude on our squad just for shootouts. LOL
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Coco-puffs on February 21, 2017, 02:35:15 PM
LOL Craig Button.

Top 5 Leafs Prospects not in the NHL according to Button (in order):

Nielsen
Kapanen
Brooks
Grundstrom
Bracco

Link:  http://www.tsn.ca/who-are-the-best-players-not-skating-in-the-nhl-1.677389
It should be noted that Button tends to ignore most guys over 21, leaving the likes of Liepsic and Rychel out.

My take:  I don't see how anyone could put Nielsen ahead of Kapanen.  And, while its my own opinion, I'd have Dermott ahead of Nielsen too.   
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Zee on February 21, 2017, 02:37:32 PM
LOL Craig Button.

Top 5 Leafs Prospects not in the NHL according to Button (in order):

Nielsen
Kapanen
Brooks
Grundstrom
Bracco

Link:  http://www.tsn.ca/who-are-the-best-players-not-skating-in-the-nhl-1.677389
It should be noted that Button tends to ignore most guys over 21, leaving the likes of Liepsic and Rychel out.

My take:  I don't see how anyone could put Nielsen ahead of Kapanen.  And, while its my own opinion, I'd have Dermott ahead of Nielsen too.   

For what's it worth, Bob McKenzie said Nielson is an intriguing prospect who might have a future as an offensive d-man, but it's his play without the puck that's concerning.  He also mentioned that Dermott might be the better of the two as a prospect though.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 21, 2017, 02:58:53 PM
It should be noted that Button tends to ignore most guys over 21, leaving the likes of Liepsic and Rychel out.

At first I thought that this meant he had an age-cutoff in his criteria. But I noticed a couple of 22-23 year old guys on those lists. So not including Brendan Leipsic in the Leafs top-5 is pretty inexcusable.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Coco-puffs on February 21, 2017, 03:10:45 PM
LOL Craig Button.

Top 5 Leafs Prospects not in the NHL according to Button (in order):

Nielsen
Kapanen
Brooks
Grundstrom
Bracco

Link:  http://www.tsn.ca/who-are-the-best-players-not-skating-in-the-nhl-1.677389
It should be noted that Button tends to ignore most guys over 21, leaving the likes of Liepsic and Rychel out.

My take:  I don't see how anyone could put Nielsen ahead of Kapanen.  And, while its my own opinion, I'd have Dermott ahead of Nielsen too.   

For what's it worth, Bob McKenzie said Nielson is an intriguing prospect who might have a future as an offensive d-man, but it's his play without the puck that's concerning.  He also mentioned that Dermott might be the better of the two as a prospect though.

Nielsen certainly developed much more of an offensive game than expected since the day he was drafted- specifically on the PP where he has 19 of his 30 points this year.  Dermott's play without the puck is much further ahead too, and his offense is still good for a 20 yr old rookie AHL d-man- he has 10 pts 5-on-5 while Nielsen has 11 (in 13 more games).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on February 21, 2017, 03:58:37 PM
Korshkov is back from his broken leg, in time for the KHL playoffs.
https://streamable.com/hccxh #96 with the drag and tuck.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Coco-puffs on February 22, 2017, 09:33:50 AM
It should be noted that Button tends to ignore most guys over 21, leaving the likes of Liepsic and Rychel out.

At first I thought that this meant he had an age-cutoff in his criteria. But I noticed a couple of 22-23 year old guys on those lists. So not including Brendan Leipsic in the Leafs top-5 is pretty inexcusable.

Most of those 22/23 year olds are goalies and defensemen, which take longer to develop.  There are two forwards of that age on that list, and both of them only started their pro careers this year (after going the NCAA route).

I'm not sure about Leipsic.  He reminds me a bit of this guy (ie, a tweener):

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects/2017/2/21/14663294/why-isnt-seth-griffith-in-the-nhl-toronto-marlies-toronto-maple-leafs

Then again, the Leafs prospect depth is no longer stellar with the graduates this year so maybe tweeners should be on that list.  Only Kapanen is to me, better than a 75% bet to be an NHLer.  Dermott I'd put around 50% (my money is on him being our 3rd pair LD in two years, but not a sure thing).  Everyone else, below the 50% mark. 

Guys like Korshkov, Brooks, and Bracco could be middle-six players- Grundstrom, Dzerikals, bottom six/energy but they are all still long shots.  Nielsen reminds me of Cody Franson- but he has a long way to go in the defensive end to just be barely adequate like Cody was.

Of the Marlies, Rychel, Johnsson, and Timashov had pretty poor starts to their Marlies careers, and other than Timashov, they are already at an age where they should be dominating the AHL if they expect to be NHLers- although it being Johnsson's first year here I won't make that judgement entirely just yet.  Its good to see all three of them coming on now though.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on February 22, 2017, 10:25:37 AM
Re: Rychel, Johnsson, and Timashov
They weren't really getting the minutes that befit their skill sets (or the centres), as Kapanen and Leipsic were on a tear. Their numbers being boosted coincides with the latter two's injuries and their new deployment.

On the Leafs' eventual 4-line team of skilled puck holders and movers, this is a good thing.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on March 08, 2017, 09:44:36 PM
www.twitter.com/JSportsnet/status/839630061116526593
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on March 27, 2017, 02:01:25 PM
Monday Maple Leafs prospect report: Nicolas Mattinen
https://theathletic.com/46922/2017/03/27/monday-maple-leafs-prospect-report-nicolas-mattinen/

A really good look at one of the head scratcher pucks from the most recent draft. Mattinen has some really good tools to work with (skating, size, shot), so it'll be interesting to watch him develop.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on April 12, 2017, 10:45:31 AM
RHD Jesper Lindgren (2015 4th rd) has been signed to a Marlies ATO for their home stretch.

Who?
Here's a bit of context about the player (https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/64shep/marlies_sign_draft_pick_jesper_lindgren_to_an_ato/dg4ys6b/)

Quote
Quote
pre-draft scout reports:
a smooth skating offensive minded blueliner…more agile and fluid than a speedster…has impressive hockey sense and vision…makes some incredible high-end passes…not only hitting targets through skates and sticks but also finding open spots to head the puck…has a good hard shot that is has good placement…good defensively as well…while not a bruiser by any stretch physical play is solid, he never shies away from fighting along the boards…likes to use his body to separate the puck from the opponents in one on one situations…reads passes well and can step up to intercept before quickly transitioning the play…offensive puck moving is where he stands out most. [future considerations, december 2014]

possible first round sleeper who has come out of nowhere with eye-popping skating, skills and swashbuckling offensive skills. an aggressive offensive player you will jump up in pinches and fake defenders to him and place the puck to an opponent or simply freeze the defender and blow on by. incredibly cool and confident, with legs and moves that sometimes don’t work, but cause defenders to think about what they might encounter on the next touch. he has elusive puck control that isn’t going to ever stay back if he has an inkling he can make a play. his feet let him get back when the puck is turned over in transition. a bold gunslinger who needs to get stronger, bigger and continue to progress. displays karlsson-like attributes and seems on a quick developmental track to the first round if there is a team looking willing to take the chance to watch him progress. [bill placzek, draftsite.com]

jesper lindgren had a great year despite his terrible team, putting up 24 points [3g + 21a] in 50 gp as a 19 year old rd. that's good enough to be...
1st in u20 defensemen scoring
4th in u20 scoring
7th in defensemen scoring
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Coco-puffs on April 12, 2017, 11:19:55 AM
Pierre Engvall was also added to the Marlies on a ATO:

https://theleafsnation.com/2017/04/12/toronto-marlies-sign-pierre-engvall-to-ato/

He's a winger, so I'm not sure if he'll see much ice-time considering the number of wingers on the Marlies roster.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 12, 2017, 11:48:31 AM
I kind of forgot about Lindgren. His stats seem promising, although they're in the secondary league in Sweden (so weird that Modo got relegated) so it's tough to compare them to past players.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on April 12, 2017, 12:16:56 PM
I wouldn't mind them taking extra time with Engvall and Lindgren because I think they'll be useful depth at minimum.

Lindgren looks more promising of the two due to position and bearing all the skill markers that I'm looking for in defensemen. He narrowly missed out on making the WJC team of stacked defenders.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on April 12, 2017, 12:55:13 PM
I wouldn't mind them taking extra time with Engvall and Lindgren because I think they'll be useful depth at minimum.

Lindgren looks more promising of the two due to position and bearing all the skill markers that I'm looking for in defensemen. He narrowly missed out on making the WJC team of stacked defenders.
I know highlight reels make anyone look great, but Engvall is #3 in U21 scoring and is 6'4".  Looks like he has the scoring touch and skates straight up ice fast. He is certainly going to fill out to at least 220-230 and why not leave him in Sweden for another year and then a year or two with the Marlies.
Lindgren sounds like a bit of a Stralman clone, which works well in the Clone Wars.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on May 03, 2017, 04:37:53 PM
A passing remark by Lou has set the hype train going...
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2017/05/03/travis-dermott-next-in-line-on-the-maple-leafs-blue-line/

Quote
Quote
Dermott progressed in an almost trial by fire, learning to adjust to the AHL pace and increased physicality of the AHL. His strength is a dynamic skating ability combined with heads up playmaking skill, and he exhibited those with timely, simple outlets and complicated stretch passes. Skating skills should allow for more rushing and puckhandling, however, he seemed to conform more to a team concept of moving the puck up ice, and supporting the rush when he could. Struggled initially with some of the AHL physicality at times, but learned to use escape maneuvers (good edges, timely passes and clear avoidance) and teammates as options to move the play along instead of absorbing physical play. Showcased his skillset enough to warrant a potential graduation to the Leafs in 2017-18. Player to watch.
– Scouting report by Gus Katsaros (@KatsHockey)

In the above scouting report submitted to MLHS, Gus Katsaros mentioned Dermott’s ability to adjust to the physical rigors of the AHL. Not the tallest defenceman, Dermott is sturdy (5’11, 215 pounds) and has surprised many opponents with his strength at a tender age, whether that’s winning battles along the boards, laying hits on bigger forwards, or dropping the gloves on two occasions. The physical maturity is there.

Dermott is a tank. A smart, maneuverable, patient tank.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 28, 2017, 09:26:29 PM

Bracco just had a gorgeous assist to put Windsor up late.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: L K on May 28, 2017, 09:35:57 PM

Bracco just had a gorgeous assist to put Windsor up late.

Somewhat of a disappointing OHL season from him but he has been great for Windsor in the Memorial Cup.

3G 5A P in 4 games
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on May 28, 2017, 10:23:29 PM
Bracco finished the game with 1G 2A.

www.twitter.com/TLNdc/status/869012239688269825

www.twitter.com/coreypronman/status/869010875730071555
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on May 29, 2017, 04:45:58 PM
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2017/5/28/15707860/leafs-prospect-jeremy-bracco-caps-off-perfect-season-with-memorial-cup

Quote
On the ice, Bracco was magic.

“He's just one of the best players I've played with,” said Mikhail Sergachev, Windsor's top defencemen, of his teammate.

[...]

It wasn't always easy though. Bracco cooled off after his trade from the Kitchener Rangers to the Spitfires at the OHL's deadline.

“When we first acquired him, he was two points a game,” said Spitfires general manager Warren Rychel, who became Bracco's billet father in Windsor. “We had to adjust him and he was cheating a bit. And Bracco was great on the boards tonight. Bracco has been great.”

“Warren took me into his home with his family and I’m grateful for that,” Bracco noted.

The players struggled to adjust to Bracco's style too.

“To be honest with you, at first we couldn't do anything,” Sergachev said. “We couldn't connect with him on the ice because he was just so much different. He’s another level of player. And now he played his best and our team played its best.”

That being said, I would trade Bracco for Sergachev in a heartbeat.
Cool that he lived with Kerby's family though.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on May 29, 2017, 05:10:20 PM
More Bracco:

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2017/05/29/leafs-links-barnaby-marek-gush-over-jeremy-bracco-after-first-star-performance-in-memorial-cup-win-offseason-gameplan/

Kitchener Rangers assistant coach Matthew Barnaby:

Quote
We had to make that decision to trade Jeremy and give him that opportunity to help a team win. There were a lot of teams that were looking for his services, trust me. He’s the best passer in the CHL in junior hockey, bar none, and no one is even close. When he opens up into his 10-2, his skill level is off the charts.

www.twitter.com/Sportsnet/status/869002089375989760

At the beginning of the clip on this Memorial Cup winning goal, you can see Bracco freezing the defender with his 10-2 skating (also called heel-to-heel, Mohawk, or spread eagle turning | video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wamg41bxi0M)).

Jeff Marek explains:
Quote
Such a highly-skilled player. You look at that goal that ended up being the game winner. He starts off that mohawk style skating around the blue line, and no one does it better in the CHL than Jeremy Bracco. He may be the most creatively gifted playmaker in the entire CHL, with all due respect to Mathew Barzal. When you look at that 10-2 skating style — the Jeff Skinner, Ulf Dahlen style of skating — there is no one better than Jeremy Bracco right now. It confuses the defencemen because you don’t know which way he’s going to go. You don’t know what he’s going to do; you don’t know if he’s going to accelerate or decelerate, or if he’s going to shoot or pass.


Crosby also likes to use this when swinging back up to the slot from down low as it keeps his body as a shooting and passing threat for the entire trip (video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BwK2ECscX4)). Jeff Skinner uses it for shortening turn times (wraparounds) from his figure skating training (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuzfW9E2VZ0). I don't know many others that actually do it for neutral zone transition down the ice though; Bracco uses it for picking up speed the way others are taught to do linear crossovers.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on May 30, 2017, 03:04:01 PM
www.twitter.com/JeffVeillette/status/869612796534824961

Lindberg was underwhelming this year, mostly due to being hampered by injuries. Defensively responsible lefthand shot that can play both wings... should get a shot winning a spot on the big club in a couple of years when we part ways with JvR, Komarov, (and Martin, pls), and shift Hyman to RW. He's just behind the Rychel/Leipsic/Aaltonen tier of older LW, with the more promising Johnsson/Timashov/Grundstrom/Dzierkals group.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 02, 2017, 08:57:43 AM
www.twitter.com/kristen_shilton/status/870617531693895680

The Leafs had until yesterday to sign this trio before they lost their rights. No real losses there. Desrocher and Korostelev were the Leafs last 2 picks in the 2015 draft. Korostelev was viewed as a potential steal in the 7th round at the time, but his D+1 year was pretty disappointing as he fell below the PPG mark. He got back over it in his D+2 but that obviously wasn't enough. Herzog was all the way back in the 2013 draft and has been playing in Europe the past 3 seasons after going to the Q for his D+1 year.

Not signing Desrocher is maybe a little bit surprising, but the Marlies are looking to have quite the LOGJAM of lefties on their blueline next season, so he'd be pretty far down the depth chart there. I wouldn't be completely surprised to see him ink an AHL deal though and start in the ECHL.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: bustaheims on June 02, 2017, 11:34:04 AM
Not signing Desrocher is maybe a little bit surprising, but the Marlies are looking to have quite the LOGJAM of lefties on their blueline next season, so he'd be pretty far down the depth chart there. I wouldn't be completely surprised to see him ink an AHL deal though and start in the ECHL.

Losing Desrocher completely would be disappointing. He's definitely a longer-term project type prospect, but there's definitely something intriguing about a guy his size who has puck skills and good instincts. There's potentially concerns with his mobility at the NHL level, but, I'd still like to see the team give him some time in the system to see how much of an impact that might actually have.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 26, 2017, 01:17:23 PM
Stephen Desrocher is going to Columbus' prospect and development camp this summer as a free agent invite. Probably hoping to score a NHL deal. Maybe he'll consider a AHL-only deal here if that doesn't work out.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on June 26, 2017, 02:09:26 PM
Stephen Desrocher is going to Columbus' prospect and development camp this summer as a free agent invite. Probably hoping to score a NHL deal. Maybe he'll consider a AHL-only deal here if that doesn't work out.

I'm still surprised he didn't get a closer look, hopefully an AHL deal transpires. 
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 26, 2017, 02:13:50 PM
Stephen Desrocher is going to Columbus' prospect and development camp this summer as a free agent invite. Probably hoping to score a NHL deal. Maybe he'll consider a AHL-only deal here if that doesn't work out.

I'm still surprised he didn't get a closer look, hopefully an AHL deal transpires. 

Admittedly I don't really think we're missing out on anything, but it's a little odd because I'm not sure what else he needed to do to earn a contract. His most recent season probably went about as well as anybody could have expected. And he was of course a long-term project pick to begin with.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on June 26, 2017, 09:13:45 PM
How is he going to fit in with all our Swedes, God I wish we could clone Salming. 
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: L K on June 27, 2017, 06:16:22 AM
Stephen Desrocher is going to Columbus' prospect and development camp this summer as a free agent invite. Probably hoping to score a NHL deal. Maybe he'll consider a AHL-only deal here if that doesn't work out.

I'm still surprised he didn't get a closer look, hopefully an AHL deal transpires. 

Admittedly I don't really think we're missing out on anything, but it's a little odd because I'm not sure what else he needed to do to earn a contract. His most recent season probably went about as well as anybody could have expected. And he was of course a long-term project pick to begin with.

It's especially odd to me given that The Leafs started employing the "draft oversteer who aren't great because they have untapped potential" model.  I know not every draft pick gets signed or even has any organizational success but super drafter Mark Hunter already has two non-signed draft picks.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on June 27, 2017, 09:13:49 AM
www.twitter.com/dcmahiban/status/879668126174117888

Out but not really... Korostelev could still eventually work his way into the 50-man roster through the ECHL/AHL. Depending on how Desrocher's camp goes with CBJ, I think we'll see him in our fold if no one else gives him a shake.

Vegas invited frequent Leaf dev camp invitee Tyler Wong to their camp, as he had been playing with their temporary farm system (Chicago). I've been hoping the Marlies could pick him up on an AHL deal, but I think he's angling for an ELC with a team that isn't overloaded already with smaller wingers. Vegas also invited Nikolas Brouillard (the Solar Bears' version of TJ Brennan that saw very brief Marlies action).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on June 27, 2017, 09:23:17 AM
Leafs camp will feature the following invitees:
www.twitter.com/LWOSCushman/status/879426765202100224

via PPP (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects/2017/6/27/15879104/toronto-maple-leafs-are-having-a-development-camp-and-theyve-invited-a-guy-we-all-know)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: herman on June 29, 2017, 03:41:16 PM
Adam Brooks (2016 4th rounder 92 overall in his D+2 year) has been signed to an ELC. Due to his current age, his contract will not be eligible to slide, but he will be waiver-exempt for 3 seasons or 80 games, whichever comes first.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects Post-Matthews
Post by: Highlander on June 30, 2017, 02:41:05 PM
I like Brooks, Lou speaks of him as a very very good addition, perhaps our new 4th line Centre (in a year or two)?