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Just for Fun => Ok Blue Jays Talk => Topic started by: Deebo on May 25, 2016, 02:07:14 PM

Title: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on May 25, 2016, 02:07:14 PM
Travis to be called up today:


DL stint for Tulo? Goins to Buffalo?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on May 25, 2016, 02:19:39 PM
Looks like its Venditte optioned.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on May 25, 2016, 02:25:49 PM
Have to keep the almighty .150 batting average on the roster.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on May 25, 2016, 02:29:48 PM
Have to keep the almighty .150 batting average on the roster.

Quality defender on the bench in case Tulo isn't 100%?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on May 25, 2016, 02:35:00 PM
Have to keep the almighty .150 batting average on the roster.

Quality defender on the bench in case Tulo isn't 100%?

I'm no fan of Venditte but if Tulo goes on the DL you can bring him back up.  His value as a defensive player is negligible when he is hitting this bad (and it isn't the first season in his career he has done this).
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on May 25, 2016, 02:39:39 PM
Have to keep the almighty .150 batting average on the roster.

Quality defender on the bench in case Tulo isn't 100%?

I'm no fan of Venditte but if Tulo goes on the DL you can bring him back up.  His value as a defensive player is negligible when he is hitting this bad (and it isn't the first season in his career he has done this).

I mean in the case where Tulo's injury isn't serious enough to warrant a DL stint but they want to rest him for a couple days. Otherwise, I agree with you.

We'll see when the line-up comes out today.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on May 25, 2016, 02:48:09 PM
I mean in the case where Tulo's injury isn't serious enough to warrant a DL stint but they want to rest him for a couple days. Otherwise, I agree with you.

We'll see when the line-up comes out today.

Even though he hasn't played at SS much in his career, for a couple games here and there, you could probably put Barney there and come out okay, or even shift Travis over and have Barney play 2B. It's not ideal, but it's an option, and it makes more sense than wasting a roster spot on Goins. And, I mean, if they really wanted to, they could easily send Venditte down when they wanted to rest Tulo instead of making that move now, and have a little more depth in the pen, as questionable as that depth may be.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on May 25, 2016, 02:59:09 PM
I mean in the case where Tulo's injury isn't serious enough to warrant a DL stint but they want to rest him for a couple days. Otherwise, I agree with you.

We'll see when the line-up comes out today.

Even though he hasn't played at SS much in his career, for a couple games here and there, you could probably put Barney there and come out okay, or even shift Travis over and have Barney play 2B. It's not ideal, but it's an option, and it makes more sense than wasting a roster spot on Goins. And, I mean, if they really wanted to, they could easily send Venditte down when they wanted to rest Tulo instead of making that move now, and have a little more depth in the pen, as questionable as that depth may be.

I'm saying maybe they want to keep Tulo out of the line up for the next few days because he left the game last night with a hamstring problem. If he is out today with that injury (but not serious enough for a 15 day DL stint) and they play Barney and Travis in the middle infield and Barney or Travis gets hurt, then what?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on May 25, 2016, 03:07:13 PM
I mean in the case where Tulo's injury isn't serious enough to warrant a DL stint but they want to rest him for a couple days. Otherwise, I agree with you.

We'll see when the line-up comes out today.

Even though he hasn't played at SS much in his career, for a couple games here and there, you could probably put Barney there and come out okay, or even shift Travis over and have Barney play 2B. It's not ideal, but it's an option, and it makes more sense than wasting a roster spot on Goins. And, I mean, if they really wanted to, they could easily send Venditte down when they wanted to rest Tulo instead of making that move now, and have a little more depth in the pen, as questionable as that depth may be.

I'm saying maybe they want to keep Tulo out of the line up for the next few days because he left the game last night with a hamstring problem. If he is out today with that injury (but not serious enough for a 15 day DL stint) and they play Barney and Travis in the middle infield and Barney or Travis gets hurt, then what?

You move Martin to 2B and Barney/Travis to SS and make do for the single game that you deal with the situation.  Or you put Paredes at 2B and move Barney/Travis to SS. Again, for that single game that you have to worry about it.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on May 25, 2016, 03:29:44 PM
You move Martin to 2B and Barney/Travis to SS and make do for the single game that you deal with the situation.  Or you put Paredes at 2B and move Barney/Travis to SS. Again, for that single game that you have to worry about it.

Exactly. There are options on the roster that minimize Goins' value right now. With the offence and bullpen struggling the way they are, there's no reason to keep a defensive specialist who's not producing at the plate on the roster. The team can manage for a couple games with a defensive downgrade. Right now, they can't manage with another hole in the batting order.

And, as for Venditte, he could have been sent down to make room for someone else in the pen - like maybe Browning - who's been excellent in his minor league career so far - or Stilson, or some of the other minor league vets they have down there that could potentially make for a reasonable relief arm.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on May 25, 2016, 05:05:19 PM
Tulo is out tonight and might be out for a few days. I wouldn't want to go multiple games without one player with significant time at SS available, which would be the case if Goins was sent down.

They also might want to ease Travis back in so I can see how having another IF option on the bench at the expense of a BP arm would make sense.

I doubt this is a long term arrangement, but for now I can see why they would do it.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on May 25, 2016, 08:35:00 PM
Not really the same topic but I don't get why they don't give Hutchinson a chance at the 7th or 8th inning... It would be better than the dumpster fire that is storen.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on May 28, 2016, 11:46:50 AM
15 day DL for Tulo and Loup activated.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on May 29, 2016, 03:14:21 PM
Turnaround?  About time for the Jays...

 http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-offence-resembles-2015-form-walk-off-victory/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on May 31, 2016, 07:15:35 PM
Jays acquire 39 year old RH reliever Jason Grilli and cash considerations from Atlanta for pitching prospect Sean Ratcliffe.

I'm not sure how much Grilli has left in the tank, but there is no doubt the Jays pen needed a bit of a shakeup. Minor move, but at least it's a start! Hard to deal this early in the year, only get the teams way out of the race like the Braves wanting to trade now.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on May 31, 2016, 10:15:50 PM
Is it in Russell Martin's contract that he can't ever smile?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on June 01, 2016, 08:24:59 AM
Is it Russell Martin's contract that he can't ever smile?

He's allowed to grimace if he gets hit by a pitch. 

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on June 10, 2016, 01:14:54 AM
The Jays are  5.5 GBL Baltimore in the American League East. Toronto is also just 2.5 games from first (Boston) in the AL wildcard race.


The Blue Jays currently rank 17th in MLB with 255 runs scored and are on pace to finish with 677. Through 61 games last season, the Blue Jays had scored 325 runs en route to finishing with an MLB-best 891 -- 127 more than the next best team. Toronto also ranks 26th in team average (.234) in 2016 after finishing second in baseball at .269 in 2015.

Jays President  Mark Shapiro apparently unhappy about it.


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/shapiro-expects-blue-jays-struggling-offence/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on June 13, 2016, 10:28:51 PM
Not the best Jays debut, but still pretty cool to see Guelph's Scott Diamond in a Jays uniform! Been able to follow him around a little bit over the years...few IBL games with the Royals, then saw him beat the Jays in Minnesota a few years back (7 shutout innings) and went to a
game in Rochester when he was with the Red Wings.
With the Jays desperate for a reliable lefty arm out of the pen, hopefully Scott can make the most of his opportunity.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Al14 on June 15, 2016, 03:22:58 PM
The Jays are  5.5 GBL Baltimore in the American League East. Toronto is also just 2.5 games from first (Boston) in the AL wildcard race.


The Blue Jays currently rank 17th in MLB with 255 runs scored and are on pace to finish with 677. Through 61 games last season, the Blue Jays had scored 325 runs en route to finishing with an MLB-best 891 -- 127 more than the next best team. Toronto also ranks 26th in team average (.234) in 2016 after finishing second in baseball at .269 in 2015.

Jays President  Mark Shapiro apparently unhappy about it.


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/shapiro-expects-blue-jays-struggling-offence/

So he should be!  Jays are just an average baseball team this season.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on June 15, 2016, 03:33:19 PM
The Jays are  5.5 GBL Baltimore in the American League East. Toronto is also just 2.5 games from first (Boston) in the AL wildcard race.


The Blue Jays currently rank 17th in MLB with 255 runs scored and are on pace to finish with 677. Through 61 games last season, the Blue Jays had scored 325 runs en route to finishing with an MLB-best 891 -- 127 more than the next best team. Toronto also ranks 26th in team average (.234) in 2016 after finishing second in baseball at .269 in 2015.

Jays President  Mark Shapiro apparently unhappy about it.


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/shapiro-expects-blue-jays-struggling-offence/

So he should be!  Jays are just an average baseball team this season.


Wonder what his original expectations were for this team?  Did anyone really think the Jays were/are going to repeat the histrionics of the past season?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on June 15, 2016, 03:49:12 PM
They've been playing close to .600 ball since May 1
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on June 15, 2016, 07:24:43 PM
The Jays are  5.5 GBL Baltimore in the American League East. Toronto is also just 2.5 games from first (Boston) in the AL wildcard race.


The Blue Jays currently rank 17th in MLB with 255 runs scored and are on pace to finish with 677. Through 61 games last season, the Blue Jays had scored 325 runs en route to finishing with an MLB-best 891 -- 127 more than the next best team. Toronto also ranks 26th in team average (.234) in 2016 after finishing second in baseball at .269 in 2015.

Jays President  Mark Shapiro apparently unhappy about it.


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/shapiro-expects-blue-jays-struggling-offence/

So he should be!  Jays are just an average baseball team this season.


Wonder what his original expectations were for this team?  Did anyone really think the Jays were/are going to repeat the histrionics of the past season?

Histrionics?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 15, 2016, 07:36:30 PM
The Jays are  5.5 GBL Baltimore in the American League East. Toronto is also just 2.5 games from first (Boston) in the AL wildcard race.


The Blue Jays currently rank 17th in MLB with 255 runs scored and are on pace to finish with 677. Through 61 games last season, the Blue Jays had scored 325 runs en route to finishing with an MLB-best 891 -- 127 more than the next best team. Toronto also ranks 26th in team average (.234) in 2016 after finishing second in baseball at .269 in 2015.

Jays President  Mark Shapiro apparently unhappy about it.


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/shapiro-expects-blue-jays-struggling-offence/

So he should be!  Jays are just an average baseball team this season.


Wonder what his original expectations were for this team?  Did anyone really think the Jays were/are going to repeat the histrionics of the past season?

Histrionics?

You know, the way they so theatrically craved attention.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on June 16, 2016, 08:09:03 PM
MLB slide rule: Start the slide before the bag.  Slide in the line of the bag.  Don't slide past the bag.

Pillar managed to get called out on replay for this rule while doing those three things.  Baseball is absolutely broken.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Gerald The Duck on June 16, 2016, 08:13:45 PM
MLB slide rule: Start the slide before the bag.  Slide in the line of the bag.  Don't slide past the bag.

Pillar managed to get called out on replay for this rule while doing those three things.  Baseball is absolutely broken.

Yup stupidest rule I've ever seen. What else could Pillar have done there? The only reason Pillar made any contact with the second baseman is because he stuck his leg directly in Pillar's path. Just beyond comprehension.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on June 16, 2016, 09:13:58 PM
Not that I like it, but after the 4 slide rules, hit the dirt first, don't slide over the bag, etc... there is a no roll block rule, which is apparantly what they thought he did. So that at least comforts me in the sense that they're applying the rules correctly, the rules still stink though.

Then I was thinking. Don't slide. Just run up to the bag. The infielder throwing to second will have to throw around you. Can't call an illegal slide for that.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on June 16, 2016, 10:02:36 PM
Then I was thinking. Don't slide. Just run up to the bag. The infielder throwing to second will have to throw around you. Can't call an illegal slide for that.

I'm not 100% sure, but, I think that, as part of these new rules, players have to slide if it's going to be a close enough play.

I understand the spirit of the rule and I'm all for protecting players from concussions, but, clearly, there's still a ways to go for them to find the right balance here. The takeout slide is part of the game. You can setup the rules to allow it and protect the fielder at the same time.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on June 17, 2016, 08:38:26 PM
Jays pounded O's Mike Wright into submission tonight, that's what he gets for lipping off!  8)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on June 17, 2016, 08:41:15 PM
Jays pounded O's Mike Wright into submission tonight, that's what he gets for lipping off!  8)

Lipping off is a stretch, but I did enjoy the peppering.

Can we say the Jays offense is back yet?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 17, 2016, 09:18:31 PM
Jays pounded O's Mike Wright into submission tonight, that's what he gets for lipping off!  8)

Lipping off is a stretch, but I did enjoy the peppering.

Can we say the Jays offense is back yet?

Saunders 3 home runs and 8 RBI so far tonight...
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on June 17, 2016, 10:53:51 PM
Saunders 3 home runs and 8 RBI so far tonight...

He's having himself a season.

Also, looks like the Jays are now holding one of the wildcard spots. Been on a nice run since April ended.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on June 18, 2016, 05:04:50 PM
Blue Jays downgrade themselves by activating Tulo and sticking him back at 6th in the order.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: applecheeks on June 18, 2016, 06:55:10 PM
I personally havn't seen the "wow" in Tulo. Sure hope he finds his game in the up coming week. Time for another win streak.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TML fan on June 19, 2016, 02:04:04 PM
Then I was thinking. Don't slide. Just run up to the bag. The infielder throwing to second will have to throw around you. Can't call an illegal slide for that.

I'm not 100% sure, but, I think that, as part of these new rules, players have to slide if it's going to be a close enough play.

I understand the spirit of the rule and I'm all for protecting players from concussions, but, clearly, there's still a ways to go for them to find the right balance here. The takeout slide is part of the game. You can setup the rules to allow it and protect the fielder at the same time.

The rule is fine but they aren't applying it with any common sense. The "absolutely no contact with the fielder" part is what needs to change. They need to allow some contact otherwise fielders will exploit the rule like what happened with Pillar.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on June 25, 2016, 03:42:42 PM
Mets sign Reyes to a minor league contract. Rockies on the hook for 40mil, Castro seems to be getting lit up.

Say what you want about tulowitzki,  the Jays seem to be ahead on this one.  Still time for Castro I suppose.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on June 25, 2016, 04:14:40 PM
Mets sign Reyes to a minor league contract. Rockies on the hook for 40mil, Castro seems to be getting lit up.

Say what you want about tulowitzki,  the Jays seem to be ahead on this one.  Still time for Castro I suppose.

I still think the team is going to regret moving Hoffman.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on June 25, 2016, 04:16:47 PM
Was he part of that trade too?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on June 25, 2016, 04:22:04 PM
Was he part of that trade too?

Yup.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on June 26, 2016, 07:59:19 PM
Was he part of that trade too?

Hoffman and Castro. It wasn't a Reyes for Tulo straight up deal.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 26, 2016, 08:21:16 PM
Was he part of that trade too?

Hoffman and Castro. It wasn't a Reyes for Tulo straight up deal.

I think Hoffman was the most important Jays component for the Rockies to make the deal.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on June 26, 2016, 08:26:18 PM
Was he part of that trade too?

Hoffman and Castro. It wasn't a Reyes for Tulo straight up deal.

I think Hoffman was the most important Jays component for the Rockies to make the deal.

Yea, I think so too. But Castro is still a pretty nice arm. He's still only 21 and can throw 100mph.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on June 30, 2016, 09:43:48 PM
17 strikeouts... Good lord
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on July 01, 2016, 01:44:56 PM
Umpires need to go.......
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on July 01, 2016, 01:52:05 PM
There's a wacky ass strike zone going on right now.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on July 01, 2016, 02:25:21 PM
The Jays and Indians are getting two different strikezones.  Tabler's solution "expand the zone".  Which one, Tomlin is getting the high fastball, the low fastball and the pitch 6 inches off the plate outside.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on July 01, 2016, 02:26:33 PM
The Jays and Indians are getting two different strikezones.  Tabler's solution "expand the zone".  Which one, Tomlin is getting the high fastball, the low fastball and the pitch 6 inches off the plate outside.

Did something happen with Edwin? I saw something on twitter but it got lost in the FA stuff.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on July 01, 2016, 02:29:49 PM
The Jays and Indians are getting two different strikezones.  Tabler's solution "expand the zone".  Which one, Tomlin is getting the high fastball, the low fastball and the pitch 6 inches off the plate outside.

Did something happen with Edwin? I saw something on twitter but it got lost in the FA stuff.

Donaldson got wrung up on a strike three off the plate and went to take the walk on it so Carpazzio got his chest out.  He called Edwin out on an even worse strike 3 call.  Edwin turned in on him and yelled.  Carpazzio tossed him and then Edwin very slightly nudged the ump so that's probably going to give him an extra game suspension.  Gibbons came out and Carpazzio threw him out too although Gibbons did very little.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on July 01, 2016, 02:32:17 PM
The Jays and Indians are getting two different strikezones.  Tabler's solution "expand the zone".  Which one, Tomlin is getting the high fastball, the low fastball and the pitch 6 inches off the plate outside.

Did something happen with Edwin? I saw something on twitter but it got lost in the FA stuff.

Donaldson got wrung up on a strike three off the plate and went to take the walk on it so Carpazzio got his chest out.  He called Edwin out on an even worse strike 3 call.  Edwin turned in on him and yelled.  Carpazzio tossed him and then Edwin very slightly nudged the ump so that's probably going to give him an extra game suspension.  Gibbons came out and Carpazzio threw him out too although Gibbons did very little.

Thanks for the update.  :)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on July 01, 2016, 07:12:26 PM
Um guys, Goins just pitched out of a bases loaded 17th.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on July 01, 2016, 07:36:24 PM
And Barney loses the game :( but got a sweet K.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 02, 2016, 12:17:25 AM
I was at the game and it was LONG (believe 2nd longest in team history)!

Carapazza was an absolute joke out there today, didn't have a clue about balls and strikes, while having a very quick temper.

The crowd went absolutely crazy for Goins and he did a heck of a job! Barney may have given up the winning run, but he did an awesome job as well. It can't be easy taking the mound as a position player with the game on the line like that.
The Indians should have been doing likewise, but decided to throw Bauer out there instead, so the small consolation prize is that their rotation is a bit messed up now and they will most likely have to call up someone to spot start.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 02, 2016, 11:26:58 AM
Goins is now on the 15 day disabled list because of pitching yesterday.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on July 02, 2016, 12:06:37 PM
Goins is now on the 15 day disabled list because of pitching yesterday.

Fist pumping that double play too hard?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on July 03, 2016, 01:32:38 PM
Unsurprisingly Edwin has been suspended a game for brushing the umpire. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 03, 2016, 05:06:12 PM
Jays blast Indians 17-1 with Martin, Tulo each getting three run homers and Smoak adding a two-run shot.  Great sunny day for the Jays.


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/beatdown-indians-comes-perfect-time-blue-jays/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/beatdown-indians-comes-perfect-time-blue-jays/)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on July 03, 2016, 06:24:15 PM
Tulo has been great since returning.

He was doing pretty well the 3 weeks or so before the injury too, hopefully the slump is over.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on July 05, 2016, 02:48:30 PM
The Jays have the highest average attendance in the AL.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 05, 2016, 09:00:12 PM
I see that KC's pitching line so far tonight is Young Wang Pounders...  *snicker*
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 05, 2016, 10:02:58 PM
Encarnacion, Donaldson, and Estrada named to All Star team. Saunders included in the vote off for the final spot.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 06, 2016, 04:29:47 PM
Encarnacion, Donaldson, and Estrada named to All Star team. Saunders included in the vote off for the final spot.

Surprised Sanchez isn't in there.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 06, 2016, 04:37:01 PM
Surprised Sanchez isn't in there.

My guess is, if there wasn't the requirement for every team to be represented, he would be.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TimKerr on July 06, 2016, 05:31:42 PM
Estrada just got placed in the 15 day DL. Does he still get to go and get introduced but not actually play?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on July 06, 2016, 06:45:17 PM
If he chooses then yes he can.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on July 08, 2016, 07:09:53 PM
Saunders is going to the All-Star game.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Darryl on July 09, 2016, 11:45:38 AM
Saunders is going to the All-Star game.
Jays fans showing up to win the final vote again.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 09, 2016, 04:15:27 PM
Aaron Sanchez has been added to the all-star game roster to replace injured Craig Kimbrel.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 09, 2016, 04:26:33 PM
Aaron Sanchez has been added to the all-star game roster to replace injured Craig Kimbrel.

I'm really glad to hear that.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 11, 2016, 12:36:47 PM
So what do people think the Jays are going to do here?

If Estrada can't get healthy (which isn't looking good at this point), and Sanchez probably moving to bullpen, they're obviously going to need some pieces there.

Assuming the expiring contract guys don't net starting pitchers, which guys are valuable trade chips?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 12, 2016, 10:57:55 AM
The Blue Jays' Josh Donaldson made A.L. history in Sunday's win against  the Detroit Tigers, in becoming the  sixth player to have scored 80 runs & 20 home runs before the All-Star break.


Source:  Sportsnet
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TimKerr on July 12, 2016, 11:02:53 AM
So what do people think the Jays are going to do here?

If Estrada can't get healthy (which isn't looking good at this point), and Sanchez probably moving to bullpen, they're obviously going to need some pieces there.

Assuming the expiring contract guys don't net starting pitchers, which guys are valuable trade chips?

If Estrada doesn;t come back for a while, I don't see how they can move Sanchez to the bullpen. I mean he is an All-Star in his first year as a starter. That decision would be puzzling.

As for trade chips, I don't know their prospect pool well enough, however, I still think they might trade one of Bautista/Encarnacion. If they know they can't sign both of them next year, they can be tempted to move one of them at the deadline for some pitching.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on July 12, 2016, 11:04:18 AM
So what do people think the Jays are going to do here?

If Estrada can't get healthy (which isn't looking good at this point), and Sanchez probably moving to bullpen, they're obviously going to need some pieces there.

Assuming the expiring contract guys don't net starting pitchers, which guys are valuable trade chips?

If Estrada doesn;t come back for a while, I don't see how they can move Sanchez to the bullpen. I mean he is an All-Star in his first year as a starter. That decision would be puzzling.

As for trade chips, I don't know their prospect pool well enough, however, I still think they might trade one of Bautista/Encarnacion. If they know they can't sign both of them next year, they can be tempted to move one of them at the deadline for some pitching.

Both have the option to block trades.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TimKerr on July 12, 2016, 11:15:50 AM
So what do people think the Jays are going to do here?

If Estrada can't get healthy (which isn't looking good at this point), and Sanchez probably moving to bullpen, they're obviously going to need some pieces there.

Assuming the expiring contract guys don't net starting pitchers, which guys are valuable trade chips?

If Estrada doesn;t come back for a while, I don't see how they can move Sanchez to the bullpen. I mean he is an All-Star in his first year as a starter. That decision would be puzzling.

As for trade chips, I don't know their prospect pool well enough, however, I still think they might trade one of Bautista/Encarnacion. If they know they can't sign both of them next year, they can be tempted to move one of them at the deadline for some pitching.

Both have the option to block trades.

In that case, I don't see it happening.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 12, 2016, 12:03:34 PM
None of the rental options I've heard bandied about are super appealing - at least, not at the cost of any of the team's better prospects.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 12, 2016, 07:25:51 PM
So what do people think the Jays are going to do here?

If Estrada can't get healthy (which isn't looking good at this point), and Sanchez probably moving to bullpen, they're obviously going to need some pieces there.

Assuming the expiring contract guys don't net starting pitchers, which guys are valuable trade chips?

Hopefully Sanchez stays in the rotation and then plug Hutchison into Estrada's spot if he is still hurting.

Not really a whole lot to give up on the roster. I don't want to give up Goins even though he is now a bench piece, suppose one of Smoak or Colabello could go?, and open to trading Bautista but he would never waive his no-trade clause to do so.
Down on the farm there isn't a whole lot of trade chips after blowing through them last year.

I feel the Jays will just be doing some minor tinkering this trade deadline, but will be pleasantly surprised if they add a piece that could put them over the top. I would prefer pitching help, but those Jay Bruce rumours just don't want to go away.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Crake on July 12, 2016, 07:57:21 PM
I'm not as up on the Jays prospects as some, but it seems to me the best and most likely thing to happen is a couple smaller deals to bolster the bull pen. That's probably where they'll find the best improvement for the smallest investment.

They're likely running with the starters they have unless they can luck into a #5 guy cheaply.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 12, 2016, 08:45:04 PM

So, uh, did anyone catch what happened with the Anthem?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 12, 2016, 08:49:27 PM

So, uh, did anyone catch what happened with the Anthem?

For those who didnt:

http://deadspin.com/o-canada-rendition-features-modified-racist-lyrics-1783557022

I'm genuinely having a difficult time expressing an opinion on this without using words that would need to be censored out. What a bunch of complete idiots.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 12, 2016, 08:54:12 PM
For those who didnt:

http://deadspin.com/o-canada-rendition-features-modified-racist-lyrics-1783557022

I'm genuinely having a difficult time expressing an opinion on this without using words that would need to be censored out. What a bunch of complete idiots.

I mean, yeah, but it was like...why? What? Who?

That's just...no.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 12, 2016, 09:24:08 PM
Just all sorts of dumb. I'm sure they didn't mean it in a demeaning to the BLM cause kind of way, but, still . . . just so much no. Not the right message. Not the right way to express the message. Just straight up not right.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 12, 2016, 10:15:12 PM
They're certainly not doing very well on Twitter right now. They might not be let back into the country.

Edit: The band released a statement, blaming it all on the one guy

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 12, 2016, 10:38:37 PM
While it's certainly possible he was acting on his own, the other guys didn't seem to even flinch when he decided to ad lib.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 12, 2016, 11:45:52 PM
People have been going through the guys past social media posts and turns out he's unsurprisingly a lunatic. Among other things, he believes that the world is flat and we're all being tricked by NASA or something.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 12, 2016, 11:49:11 PM
While it's certainly possible he was acting on his own, the other guys didn't seem to even flinch when he decided to ad lib.

I didn't think so either at first, but a more close-up shot does seem to show a noticeable amount of surprise from the other 3 guys: twitter.com/AndyCole84/status/753061945910005760
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 13, 2016, 12:02:28 AM
Wrong place, wrong time for this "message", reminds me of the Toronto Pride Parade debacle....hopefully not a new trend within society.

Remigio Pereira just continues my distain for the Portuguese this week!  ;)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 13, 2016, 04:15:22 AM
Incredible that this even happened.  Shameful that it did.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on July 15, 2016, 02:59:45 PM
Uh speaking of Canada, I guess:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/j-happ-qa-talking-fastballs-basketball-blue-jays-milk/

HAPP!
Quote
Kristina Rutherford: You must be more familiar with Toronto now, having lived here before.

Happ: Yeah, I feel a lot more comfortable in the city this time around. Iím liking it more and more. Iím happy to be back.

Is there anything youíre still not used to in Canada?

I think Iíve gotten used to most of the stuff. Grocery shopping is a little different. I still donít understand the bagged milk situation here.

What?

You guys sell milk in bags and I donít really get why, or what you do then with the bags. Other than that it seems like Canadaís doing a pretty good job. [Laughs.] But I donít get the milk. Put it in a gallon jug so you donít have the sloppy, messy bag.

You know you put the bag in a milk jug, right?

Whereís the jug? Do you have to buy the jug separately? Why are they not in the jug already?

Oh my gosh. You have to ask someone at the grocery store for help.

Why do I have to ask? I should just grab it from the counter and it should be ready for me to drink.

Thereís an assumption that you know to put the bag in a milk jug and cut it open.

[Laughs]. They canít assume that. Iíve never bought it because I see this bag of milk and Iím like I donít get what I can do with this thing.

J.A., I canít believe this.

[Laughs.] We need a memo sent out to all American players on how Canada dispenses its milk. Would you prefer to have a gallon of milk or a bag or milk? You can pick up a gallon and walk out of the store. Or you can try to figure out how to drink your bagged milk.

I think I have to bring you a milk jug.

That would be great.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 15, 2016, 03:02:40 PM

To his credit, I'm with him on the milk. Live outside of the country for a while and it really does strike you as weird when you return.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on July 15, 2016, 03:56:15 PM
I agree. Bags are a hassle to store, albeit not as clunky as a gallon jug.
I'm just laughing because he's in his fourth year here and has somehow been able to forgo a milk jug (probably emptying it into a pitcher -- haha).
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 15, 2016, 03:57:51 PM
I agree. Bags are a hassle to store, albeit not as clunky as a gallon jug.
I'm just laughing because he's in his fourth year here and has somehow been able to forgo a milk jug (probably emptying it into a pitcher -- haha).

I bet he's just buying Cartons. The coward's way out.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on July 15, 2016, 04:17:52 PM
I agree. Bags are a hassle to store, albeit not as clunky as a gallon jug.
I'm just laughing because he's in his fourth year here and has somehow been able to forgo a milk jug (probably emptying it into a pitcher -- haha).

I bet he's just buying Cartons. The coward's way out.

Is there no decency left in this world?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on July 15, 2016, 05:37:38 PM
When I lived there in my twenties the bag thing threw me at first too.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on July 15, 2016, 07:00:02 PM
I agree. Bags are a hassle to store, albeit not as clunky as a gallon jug.
I'm just laughing because he's in his fourth year here and has somehow been able to forgo a milk jug (probably emptying it into a pitcher -- haha).

I bet he's just buying Cartons. The coward's way out.

Hey, I buy milk in the carton because 4L is too much milk for me to guarantee that I get through it before it goes bad given that every few days I pull 36-40 hour shifts so I'm not home to drink it.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 15, 2016, 07:02:42 PM
Hey, I buy milk in the carton because 4L is too much milk for me to guarantee that I get through it before it goes bad given that every few days I pull 36-40 hour shifts so I'm not home to drink it.

My fridge has mustard, beer and a box of bandaids in it. I'm really not one to talk.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on July 15, 2016, 07:06:06 PM
Hey, I buy milk in the carton because 4L is too much milk for me to guarantee that I get through it before it goes bad given that every few days I pull 36-40 hour shifts so I'm not home to drink it.

My fridge has mustard, beer and a box of bandaids in it. I'm really not one to talk.

Don't underestimate the fridge bandage.  If you cut your hand trying to open your beer, you have something to protect your hand if you accidentally touch the mustard.  That stuff stings in an open cut.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 15, 2016, 07:09:18 PM
Don't underestimate the fridge bandage.  If you cut your hand trying to open your beer, you have something to protect your hand if you accidentally touch the mustard.  That stuff stings in an open cut.

Not to worry, I've got a full bar if I need an antiseptic.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on July 15, 2016, 07:31:01 PM
Pro for Bags: Bags of milk can be frozen if you know you can't finish the whole thing.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on July 15, 2016, 07:39:12 PM
Pro for Bags: Bags of milk can be frozen if you know you can't finish the whole thing.

Nope.  I can taste the difference when you thaw it out and personally it's not good.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on July 15, 2016, 08:18:02 PM
Pro for Bags: Bags of milk can be frozen if you know you can't finish the whole thing.

Nope.  I can taste the difference when you thaw it out and personally it's not good.

Super taster?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Crake on July 15, 2016, 08:23:05 PM
Pro for Bags: Bags of milk can be frozen if you know you can't finish the whole thing.

Nope.  I can taste the difference when you thaw it out and personally it's not good.

Super taster?
There's definitely a difference. I remember as a kid I could always tell when my parents left a bag on the top shelf of the old fridge too long, even if they thawed it before I saw it.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TML fan on July 16, 2016, 12:55:14 AM
Well, I thought he was safe but I didn't see an angle that definitively showed his foot on the plate before the tag.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 16, 2016, 10:40:46 AM
Stroman got trounced again. This is getting a little scary. With Estrada's wonky back and the prospect of Sanchez potentially moving back to the pen, this 2nd half is going to be interesting.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 16, 2016, 12:46:18 PM
Smoak gets a 2 year extension.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 17, 2016, 11:51:15 AM
The Blue Jays sported their best w/l record (51-40) at the All-Star break this year, not seen since the 1992 season, the year in which they won their first of two World Series titles.  A potent of great things to come?

Source:   CBC Sports
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 17, 2016, 12:08:02 PM
Rumours, rumours rumours.....the MLB trade deadline is fast approaching and the question is,  what will the Blue Jays do, if anything?

"Big Papi" David Ortiz, of the Boston Red Sox, has let it be known that the Jays Edwin Encarnacion would be welcome in Boston.
Encarnacion, who remains unsigned, and he let it be known (through his agent during this year's spring training), that he preferred signing a new contract at season's end.  With the way Encarnacion is playing, he'll be up for a big payday (unless Jays management has other plans).

What of the 35 year old Bautista who's having among his worst starts to his season, injuries and all? 


Story:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/mlb-rumours-roundup-latest-bautista-encarnacion-blue-jays/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/mlb-rumours-roundup-latest-bautista-encarnacion-blue-jays/)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on July 20, 2016, 06:31:55 PM
What's up with Cecil?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on July 20, 2016, 07:16:44 PM
What's up with Cecil?

This sounds like the title of a racially insensitive 90's sitcom.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on July 20, 2016, 08:58:45 PM
What's up with Cecil?

This sounds like the title of a racially insensitive 90's sitcom.

(https://i.imgur.com/wieTGX6.png)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 24, 2016, 11:54:52 AM

Storen DFA'd
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 24, 2016, 04:18:36 PM
Storen DFA'd

What a failure that deal was for both teams.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 24, 2016, 04:58:43 PM
What a failure that deal was for both teams.

Yeah. Obviously the year Saunders is having made it a smart move to sell high on Revere but Storen...well, we all saw it.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 24, 2016, 06:50:26 PM

Hey, so, remember when signing Happ and not Price was a sure sign that the cheapskate Blue Jays didn't want to win? Fun times.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Gerald The Duck on July 30, 2016, 03:09:44 PM

Hey, so, remember when signing Happ and not Price was a sure sign that the cheapskate Blue Jays didn't want to win? Fun times.

Just thought that this deserved a bump, that is all.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 31, 2016, 06:48:45 AM
Blue Jays in first place in the A.L. East Division after a 9-1 drubbing of the Baltimore Orioles at the Rogers Centre yesterday afternoon.

The Jays scored seven runs in the fifth inning, while J.A. Happ, Jays' starting pitcher,  got the win.  Happ is now 14-3 on the year, which leaves him tied with four others in the league, leading In the win column.

More:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-use-7-run-fifth-beat-orioles-jump-first-al-east/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 31, 2016, 10:29:44 PM
Barry Davis is reporting that Franklin Morales will not be with the Jays in Houston and that he has been DFA'd or released.

Open roster spot, trade deadline approaching, hmm  ;)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 31, 2016, 10:36:52 PM
Barry Davis is reporting that Franklin Morales will not be with the Jays in Houston and that he has been DFA'd or released.

Open roster spot, trade deadline approaching, hmm  ;)

More likely has something to do with Tulo's injury. Sounds like they're hoping he won't have to be placed on the DL, but, they'll need another infielder on the roster until he's good to go.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 01, 2016, 03:39:02 PM
This should make Jays fans smile, Jesse Chavez has been traded to the Dodgers for starter Mike Bolsinger.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 01, 2016, 03:41:07 PM
Houston has traded RHP Scott Feldman to the Jays for minor league pitcher Guadalupe Chavez.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 01, 2016, 05:29:54 PM
This should make Jays fans smile, Jesse Chavez has been traded to the Dodgers for starter Mike Bolsinger.


Not really something to sing about, as Bolsinger, in six games with the Dodgers, sports a 6.83 ERA.  He is both a starter and reliever (minors). 
Guess he's versatile.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 01, 2016, 05:39:39 PM
Feldman,  on the other hand, is the real deal here.  His numbers speak for themselves -- 5 and 3 w/l record in five starts and a 2.90 ERA.  Switch him to a relief role and there he sported a 2.41 ERA.

Not bad for a player who has a lifetime 4.35 ERA (mostly in  starts).  Feldman brings experience where the Jays need it most, as he is a 12yr. veteran.



Source:  ESPN, GlobalNews, Sportsnet
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 02, 2016, 12:28:14 AM

Just like last year. Can win 9-1 but can't scratch out a run to save their lives.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 02, 2016, 01:25:07 PM
I just made the mistake of reading article comments over at sportsnet... oh dear lord... wow...

One guy was going on about how the jays are idiots for not getting sale... I mean.. words.. just... I can't.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 02, 2016, 10:43:30 PM
Good lord these strikeouts...

Although I don't count Josh 'black hole' thole.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Crucialness Key on August 03, 2016, 12:10:24 PM
Good lord these strikeouts...

Although I don't count Josh 'black hole' thole.

My understanding is that Thole is only on the roster to catch Dickey. If we assume Dickey won't be a starter in the post-season, could we dump Thole in favour of a call-up who can actually hit?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 03, 2016, 12:19:37 PM
Good lord these strikeouts...

Although I don't count Josh 'black hole' thole.

My understanding is that Thole is only on the roster to catch Dickey. If we assume Dickey won't be a starter in the post-season, could we dump Thole in favour of a call-up who can actually hit?

I suppose. If dickey doesn't make the post season roster then sure take thole off too. But I think it we'll have to way to see how Kratz does in Buffalo.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-sign-veteran-catcher-erik-kratz-minor-league-deal/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Potvin29 on August 03, 2016, 01:36:00 PM
Back up catchers just generally are not very good. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 03, 2016, 01:56:39 PM
Back up catchers just generally are not very good.

I agree - but Thole shouldn't even be in the MLB... I know it's a minor complaint relative to the rest of the team. I just worry if Martin gets hurt, you're basically giving the opposing team a free out every time he comes up to bat.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on August 03, 2016, 02:30:33 PM
Isn't Donaldson a former catcher?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on August 03, 2016, 02:51:18 PM
Isn't Donaldson a former catcher?

He is, but he doesn't have much experience behind the plate at the MLB level. The A's moved him out to 3B for a good reason. He definitely wouldn't be my first choice. If Martin were to get hurt for any length of time, I'd rather see the Jays give Jimenez a shot. He's not likely to be a significant producer, but he's put up respectable enough numbers in the minors that he might not be a complete offensive blackhole.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 03, 2016, 09:39:12 PM
Every single run the jays have scored so far in this Houston series has been a solo home run.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on August 03, 2016, 10:37:57 PM
Every single run the jays have scored so far in this Houston series has been a solo home run.

Up 3-1 but another 14 strikeouts.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 04, 2016, 08:43:30 AM
Leapin' flyballs!  Kevin Pillar makes the catch...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/gotta-see-pillar-dives-snag-altuves-screecher/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 04, 2016, 10:25:03 AM
Every single run the jays have scored so far in this Houston series has been a solo home run.

Up 3-1 but another 14 strikeouts.

It's like April and May all over again.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Potvin29 on August 04, 2016, 01:09:11 PM
Apparently there is something to do with LED lights or something that other teams/players have complained about in Houston.  Orioles set a record for strikeouts in a series or something like that there recently.

I wouldn't worry too much about it yet.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on August 04, 2016, 01:16:00 PM
Holy cow, Atkins is on his way to Houston to discuss the Sanchez situation with the Blue Jays coaching staff and Sanchez himself!  I hope they can sort this out in a way that it doesn't negatively affect the clubhouse.  I personally don't understand why they don't go to a 6 man rotation and then put Sanchez into the bullpen once the playoffs start.  What if the Jays are in the wild card game?  Don't you want Sanchez starting that game?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on August 04, 2016, 01:19:55 PM
Apparently there is something to do with LED lights or something that other teams/players have complained about in Houston.  Orioles set a record for strikeouts in a series or something like that there recently.

I wouldn't worry too much about it yet.

The radio broadcast mentioned the LED lights were whiter/brighter, which caused some haze effects; coupled with the lack of a true batters' eye out in center, it's clearly a contributing factor to visiting teams. No big deal though.

In other news:
https://sports.vice.com/ca/highlight/watch-marcus-stroman-show-other-canadian-superstars-how-to-throw-a-fastball
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2016, 02:38:20 PM
The radio broadcast mentioned the LED lights were whiter/brighter, which caused some haze effects; coupled with the lack of a true batters' eye out in center, it's clearly a contributing factor to visiting teams. No big deal though.

On the TV broadcast, they also noted how hard it can become to get a grip in the batter's box from the midpoint of the game, which would increase the levels of discomfort. That could also contribute to some of the issues.

Basically, there are a number of issues with an otherwise beautiful stadium from a baseball POV.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on August 04, 2016, 06:38:29 PM
As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on August 04, 2016, 07:04:17 PM
As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.

Edit: Removed for unnecessary post, end of day annoyance.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 04, 2016, 07:04:47 PM
Apparently they're going to go with a 6 man rotation for the time being.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 04, 2016, 07:08:28 PM
For a little statistical context it looks like the Astros pitchers in Houston tend to be about a full K/9 better at home than they are on the road. I don't know how that compares around the league. The Jays are only .2 higher this year at home and only .1 higher last year. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on August 04, 2016, 07:09:37 PM
As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ci_-eCBWkAA4t75.jpg)

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 04, 2016, 07:11:13 PM
As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.

Yes, it certainly is a mystery why people wouldn't want to engage.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on August 04, 2016, 07:14:56 PM
I'm happy Sanchez is going to stay in the rotation, but I don't know about a 6-man rotation. I guess it helps save Sanchez's arm and maybe Estrada's back, and I suppose if Liriano doesn't suck...
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 04, 2016, 07:20:39 PM
I'm happy Sanchez is going to stay in the rotation, but I don't know about a 6-man rotation. I guess it helps save Sanchez's arm and maybe Estrada's back, and I suppose if Liriano doesn't suck...

Yeah, I think the issue you usually have with a 6 man rotation is that not only are you taking innings from your five best starters and giving a bunch of innings to whoever is the 6th best starter on your staff but you're disrupting everyone's rest schedule for the purpose of doing so(with the caveat that the "purpose" here is clearly to compromise between leaving Sanchez in the rotation vs. sending him to the pen)

Regardless of how you feel about the sort of precautionary measures that are driving the move to put Sanchez in the bullpen, that seems like an awful lot of disruption in its service.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 04, 2016, 07:21:16 PM
Apparently liriano is OK going to the bullpen if that's what's needed. I guess he just wants a job.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 04, 2016, 07:24:15 PM
Happy to hear that management has at least budged on the Sanchez workload issue. It sounds like the 6 man rotation idea buys Sanchez another month in the rotation. This is great news for the Jays with the season he is having. Give him another month and then re-evaluate at the start of September on how Sanchez feels physically. Rosters will then expand and more options will be available should they need them. Seems like a smart, sensible approach to the situation.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2016, 07:32:31 PM
Regardless of how you feel about the sort of precautionary measures that are driving the move to put Sanchez in the bullpen, that seems like an awful lot of disruption in its service.

It's not ideal, that's for sure, but the Jays also have 6 off days the rest of the way, so they'll have opportunities to skip the 6th guy basically every 2nd time through the rotation.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 04, 2016, 07:49:34 PM
It's not ideal, that's for sure, but the Jays also have 6 off days the rest of the way, so they'll have opportunities to skip the 6th guy basically every 2nd time through the rotation.

Sure but in that case how many innings are you really saving for Sanchez in that case? I probably lean towards just leaving the rotation as is(although I'm not gung-ho on it either way) but I feel like either you have a good medical reason for effectively shutting him down or you don't.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on August 04, 2016, 08:01:11 PM
As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ci_-eCBWkAA4t75.jpg)
Hey man you can run the damn boards as far as I am concerned. That was the funniest thing I have seen all day.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 04, 2016, 11:04:59 PM
Happ leads the AL in wins and 6th in the AL in era
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on August 04, 2016, 11:47:41 PM
Happ leads the AL in wins and 6th in the AL in era

And Happ has probably been the 3rd best pitcher on the staff so far this year.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on August 05, 2016, 05:28:42 AM
As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.

I don't get it, did anybody disagree with or belittle your suggestion? You're just mad because nobody immediately responded? Wow.

And yes, this literally is a hockey board, what did you think TML stood for??
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 05, 2016, 06:18:11 AM
Holy cow, Atkins is on his way to Houston to discuss the Sanchez situation with the Blue Jays coaching staff and Sanchez himself!  I hope they can sort this out in a way that it doesn't negatively affect the clubhouse.  I personally don't understand why they don't go to a 6 man rotation and then put Sanchez into the bullpen once the playoffs start.  What if the Jays are in the wild card game?  Don't you want Sanchez starting that game?


The six man rotation it will be:  Stroman, Dixkey, Estrada, Happ, Liriano, Sanchez.

Atkins had this to say on the situation.

"What I think is the most likely scenario is that he stays in the rotation for some time to come," Atkins told reporters in Houston prior to Toronto's series finale with the Astros.

"I think what changed for us, a couple of things: input from more people, one of those people being Francisco Liriano, who was open to anything and everything," Atkins said. "That opened things up for us to think about things differently. And then talking to Aaron about it and how strongly he felt about staying in the rotation, that fortunately we're in a situation where we're able to do it."

"I think what we're going to do is really try to work with Aaron to give this team the best chance to win," Atkins said. "We do have thresholds that would be uncomfortable. There's not a scenario where he pitches 220, 230 innings.

"He's going to go into a territory that's uncomfortable and uncommon and he's comfortable with that. We've worked together on what that range or territory should be but there's so many variables that will contribute to what's best for him and this team."


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/aaron-sanchez-staying-rotation-6-starters-1.3708113
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on August 05, 2016, 08:07:08 AM
As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ci_-eCBWkAA4t75.jpg)
Hey man you can run the damn boards as far as I am concerned. That was the funniest thing I have seen all day.

Just trying to lighten the mood.  ;)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on August 05, 2016, 08:21:07 AM
Holy cow, Atkins is on his way to Houston to discuss the Sanchez situation with the Blue Jays coaching staff and Sanchez himself!  I hope they can sort this out in a way that it doesn't negatively affect the clubhouse.  I personally don't understand why they don't go to a 6 man rotation and then put Sanchez into the bullpen once the playoffs start.  What if the Jays are in the wild card game?  Don't you want Sanchez starting that game?


The six man rotation it will be:  Stroman, Dixkey, Estrada, Happ, Liriano, Sanchez.

Atkins had this to say on the situation.

"What I think is the most likely scenario is that he stays in the rotation for some time to come," Atkins told reporters in Houston prior to Toronto's series finale with the Astros.

"I think what changed for us, a couple of things: input from more people, one of those people being Francisco Liriano, who was open to anything and everything," Atkins said. "That opened things up for us to think about things differently. And then talking to Aaron about it and how strongly he felt about staying in the rotation, that fortunately we're in a situation where we're able to do it."

"I think what we're going to do is really try to work with Aaron to give this team the best chance to win," Atkins said. "We do have thresholds that would be uncomfortable. There's not a scenario where he pitches 220, 230 innings.

"He's going to go into a territory that's uncomfortable and uncommon and he's comfortable with that. We've worked together on what that range or territory should be but there's so many variables that will contribute to what's best for him and this team."


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/aaron-sanchez-staying-rotation-6-starters-1.3708113

Well at least Sanchez is comfortable with the uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on August 05, 2016, 09:36:29 AM
As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.

I don't get it, did anybody disagree with or belittle your suggestion? You're just mad because nobody immediately responded? Wow.

And yes, this literally is a hockey board, what did you think TML stood for??
I'm just frustrated.  There are several of the know-it-all types on here.  They constantly talk down everyone else and they carry on with this huge air of arrogance.  Their opinions are no more valid than anyone else's.  This place has never been very welcoming and the same people have been ruining the boards for years.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Potvin29 on August 05, 2016, 11:18:44 AM
As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.

I don't get it, did anybody disagree with or belittle your suggestion? You're just mad because nobody immediately responded? Wow.

And yes, this literally is a hockey board, what did you think TML stood for??
I'm just frustrated. There are several of the know-it-all types on here.  They constantly talk down everyone else and they carry on with this huge air of arrogance.  Their opinions are no more valid than anyone else's.  This place has never been very welcoming and the same people have been ruining the boards for years.

In your first post in question you state that you are completely right and the rest of the posters are "out to lunch" while in this most recent post you are lamenting/complaining that the board contains several "know-it-all types" who talk down/carry a huge air of arrogance.  How would saying you are completely right and everyone else is out to lunch not also be considered behaviour of someone thinking they "know-it-all" and talking down to other posters?

I think almost everyone here can be guilty of it from time to time, of coming off harshly, but it would seem hypocritical to complain about something that it could be argued you have done within this thread.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on August 05, 2016, 04:50:21 PM
As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.

I don't get it, did anybody disagree with or belittle your suggestion? You're just mad because nobody immediately responded? Wow.

And yes, this literally is a hockey board, what did you think TML stood for??
I'm just frustrated. There are several of the know-it-all types on here.  They constantly talk down everyone else and they carry on with this huge air of arrogance.  Their opinions are no more valid than anyone else's.  This place has never been very welcoming and the same people have been ruining the boards for years.

In your first post in question you state that you are completely right and the rest of the posters are "out to lunch" while in this most recent post you are lamenting/complaining that the board contains several "know-it-all types" who talk down/carry a huge air of arrogance.  How would saying you are completely right and everyone else is out to lunch not also be considered behaviour of someone thinking they "know-it-all" and talking down to other posters?

I think almost everyone here can be guilty of it from time to time, of coming off harshly, but it would seem hypocritical to complain about something that it could be argued you have done within this thread.
I'm only posting like that in response to all the arrogant nonsense on here. This forum breeds a culture of it. I said it to make a point.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on August 05, 2016, 06:07:51 PM
Greetings, friends. I, for one, do not feel that this forum is arrogant. I appreciate the nearly scholarly effort some people put into helping people like me understand the game of hockey (and the world at large).

And now, kindling for what is turning into a semi-annual flame out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

More on topic: 6-man rotation = more rest for Estrada (or whoever else might need it)? I don't know. They can do whatever they want. I'm still bemoaning the missed opportunity to have a rotation of Syndergaard, Sanchez, Stroman.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 06, 2016, 12:33:54 PM
Blue Jays' starting pitchers so far rank first in the A.L. In ERA, WHIP, & WAR.

Also, the Jays have accumulated a 41-23 w/l record since May 19 -- the best in the American League.


Source:  SportsnetCentral
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 06, 2016, 09:55:31 PM
I have a very strong dislike of smoak.

And Upton... Dude just swings 3 times and sits down.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on August 06, 2016, 10:24:49 PM
Greetings, friends. I, for one, do not feel that this forum is arrogant. I appreciate the nearly scholarly effort some people put into helping people like me understand the game of hockey (and the world at large).

And now, kindling for what is turning into a semi-annual flame out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

More on topic: 6-man rotation = more rest for Estrada (or whoever else might need it)? I don't know. They can do whatever they want. I'm still bemoaning the missed opportunity to have a rotation of Syndergaard, Sanchez, Stroman.
What you're going to psychoanalyze me?  F that.  I say we take a look inside Herman's head...

(http://splitsider.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/05/c3beb30fa33419d17ca6c0ad618cbf5f1cb288aecbc8496cdebcfda911b3ede5.jpg)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on August 06, 2016, 11:47:17 PM
I have a very strong dislike of smoak.

And Upton... Dude just swings 3 times and sits down.

Smoak's extension is baffling to me.  He's 29 and is coming off a career best .768 OPS season as a 1B/DH only player.  He can't hit offspeed pitches at all.  Smoak is what he is.  Certainly not a guy who needed a 2-year extension. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on August 07, 2016, 10:47:17 AM
I have a very strong dislike of smoak.

And Upton... Dude just swings 3 times and sits down.

Smoak's extension is baffling to me.  He's 29 and is coming off a career best .768 OPS season as a 1B/DH only player.  He can't hit offspeed pitches at all.  Smoak is what he is.  Certainly not a guy who needed a 2-year extension.
At $4 million per season I'm ok with his extension.  Encarnacion is not durable enough to play first base every day and Smoak is better than him defensively.  Smoak saved the game the other day actually with a nice dig at first base at the end of the game.

There is also the fact that Edwin may walk.  Now at least we have Smoak.

I'm not saying I like him either but the price is right and he's an ok fill in until they can find someone better in the event that Edwin walks.  He's going to earn a massive contract.  He's on pace for 50+ home runs and something like 140RBI.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 07, 2016, 11:01:01 AM
Smoak's extension is baffling to me.  He's 29 and is coming off a career best .768 OPS season as a 1B/DH only player.  He can't hit offspeed pitches at all.  Smoak is what he is.  Certainly not a guy who needed a 2-year extension.

Yeah, that's a weird one. Even if the Jays lose both Edwin and Jose(who really needs to be moved out of RF) then you really have to question when they'll ever want to give a lot of at-bats to a guy who's essentially been a replacement level player his whole career(1.8 career WAR).
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on August 07, 2016, 04:39:44 PM
Gibbons needs to stop relying on Cecil.  He's not good.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 07, 2016, 05:01:04 PM
Saunders had been a whole lot of nothing since the all star break
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 08, 2016, 11:55:43 AM
Saunders had been a whole lot of nothing since the all star break


He has significantly cooled off since then, which has seen his batting average floundering at .132 in his 53 at-bats so far.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on August 09, 2016, 10:11:05 AM
Went to last night's eventful game.

Thoughts:
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on August 09, 2016, 10:34:03 AM
Gibbons needs to stop relying on Cecil.  He's not good.
He basically went a season without giving up a run. Gibbons waited out Stroman's bad play as well as Tulo's and it paid off. We need good L handers in the pen. Hopefully he comes around too. A lot of the decisions Gibbons has made that I disagree with turn out in hind sight to be good decisions.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on August 09, 2016, 10:38:10 AM

Jose saved two sac fly tag ups (one would've been a run) by reputation alone, as he didn't look like he was going to make any good throws that game.

I cringe every time he even considers throwing hard from the outfield. I am afraid he's going to hurt himself and don't really believe his arm is as good as it was.

Why don't we ever ever bunt? Many a 2-runners with less than 2 outs situation and a crummy hitter comes up to whiff out or ground into worse.

I wish they would play more small ball as well. What's wrong with scoring runs, bank them when you can.

43k+ people on a Monday night vs the last place team in the division made for a surprisingly rockin' dome

Should have lots of $ to dish out, let's sign a least one of Edwin or Bautista, what budget... give me a break.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on August 11, 2016, 02:46:09 PM

Jose saved two sac fly tag ups (one would've been a run) by reputation alone, as he didn't look like he was going to make any good throws that game.

I cringe every time he even considers throwing hard from the outfield. I am afraid he's going to hurt himself and don't really believe his arm is as good as it was.

Hurt himself throwing... not his arm but still hurt himself. Losing millions and millions with his recent play and injuries given his age.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 11, 2016, 11:44:29 PM
Patrick Roy, now ex-coach & V.P. of player operations  and Joe Sakic (current GM), were as different in personalities as night and day, with Ray being temperamental & outspoken, and Sakic being  quiet  & unassuming in his ways.

So, it's safe to say that the two were obviously at loggerheads concerning the direction and status of the team in general,

This may give some insight:

Sakic, the so-called GM, and Roy, the coach who was always suspected of having a major say in personnel moves.

Only this summer rumour has it that Roy was the one making the decisions on which scouts remained in the Avs employ and which ones didnít.

Did he want Sakic to hold on to Ryan OíReilly last summer, when Sakic dealt him to Buffalo? Was he against keeping defenceman Tyson Barrie, who finally settled on a contract in Denver last month? Did Roy wish for Matt Duchene to be moved, and Sakic either wouldnít comply or couldnít find a satisfactory deal?

What GM would want a coach who demands a weighty say in all personnel issues? And what coach, considering the tepid success Roy has had at the NHL level, would want to divide his own attention that way?


http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/roys-desire-total-control-recipe-failure/



Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on August 11, 2016, 11:50:45 PM
Patrick Roy, now ex-coach & V.P. of player operations  and Joe Sakic (current GM), were as different in personalities as night and day, with Ray being temperamental & outspoken, and Sakic being  quiet  & unassuming in his ways.

So, it's safe to say that the two were obviously at loggerheads concerning the direction and status of the team in general,

This may give some insight:

Sakic, the so-called GM, and Roy, the coach who was always suspected of having a major say in personnel moves.

Only this summer rumour has it that Roy was the one making the decisions on which scouts remained in the Avs employ and which ones didnít.

Did he want Sakic to hold on to Ryan OíReilly last summer, when Sakic dealt him to Buffalo? Was he against keeping defenceman Tyson Barrie, who finally settled on a contract in Denver last month? Did Roy wish for Matt Duchene to be moved, and Sakic either wouldnít comply or couldnít find a satisfactory deal?

What GM would want a coach who demands a weighty say in all personnel issues? And what coach, considering the tepid success Roy has had at the NHL level, would want to divide his own attention that way?


http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/roys-desire-total-control-recipe-failure/

Wrong sport and thread. ;)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 12, 2016, 12:52:35 AM
Patrick Roy, now ex-coach & V.P. of player operations  and Joe Sakic (current GM), were as different in personalities as night and day, with Ray being temperamental & outspoken, and Sakic being  quiet  & unassuming in his ways.

So, it's safe to say that the two were obviously at loggerheads concerning the direction and status of the team in general,

This may give some insight:

Sakic, the so-called GM, and Roy, the coach who was always suspected of having a major say in personnel moves.

Only this summer rumour has it that Roy was the one making the decisions on which scouts remained in the Avs employ and which ones didnít.

Did he want Sakic to hold on to Ryan OíReilly last summer, when Sakic dealt him to Buffalo? Was he against keeping defenceman Tyson Barrie, who finally settled on a contract in Denver last month? Did Roy wish for Matt Duchene to be moved, and Sakic either wouldnít comply or couldnít find a satisfactory deal?

What GM would want a coach who demands a weighty say in all personnel issues? And what coach, considering the tepid success Roy has had at the NHL level, would want to divide his own attention that way?


http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/roys-desire-total-control-recipe-failure/

Wrong sport and thread. ;)


Cripes!  How did this happen??  I was using my stylus on my smartphone and thought I had the proper page saved which I did, but due to email notifications & navigating through the different thread topics, a mixup occurred. (*sigh*)

Thanks for the alert, HS.  I'll redirect it accordingly.  :)
 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on August 12, 2016, 08:02:46 AM
Patrick Roy, now ex-coach & V.P. of player operations  and Joe Sakic (current GM), were as different in personalities as night and day, with Ray being temperamental & outspoken, and Sakic being  quiet  & unassuming in his ways.

So, it's safe to say that the two were obviously at loggerheads concerning the direction and status of the team in general,

This may give some insight:

Sakic, the so-called GM, and Roy, the coach who was always suspected of having a major say in personnel moves.

Only this summer rumour has it that Roy was the one making the decisions on which scouts remained in the Avs employ and which ones didnít.

Did he want Sakic to hold on to Ryan OíReilly last summer, when Sakic dealt him to Buffalo? Was he against keeping defenceman Tyson Barrie, who finally settled on a contract in Denver last month? Did Roy wish for Matt Duchene to be moved, and Sakic either wouldnít comply or couldnít find a satisfactory deal?

What GM would want a coach who demands a weighty say in all personnel issues? And what coach, considering the tepid success Roy has had at the NHL level, would want to divide his own attention that way?


http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/roys-desire-total-control-recipe-failure/

Wrong sport and thread. ;)

However, if the Jays hire Roy, then credit must be given to HockeyFan for the prognostication factor.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 12, 2016, 02:29:05 PM
LOL!  :)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 14, 2016, 01:06:02 PM
Why would they get a message from clemens?

I'm watching the ceremony with my son... He loves the 80s mustaches.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on August 15, 2016, 10:57:19 AM
Ticket prices going up:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/toronto-blue-jays-restructure-ticket-pricing-system/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/toronto-blue-jays-restructure-ticket-pricing-system/)

Time to sign Edwin.

Asked if the new pricing structure is expected to increase the revenue-per-ticket for the Blue Jays, Miller replied: ďThatís hard to say. Our goal is make sure that weíre aligning value for the fans, so weíre trying to give more choice for some fans that may be selecting games that they otherwise wouldnít have selected in different parts of the season.Ē

Huh? Give me a break... obviously it will increase revenue.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on August 18, 2016, 10:03:35 AM
ICYMI: Yesterday's afternoon game featured Donaldson and Gibby getting into a bit of a situation.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/17331098/blue-jays-josh-donaldson-uses-humor-brush-dustup-manager-john-gibbons

Here's more of a write up: https://sports.vice.com/en_us/highlight/josh-donaldson-john-gibbons-and-a-tale-of-four-innings

Edit: Gibby's side of the story:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/gibbons-flare-donaldson-bat-choice-not-big-deal/

WHO TO BELIEVE?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 18, 2016, 10:10:19 AM

I like Donaldson the player but he does come off as a guy who probably says "Brah" a lot.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on August 18, 2016, 10:12:51 AM

I like Donaldson the player but he does come off as a guy who probably says "Brah" a lot.

Playing third base kind of gets to you after awhile.

(http://assets4.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/lawrie_brett_640.jpg)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 18, 2016, 11:43:45 AM

I like Donaldson the player but he does come off as a guy who probably says "Brah" a lot.

Maybe - he seems more like the kind of guy who'd be wrangling gators if he wasn't playing ball...

I see Lawrie more as the 'brah' type
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 18, 2016, 01:14:15 PM

I like Donaldson the player but he does come off as a guy who probably says "Brah" a lot.

Maybe - he seems more like the kind of guy who'd be wrangling gators if he wasn't playing ball...

I see Lawrie more as the 'brah' type

I've always thought of Lawrie as more of a "Bro" kind of guy. The difference is subtle but serious.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on August 18, 2016, 01:37:30 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyWNCrxVzPU[/youtube]

He's actually quite well spoken, at least on matters of kinesthetic mechanics. He rebuilt his swing pretty late (based on Bautista's) and that put him on the board.

It's more of a softball swing than a traditional baseball quick hands swing.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Boston Leaf on August 18, 2016, 03:16:25 PM
I know this is not popular around her but I find Donaldson kind of a meat head.. albeit a talented one
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on August 18, 2016, 03:32:44 PM
I know this is not popular around her but I find Donaldson kind of a meat head.. albeit a talented one

I see him as more hot headed than meat headed, but I totally get where you're coming from. There is still a tremendous intelligence behind his talent: how he re-tooled his swing despite decades of coaching otherwise, his routes and footwork to balls chopped his way all indicate a very sharp, analytic mind behind the gusto.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 18, 2016, 06:44:53 PM

I like Donaldson the player but he does come off as a guy who probably says "Brah" a lot.

Maybe - he seems more like the kind of guy who'd be wrangling gators if he wasn't playing ball...

I see Lawrie more as the 'brah' type

I've always thought of Lawrie as more of a "Bro" kind of guy. The difference is subtle but serious.

I was unaware there was a difference. Tmlfans.ca,  a treasure trove of information.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on August 19, 2016, 09:10:42 AM
Gradually renewing my Stroman hype, to match my Sanchez/Estrada/Happ hype.

http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2016/08/19/stroman-is-sliding-back-to-the-front-of-the-rotation/

More ground balls in front of Donaldson, Tulowitski, and Travis is a good thing.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on August 19, 2016, 04:27:59 PM
Ugly lineup today:

1 Travis
2 Saunders
3 Edwin
4 Martin
5 Upton
6 Carrera
7 Smoak
8 Barney
9 Goins

No Bautista, Pilar, Donaldson, or Tulo
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 26, 2016, 07:18:55 PM
Jays just traded for Dioner Navarro! Welcome back!
Indicates Thole and Dickey not likely to be part of the post-season roster.
White Sox get minor league LHP Colton Turner in return.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 26, 2016, 11:07:22 PM
Jays just traded for Dioner Navarro! Welcome back!
Indicates Thole and Dickey not likely to be part of the post-season roster.
White Sox get minor league LHP Colton Turner in return.


Glad Navarro's back!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 27, 2016, 09:41:27 AM
(http://d2x3wmakafwqf5.cloudfront.net/wordpress/wp-content/blogs.dir/51/files/2016/04/Navarro-Police-Cigar.jpg)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 27, 2016, 06:05:56 PM

In the parlance of our times "The last two weekends of the Blue Jays be like:"

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPVLyB0Yc6I[/youtube]
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on August 28, 2016, 04:02:32 PM
Hat trick
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 28, 2016, 05:14:51 PM
Hat trick

It's going to be a fun MVP race.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 28, 2016, 06:30:19 PM
You think so? I thought altuve pretty much had it wrapped up... Unless he falls off a cliff in September...
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 28, 2016, 06:41:41 PM
You think so? I thought altuve pretty much had it wrapped up... Unless he falls off a cliff in September...

I think he's probably the favourite but just for reference sake:

AL WAR leaders:

Trout 8.2
Betts 7.5
Altuve 7.3
Donaldson 6.3
Machado 6.1

So you'll have some stats guys arguing for Trout, you'll have the East Coast media presence probably in Betts' corner and you'll have the very real possibility that the Astros don't make the playoffs potentially hurting Altuve(which shouldn't matter but tends to.)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 28, 2016, 06:54:12 PM

For some context, some players WAR totals for their first five years:

Mike Trout: 45.4 WAR

Ted Williams: 45.1

Willie Mays: 39.4

Mickey Mantle: 39.4

Lou Gehrig: 38.7

A-Rod: 38.6

Hank Aaron: 37.2

Joe Dimaggio: 33.5

Barry Bonds: 33.2

To find ahead of Trout you basically have to go back to Babe Ruth who, remember, spent the first 5 years of his career pitching and didn't become an everyday hitter until he was 24.

Trout's led the league in WAR each of his first five seasons and put up years that significantly eclipse most of the best players in baseball history. He'll probably have one MVP to show for it.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on August 28, 2016, 09:15:41 PM
You think so? I thought altuve pretty much had it wrapped up... Unless he falls off a cliff in September...

I think it's probably Bett's to lose, for a lot of the reasons Nik mentions.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 29, 2016, 03:09:51 PM
Those are all good points... I guess I'm still stuck in traditional metrics - I really need to start diving into advanced metrics and making the effort to understand them...

On a completely separate note, why is the media treating what is happening to thole like it's a thing? He's about as valuable to this team as Venditte was...
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on August 29, 2016, 03:31:50 PM
On a completely separate note, why is the media treating what is happening to thole like it's a thing? He's about as valuable to this team as Venditte was...

Lack of negative things to talk about.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 29, 2016, 04:13:33 PM
Those are all good points... I guess I'm still stuck in traditional metrics - I really need to start diving into advanced metrics and making the effort to understand them...

Kind of interestingly Altuve's bWAR is almost entirely a result of his hitting, with a offensive WAR of 7.2(putting him just behind Trout). Betts is a ways behind at 5.3 but he closes the gap because he's grading as having a spectacular defensive season.

So that might tilt things a little bit in Altuve's way. I think defensive ability is harder to gauge and with less certainty so with Altuve being a reigning gold glover some people out there might read the defense as a wash despite the advanced numbers and just look at Altuve's significantly better year at the plate.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Potvin29 on August 29, 2016, 04:20:01 PM
Which is more accurate, bWAR or fWAR? Donaldson ranks 2nd in the AL in fWAR behind Trout (7.2 to 6.9).
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on August 29, 2016, 04:22:12 PM
Kind of interestingly Altuve's bWAR is almost entirely a result of his hitting, with a offensive WAR of 7.2(putting him just behind Trout). Betts is a ways behind at 5.3 but he closes the gap because he's grading as having a spectacular defensive season.

So that might tilt things a little bit in Altuve's way. I think defensive ability is harder to gauge and with less certainty so with Altuve being a reigning gold glover some people out there might read the defense as a wash despite the advanced numbers and just look at Altuve's significantly better year at the plate.

I dunno. I also think a lot of the old school voters will look at Betts' numbers and see the kinds of numbers they like to see that Altuve may not be able to reach - 30+ HR, 100+ RBIs, etc - and feel like that more than makes up for the difference between their respective batting averages. The rest of their raw numbers are awfully close. I mean, to an old school type, the only thing Altuve really has on Betts is that he walks more - and, I can see them not valuing that anywhere close as high as they should.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 29, 2016, 04:29:35 PM
I dunno. I also think a lot of the old school voters will look at Betts' numbers and see the kinds of numbers they like to see that Altuve may not be able to reach - 30+ HR, 100+ RBIs, etc - and feel like that more than makes up for the difference between their respective batting averages. The rest of their raw numbers are awfully close. I mean, to an old school type, the only thing Altuve really has on Betts is that he walks more - and, I can see them not valuing that anywhere close as high as they should.

Betts is only 7 RBI up on Altuve(94 to 87) so it seems pretty likely that they'll both hit 100. Altuve will probably finish with 25+ homeruns so I don't know how big a deal that will be.

I think old school writers really like it when guys lead the league in traditional stat categories, something Altuve is doing right now in hits and batting average. Betts is leading the league in total bases which is probably more significant but fits less of a narrative.

Either way, if I had to guess the finish right now I'd guess 1. Altuve 2. Betts 3. Donaldson. If you asked me who I'd vote for it'd probably be 1. Trout 2. Altuve 3. Donaldson.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 29, 2016, 04:33:32 PM
Which is more accurate, bWAR or fWAR? Donaldson ranks 2nd in the AL in fWAR behind Trout (7.2 to 6.9).

I don't think it's a question of either being more accurate than the other because there's no definitive answer to the question of what makes one ball player more valuable than the other. You just have to look at their methods and decide which one you like better really. Both have value though. I'm not as big into the FIPS stuff as fangraphs is(as far as I recall) so I like BR better.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on September 02, 2016, 12:32:10 PM
Can someone explain to me what just happened with Thole?

Please and thank you.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on September 02, 2016, 12:36:18 PM
Can someone explain to me what just happened with Thole?

Please and thank you.
They got rid of him to make room for Navarro and now that the roster has expanded they had room to bring him back.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 06, 2016, 10:45:28 PM

Have to give the Jays credit, they're finding new and exciting ways to lose 1 run ballgames. They're really exploring the studio space.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 07, 2016, 04:18:26 AM
Fourth loss in five games.  This is September.  While everyone else is shoring themselves up, the Blue Jays are free-falling.

Poor base-running, weak offence or clutch hitting, defensive miscues, blah, blah, blah.   Sure the Jays lost by close scores, still, the simple fact remains, they lost.

Now that the Red Sox have tied them for the A.L. East lead, and the Orioles & Yankees making a grab for it as well, the real race has begun...

C'mon Blue Jays, get going!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TBLeafer on September 10, 2016, 09:45:01 AM
Last night they didn't lose by a close score.  >:(
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 14, 2016, 02:41:06 PM
THE SKY IS FALLING! It truly is, this awful streak just keeps going and going. We all know their not this bad but COME ON, SNAP OUT OF IT!

6 man rotation? Looming contracts? Don't care... figure it out.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 15, 2016, 12:42:47 AM
THE SKY IS FALLING! It truly is, this awful streak just keeps going and going. We all know their not this bad but COME ON, SNAP OUT OF IT!

6 man rotation? Looming contracts? Don't care... figure it out.


Strange isn't it?  How the Blue Jays are floundering at a time when other teams are ramping up their game.  Obviously, as this team has been winning and doing well for most of the the season until now, one can't say that the Blue Jays have 'run out of gas'.  Or, have they?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on September 15, 2016, 01:42:26 PM
More good news!

http://www.tsn.ca/report-jays-estrada-has-herniated-disc-1.567454
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 18, 2016, 11:13:44 AM
With the Jays' 8-1 loss to Anaheim last night,  they are now 3GBL in the A.L. East, tied with Baltimore.  Wild Cardrace also has the Jays and the Orioles deadlocked for top spot.

Worth noting: if playoffs were to be played now, Jays & Orioles would face-off in a sudden-death game (to determine A.L.Wild Card winner), and the winning team would get to face the Texas Rangers.

The pressure on the Blue Jays is enormous and every single game from here on in counts, loss or win, either way will make or break their hopes to overtake a Boston team that's ressembling last season's Jays.

GO JAYS GO!!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on September 19, 2016, 12:03:13 PM
Do we really think this is Gibby's fault?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on September 19, 2016, 04:10:13 PM
I imagine this is what 1987 felt like
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on September 19, 2016, 05:55:21 PM
Do we really think this is Gibby's fault?

I really have never been a big supporter of Gibbons so I'm really not going to go out of my way to defend him, and I'm not.

If there is anyone I would be pointing a finger at it might be the hitting coach.  The Jays have been pitched outside all year.  They aren't adjusting.  That's either a fault of the hitting coach to not find a strategy against it, or a guy who can't command enough presence to get the players to follow through on adjustments.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on September 19, 2016, 07:39:55 PM
If there is anyone I would be pointing a finger at it might be the hitting coach.  The Jays have been pitched outside all year.  They aren't adjusting.  That's either a fault of the hitting coach to not find a strategy against it, or a guy who can't command enough presence to get the players to follow through on adjustments.

Yeah. Though, I do blame Gibby for not having the team start playing small ball more early in the season when it was already clear that they weren't going to power their way to wins in the same way as last season.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on September 20, 2016, 12:06:53 AM
I am forbidden by tradition from mentioning anything notable about tonight's Jays game.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on September 20, 2016, 12:12:25 AM
Oh, nevermind...
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 20, 2016, 01:08:50 AM
Oh, nevermind...

You thought you could hoodwink the Baseball gods presumably?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on September 20, 2016, 12:37:03 PM
If there is anyone I would be pointing a finger at it might be the hitting coach.  The Jays have been pitched outside all year.  They aren't adjusting.  That's either a fault of the hitting coach to not find a strategy against it, or a guy who can't command enough presence to get the players to follow through on adjustments.

Yeah. Though, I do blame Gibby for not having the team start playing small ball more early in the season when it was already clear that they weren't going to power their way to wins in the same way as last season.

I was surprised to see they did not learn anything at all from the way they got rolled by Kansas in the ALCS.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 21, 2016, 07:29:11 AM
The best the Jays can hope for is a Wild Card spot -- currently +1G over the Orioles there  by way of a 10-2 whitewash of the Seattle Mariners last night.  Jays' starter J.A. Happ earned his 20th win of the year, becoming the sixth player in franchise history to achieve the milestone.

Forget winning the A.L. East as the Red Sox have amassed a +4G lead over the Jays.  Unless Boston suffers a total (col)lapse, it won't be getting any easier for the Jays to overtake them than it already is (which isn't).
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 21, 2016, 02:26:04 PM
I'm not giving up the ALE, still got three games left against the Boston. Let's end the regular season on a run!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 21, 2016, 07:09:05 PM

Don't think the recent swoon is Gibbons' fault but that last inning shows why I don't really like him as a manager. Top of 10th, runner on second and nobody out and plays like that one run is the only thing in the world. Pinch runner, sac bunt.....line out and strike out.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on September 22, 2016, 04:29:59 AM

Don't think the recent swoon is Gibbons' fault but that last inning shows why I don't really like him as a manager. Top of 10th, runner on second and nobody out and plays like that one run is the only thing in the world. Pinch runner, sac bunt.....line out and strike out.

Honestly, I took greater issue with his bullpen management.  He had Barnes in the game, pulled him for the lefty matchups...while Barnes is pretty much unhittable against lefties.  Loup comes in, walks both batters he faces and they eek out of the inning.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 22, 2016, 10:29:46 AM

Don't think the recent swoon is Gibbons' fault but that last inning shows why I don't really like him as a manager. Top of 10th, runner on second and nobody out and plays like that one run is the only thing in the world. Pinch runner, sac bunt.....line out and strike out.

Honestly, I took greater issue with his bullpen management.  He had Barnes in the game, pulled him for the lefty matchups...while Barnes is pretty much unhittable against lefties.  Loup comes in, walks both batters he faces and they eek out of the inning.
Donaldson of all people didn't make two plays in the 12th... bad throw then missed catch... which cost them the winning run against.

Yeah, first and second no out... Joey Batz up... bunt?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 22, 2016, 01:12:42 PM

Don't think the recent swoon is Gibbons' fault but that last inning shows why I don't really like him as a manager. Top of 10th, runner on second and nobody out and plays like that one run is the only thing in the world. Pinch runner, sac bunt.....line out and strike out.

Honestly, I took greater issue with his bullpen management.  He had Barnes in the game, pulled him for the lefty matchups...while Barnes is pretty much unhittable against lefties.  Loup comes in, walks both batters he faces and they eek out of the inning.

To that point this from 538:

Baseball's savviest and crappiest Bullpen managers (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/baseballs-savviest-and-crappiest-bullpen-managers/?ex_cid=story-twitter)

Spoiler alert: Gibbons is not one of the savviest.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 23, 2016, 08:34:50 AM
Final homestand for the Jays starts tonight as they open up a four-game series against the NYYankees.

With just ten games remaining on the season, this upcoming series may very well determine the Jays' post-season hopes.  Looks like our boys need a boost...

GO JAYS GO!!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 26, 2016, 08:53:15 AM
Final homestand for the Jays starts tonight as they open up a four-game series against the NYYankees.

With just ten games remaining on the season, this upcoming series may very well determine the Jays' post-season hopes.  Looks like our boys need a boost...

GO JAYS GO!!
Great run of baseball by the Jays right now. Hoping their peaking at the right time. It's unfortunate the Red Sox have won 11 straight. Looks like Baltimore or Detroit in the wildcard game.

Ask me how their season went after the wildcard game, not before.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 26, 2016, 01:12:35 PM

Sad weekend for baseball though. Vin Scully's last game in Dodger Stadium(which was great) and the untimely passing of Jose Fernandez.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 27, 2016, 01:49:55 AM
Jays, Yankees engage in brawl, as Blue Jays lose 7-5.  Yankees avoid getting swept in the four-game series.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-yankees-benches-clear-batters-get-hit/

The Jays still hold the 1 game Wildcard lead over the Orioles, who will start a three game series with the Jays that begins tonight.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 27, 2016, 02:08:15 AM
For Blue Jays President Mark Shapiro, the death of Miami Marlins pitching ace Jose Fernandez hits close to home...

For Shapiro the news brought back a wave of personal memories from spring training of 1993, when he was a member of the Cleveland Indians front office. In March of that year Indians relievers Steve Olin and Tim Crews were killed in a spring training boating accident that seriously injured left-hander Bob Ojeda. After those losses, baseball games seemed insignificant in comparison.

ďBaseballís one of those games thatís unforgiving in the sense that it keeps moving, it keeps going,Ē Shapiro said. ďThereís a comfort to that, but thereís also a cruelty to that."

ďWe all deal with that whether itís kids being born, family members lost, it keeps moving. Itís a hard thing to get past for a team and an organization. Not being (in Miami) itís hard to begin to think about. The only reason I can begin to think about it is because I went through something as terrible and as horrific.Ē

ďWhen you live in close quarters with people for 183 days and spring training, in a lot of ways baseball becomes your family,Ē Shapiro said. ďYou lean on people more than you think. There are stronger leaders than you ever know and thereís greater comfort being with each other than with anyone else. Itís a reminder that the clubhouse is your home and the team is your family.Ē

ďYou tend to forget, particularly people watching from a distance, you tend to forget that these guys doing super-human things for three hours a day are just human beings, just people,Ē Shapiro said. ďEverybody probably goes home and pays a little more attention with their loved ones."


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/devastating-loss-marlins-jose-fernandez-felt-rogers-centre/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/devastating-loss-marlins-jose-fernandez-felt-rogers-centre/)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 27, 2016, 05:38:59 PM

Hey, you know what's mindblowingly stupid? Getting into fights against 4th place teams:

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/17654126/joaquin-benoit-toronto-blue-jays-tears-calf-melee-vs-new-york-yankees (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/17654126/joaquin-benoit-toronto-blue-jays-tears-calf-melee-vs-new-york-yankees)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on September 28, 2016, 12:48:50 AM

Hey, you know what's mindblowingly stupid? Getting into fights against 4th place teams:

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/17654126/joaquin-benoit-toronto-blue-jays-tears-calf-melee-vs-new-york-yankees (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/17654126/joaquin-benoit-toronto-blue-jays-tears-calf-melee-vs-new-york-yankees)

Especially with Grilli getting hit around a few times in the last few games.  Nothing screams 2015 playoffs like the bullpen getting hurt by a key injury.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 28, 2016, 10:23:11 PM

The Bullpen's imploding is going to get most of the attention but I just can't stand the smallball nonsense. Let Donaldson hit with someone on base maybe.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on September 28, 2016, 10:50:02 PM

The Bullpen's imploding is going to get most of the attention but I just can't stand the smallball nonsense. Let Donaldson hit with someone on base maybe.

6 hits total, 0 runs after the 2nd inning. The bullpen hasn't been great but this offense (or lack thereof) is really killing them. Wasted yet another great SP effort.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on September 29, 2016, 10:56:44 AM
The Bullpen's imploding is going to get most of the attention but I just can't stand the smallball nonsense. Let Donaldson hit with someone on base maybe.

I think smallball is an important aspect of winning in the postseason and such, but, like with the bullpen, I'm not sure Gibbons has a good grasp of how to use it. It's to help bottom of the order guys create runs, not to move guys up 90 feet for power bats, or to help generate the winning run in extra innings, etc.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 29, 2016, 04:05:55 PM
Jays are selling tickets to a wild card tie breaker game that they could host if the Jays tie for the second wildcard spot. There seems to be about a million ways this could still theoretically play out so here's an idea... WIN GOD DAMN IT. The Jays are sole possession of the first wild position so lock it down.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 30, 2016, 09:40:15 AM
Pivotal three-game final season series tonight against the Red Sox in Boston.

The Jays are now in a must-win mode.  Their offence needs to start rolling, and, if last night's 4-0 loss to the Orioles is any indication, it does not bode well right now for the Jays.

So...GO JAYS GO!!!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 30, 2016, 04:03:22 PM
Pivotal three-game final season series tonight against the Red Sox in Boston.

The Jays are now in a must-win mode.  Their offence needs to start rolling, and, if last night's 4-0 loss to the Orioles is any indication, it does not bode well right now for the Jays.

So...GO JAYS GO!!!
Estrada, Happ, and Sanchez lined up for BOS. Hopefully we win the first two and then save Sanchez for the WC. Very wishful thinking considering how things have gone of late. If we do limp into the wildcard game we might have to go with Stroman. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the Jays season is done on/by Tuesday.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: KW Sluggo on September 30, 2016, 11:15:13 PM
Well, we are not going to win the first two in Boston, that much we now know.

Baltimore won in New York and with the Yankees out of it, the Orioles have to be favoured to win at least one of the remaining two games.

With Detroit closing out the season against a weak Atlanta team, the Blue Jays pretty much have to win their remaining two games in Boston which is a tall order based upon their September record.

I am afraid we may be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

What a waste, what a disappointment.

The Blue Jays had meaningful games in September but seldom played meaningful baseball.

If there is a general housecleaning this summer of Encarnacion, Bautista and Saunders (although he's been AWOL since the ASG in my opinion), it may be a while before we get this close again. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 01, 2016, 05:21:26 AM
This team has had a rollercoaster of a month, for want of a better term, when ore considers that the Jays were +2 games ahead of the competition & in first place in  the A.L. East Division in early September...

...then, they fell from grace, so to speak,  as they tumbled to being  -6GBL...

...in position +1 of the first Wildcard spot... and now....fighting just to stay afloat for a Wildcard spot, nearly out of the playoffs but barely hanging in there. 

Only two games left.  Must win.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on October 01, 2016, 09:33:24 AM


If there is a general housecleaning this summer of Encarnacion, Bautista and Saunders (although he's been AWOL since the ASG in my opinion), it may be a while before we get this close again.

I don't think that's necessarily true. There is the semblance of a pretty good team left even with those guys gone (and yea, Saunders, with his anemic offense and atrocious defense, won't be a loss).

You have Donaldson, Travis, Tulo and Martin to build around and you're starting with a rotation next year of Sanchez, Estrada, Stroman, Happ and Liriano. There will be plenty of $ to spend to fill in some of those other offensive and bullpen gaps (hopefully they spend it).

I think they are set to finally build a strong, lasting team, as opposed to last year's incarnation which looked to have about a 1.5- year shelf life (which apparently turned out to be 1 instead). A new manager, corner outfielders who can actually field a ball, and a couple of good bullpen pieces would create a more competitive team next year, imo.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Gerald The Duck on October 02, 2016, 06:33:36 PM
Well, there'll be at least one more game at Skydome this season
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 02, 2016, 10:29:22 PM

Well, I hope everyone's ankles are alright after jumping off the bandwagon.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on October 03, 2016, 03:55:48 PM
Stars aligning? Bautista has come alive, couple big wins to end the season maybe we have momentum? I hope the emotional Stroman rides the high of Sanchez's no hitter into the 7th and keeps things rolling! Go Blue Jays!

One game does not make a playoffs, we want more!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on October 04, 2016, 11:35:00 PM
EDDIE WALK OFF HOME RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on October 04, 2016, 11:36:59 PM
Yay.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 04, 2016, 11:39:46 PM

The Rangers series will be bananas.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: barney_rebel on October 04, 2016, 11:39:57 PM
We rule man!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TML fan on October 04, 2016, 11:41:30 PM
I felt that Edwin didn't respect the game.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on October 04, 2016, 11:43:01 PM
https://streamable.com/c3lj

The Y pose would look good on a Jays shirt.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Gerald The Duck on October 04, 2016, 11:43:20 PM
What a way to end it especially after all those blown chances earlier. That ball was absolutely obliterated. Awesome stuff.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Gerald The Duck on October 04, 2016, 11:47:11 PM
The bullpen was absolutely dominant tonight. The O's didn't get a hit after the 6th and only one base runner. I just hope Osuna is okay.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on October 04, 2016, 11:48:22 PM
Also, thank you Buck Shoewalter.  In an elimination playoff game, you went to Ubaldo Jiminez over Zach Britton.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 04, 2016, 11:53:14 PM
O-kaayy Blue Jays!  We win!!!

Bring on the Texas Rangers...and more Bautista bat flips!! :D

Hey, Odor, you gonna punch us??!!   8)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 05, 2016, 12:27:43 AM

Jays fans really need to stop throwing stuff on the field. If they catch the guy who did that he really needs to be banned from the Stadium.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on October 05, 2016, 01:16:32 AM
we got the bleachers, we got em till from spring til fall.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TBLeafer on October 05, 2016, 01:41:22 PM
Remember.

(https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/sports/bluejays/2016/10/05/how-texans-are-welcoming-the-blue-jays-to-bad-blood-series/bautista-hits-odor2.jpg.size.custom.crop.1086x724.jpg)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on October 06, 2016, 03:07:38 PM
This early game crap pisses me off. We get second tier treatment as a Canadian franchise. Are Americans really that disinterested in watching if the Jays are playing? All of Canada watches does that make up some of the difference. The size of our Canadian fan base has to better then most cities fan base.

Why do we always get the shaft for playoff game scheduling?

"We talked about foul balls into the stands... they don't play a lot of baseball in Canada, a lot of people aren't used to catching them"
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TimKerr on October 06, 2016, 03:37:37 PM
Is Texas in Canada too?
 If Baltimore had got through instead of the Jays than they would have had the early game.
Fact is, the Red Sox are the draw and most teams will play second fiddle to them.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TBLeafer on October 06, 2016, 04:42:02 PM
Okay! Let's get those bats going!  Kick off this epic rematch with a bang!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on October 06, 2016, 05:02:16 PM
That's close at 1st, did Pillar make it?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Arn on October 06, 2016, 06:07:28 PM
Good first 4 innings anyway...
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 06, 2016, 07:22:36 PM
This early game crap pisses me off. We get second tier treatment as a Canadian franchise. Are Americans really that disinterested in watching if the Jays are playing? All of Canada watches does that make up some of the difference. The size of our Canadian fan base has to better then most cities fan base.

Canadian ratings are entirely irrelevant to TBS or Fox or whoever pays for US ratings. Sportsnet simulcasts the game and replaces the US commercials with their own so TBS can't sell advertisers on their products reaching that Canadian audience even if they wanted that(A company like AT&T, for instance, doesn't do business in Canada). You might argue that it makes those simulcasting rights more valuable but Sportsnet has to work out their broadcasting deal with TBS without knowing if the Jays will be in the playoffs.

Realistically, the Jays will cut the US ratings by a pretty fair margin and it's not unreasonable for that to be what a US network cares about.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on October 06, 2016, 07:36:45 PM
Masterful performance by Estrada today. Great way to start the series.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 06, 2016, 09:20:45 PM
That's how you take it off the chin Texas.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on October 06, 2016, 10:36:10 PM
This is unreal, Happ and Sanchez up next! Feels like we four Aces... we do have four Aces! If we can continue to hit this could be a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 07, 2016, 08:03:11 AM
The boos rained down on Bautista but Joey Bats silenced the crowd with a three-run homer in the ninth inning with the Jays already leading by a wide margin.

Bautista ties Joe Carter for most home runs in the post season.

Starting pitcher Marco Estrada joins an elite group of Jays pitchers Dave Stieb & David Cone, as only the third Blue Jays starter to go more than eight innings in allowing one run.

According to ESPN, the Jays are the third team in MLB playoff history to win the first game of a best-of-five series on the road in scoring more than nine runs.

Great job, guys!

GO JAYS GO!!!

Story:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-rangers-alds-game-one-1.3794939
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TBLeafer on October 07, 2016, 03:16:37 PM
HOME RUNS FOR EVERYONE!!!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on October 07, 2016, 04:26:19 PM
Maybe it's because this is a daytime series, but it doesn't seem like there is as much interest in the Jays as there was last year, social media seems to be significantly quieter.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on October 07, 2016, 04:33:19 PM
Maybe it's because this is a daytime series, but it doesn't seem like there is as much interest in the Jays as there was last year, social media seems to be significantly quieter.

Last year: huge momentum from wiping the floor with the Yankees to clinch the division and playoff berth.

This year: dropping a 5 game lead on Boston to narrowly squeak into the wild card after a dreadful September swoon.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on October 07, 2016, 04:39:13 PM
Maybe it's because this is a daytime series, but it doesn't seem like there is as much interest in the Jays as there was last year, social media seems to be significantly quieter.

Last year: huge momentum from wiping the floor with the Yankees to clinch the division and playoff berth.

This year: dropping a 5 game lead on Boston to narrowly squeak into the wild card after a dreadful September swoon.

Yeah, but playoffs...

Huge from Osuna.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TBLeafer on October 07, 2016, 04:54:33 PM
Maybe it's because this is a daytime series, but it doesn't seem like there is as much interest in the Jays as there was last year, social media seems to be significantly quieter.

Last year: huge momentum from wiping the floor with the Yankees to clinch the division and playoff berth.

This year: dropping a 5 game lead on Boston to narrowly squeak into the wild card after a dreadful September swoon.

Yeah, but playoffs...

Huge from Osuna.

TWO AND OHHHHHHHHH!

Its best if we put Texas away as quick as possible.  They have a bad Odor.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on October 07, 2016, 05:15:02 PM
Yeah, but playoffs...

Last year had novelty of "the drought is over" storyline. This year was the high expectation year that kind of fell short. The hospitals were overrun with twisted ankles from people hopping off the bandwagon late in the year.

I don't know. Those are just my reasons for not caring that much about this year. My social media friends are still pretty into it. Lots of attendees on weeknights throughout the year. Edwin love during the wild card draw was huge.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 07, 2016, 05:18:11 PM
Maybe it's because this is a daytime series, but it doesn't seem like there is as much interest in the Jays as there was last year, social media seems to be significantly quieter.

I think a lot of that just is the product of last year they broke a 22 year playoff drought(and really, 22 years without playing meaningful September baseball).

Teams who make the playoffs with some frequency don't get crazy worked up over doing it. It was like that with the Leafs too.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on October 07, 2016, 08:10:30 PM
Wow Pillar smoked that pitch like a viking with Thor's hammer!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on October 07, 2016, 09:27:11 PM
Maybe it's because this is a daytime series, but it doesn't seem like there is as much interest in the Jays as there was last year, social media seems to be significantly quieter.

I think it'll pick up. As others have said, that initial rush from having a meaningful September and making the playoffs for the first time in 22 years isn't there this year, and they also weren't the same awe-inspiring offensive juggernaut they were last year. I imagine things will pick up a fair bit on Sunday when the Jays are back in town.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on October 07, 2016, 10:33:02 PM
Maybe it's because this is a daytime series, but it doesn't seem like there is as much interest in the Jays as there was last year, social media seems to be significantly quieter.

Social media may be quieter but TV ratings and attendance have been great this season.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 08, 2016, 12:54:47 AM
Whoa Blue Jays!  They've certainly made a mess of Texas' pitching.  And how! 

Plus, another pitching gem this time from ace J.A. App, with Osuna closing out.

The Jays with a 2 games to 0 lead in this best-of-five ALDS, have a chance to win it all in Game 3 at home.

GO JAYS GO!!

Story:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-defeat-rangers-take-2-0-lp (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-defeat-rangers-take-2-0-lp)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: disco on October 08, 2016, 02:56:35 AM
Back-to-back in Texas during afternoon work hours. Sunday night at the Roger's Center is going to be insane.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on October 09, 2016, 07:59:55 PM
Give Encarnacion whatever he wants for his next contract.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on October 09, 2016, 08:55:54 PM
Give Encarnacion whatever he wants for his next contract.

Boston will
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on October 09, 2016, 10:54:12 PM
JD laces a double, but he's really labouring. Hips don't lie.

Dyson coming in to face Bautista...? Edit: Missed opportunity.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on October 09, 2016, 11:02:36 PM
Hips don't care!

JD takes the plate on a bad DP throw to first!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on October 09, 2016, 11:04:45 PM
Head's up play by Donaldson. That's how championships are won.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 09, 2016, 11:13:36 PM

Something about it ending on an error by Odor, I don't know, it just feels right.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 09, 2016, 11:26:29 PM
How sweep it is!  The Blue Jays sweet the Rangers 3 games to 0 in this best-of-five ALDS.  Thanks to a throwing error by the Rangers in the 10th inning on an attempted double play, which enabled the Jays Donaldson to score from second base all the way to home plate.  Smart play by Donaldson on that one, as the Jays win it 7-6.

The Blue Jays, having reached the ALCS for the second consecutive season, now await the winner of the Cleveland /Boston ALDS, in which the Indians currently lead 2 games to 0.  Game 3 goes Monday in Boston.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-sweep-rangers-1.3798479 (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-sweep-rangers-1.3798479)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 10, 2016, 10:04:27 AM
That throw had a bit of an odour on it
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TBLeafer on October 10, 2016, 10:47:22 AM
That throw had a bit of an odour on it

Odor laid a stinky.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuX_1d8VYAQOfov.jpg)

Remembered.  8)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on October 10, 2016, 04:50:12 PM
If you want to see the walk-off win as called by Jerry, here it is.  Worth the watch:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cVh3XfVFjA[/youtube]
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on October 10, 2016, 09:59:58 PM
We're going to Cleveland!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 10, 2016, 10:02:23 PM

I can't lie, Texas and Boston both getting swept has me pretty happy.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on October 10, 2016, 10:07:42 PM
So, MLB got the sexy Toronto-Cleveland ALCS matchup they were so hoping for!

With the Raptors defeat by the Cavaliers this year, I guess there's sort of a Toronto-Cleveland sports rivalry now...?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on October 10, 2016, 10:21:39 PM
If the Cubs beat the Giants tonight, of the remaining teams, the Jays will have the most recent World Series win. If the Nats also beat the Dodgers, none of the other remaining teams will have won a World Series since well before the Jays entered the league.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on October 11, 2016, 03:28:49 PM
Maybe it's because this is a daytime series, but it doesn't seem like there is as much interest in the Jays as there was last year, social media seems to be significantly quieter.

Social media may be quieter but TV ratings and attendance have been great this season.
Yeah, don't know what your talking about. The Jays fans are out in full force.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on October 12, 2016, 10:58:35 PM
I was at the game Sunday and can vouch that Jays fans (and quite a few bandwagoners) are out in full force. It was crazy loud the first few innings, got quiet for a bit when Texas took the lead, but then ramped back up after the Jays tied it. You could see the players feeding off the crowd and it was bedlam when Donaldson scored. I was screaming and hugging complete strangers out of sheer joy. There was a giant poster of Odor outside after the game where fans were taking brooms to his rat face. Everyone on the streets high-fiving each other....it was great!

LETS GO BLUE JAYS!!!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on November 08, 2016, 07:07:21 PM
https://ca.yahoo.com/sports/news/four-potential-landing-spots-for-yoenis-cespedes-185720116.html

Any chance the Jays would be in on Cespedes to replace Bautista? Looks like the Mets may be kicking Bautista's tires.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-hot-stove-could-the-mets-replace-yoenis-cespedes-with-jose-bautista/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on November 10, 2016, 07:52:30 PM
R.A. Dickey has signed a 1 year, $8 million deal with Atlanta.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: pmrules on November 11, 2016, 04:21:19 PM
Kendrys morales signed by the Jays. 

11M per for 3 years.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Bender on November 11, 2016, 06:36:30 PM
Is he good? Any analysis? I don't know anything about this guy.

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on November 11, 2016, 06:42:33 PM
Is he good? Any analysis? I don't know anything about this guy.

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

Switch hitter with pop. Can't run or field for beans.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on November 11, 2016, 06:42:44 PM
Is he good? Any analysis? I don't know anything about this guy.

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

Morales is definitely a guy the Jays should have been targeting as a cheaper alternative for the power to replace one of Jose or Edwin. It's a positive. Money is alright.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on November 11, 2016, 06:54:50 PM
Morales is a veteran DH (33 years old) who can hit 30 HR and drive in 100 RBI when given the chance to be in the lineup regularly. One of the things I'm sure management found attractive about him is that he is a switch-hitter.

This deal is sending a pretty strong signal that the Jays have moved on from Bautista and Encarnacion. Morales is the replacement for Encarnacion given that he is a DH and if he does take the field it will be at 1B. Lots of media types still in denial about this though saying there is still a chance EE comes back. How? There is literally no place for him now with the multi-year deals handed to Smoak and Morales. I would have loved for EE to return to Toronto, but it's not happening. I think he ends up in the State of Texas when all is said and done, either the Astros or the Rangers.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on November 11, 2016, 07:12:10 PM
Although I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Edwin signs elsewhere, I think he could still be back with the Jays. They have the money. We'll see.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on November 11, 2016, 07:26:23 PM
This deal is sending a pretty strong signal that the Jays have moved on from Bautista and Encarnacion. Morales is the replacement for Encarnacion given that he is a DH and if he does take the field it will be at 1B. Lots of media types still in denial about this though saying there is still a chance EE comes back. How? There is literally no place for him now with the multi-year deals handed to Smoak and Morales. I would have loved for EE to return to Toronto, but it's not happening. I think he ends up in the State of Texas when all is said and done, either the Astros or the Rangers.

Smoak's deal didn't keep him from being a part-time guy last season - and, he didn't exactly perform all that well, either. I can't imagine the team sees him as an everyday player next season. He's not impeding EE coming back in any way.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 20, 2016, 01:55:46 AM
'Bye bye Cecil.  Jays reliever Brett Cecil a Jay no more....signs a 4-yr. contract with the NL's  St.Louis  Cardinals for 30.5M.

However, the deal according to a source, has not been finalized pending a physical.  If all is well, then the Cardinals will have signed  one of the league's top southpaw free agent relievers. 

A gain for St.Louis, a loss for the Jays, who by the way, had previously made Cecil an offer of a 3-yr. contract.

More:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/report-brett-cecil-leaves-blue-jays-agrees-4-year-deal-cardinals/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TML fan on November 20, 2016, 11:34:44 AM
Yikes.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on December 05, 2016, 11:03:41 AM
Jays sign INF/OF Steve Pearce to a 2 year $12.5 million deal. Most likely platoon with Smoak at 1B and spell Upton from time to time in LF.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on December 06, 2016, 12:33:51 PM
Joaquin Benoit signed a 1 year, $7.5 Million deal with the Phillies.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on December 07, 2016, 07:05:36 PM
Jays sign LHP Brett Oberholtzer to a minor league deal with an invite to spring training.

Looks similar to those scrap heap waiver claims that AA used to pull, but hey it won't take much to supplant Aaron Loup as the top lefty in the pen these days! This management team has said they aren't going to blow the budget on relievers (especially with bigger needs) and can't say I blame them. Did a great job last season with Biagini, Grilli and Benoit so will give them the benefit of the doubt. Atkins has said he wants to acquire a LH reliever with MLB experience so think there will still be another one added to the roster.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 07, 2016, 07:38:59 PM
The thing with bullpen arms is that you don't have to spend a ton to get good performances. You really just need to do a good job of identifying guys that just need a tweak in their delivery/mindset/usage. They can usually be picked up relatively cheap. They do tend to have short shelf lives - but, that's true of a significant portion of middle relief types.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on December 20, 2016, 04:46:31 PM
Bautista to Toronto rumors picking up. 2 years 15 per? I would take that. I would still prefer Encarnacion as a full time 1st baseman to JB as a RF, but I suppose that's a pipe dream.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on December 20, 2016, 05:21:45 PM
My problem is Jose hasn't learned to play 1B and you can't DH him.  He's a bad defender in the outfield so he's really limiting his value.  15M isn't horrible for him but it isn't like the Jays are getting a deal with him either.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on December 20, 2016, 05:37:38 PM
Jose 'no hometown discount' Bautista

"I don't believe in hometown discounts. I've given this organization a 5-year hometown discount already."
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on December 20, 2016, 06:41:03 PM
A few players who had minor roles with the Jays in 2016 have signed minor league deals elsewhere - Junior Lake with the Red Sox, Matt Dominguez with the Red Sox and Chris Colabello with the Indians
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 20, 2016, 06:53:36 PM
My problem is Jose hasn't learned to play 1B and you can't DH him.  He's a bad defender in the outfield so he's really limiting his value.  15M isn't horrible for him but it isn't like the Jays are getting a deal with him either.

I don't know if he's played enough 1B to really say one way or the other how he'd do there on a semi-regular basis. I certainly don't think Pearce or Smoak are easily preferable options to form a DH/1B platoon with Morales though.

That said, it's hard to see a ton of upside here either.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on December 21, 2016, 07:02:06 AM
My problem is Jose hasn't learned to play 1B and you can't DH him.  He's a bad defender in the outfield so he's really limiting his value.  15M isn't horrible for him but it isn't like the Jays are getting a deal with him either.

I don't know if he's played enough 1B to really say one way or the other how he'd do there on a semi-regular basis. I certainly don't think Pearce or Smoak are easily preferable options to form a DH/1B platoon with Morales though.

That said, it's hard to see a ton of upside here either.

I guess you could stick both Pearce and Bautista in LF whenever you need to and have them split 1B duties, leaving Morales as the primary DH. Bautista's defence in left couldn't be any worse than Saunders' last year, provided Toronto finds a capable right fielder (Granderson??) and uses Upton as the 4th OF.

15 million per for Bautista on a short term deal really doesn't have much downside either.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 21, 2016, 09:10:48 AM
15 million per for Bautista on a short term deal really doesn't have much downside either.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by downside. I agree that it's not a deal that would bury the Jays or anything but I'd have a number of concerns.

1. I wouldn't be too sure about Bautista's defense vs. Saunders'. Bautista was graded at a -1.4 by BR last year and Saunders was a -1.7. Admittedly that's the difference between Saunders in Left and Bautista in right where the baseline figures to be a little higher but add on another year of age to Bautista and it might be pretty close.

2. To that end you have to wonder how much Bautista's bat can come back. If it can then, sure, he's valuable in Left despite the defense. If not, you could very well have a situation where he's effectively the same as Saunders last year.

3. I'd wonder the extent to which Bautista could then handle, ego-wise, being in a reduced role.

4. Likewise, you have to at least wonder about the wisdom of continuing to just stack the lineup with righthanded power bats. I think the last two LCS' showed us how that can backfire.

5. To that end, you have to wonder if that 15 million couldn't be more effectively spent elsewhere given the Jays' limited budget.

This is where I'm a little puzzled, I suppose, by the Morales deal. I get that he's a switch hitter but it seems like if Bautista was available and could slide into the DH role that might be the higher upside move. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on December 21, 2016, 09:21:43 AM
I agree on all points really. Granted it's hindsight now but it looks like they misread the market and rushed to sign Morales (and gave him 3 years to boot).

I was hoping they'd be in on Joyce, who would have been a perfect platoon with Upton, and make a move for someone like Granderson to patrol right. Then you could have had one of EE or Jose DH fulltime.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on December 22, 2016, 08:57:40 PM
Edwin 3 years at 20 per to Cleveland.

Club has an option for a 4th year at the same price.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 22, 2016, 09:00:29 PM

Jeez, I'd rather have that than Morales + Pearce.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on December 22, 2016, 09:09:09 PM

Jeez, I'd rather have that than Morales + Pearce.

Don't forget those semi-regular at bats for Smoak.

Morales + Smoak + Pearce = 20.375M

57HR 162RBI for the trio vs. 42HR 127 RBI for Eddie
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 22, 2016, 09:20:52 PM
Edwin 3 years at 20 per to Cleveland.

Club has an option for a 4th year at the same price.

Very similar to what the Jays initially offered him. If they hadn't been so quick to move on, they probably could have signed him to this deal.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on December 23, 2016, 12:37:28 AM
Most of the blame should be pointed squarely at Paul Kinzer as far as Edwin no longer being a Jay. He cost his client money and the chance to stay in the city he wanted to keep playing in.

I understand what people are saying about Shapiro and Atkins though, despite the Jays offering Edwin the best deal as it turned out. I certainly never got the impression they would move off the 4 years, $80 million. It was more a take it or leave it offer and don't believe they particularly cared if Edwin stayed or not. I believe that holds true for Jose as well.

Thank you Edwin for all you have done in a Jays uniform! One of the all-time greats in team history and that walk-off HR against the O's in the Wild Card game ranks up there as one of the best Jays moments. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 23, 2016, 05:21:19 AM
Most of the blame should be pointed squarely at Paul Kinzer as far as Edwin no longer being a Jay. He cost his client money and the chance to stay in the city he wanted to keep playing in.

I understand what people are saying about Shapiro and Atkins though, despite the Jays offering Edwin the best deal as it turned out. I certainly never got the impression they would move off the 4 years, $80 million. It was more a take it or leave it offer and don't believe they particularly cared if Edwin stayed or not. I believe that holds true for Jose as well.

Thank you Edwin for all you have done in a Jays uniform! One of the all-time greats in team history and that walk-off HR against the O's in the Wild Card game ranks up there as one of the best Jays moments.


I say, "Bravo, Edwin!"  Sad to see him leave, but he'll remain a favourite Blue Jay to baseball aficionados in this city for a long time to come.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on December 23, 2016, 07:33:24 AM
Yea that's a very nice deal for EE.

Morales + Pearce + low-mid 30's draft pick + 20million left over, though, isn't that bad a consolation prize.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 23, 2016, 09:30:16 AM
Yea that's a very nice deal for EE.

Morales + Pearce + low-mid 30's draft pick + 20million left over, though, isn't that bad a consolation prize.

Isn't it more like 5 million left over? Morales and Pearce are making 15 or so combined.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: RedLeaf on December 23, 2016, 09:30:46 AM
I don't follow the Jays enough to get a real feel for what sort of an impact this off season will have on the fortunes of this club moving forward. Anyone want to chime in with what the big picture looks like now? Has all hope diminished or will they still be a good team next season?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Peter D. on December 23, 2016, 09:39:29 AM
I understand what people are saying about Shapiro and Atkins though, despite the Jays offering Edwin the best deal as it turned out. I certainly never got the impression they would move off the 4 years, $80 million. It was more a take it or leave it offer and don't believe they particularly cared if Edwin stayed or not. I believe that holds true for Jose as well.

This is where it makes no sense to me.  Edwin just signed for less than what the Jays offered.  If they were to move off 4/80, a quarter less in both terms and dollars would, I don't know, would have actually worked in their favour.  :o
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 23, 2016, 09:54:16 AM
Most of the blame should be pointed squarely at Paul Kinzer as far as Edwin no longer being a Jay. He cost his client money and the chance to stay in the city he wanted to keep playing in.

How do you figure? Edwin is an adult. He's fully capable of saying "I want to take this deal" when the Jays offered it. If Kinzer then tells Edwin that he thinks he can get more in free agency then that decision is still Edwin's to make.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on December 23, 2016, 10:41:28 AM
Yea that's a very nice deal for EE.

Morales + Pearce + low-mid 30's draft pick + 20million left over, though, isn't that bad a consolation prize.

Isn't it more like 5 million left over? Morales and Pearce are making 15 or so combined.

I just calculated the numbers in a lazier, more favourably to my point way: 33 million for Morales, 12 for Pearce compared to (minimum) of 65 for Edwin.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 23, 2016, 11:42:48 AM
I just calculated the numbers in a lazier, more favourably to my point way: 33 million for Morales, 12 for Pearce compared to (minimum) of 65 for Edwin.

No, it's a fair point. I made the same calculation re: Happ vs. Price last year.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Darryl on December 23, 2016, 03:20:57 PM
I'll miss Edwin but Morales can replace a good deal of his production. The hole I am worried about are in the corner outfield spots. Those need to be addressed.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on December 23, 2016, 05:22:44 PM
I'll miss Edwin but Morales can replace a good deal of his production. The hole I am worried about are in the corner outfield spots. Those need to be addressed.

The bullpen needs some work too.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on December 24, 2016, 06:33:46 AM
Does the tax rate have anything to do with EE's decision to leave?

http://www.tsn.ca/agent-encarnacion-turned-down-more-money-to-sign-with-indians-1.637760 (http://www.tsn.ca/agent-encarnacion-turned-down-more-money-to-sign-with-indians-1.637760)
Kinzer said Encarnacion may wind up bringing home more money in three seasons with Cleveland than he would have in four years with the Blue Jays.
ďItís close,Ē he said. ďOur guys ran the numbers last night. They were really close.Ē

Pro athletes in Toronto face paying a combined tax rate of 53.53 per cent based on the total number of days they spend in Canada, said Robert Raiola, an accountant in New York who works for pro athletes and teams.
In Cleveland, Raiola said the combined top rate is about 47 per cent. (The federal government takes 39.6 per cent of annual income, while Ohio takes 5 per cent and Cleveland has a 2 per cent tax, he said.)

ďThose numbers are changing soon under Trump,Ē Raiola said. ďHe has talked about lowering the top federal rate to 33 per cent. That gap between Canada and the U.S. is only going to widen. I donít know how Canadian teams are going to be able to compete for free agents without wildly overpaying.Ē
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 14, 2017, 06:40:58 PM
Update on team re-signings:

Darwin Barney  1 yr. @ $2.88M
Ezequiel Carrera 1 yr. @ $1.16
Aaron Loup 1 yr. @ $1.1M


Of the Edwin situarion:
Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports argues that the Blue Jays may have misread the market for power bats this winter. In the case of Toronto, he suggests, the team ought to have been more patient with Edwin Encarnacion. By moving quickly to give a three-year deal to Kendrys Morales after Encarnacion declined to take the teamís early-offseason offer, the Jays may have spent much more than necessary to land a player of Moralesís quality while also tying their hands on Encarnacion, who ended up signing for one year and $20MM less than Toronto had reportedly offered.

As for Bautista:
Speculation about Jose Bautista ultimately signing a one-year deal is growing throughout the industry, writes Sportsnetís Ben Nicholson-Smith. The Blue Jays were recently said to be in active talks with Bautista, and Nicholson-Smith notes that he spoke with execs from two other clubs that considered Bautista the exact type of player that could end up as a significant bargain if heís had on a one-year pact. Nicholson-Smith adds that thereís still a belief in the industry that Toronto would be perfectly happy to let Bautista depart, sign elsewhere, and collect a compensatory draft pick. However, the Jays do still need two corner outfielders, and Bautista is a known commodity among the fans, in the clubhouse and on the field for Toronto.

All here:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/toronto-blue-jays
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on January 16, 2017, 06:37:57 PM
According to reports, Michael Saunders has signed a 1 year, $9 million deal with the Phillies with an option for a 2nd year worth $11 million, that can escalate to $14 million if he reaches certain performance goals.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on January 23, 2017, 11:46:06 PM
Josh Thole has signed a minor league deal with the D-Backs. I wouldn't think there are very many Jays fans sad to see him go, although it was pretty well known that when Dickey wasn't coming back that Thole wouldn't be either. Rumour has it the Jays are looking at Salty to possibly fill the backup catcher role.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on January 31, 2017, 08:05:23 PM
Looks like the Jays found a replacement for Cecil (and finally signed a pitcher to a major league deal this off-season).

Lefty reliever J.P. Howell has reportedly signed a 1 year deal with the Jays.



Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 16, 2017, 03:24:14 PM

Jays have signed Mat Latos to a minor league deal. He was a real pitcher as recently as 2014.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on February 17, 2017, 01:13:08 PM
I guess the Gavin Floyd era is over.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on March 07, 2017, 01:04:08 PM
Getting hyped with these two articles:
https://theathletic.com/42192/2017/03/06/into-the-woods-how-lourdes-gurriel-jr-escaped-on-his-zig-zag-journey-from-cuba-to-the-blue-jays/

http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/03/07/the-art-of-pitch-calling-a-masters-in-communication/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on March 08, 2017, 06:52:13 AM
More hype, where Donaldson articulates a lot of my issues with the lineup the past two seasons.

Blue Jays' Josh Donaldson on hitting in the No. 2 spot, his plate approach and avoiding double plays
https://theathletic.com/42333/2017/03/07/blue-jays-josh-donaldson-on-hitting-in-the-no-2-spot-his-plate-approach-and-avoiding-double-plays/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 16, 2017, 03:57:06 AM
The Blue Jays sign pitcher Aaron Sanchez to league minimum @$535,000.  Sanchez will be eligible for arbitration at end of 2017 and eligible for Free Agency at end of 2020.

Sanchez's agent Scott Boras blasts Jays in handling of contract:

Under a policy in place for the past 10 years, the Blue Jays renew contracts at the major-league minimum if players donít accept the raises offered to them.

"They offered him a very small raise above the minimum, which is not commensurate to his performance peers," Boras said in an interview with Sportsnet. "Some teams have very low payment standards but they say if you renew we understand, but you still keep the money weíre giving you. Toronto is so rigid, they not only have a very antiquated or substandard policy compared to the other teams for extraordinary performance, but if you donít accept what that low standard is, they then have the poison pill of saying, you get paid the minimum. Itís the harshest treatment in baseball that any club could provide for a player. Thatís why few teams have such a policy."

Full story:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/scott-boras-rips-blue-jays-handling-sanchez-salary/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/scott-boras-rips-blue-jays-handling-sanchez-salary/)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on March 16, 2017, 07:25:17 AM
The Blue Jays sign pitcher Aaron Sanchez to league minimum @$535,000.  Sanchez will be eligible for arbitration at end of 2017 and eligible for Free Agency at end of 2020.

Sanchez's agent Scott Boras blasts Jays in handling of contract:

Under a policy in place for the past 10 years, the Blue Jays renew contracts at the major-league minimum if players donít accept the raises offered to them.

"They offered him a very small raise above the minimum, which is not commensurate to his performance peers," Boras said in an interview with Sportsnet. "Some teams have very low payment standards but they say if you renew we understand, but you still keep the money weíre giving you. Toronto is so rigid, they not only have a very antiquated or substandard policy compared to the other teams for extraordinary performance, but if you donít accept what that low standard is, they then have the poison pill of saying, you get paid the minimum. Itís the harshest treatment in baseball that any club could provide for a player. Thatís why few teams have such a policy."

Full story:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/scott-boras-rips-blue-jays-handling-sanchez-salary/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/scott-boras-rips-blue-jays-handling-sanchez-salary/)

Scott Boras is bad for baseball.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on March 17, 2017, 09:41:38 AM

I can't speak to Boras' overall influence on Baseball, although it seems as though whoever the biggest agent has been has always been deemed a danger to the game as long as the game has had agents, but I think there's a fair point to be made that the policy here is a bad one that seems to risk antagonizing players over relatively small sums of money.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on March 22, 2017, 11:39:42 PM
So Marcus Stroman is pitching a pretty good game right now vs. Puerto Rico...
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 23, 2017, 02:58:27 AM
So Marcus Stroman is pitching a pretty good game right now vs. Puerto Rico..
.
-

He finished with a one-hitter and a walk through to seven innings.  He simply impressed.


http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=4372.msg291755#msg291755
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on March 23, 2017, 03:32:30 PM
http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/03/23/if-you-didnt-know-now-you-know/

Really looking forward to the Stro-Show 2017.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on March 28, 2017, 08:31:35 PM
I guess the Gavin Floyd era is over.

Jays released him today so yeah it's over.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on March 29, 2017, 12:20:38 PM
http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/03/29/how-kevin-pillar-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-plate-discipline/

At last...

Quote
In a total of 36 plate appearances tracked, Pillar has swung at just 16.7 percent of pitches he has seen outside the zone, or over 13 percentage points below league average and over 22 percentage points below his career average. Thatís a change of over four standard deviations! On pitches in the zone, Pillar has swung at 55.2 percent of them, about 10 points below the league average and eight percentage points below his career average. I spoke to him about the change before the Blue Jays headed to Clearwater on Tuesday afternoon for their tilt with the Phillies, and he said that ď[heís] been doing the same thing for a couple of years, and [hasnít] gotten results, so [he] needed to make a change.Ē

This was all Pillarís doing, as well. He did some ďresearch and self-evaluation through the internetĒ, which showed him that he ďmade a lot of soft contact, and also a lot of hard contact.Ē He interpreted this data in the following way.

ďWhen I stayed in the zone and I got my pitch, I hit it well, and if I expanded the zone, I didnít make hard contact. That led me to a lot of soft outs.Ē
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on April 01, 2017, 05:26:49 PM
Jays signed OF/INF Chris Coghlan to a minor league deal and will send him to AAA Buffalo to start the season.

Not a bad depth signing, plays mostly corner outfield, but can fill in at several infield positions if need be.

Should be interesting to see who the final cuts are at tomorrow's roster deadline. I could see the Jays dealing Goins rather than losing him for nothing on waivers if there is no spot for him on the team.
Upton Jr. is the other guy being mentioned on the bubble to make the team and there are a lot of rumblings that he won't be a part of the team and will likely be dealt.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Darryl on April 02, 2017, 06:17:39 PM
There goes Upton.
I Osuna in the DL as well to start the season. We are going to see what this new look pen is capable of very early.

Sent from my F3113 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: pmrules on April 03, 2017, 11:43:25 AM
Your 25 Man Opening Day Roster

Starters:  Estrada, Happ, Stroman, Liriano, Sanchez
Relief:  Biaggini, Loup, Howell, Tepera, Grilli, Smith, Leone
DL:  Osuna

Starting Lineup:
1.  Travis (2B)
2.  Donaldson (3B)
3.  Bautista (RF)
4.  Morales (DH)
5.  Tulowitzki (SS)
6.  Martin (C)
7.  Pearce (1B)
8.  Pillar (CF)
9.  Carrera (LF)

Extras:  Smoak, Barney, Goins, Saltalamacchia

I think that's everyone - 12 P and 13 Position players with 1 on the DL.  No Smoak at 1B for today.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TimKerr on April 03, 2017, 01:11:11 PM
Pearce and Carrera both in the starting lineup scares me a little. And replacing Pearce with Smoak doesn't make me feel any better.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on April 03, 2017, 01:23:57 PM
Pearce and Carrera both in the starting lineup scares me a little. And replacing Pearce with Smoak doesn't make me feel any better.

Pearce generally gets on base at a reasonable rate, so I'm not super concerned about him. Carrera as an every day player and the team not really having a 4th outfielder on the roster, on the other hand . . .
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: pmrules on April 03, 2017, 02:50:48 PM
Pearce and Carrera both in the starting lineup scares me a little. And replacing Pearce with Smoak doesn't make me feel any better.

Pearce generally gets on base at a reasonable rate, so I'm not super concerned about him. Carrera as an every day player and the team not really having a 4th outfielder on the roster, on the other hand . . .

Pompey is on the DL as well...don't know if he would have made the team anyways, so I didn't include. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on April 11, 2017, 09:26:30 PM
Jays claimed INF Ty Kelly off waivers from the N.Y. Mets.

More AAA depth or are the Jays looking to move one of their middle infielders to help plug other roster needs? I still think Goins could be trade bait in the eyes of the current management group.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on April 11, 2017, 10:39:35 PM
I don't think Goins has any trade value.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on April 11, 2017, 11:52:00 PM
I don't think Goins has any trade value.

He has some value, just not quite enough for the Jays liking. They could be trying to raise it some, which is why you saw Goins get the start at third tonight rather than Barney.
Lots of rumblings about Goins being dealt in the last couple weeks prior to Upton getting released when the Jays were trying to finalize the roster.
This report from Baseball Prospectus clears that situation up:

The Blue Jays were listening to trade offers on both Upton and Goins recently, trying to gauge the market for the two players they needed to choose from for the last roster spot. While the market for Upton was non-existent, the market for Goins was actually pretty decent, with multiple teams making offers for the 29-year-old utility man. One American League team was even intent on trading for Goins and giving him a short term starting role before settling him into their utility role once their club returned to health. However, despite multiple names being tossed around, the two clubs were not able to come to agreement that the Blue Jays liked. So, the Blue Jays decided to release Melvin Upton, and hold on to Goins, knowing that a lot of teams wonít even want to pick up Upton for the remainder of his 2017 contract, and there is a good chance that he re-signs with the club and heads to the minors. For Goins on the other hand, the interest in him is still viable, and even though he secured his spot on the Blue Jays opening day roster, he may still be traded.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on April 16, 2017, 04:49:29 PM
This is going to be a long awful season
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on April 16, 2017, 10:11:14 PM
This is going to be a long awful season

It is starting to remind me of the 2014 Jays where I went with the "Don't get fooled again" mantra and was generally jaded and disillusioned that entire season. The Jays went out and made the Dickey and Buehrle trades, got the fan base super excited and then fell on their faces the 2013 season. Then all they do in the 2013 off-season is sign Dioner Navarro and they are supposed to be a better team in 2014? Yeah I wasn't buying that b.s. one bit!

I can decide for myself whether the team is any good from one season to the next, don't need the Mike Wilners of the world sugar-coating everything and smugly telling me I'm a bad Jays fan for not blindly being in love with everything they do. Real Jays fans aren't afraid to just tell it like it is, good, bad, or ugly.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on April 24, 2017, 12:45:38 PM
Apparently something interesting happened at yesterday's game?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGItj76LWzk[/youtube]
Video is poorly edited, but eventually it shows what happened.

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/04/24/marcus-stroman-was-called-for-an-illegal-quick-pitch-for-some-reason/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on April 25, 2017, 06:33:32 PM
Russell Martin starting at 3B tonight, talk about desperation!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Darryl on April 25, 2017, 09:14:38 PM
Russell Martin starting at 3B tonight, talk about desperation!
To be fair he doesn't have to do much to be better than Coughlan.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on April 25, 2017, 11:24:47 PM
Russell Martin starting at 3B tonight, talk about desperation!
To be fair he doesn't have to do much to be better than Coughlan.

This might be the greatest thing I have ever seen in a baseball game
https://imgur.com/WAp3Iqd
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on April 26, 2017, 12:25:53 AM
Coghlan diving over Molina was a sick play! Never seen that before in a MLB game, looks like something out of a movie.

That pinch-hit double by Stroman was pretty special too, first pinch-hit by an AL pitcher since 1972! Then to score the winning run was icing on the cake, Marcus didn't want to take that batting helmet off.

Full credit to Russ playing 3B as well, did a good job over there tonight.

Not happy about the 3 blown leads by 3 of our better pitchers, but won't dwell on that tonight as the Jays got the win and it was a fun game to watch as a fan.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Darryl on April 26, 2017, 03:16:17 PM
Russell Martin starting at 3B tonight, talk about desperation!
To be fair he doesn't have to do much to be better than Coughlan.

This might be the greatest thing I have ever seen in a baseball game
https://imgur.com/WAp3Iqd

Figures he would do something spectacular after I call him out.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on April 27, 2017, 03:45:37 PM
What's ailing Bautista?  Not in the health sense, but in the overall performance so far this year.  Jose just can't seem to get it right.  Analytics attempts to solve the mystery:


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/jonah-keri-applied-analytics-whats-behind-bautistas-struggles/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/jonah-keri-applied-analytics-whats-behind-bautistas-struggles/)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on April 27, 2017, 08:26:54 PM
Another one I wonder about is Osuna. Are the neck and back problems really better now? I saw some pundits project him to lead the league in saves this year. Currently he has 1 save and 3 blown saves, that is hot garbage coming from a guy who was lights out the last 2 seasons.

As for Bautista no question he is stinking it up with the bat and his range in the outfield looks to have decreased. On the other hand his outfield arm actually looks better to me than last year, but I attribute that to him injuring it against Baltimore last April on the Delmon Young angry throw. Stupid play that affected his arm the rest of the year in my opinion.
The way his contract is structured I can't see him being in Toronto past this year and the way things are going it wouldn't shock me to see him dealt at the trade deadline along with Estrada and/or Liriano.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on April 27, 2017, 08:36:51 PM
Did Osuna expect a bigger role this season or was he cemented as the closer?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on April 27, 2017, 08:55:38 PM
Did Osuna expect a bigger role this season or was he cemented as the closer?

I believe he was cemented as the closer after the numbers he put up the last 2 seasons. He really hasn't had any competition for the closer role since Miguel Castro was traded in the Tulo deal. Never got the sense from anyone that he would be put in a position like Sanchez was to transition from the pen to the rotation.
Who knows what the future holds in terms of openings in the rotation though with Estrada and Liriano in the last year of their deals.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on April 28, 2017, 06:35:41 PM
Jarrod Saltalamacchia has been DFA'd after a terrible showing both at the plate and behind it. Salty made Josh Thole look like an All-Star by comparison.
Luke Maile has been called up and will be the Jays new back-up catcher.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on April 28, 2017, 11:05:25 PM
Did Osuna expect a bigger role this season or was he cemented as the closer?

I believe he was cemented as the closer after the numbers he put up the last 2 seasons. He really hasn't had any competition for the closer role since Miguel Castro was traded in the Tulo deal. Never got the sense from anyone that he would be put in a position like Sanchez was to transition from the pen to the rotation.
Who knows what the future holds in terms of openings in the rotation though with Estrada and Liriano in the last year of their deals.

Osuna prefers being a relief pitcher.

Quote
"You're right," he replies, "it's because they want me as a starter. But if I would have the choice, I would stay in the bullpen, especially next year when we won't have probably [Drew] Storen or [Brett] Cecil, so I probably have the chance to be the closer. I would take the closer over starter."
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on April 29, 2017, 06:24:41 PM
Thanks for the clarification lads.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Darryl on May 04, 2017, 03:47:22 PM
Here's hoping Stroman's armpit tightness is nothing significant.  The rotation is scary enough already.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on May 04, 2017, 09:50:30 PM
Here's hoping Stroman's armpit tightness is nothing significant.  The rotation is scary enough already.

Yeah Sanchez, Happ and now Stroman makes for a real mess in the rotation. To make it even worse the 2 healthy starters Estrada and Liriano are free agents after this year and therefore likely pieces to move by the deadline. It sounds like Latos will get another start even though he was awful last time out. T.J. House looks pretty good down in Buffalo, would like to see him up with the Jays.

Jays also claimed reliever Neil Ramirez off waivers from San Fransisco. His numbers aren't that great this year, but looks like he had some decent numbers with the Cubs in the past.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on May 04, 2017, 10:01:37 PM
Jays also claimed reliever Neil Ramirez off waivers from San Fransisco. His numbers aren't that great this year, but looks like he had some decent numbers with the Cubs in the past.

His traditional numbers don't look good, but some of the deeper looks point to him likely turning things around. His BABIP in particular is absurdly high (.500!) and will not stay that way. He may not end up being good, but he'll be better than he has been so far in 2017.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on May 07, 2017, 11:25:56 PM
If the jays dfa'd Bautista I absolutely wouldn't care. He reminds me of when Bell just couldn't hit anything anymore and just like that, it was over.

I know it won't happen... but still.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on May 09, 2017, 12:34:32 AM
The way Bautista is playing these days I can't see him being here after the trade deadline. This guy was the league leader in HR and now he is getting out-homered by the likes of Ryan Goins.  :-[
His contract is essentially a 1 year deal with a couple option years, but there is no way management can justify keeping Jose the way he is playing.
Estrada will be the main trade chip at the deadline, with Liriano and Bautista as secondary pieces. If this Biagini in the rotation thing becomes more than just an injury relief situation, he could slot into the rotation after the trade deadline.

Injury bug continues to bite the Jays, now Russ Martin on the 10 day DL and the catching platoon is Luke Maile and Mike Ohlman. Shocked the scorekeeper gave Maile his 1st Jays hit tonight, was a catchable ball that the Cleveland outfielder totally lost in the lights and went off the heal of his glove....should have been scored an error.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on May 09, 2017, 11:12:57 PM
Another day, another injury...this time Morales who left the game tonight with a hamstring injury, will have an MRI tomorrow.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on May 19, 2017, 09:23:01 AM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-starter-marcus-stroman-hits-first-career-home-run/

6-pitch repertoire, homerun hitter (to oppo on an 0-2 no less)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on May 19, 2017, 09:33:18 AM
Another day, another injury...this time Morales who left the game tonight with a hamstring injury, will have an MRI tomorrow.

It's an older team but maybe the training staff needs to be looked at.  An awful lot of hamstring injuries early in the year. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Peter D. on May 19, 2017, 10:34:33 AM
It's an older team but maybe the training staff needs to be looked at.  An awful lot of hamstring injuries early in the year.

This comes after Shapiro implemented a sports science program for the organization.  Don't know if that means anything or it is simply pure coincidence. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on May 19, 2017, 10:52:43 AM
This comes after Shapiro implemented a sports science program for the organization.  Don't know if that means anything or it is simply pure coincidence.

Likely coincidence, I imagine. Older team, not great home playing surface, etc. Possibly some bad off-season training habits that are coming back to bite them now.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on May 19, 2017, 11:26:01 AM
Didn't we have every arm blow up a couple of years ago?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Darryl on May 21, 2017, 07:20:30 PM
I'd also factor in the change of the DL from 15 days to 10 days.  Much easier decision to place a guy on the DL for 5 less days when they have an injury.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on June 13, 2017, 04:03:06 PM
So, what do we think about the Jays' first round picks?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 13, 2017, 04:12:22 PM
So, what do we think about the Jays' first round picks?

I'll give you a really solid opinion in about 4 years.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on June 13, 2017, 04:21:56 PM
So, what do we think about the Jays' first round picks?

I'll give you a really solid opinion in about 4 years.

Give me 6.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on June 13, 2017, 04:49:06 PM
So, what do we think about the Jays' first round picks?

Shortstop who likely ends up at 2B, and a starting pitcher who likely ends up in the bullpen? I mean, they didn't go off the board or anything, so, considering what was likely available, they probably did okay.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on June 13, 2017, 05:05:56 PM
Jays at the MLB draft:


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-go-safe-getting-risky-first-draft-sanders/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-go-safe-getting-risky-first-draft-sanders/)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on June 13, 2017, 05:15:15 PM

I'm only going by what the guys at the draft said but getting a power arm who could be in the bullpen soon seems like a good idea.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on June 13, 2017, 05:33:33 PM
Travis just can't seem to stay healthy.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on June 14, 2017, 05:49:36 PM
Kacy Clemens drafted by the Jays:

Quote
Baseball America   ✔@BaseballAmerica

The #BlueJays take Kacy Clemens, the son of Roger Clemens. He was one of the best hitters for Texas this season:http://www.baseballamerica.com/draft-preview/?sort=rank&dir=desc Ö[/ quote]

5:19 PM - 13 Jun 2017
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on June 14, 2017, 07:55:40 PM
Travis just can't seem to stay healthy.

Ezequiel Carrera hurt now too and on the 10 day dl.
Jays just can't seem to get any relief on the injury front this year. Just when they get a player or two back from injury another one or two go on the dl. It's mid-June and they still haven't been able to field a full healthy roster this season.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on June 17, 2017, 10:10:56 AM
Trade Osuna?  It's doable, plausible, even possible, but really...would you??

Robeto Osuna has been one of the best and biggest breakout stories in baseball. Gauge him by strikeouts, walks, home runs, groundball rate, hard-hit rate, and many other metrics, and heís having the best season of his three-year major league career, and also one of the best for any reliever in the game.

Heís only 22 years old, making the league minimum, and canít test free agency until after the 2020 season. By many different measures, heís a blue-chip asset for any team to have.

And thatís exactly why the Blue Jays should trade him as soon as possible...

The "why" explained here:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/osunas-dominance-present-blue-jays-tempting-options/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/osunas-dominance-present-blue-jays-tempting-options/)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on June 19, 2017, 05:46:01 PM
Another day, another injury!
Joe Smith to the 10 DL with shoulder inflammation, Leonel Campos has been called up to take his spot. Smith has been one of the better arms in the Jays pen this season, so not good news. Tepera will slide into the set-up role while Smith is out.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on June 23, 2017, 07:24:09 AM
In case it was missed...In Wednesday's game (June 21) a 7-5 win over the Texas Rangers...

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on June 23, 2017, 08:05:22 AM
To buy or sell, that is the question...posed to Jays' President Mark Shapiro:

Quote
With six weeks to go before the trade deadline, I asked Mark Shapiro about the Blue Jays' position. Here's what he had to say about it:

"Weíre in a position where we have a lot of talent. The team will make the decision for us. Wish it would be clearer, but our only mindset right now is that we look at ourselves in the thick of things.

Weíre hoping we separate ourselves because we have the talent to do it. Thatíll make it certainly easier to make a decision. Weíre looking for ways to get better.

Hasnít been one thing consistently thatís been an issue. At times our defense hasnít been good, starting pitching has been by and large pretty good, but weíve had hiccups there, And offense hasnít bee on track the way we wanted."
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on June 27, 2017, 03:56:50 PM
So Grilli's out...
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on June 27, 2017, 11:27:23 PM
So Grilli's out...

Yeah just didn't have the results like he did last season so it was only a matter of time.
Might be the end of the line at age 40, was currently the oldest player in the A.L.
I did admire his passion though, always got jacked up after a big strikeout and everyone else fed off of it.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on June 28, 2017, 03:42:06 PM
Saunder's signs a minor league deal with the Jays. All Star to the minors in a hurry. Let's hope Toronto is the right fit for him and her returns to All Star form.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on June 30, 2017, 12:32:11 AM
Ex-Blue Jay Munenori Kawasaki (remember him?) salutes Canada, Toronto, and the Blue Jays and a Fukuoka Canada Day party...

In an awesome Canada-themed video interview on Fukuoka Now earlier this week, Kawasaki reminisced about his time in Toronto and sent a heartfelt message to Blue Jays fans:

ďHi. How are you? I miss Toronto ó my favourite place. I donít forget Toronto,Ē he said, hands to his heart.

ďDonít forget. See you soon, OK? Take care ó your body, your mental [health], your [happiness],Ē he said, ďI hope you enjoy your life.Ē

He also misses his former Blue Jays teammates.

ďRyan Goins, Kevin Pillar, Jose Bautista, Donaldson, Tulo, all the guys I miss,Ē he said, before breaking into the Jose! chant.

ďKevin Pillar, youíre the best, youíre Superman,Ē he added. ďIím a good player, however, youíre the best.Ē


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/ex-blue-jay-munenori-kawasaki-special-canada-day-message/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/ex-blue-jay-munenori-kawasaki-special-canada-day-message/)

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on June 30, 2017, 12:55:55 AM
5 runs over 3 games against the terrible Orioles starting pitching.  Useless team.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on June 30, 2017, 05:19:30 AM
5 runs over 3 games against the terrible Orioles starting pitching.  Useless team.


Perhaps this year's Blue Jays motto should be...'We are the cure for the opposing team's ills'...
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on June 30, 2017, 05:38:01 AM
What is ailing the Blue Jays besides all these trips on the DL?  This article attempts to explain.   Buyers or sellers?   Dismantle "the oldest least sustainable roster" and rebuild the farm system?   What should they do?...

Until we know how this turns out, the Blue Jays are Schrodinger's cat Ė simultaneously dead and alive.

Someone is going to have to decide which it is before they open the box in September. That someone will be Blue Jays president Mark Shapiro. Is he a deadline seller or a buyer?

This is the rare instance in which doing nothing is not a viable option. If Shapiro does nothing, he's effectively done something Ė committed himself to one of the oldest, least sustainable rosters in baseball when he could have infused the farm system with badly needed new blood. If the Jays finish 12 games out of a playoff spot, giving up on your tomorrows for today will look terribly foolish.

Going the other way is less risky. If you call the season in July, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're proved right by the result.

At a guess, that's the way the Jays are leaning. Shapiro was hinting as much back in mid-May.

If that's so, the time for treading water is ending. If the Jays clubhouse wants to be given the chance to see this thing through till the end, they have to start doing it right now. A good target would be crossing the threshold of .500 by the break, which begins July 10. That's the point at which most teams begin firing up their loudest game-theory generators.

It's harder to explain that you are cracking up a winner, both inside and outside the organization. But enough people will buy the explanation if the team is a loser when you begin dismantling it.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/kelly-the-blue-jays-are-schrodingers-cat-so-whats-in-the-box/article35472937/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on June 30, 2017, 05:28:18 PM
So Steve Pearce is sitting for the 2nd game in a row for Ezequiel Carrera. This is a player who has been absolutely on fire the last month (1200+ OPS), has proven to be far, far superior than Carrera on a career basis, has better numbers this year, even considering Carrera's inflated avg and obp, and hits RHP significantly better than the lefty Carrera does. They may be a wash defensively, but, unlike the moronic Carrera, Pearce actually can hit a cutoff man.

I just can't wrap my head around this. Is Gibbons really dumb enough to use a LH hitter vs. RHP solely due to the fact that he's LH, despite the RH being way better?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on June 30, 2017, 05:50:39 PM
I don't have a dog in the fight but bWAR has Pearce and Carrera as equally useless(-0.1) for the year.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on June 30, 2017, 05:54:42 PM
I don't have a dog in the fight but bWAR has Pearce and Carrera as equally useless(-0.1) for the year.

Well Pearce had a horrid start to the season and then got hurt but, as I said, he is raking at a plus 1200 OPS the past 30 games. He also has a much higher value than Carrera career-wise. It's a no-brainer really.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on June 30, 2017, 06:09:13 PM
Well Pearce had a horrid start to the season and then got hurt but, as I said, he is raking at a plus 1200 OPS the past 30 games. He also has a much higher value than Carrera career-wise. It's a no-brainer really.

Both guys are having very good months, with Carrera over .900 OPS for the month in his own right. If I had to guess at a thought process it would be in trying to get some speed/OBP in the lineup combined with Carrera having slightly more success against Fister albeit in very small sample sizes.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on June 30, 2017, 06:48:03 PM
Argh, my long response totally got wiped out. I blame Gibbons! Here's the short of it:

Carrera's month constitutes only 15 games. Pearce has not only still been hitting at a much better rate but has done so for almost twice as many games. Pearce's career OBP is also ten points higher than Carrera's. The only thing favouring Carrera is, as you said, speed, but this is a team that never steals and only scores via home run. Carrera is also a dummy on the basepaths.

The Fister angle is silly to me (but to Gibbons I'm sure it's religion)- 2 hits in 9 at bats. I can't imagine that means anything. That's like scratching Kadri for Ben Smith because he has more goals against a particular goalie in a small sample size.

But this isn't a Carrera bash-fest. He's just a career mid-600 OPS guy who's playing above his head this year and has no business playing consecutive games, as well as pinch hitting, for a clearly superior player. And for a team that can't score runs to save its life, I'm not sure why they keep benching their hottest hitter.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on June 30, 2017, 07:14:53 PM

Just in a general sense re: lineup construction I don't know how seriously I'd take career stats for something like OBP over year over year stats in dictating lineup selection. "How well did these guys get on base in 2012?" seems like information I'd struggle to see as relevant. Carrera is having a very good year in terms of OBP and that may outweigh historical or very recent information and I don't think it's entirely crazy to think that.

That said, I do think the more relevant point is that neither guy is very good. Pearce has a higher career value but almost 75% of his career value comes from one year. They're both basically replacement level guys.

So I guess I see it more like benching Ben Smith for Rich Clune because Rich Clune popped a few against a particular goalie. Maybe not the decision I'd make but sort of harmless in the grand scheme of things.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on June 30, 2017, 07:30:43 PM
Steve Pearce is akin to Richard Clune? Carrera's 150 at bats this year outweigh his consistently bad career totals? Okey dokey, that ends this discussion.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on June 30, 2017, 07:54:15 PM
Steve Pearce is akin to Richard Clune?

Well, no. I mean, if you're going to be snarky about it in that particular analogy Pearce is Smith and Carrera is Clune.

Pearce has a career 8.3 WAR with 5.9 of it coming in one year. So I'm pretty comfortable saying he's a hell of a lot closer to Smith than he is Kadri.

Quote
Carrera's 150 at bats this year outweigh his consistently bad career totals?

I'd phrase it more as Carrerra's career with the Blue Jays vs Pearce's recent numbers being more or less a wash in that regard make the difference a small one as opposed to a large one.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on June 30, 2017, 07:58:50 PM
There was no intended snark in that comparison, but wow, that is a rich complaint coming from you.

Carrera's previous two years with the Blue Jays have been, respectively, atrocious and not very good. Again, you're only talking about his limited at bats this year.

And it is all moot based on my original point: Pearce is raking the ball, hitting around a 1200 OPS in the last month and a half. It's insane to keep benching him and pinch hit for him with an inferior bat.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on June 30, 2017, 08:18:06 PM
There was no intended snark in that comparison, but wow, that is a rich complaint coming from you.

Not a complaint. I don't use snark in a derogatory sense. I was just saying that if you're going to be dismissive of the analogy you should at least get it right.

Quote
Carrera's previous two years with the Blue Jays have been, respectively, atrocious and not very good. Again, you're only talking about his limited at bats this year.

No, I'm talking about the sum total. Carrera, in his time with the Jays, has an OBP that's virtually the same as Pearce's for his career.

So again, I'd put the thinking at "these guys are both marginal ball players, so I'm going to go with Carrera who's had some success against Fister, has the platoon advantage and adds some speed to the lineup".

Which, I grant you, isn't iron clad reasoning or anything but I still think the most important part is the "marginal ball players" bit.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 02, 2017, 04:42:24 PM
Blue Jays pitcher Jason Grilli traded to the Texas Rangers in exchange for minor league hitter Eduardo Pinto plus cash:


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-trade-jason-grilli-rangers-eduard-pinto/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-trade-jason-grilli-rangers-eduard-pinto/)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 03, 2017, 06:10:13 AM
The differences between the Yankees, Red Sox, and the Blue Jays.  What those teams have done that we haven't; roster changes via prospects & youth movement; and what's in store for the future of the Jays as compared to the rest of the A.L....


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/blue-jays-face-an-uncertain-future-within-fortified-al-east/article35529188/ (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/blue-jays-face-an-uncertain-future-within-fortified-al-east/article35529188/)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 04, 2017, 03:28:39 AM
Blue Jays acquire veteran catcher Miguel Montero from the Chicago Cubs in return for  a player to be named later or cash considerations ( in which Chicago may pay all or some of Montero's $7M contract).

As of late, Montero's reputation has been less than stellar, being called "selfish" by the Cubs organization:


https://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/2017/07/03/jays-trade-for-selfish-montero-seems-like-act-of-desperation-griffin.html (https://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/2017/07/03/jays-trade-for-selfish-montero-seems-like-act-of-desperation-griffin.html)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 04, 2017, 10:26:17 AM
Game over. To late to find their groove this year. Very frustrating to say the least... batting with runners in scoring position has been horrendous. Sure they have had injuries but they have not capitalized all year on the opportunities they have had. Big hits have been few a far between. I love my Blue Jays but this just isn't their year.

Still believe in the core, a tweak of the roster and a change of luck could go along way next season.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 13, 2017, 02:51:53 AM
Assessing the Jays' assets:  the very good, the so-so, and the downright not-so-good.  The fact that the Blue Jays currently harbour MLB's oldest roster (oldest team) and with the season they've had so far coupled with all of the injuries to key players at one time or other early in the season, and now, as the team enters the second half and with the trade deadline looming, the Jays management brass will need to decide whether to retool or rebuild:

https://theathletic.com/73251/2017/07/05/how-valuable-are-the-blue-jays-assessing-torontos-assets-ahead-of-the-trade-deadline/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 14, 2017, 10:49:20 PM
The Blue Jays have served notice that several players will be available as per trades (rentals).  This list includes the likes of Estrada, Liriano, Howell, and Smith.

Also on the trading block (though reservedly) are Pearce & J.A. Happ.

This year's trade deadline is July 31st.

Rumours, rumours... https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/07/blue-jays-trade-rumors-estrada-liriano-smith-howell.html
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 15, 2017, 07:58:10 AM
I think we could let Howell go for, say, a single white flavoured tic-tac.

I'd say maybe they could hold out for an orange flavoured one but that might just be a pipe dream at this point.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Darryl on July 18, 2017, 08:13:06 PM
Sell, sell, sell.

Sent from my F3113 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 18, 2017, 09:48:07 PM
Sell, sell, sell.

Yup. Anyone not signed/controlled past this season should be traded for whatever they can get - and a few guys signed/controlled past this season should be made available, too. There's just too many teams between the Jays and the wildcard.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on July 18, 2017, 09:54:22 PM
Sell, sell, sell.

Yup. Anyone not signed/controlled past this season should be traded for whatever they can get - and a few guys signed/controlled past this season should be made available, too. There's just too many teams between the Jays and the wildcard.

The pending FAs aren't doing very well - Estrada, Liriano and Bautista.

Who do you have in mind to move who are controllable beyond this year?
I wouldn't want to move Stroman, Sanchez or Osuna.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 18, 2017, 10:04:46 PM
The pending FAs aren't doing very well - Estrada, Liriano and Bautista.

Not going to get a huge haul for them, no, but they should be able to get something of value back for Bautista and Estrada. Liriano is basically a lost cause.

Who do you have in mind to move who are controllable beyond this year?
I wouldn't want to move Stroman, Sanchez or Osuna.

Those three are probably the only players I put a "not for sale" sign on. I'd definitely listen on Donaldson, who is still a season away from free agency. I wouldn't be pushing him out the door, but, being that he's already in his 30s, he shouldn't be completely off limits. Obviously, moving him would signal the beginning of a full scale rebuild, but, with the age of the core of Jays' offence, that may be the right direction.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on July 18, 2017, 10:54:31 PM
Happ probably holds good value.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 19, 2017, 08:48:28 PM
Happ probably holds good value.

Absolutely. He might have the best value of all the players the Jays might actually be willing to move.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Darryl on July 20, 2017, 09:16:52 PM
Happ has good value. Could get something for reliever Joe Smith assuming he's healthy.  With the number of teams in who still think they have a shot might not be the deepest market place come the deadline.

Sent from my F3113 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Arn on July 21, 2017, 06:48:14 AM
So do we think it was a mistake to hang on to Bautista and not start rebuilding without him (and Encarnacion)? Or has it just been bad luck and injuries?

Is Gibbons the right man to take things on?

Will it be another 20 odd years before the Jays make the post season again?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 21, 2017, 09:52:33 AM
As we've seen, the Blue Jays biggest problem this year has been their offence.  But an even bigger problem, with all of it's vulnerabilities has been the rotation.

According to ESPN Statistics, the Jays overall pitching sits at 17th with a 4.48 ERA in the league. It ranks 19th when one takes into account their starters with a 4.73 ERA.

Last year, the Jays starters ranked 4th overall with a 3.64 ERA.  Among one of the best in the league.

According to Baseball Reference, the Jays offence ranked sixth lowest in the league at 4.13/game.

Coupled with all of the injuries, the 'bad luck' or more aptly put "Murphy's Law" -- "what can go wrong will go wrong" -- whatever you want to call it, it is what it is that makes for a terrible combination of poor results.  Which takes us back to the topic of depth and inconsistency, as I've said a hundred fold.

Depth as in relief pitching -- is Osuna the only good reliable guy they've got?  As a closer, yeah.   None of the Jays bullpen with the exception of Mike Bolsinger (and he's currently on the DL) has shown any real threat to be a good shutdown.  Leone maybe.  As for Tepera, Loup, Harrell....have your say.   not much dependable depth there.

The starters, with the exception of Stroman and perhaps Happ, have been shaky at best. Estrada is havin a year he'll likely want to forget.  Liriano?  Sanchez?  Hampered by recurring blistered finger problems yet again just when he was about to get back to his reliable self. (sigh).

Well, we can say the starting pitching and the offence have one thing in common:  inconsistencies by far and wide.  The depth is there but is there the willingness, the mental toughness, the confidence, etc.    Let's put it this way, Justin Smoak is flying high this year.  He's provided offence in a way the others have not, but where they should have -- Donaldson, Tulo, yes, even Jose. 

Having guys like Steve Pearce, Devon Travis ( who was on track in having himself a career year until he got injured), and Smoak is great.  Now what about the rest of the supporting cast?  Goins & Barney are the weak chain in the order. 

We can go on and on.  The fact remains that the Blue Jays roster is the oldest in MLB, the most injury-prone team this year, lack of proper depth in key places, a general malaise that permeates, and etc.

Lots of questions and a smorgasbord of probable answers.   Just like the Jays season.

One more thing:  the farm system.  It desperately needs to be built up more for the future of the parent team. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Darryl on July 21, 2017, 10:14:54 AM
So do we think it was a mistake to hang on to Bautista and not start rebuilding without him (and Encarnacion)? Or has it just been bad luck and injuries?

Is Gibbons the right man to take things on?

Will it be another 20 odd years before the Jays make the post season again?
The biggest issue moving Bautista is his 10-5 right.  But a chance to win could get him to submit a list of teams.

Sent from my F3113 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 21, 2017, 10:55:35 AM
So do we think it was a mistake to hang on to Bautista and not start rebuilding without him (and Encarnacion)? Or has it just been bad luck and injuries?

Is Gibbons the right man to take things on?

Will it be another 20 odd years before the Jays make the post season again?
The biggest issue moving Bautista is his 10-5 right.  But a chance to win could get him to submit a list of teams.

Sent from my F3113 using Tapatalk

That being said, he's a low .700 OPS hitter right now with below average fielding and base-running skills. I don't imagine the Jays would get anything of note for him.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 21, 2017, 02:39:10 PM
That being said, he's a low .700 OPS hitter right now with below average fielding and base-running skills. I don't imagine the Jays would get anything of note for him.

You never know. I'm sure there are still a couple GMs out there who think he'll rebound on a better team, and are banking on his ability to be a "big game player," etc. All it really takes is one to really fall in love with the idea of adding Bautista to their lineup, and suddenly, the Jays are pulling in a quality prospect or two for him.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 21, 2017, 03:49:54 PM
You never know. I'm sure there are still a couple GMs out there who think he'll rebound on a better team, and are banking on his ability to be a "big game player," etc. All it really takes is one to really fall in love with the idea of adding Bautista to their lineup, and suddenly, the Jays are pulling in a quality prospect or two for him.

Also, there are teams with legit playoff aspirations who are giving regular at-bats to guys performing worse at positions Bautista can play(The Yankees at 1B, for instance).
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on July 21, 2017, 04:24:31 PM
My prediction is that the Blue Jays will do nothing at the deadline.  All of their UFAs have had horrible seasons.  I don't think the fanbase will tolerate trading Bautista, plus I don't think they could get a legit prospect back for him.  I think they will largely keep the current team intact and then rebuild over the off season.  They're not going to trade guys like Happ/Stroman/Osuna/Sanchez/Donaldson because those guys are a big part of the future of this team.  Management is not going to throw the towel on both this season and next season.  That would be catastrophic.  We're not talking about Leafs fans here.  These are Blue Jays fans.  Extremely fickle.  Rogers Centre will be a ghost town.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 21, 2017, 04:28:31 PM
That being said, he's a low .700 OPS hitter right now with below average fielding and base-running skills. I don't imagine the Jays would get anything of note for him.

You never know. I'm sure there are still a couple GMs out there who think he'll rebound on a better team, and are banking on his ability to be a "big game player," etc. All it really takes is one to really fall in love with the idea of adding Bautista to their lineup, and suddenly, the Jays are pulling in a quality prospect or two for him.

I'd be more than happy with a quality prospect as a return, if he's willing to leave.

I'm not sure who Bautista supplants in NY though. Holliday and Frazier are both outperforming him (the latter albeit slightly but still).
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 21, 2017, 04:32:52 PM
They're not going to trade guys like Happ/Stroman/Osuna/Sanchez/Donaldson because those guys are a big part of the future of this team.

Happ is 34, only signed for one more season and has been solid but unspectacular this year. It's fairly unlikely he'll still be a part of a rebuilt Blue Jays team.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 21, 2017, 04:34:51 PM
I'm not sure who Bautista supplants in NY though. Holliday and Frazier are both outperforming him (the latter albeit slightly but still).

Not to get into a protracted statistical discussion but OPS isn't a great single number offensive metric(even OPS+). I don't think too many people within the advanced metrics community think a point of SLG is the equivalent of a point of OBP.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 21, 2017, 04:48:39 PM
I'm not sure who Bautista supplants in NY though. Holliday and Frazier are both outperforming him (the latter albeit slightly but still).

Not to get into a protracted statistical discussion but OPS isn't a great single number offensive metric(even OPS+). I don't think too many people within the advanced metrics community think a point of SLG is the equivalent of a point of OBP.

What do you use though? Bautista's WAR is based on his OF ability but if you want him to be a 1B in NY then that value plummets. His OBP isn't that great either and it' just a little over .300 for the last month and a half.

It could be a decent acquisition in the hopes that a change of scenery or playoff chase might spark him, to be sure, but I don't think any team is going to give up a legit prospect for that chance. I think, if he moves, it will be for, at the most, a couple of low-mid range prospects and with Toronto eating a nice chunk of remaining $. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 21, 2017, 05:09:03 PM
My prediction is that the Blue Jays will do nothing at the deadline.  All of their UFAs have had horrible seasons.  I don't think the fanbase will tolerate trading Bautista, plus I don't think they could get a legit prospect back for him.  I think they will largely keep the current team intact and then rebuild over the off season.  They're not going to trade guys like Happ/Stroman/Osuna/Sanchez/Donaldson because those guys are a big part of the future of this team.  Management is not going to throw the towel on both this season and next season.  That would be catastrophic.  We're not talking about Leafs fans here.  These are Blue Jays fans.  Extremely fickle.  Rogers Centre will be a ghost town.

Yeah, it's a pretty odd (for lack of a better word) situation that the team is in. Attendance is near the top of the MLB so from a business standpoint I can understand the reluctance to tear everything apart. You also can't tank and be saved by a Crosby or Matthews or McDavid either; these prospects take a lot more time and can be quite unpredictable. The farm system's best prospects are far away from the MLB too. So all of that combined with the division being wide open and the wild card dominated by mediocre teams makes the decision to blow it up that more difficult.

Personally I'd love to see major changes. This is a team that struggles to make basic, fundamental plays. They can't run, can't hit with RISP, are aging/injury prone and have been buoyed by a bullpen that has been surprisingly, and unrealistically, good. I just don't see any major changes happening.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 21, 2017, 11:59:00 PM
I think if this team doesn't start moving out a few bodies and planning for the future it will be a major mistake that could set them back even further as far as competing again in the near future.

This team can't move runners or hit with RISP, they don't have a whole lot of speed on the basepaths, the defense has regressed a lot, injuries aside the starting pitching as a whole just hasn't been very good, etc, etc.

On the positive side Smoak has surprised and the bullpen hasn't been too bad.

What has been really crappy is the UFA players just being plain awful and making them worth next to nothing in a trade (Estrada, Liriano and Howell in particular).
I still think someone will make a fair offer for Bautista, but he needs to waive his no-trade clause to make that happen.
Really think you have to go beyond those guys and really think about moving guys like Happ, one of Barney/Goins, and maybe Donaldson too if you get an offer that blows your socks off.

I keep hearing people say they need to keep the core together for another run in 2018. Why? How will the team be any better than the 2017 version in that scenario? Personally I think the contention window has shut on the current group and its time to be smart and build for the future.

Next season should be the start of the transition as you can't get rid of all these contracts for older, declining players at once. The team will have to be built around guys like Martin, Tulo and Morales with younger, cheaper players with more upside filling in at some of the other positions.
There are a few guys on the roster now who should not be moved and become key pieces of the future such as Osuna, Stroman, and Sanchez. The jury is still out on Travis with all the injury history and the Dee Gordon rumblings it makes me wonder if he gets moved to a corner outfield spot in the near future. I'd consider keeping Pillar with his great glove, but just wish he would improve with the bat.

As far as losing casual fans go I could care less about those people. I just hope Jays management will feel the same way and do what is best for the team, not for the bottom line. If you do what is best for the team these casual fans will come crawling back eventually anyway to jump on the bandwagon.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 22, 2017, 08:29:47 AM
What do you use though? Bautista's WAR is based on his OF ability but if you want him to be a 1B in NY then that value plummets.

Well, I think the best approach to take is to not look for any single metric but rather have a composite picture based on a number of them. "How well is player X hitting" isn't a one answer question in the way that WAR, say, makes a question of a player's total raw value fairly straightforward.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 22, 2017, 12:19:58 PM
What do you use though? Bautista's WAR is based on his OF ability but if you want him to be a 1B in NY then that value plummets.

Well, I think the best approach to take is to not look for any single metric but rather have a composite picture based on a number of them. "How well is player X hitting" isn't a one answer question in the way that WAR, say, makes a question of a player's total raw value fairly straightforward.

Yea, I agree with that. It would be interesting to see how well Bautista would perform in a market like NY, or some place similar. He just looks, to me, like he's close to being done, especially with the way he's been playing the last few months. I really don't see any team ponying up anything that great to acquire him.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 22, 2017, 12:49:43 PM
I really don't see any team ponying up anything that great to acquire him.

Probably not but teams have been known to make bad decisions at deadline time.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Darryl on July 22, 2017, 10:13:11 PM
Anderson for Bagwell comes to mind. As does Slocumb for Varitek and Lowe.

Sent from my F3113 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 23, 2017, 03:34:42 PM
The Jays have traded AA 1B Ryan McBroom to the Yankees for INF/OF Rob Refsnyder. Refsnyder will report to Buffalo.

Refsnyder primarily plays 2B with some corner OF and 1B as well. Is he the short-term fill-in for Travis or a guy to replace one of Goins/Barney on the depth chart?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 23, 2017, 06:52:26 PM
The Jays have traded AA 1B Ryan McBroom to the Yankees for INF/OF Rob Refsnyder. Refsnyder will report to Buffalo.

Refsnyder primarily plays 2B with some corner OF and 1B as well. Is he the short-term fill-in for Travis or a guy to replace one of Goins/Barney on the depth chart?

They also picked up Nick Tepesh for cash today. Feels like they're bringing in some MLB capable depth/AAA replacement pieces to fill the gaps after they move out some pieces.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on July 27, 2017, 06:23:03 PM
I heard a rumor on TSN that the Jays are going to keep both Bautista and Estrada and sign them both to contract extensions.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 27, 2017, 07:04:33 PM
I heard a rumor on TSN that the Jays are going to keep both Bautista and Estrada and sign them both to contract extensions.

Sounds like complete horse $hit to me! If you are fishing I'll bite!  ;)

First off the Jays have 2 team options for Bautista for 2018 and 2019 so they already have him under control for the rest of his useful major league career if they so choose. I don't see the team electing to use those options, but at the same time Bautista can't be traded without his permission due to his 10 and 5 rights. If he doesn't allow the Jays to trade him this season I think they just elect not to pick up their option(s) on his contract and he becomes a UFA this fall.
One day Jose's name will be up on the Level of Excellence, but I don't get the sense that anyone in the organization feels he shouldn't be traded for sentimental reasons.

As for Estrada why not trade him at the deadline and then bring him back next year when he hits the UFA market if you want him that badly? It would be poor asset management NOT to take that approach with him if that is your intent.
I can't say for sure that BOTH Estrada and Liriano will be traded, but definitely feel that at least one of them will be.
The Jays would be foolish to bring Estrada back judging by the results of the last couple months. Think it is a combination of back issues and age, but believe his best days are behind him and can't help this team going forward.
Lastly on Estrada, I noticed he really went out of his way to sign a lot of autographs for Jays fans in Cleveland, could be his way of saying goodbye. He dodged the trade questions in his last interview, but his reaction to them and the look on his face were those of someone resigned to his fate.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on July 27, 2017, 08:35:33 PM
No, Captain Canuck, they do not control Bautista for the next two seasons, those are mutual options meaning both sides have to agree to continue it year by year.  Either side has the right to walk away.  I highly doubt that Bautista is worth exactly the $18 million or whatever the contract says for next year.  There is a 99% chance that he is either gone or they will re-negotiate a new contract.

As for your opinions on the rumors, I could see both players having interest in signing an extension now.  It would prevent them from having to be uprooted.  Both of them love Toronto, Bautista in particular, he has been here a long time.  Neither one of them is going to bring back a major prospect.  I was just reading that they might get Glen Sparkman from KC for Liriano.  Neither Bautista nor Estrada will fetch more than that.  I think there is more value in keeping both players around.  Both should hopefully sign new reasonable contracts.  If the Jays can get both of them on one year deals it would be fantastic.  Then after the 2018 season they will have their options open.  My opinion is that Bautista should be made a Blue Jay for life.  He has earned it IMO.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 27, 2017, 09:15:46 PM
I stand corrected on the options, but in any event the Jays will be the ones to decide what they want to do with Bautista. I still don't believe re-negotiating a contract with Jose is one of the possibilities. He was lucky to get his current deal with the team IMO. They didn't exactly rush out to sign him last off-season did they?

You are entitled to your opinions, I just don't see how bringing back older players who you can dump this season is particularly wise for the future. You aren't going to move the Martin and Tulo contracts and have a big decision to make on Donaldson in the next year.
I heard the Sparkman rumour and think that is dumb as well. If they wanted Sparkman that badly they could have kept him and gave up nothing. To give him back to KC and then trade for him a month later is poor asset management.
You saw what the 2017 team did and yet you want to bring back the same roster and expect a different result?
If this team doesn't start building with an eye to the future you will be left with an old expensive mediocre roster with no chance at the playoffs...been there, done that!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on July 27, 2017, 09:28:55 PM
I stand corrected on the options, but in any event the Jays will be the ones to decide what they want to do with Bautista. I still don't believe re-negotiating a contract with Jose is one of the possibilities. He was lucky to get his current deal with the team IMO. They didn't exactly rush out to sign him last off-season did they?

You are entitled to your opinions, I just don't see how bringing back older players who you can dump this season is particularly wise for the future. You aren't going to move the Martin and Tulo contracts and have a big decision to make on Donaldson in the next year.
I heard the Sparkman rumour and think that is dumb as well. If they wanted Sparkman that badly they could have kept him and gave up nothing. To give him back to KC and then trade for him a month later is poor asset management.
You saw what the 2017 team did and yet you want to bring back the same roster and expect a different result?
If this team doesn't start building with an eye to the future you will be left with an old expensive mediocre roster with no chance at the playoffs...been there, done that!
I say buy low on both players.  At worst we will get similar results to what they are doing now.  However both could turn out to be incredible bargains, particularly Estrada.  He was an elite pitcher not long ago.  The Jays need to fill out the rotation and they are extremely thin in the outfield.  Bautista has fielded extremely well this year and he has had ok production at the plate.

It's not time to rebuild yet.  I understand your frustration, but the Jays' window is open for one more season while they still have Stroman/Donaldson/Sanchez/Pillar/Martin/Tulo.  It's just not time yet IMO.  Actually they face weak teams for the next three series, who knows what can happen.  They can throw in the towel now and get three lousy prospects like Sparkman, or they can keep going with what they have and see what happens.  IMO they should do a full scorched earth rebuild after next season if they continue to play poorly.  I don't think the time is right currently.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 27, 2017, 11:56:44 PM

Estrada was never an elite pitcher. He had two pretty good back to back years(3.5 and 3.6 bWAR's) but even still that was in significantly less than 200 innings and they were both with pretty high FIPs(because he's always had trouble keeping the ball in the park, as we've seen this year, if he's not effectively the best pitcher in the league at hit suppression he's going to have real problems).

I don't know how much you want to invest in the idea of what will be a 35 year old consistently delivering a career performance year-in and out. I think we saw enough from Dickey how that isn't a great investment.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 28, 2017, 12:08:16 AM
I stand corrected on the options, but in any event the Jays will be the ones to decide what they want to do with Bautista. I still don't believe re-negotiating a contract with Jose is one of the possibilities. He was lucky to get his current deal with the team IMO. They didn't exactly rush out to sign him last off-season did they?

You are entitled to your opinions, I just don't see how bringing back older players who you can dump this season is particularly wise for the future. You aren't going to move the Martin and Tulo contracts and have a big decision to make on Donaldson in the next year.
I heard the Sparkman rumour and think that is dumb as well. If they wanted Sparkman that badly they could have kept him and gave up nothing. To give him back to KC and then trade for him a month later is poor asset management.
You saw what the 2017 team did and yet you want to bring back the same roster and expect a different result?
If this team doesn't start building with an eye to the future you will be left with an old expensive mediocre roster with no chance at the playoffs...been there, done that!
I say buy low on both players.  At worst we will get similar results to what they are doing now.  However both could turn out to be incredible bargains, particularly Estrada.  He was an elite pitcher not long ago.  The Jays need to fill out the rotation and they are extremely thin in the outfield.  Bautista has fielded extremely well this year and he has had ok production at the plate.

It's not time to rebuild yet.  I understand your frustration, but the Jays' window is open for one more season while they still have Stroman/Donaldson/Sanchez/Pillar/Martin/Tulo.  It's just not time yet IMO.  Actually they face weak teams for the next three series, who knows what can happen.  They can throw in the towel now and get three lousy prospects like Sparkman, or they can keep going with what they have and see what happens.  IMO they should do a full scorched earth rebuild after next season if they continue to play poorly.  I don't think the time is right currently.

I'm not advocating for a full out rebuild yet either, but definitely have to move some of the older guys out now. Liriano, Estrada, Joe Smith, Barney, and Bautista if you can.
You keep Stroman, Osuna, Sanchez, Pillar, maybe Travis and that becomes your core to build around. Tulo and Martin stay because you can't move those contracts and then Donaldson you have to make a big decision on next year.
The most pressing needs for next year are going to be finding 1-2 starting pitchers and 1-2 outfielders. I could live with another year of Bautista if there are no better options, but don't want to see Estrada back at all. Someone like Lance Lynn or Alex Cobb would be preferable.

I'm not frustrated in the least, could tell early on that it was a lost season. Like I said I don't want to see an old, expensive non-competitive team a few seasons from now and then we spend 20 years out in the wilderness...been there, done that! The next core is already in place, just a matter of adding a few more younger guys with cheaper, controllable contracts (Refsnyder is a start) and then bringing up the Bichettes, Guerreros and Biggios.

As for this season if you think the Jays have any chance you are lying to yourself. Do the math: 41-19, 42-18...that is what it would take at minimum to make the playoffs. Getting to .500 would be a lofty goal at this point.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on July 28, 2017, 01:04:56 AM

Estrada was never an elite pitcher. He had two pretty good back to back years(3.5 and 3.6 bWAR's) but even still that was in significantly less than 200 innings and they were both with pretty high FIPs(because he's always had trouble keeping the ball in the park, as we've seen this year, if he's not effectively the best pitcher in the league at hit suppression he's going to have real problems).

I don't know how much you want to invest in the idea of what will be a 35 year old consistently delivering a career performance year-in and out. I think we saw enough from Dickey how that isn't a great investment.
Estrada's stats were at the top of the league for two seasons and he was lights out in the playoffs.  The way you constantly disagree with everyone here gets really boring really quickly.  Please go away and stick to hockey.  You don't know what you're talking about.  If you're going to disagree with someone at least get it right.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 28, 2017, 01:19:31 AM
Estrada's stats were at the top of the league for two seasons and he was lights out in the playoffs.  The way you constantly disagree with everyone here gets really boring really quickly.  Please go away and stick to hockey.  You don't know what you're talking about.  If you're going to disagree with someone at least get it right.

You'll notice I listed actual stats in my post whereas you haven't. Estrada's "stats" range from good to bad in those years. He was top of the league in H/9 and was top 10 in WHIP and ERA+ for both years but he was never top 10 in IP, WAR, BB/9, HR/9, K/9, FIP or anything else.

So, again, two good years but nothing elite. And what largely drove his good WHIP and ERA numbers, hit suppression, isn't a stat you should put a ton of money on getting better with age.

Lastly, I don't make this personal and am using stats based arguments. You've got no standing to tell me where to post and if you don't like what I post you're free to either not respond or just generally get bent.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 28, 2017, 02:13:53 AM
Jays GM Atkins and Shapiro both believe the Jays... "underperformed and underachieved both offensively and defensively this year"...

ďWe still feel like we have a great team for 2018 Ė that weíll need to add to,Ē said Atkins. ďThat could mean subtraction from this team. It might not. We would hope to and like to for this team to remain relevant and a contending team, potentially. Now I think the odds of that have decreased dramatically, but we still feel confident we can put a quality team on the field.Ē

Source:   theathletic,com


While they sound like they've thrown in the towel on the season, so to speak, don't tell that to Josh Donaldson or Aaron Sanchez.  They believe the team has enough time to turn things around.   Striving for a sense of positivity in a season of negativity all around is not a bad thing.  Believing that they can actually mitigate a complete and total turnaround is something else.  The Blue Jays are gonna have to prove it on the field the rest of the way.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 28, 2017, 10:02:59 AM


I don't know how much you want to invest in the idea of what will be a 35 year old consistently delivering a career performance year-in and out. I think we saw enough from Dickey how that isn't a great investment.

Dickey was 38 when he got here. From ages 35 through 37 he was consistently great. And he was a knuckleballer with a fastball in the low-80's. So I'm not sure how that relates to Estrada and his hypothetical success as a 34-36 year old (If anything, really, this all supports your argument).

With Estrada, for me the question/concern is about fastball velocity and if/when it's going to drop. He's actually up from last year and his K rate has improved. He has been hurt by the homerun (more than usual and, imo, mostly as a result of the juiced ball/bat bull that is going on this year), porous outfield defense and some major command struggles. His FIP is actually a full run lower than his ERA. I'd be fine with a one-year deal and a team option for the 2nd and, with some fine tuning and an improved defense behind him, I can see a really strong bounce-back year (or two).




Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 28, 2017, 11:07:13 AM
I heard a rumor on TSN that the Jays are going to keep both Bautista and Estrada and sign them both to contract extensions.
I would be on board for resigning both.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 28, 2017, 11:57:24 AM
Dickey was 38 when he got here. From ages 35 through 37 he was consistently great. And he was a knuckleballer with a fastball in the low-80's. So I'm not sure how that relates to Estrada and his hypothetical success as a 34-36 year old (If anything, really, this all supports your argument).

I may have written that paragraph poorly. Like you say, Dickey was a knuckleballer and as a result had a different trajectory with regards to his age. My point there was that the Jays paid such a high price for him based largely on a career year(he'd been good the previous two years, with WAR's of 3.6 both years, but in his Cy Young year he jumped to 5.8).

So I guess it's a little disjointed but all I mean is you shouldn't expect regular, non-knuckleball pitchers to match or improve on their career years at age 35 and you definitely shouldn't negotiate with them on that basis, the way the Jays sort of did with the Mets for Dickey.

With Estrada, for me the question/concern is about fastball velocity and if/when it's going to drop. He's actually up from last year and his K rate has improved. He has been hurt by the homerun (more than usual and, imo, mostly as a result of the juiced ball/bat bull that is going on this year), porous outfield defense and some major command struggles. His FIP is actually a full run lower than his ERA. I'd be fine with a one-year deal and a team option for the 2nd and, with some fine tuning and an improved defense behind him, I can see a really strong bounce-back year (or two).

I think you're getting at why FIP can be a valuable predictor. For the last 5 years Estrada's FIP has been fairly consistent, ranging from 3.86 to 4.88(and both of those are his last 2 Brewer years, with the Jays it's between 4.15 and 4.52) while his ERA has jumped around by 2 runs or so. He's not great in terms of walks allowed, he gives up too many HR and, before this season anyway, he hasn't struck many guys out. That makes his actual results largely dependent on things outside of his control like BABIP and the defense behind him.

I'm not as onboard as sum with the idea that pitcher's have very little input in how many hits they give up but I do think there's a lot of random chance in there so I think for Estrada to have the sorts of years he had in the two years prior, realistically, he's got to become one of the very best pitchers in the league at minimizing hits allowed. That strikes me as unlikely.

So I think he can be of some value going forward but I wouldn't be surprised if he hits a point where his FIP and his ERA sort of line up. A 4.00 ERA pitcher can be valuable but, you know, I don't know if it's valuable enough to not look to add assets instead.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on July 28, 2017, 03:37:19 PM
Estrada's stats were at the top of the league for two seasons and he was lights out in the playoffs.  The way you constantly disagree with everyone here gets really boring really quickly.  Please go away and stick to hockey.  You don't know what you're talking about.  If you're going to disagree with someone at least get it right.

You'll notice I listed actual stats in my post whereas you haven't. Estrada's "stats" range from good to bad in those years. He was top of the league in H/9 and was top 10 in WHIP and ERA+ for both years but he was never top 10 in IP, WAR, BB/9, HR/9, K/9, FIP or anything else.

So, again, two good years but nothing elite. And what largely drove his good WHIP and ERA numbers, hit suppression, isn't a stat you should put a ton of money on getting better with age.

Lastly, I don't make this personal and am using stats based arguments. You've got no standing to tell me where to post and if you don't like what I post you're free to either not respond or just generally get bent.
You're full of shit.  Here are his stats:

Quote
2015 3.13era   181.0ip .203opp.avg.   1.04whip
2016 3.48era 176.0ip .203opp.avg. 1.12whip

Those are elite stats.  He has been at the top of the league for the past two seasons.  Up there with the very best.  As usual you add nothing to the forum but your own inflated ego.  It must be pretty sad to have to try to bring others down to your level.  Please spare me your bull#$#% and if you're going to disagree with me, at least base it on something factual, not some random stat that you pulled out of your ass.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 28, 2017, 03:48:24 PM
Those are elite stats.

No, they're not. A 3.48 ERA is not a number that places him among baseball's best. Neither are sub-200 innings pitched(he ranked 25th in 2015, 30th in 2016). He had some good numbers, like I acknowledged, but nobody took him seriously as a Cy Young candidate in either year(a 10th place finish in 2015, no votes in '16) because, again, he did not pitch enough at a high enough level.

And all of the numbers I used are easy enough to look up on Baseball Reference. Whether you can wrap your head around them is up to you.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on July 28, 2017, 04:31:35 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/4J5Gqxo.gif)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on July 28, 2017, 04:36:46 PM
Those are elite stats.

No, they're not. A 3.48 ERA is not a number that places him among baseball's best. Neither are sub-200 innings pitched(he ranked 25th in 2015, 30th in 2016). He had some good numbers, like I acknowledged, but nobody took him seriously as a Cy Young candidate in either year(a 10th place finish in 2015, no votes in '16) because, again, he did not pitch enough at a high enough level.

And all of the numbers I used are easy enough to look up on Baseball Reference. Whether you can wrap your head around them is up to you.
Ok so I guess all these people are idiots and don't know what they're talking about:

https://medium.com/the-unbalanced/how-is-marco-estrada-still-underrated-4dd5c1052c60

https://jaysjournal.com/2017/05/22/blue-jays-estradas-value-keeps-going/

http://nationalpost.com/g00/sports/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-pitcher-marco-estrada-has-travelled-a-long-road-from-the-tough-side-of-town-to-the-toast-of-toronto/wcm/2c7d86d0-ab26-4da0-bb95-1e722d6f9570?i10c.referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2F

http://www.sportingnews.com/ca/mlb/news/marco-estrada-playoffs-pitchers-changeup-home-run-fly-ballb/n2xzyia6hhue12zkym453v0z4

https://calltothepen.com/2016/06/06/toronto-blue-jays-marco-estrada-impressive-officially-ace-conversation/

Quote
Marco Estrada has come into 2017 healthy and with the same elite stuff he has showcased since arriving in Toronto

Quote
With the arsenal that Estrada relies on, itís entirely possible that he could continue his elite production over the next several years.

Quote
Blue Jays pitching coach Pete Walker said Estrada has the respect of every guy in the clubhouse because of the way he carries himself and the work heís done to become an elite pitcher.

Quote
Make a list of the best changeups in baseball. Cole Hamels comes to mind. Does Marco Estrada? He should. Estrada has an elite 21.63 percent whiff rate with the pitch, putting the offering among the league leading pitches for whiff rate.

Quote
Often you will find a converted starter find success as a reliever, but Estrada has become elite while staying in the starting rotation.

Pete Walker was one of those people quoted.  I guess you must just know more than him, right?

People like you truly are the scourge of the internet.  You're completely full of hot air.  Full of yourself.  Always talking down others baselessly, disagreeing for no reason other than to pretend that you're "right".  Get a life.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 28, 2017, 04:43:25 PM
Ok so I guess all these people are idiots and don't know what they're talking about:

No, they're just exaggerating. Except for the one about the swing and miss rate on his change-up. I'm pretty sure the topic of conversation wasn't "Does Marco Estrada have a good swing and miss rate on one of his pitches" though.

Pete Walker was one of those people quoted.  I guess you must just know more than him, right?

No, but I think numbers like IP, WAR and FIP, are more objective than he is. Coaches talk up their players. It's not that tricky a concept.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on July 28, 2017, 04:44:32 PM
 ::)

I'm going to stick to another forum to talk about the Blue Jays.  Later guys.  Enjoy your time with Nik the Troll.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on July 28, 2017, 04:54:11 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/NdLNQAbjWUBWw/source.gif)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on July 28, 2017, 06:06:39 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/1t8p6x.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/1t8p6x)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 28, 2017, 06:42:24 PM
People like you truly are the scourge of the internet.  You're completely full of hot air.  Full of yourself.  Always talking down others baselessly, disagreeing for no reason other than to pretend that you're "right".  Get a life.

But that's all you've do... ah forget about it you seem to have left anyway.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 28, 2017, 08:05:59 PM
I'm starting to think that Tulo just doesn't like playing baseball any more.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on July 28, 2017, 08:21:17 PM
People like you truly are the scourge of the internet.  You're completely full of hot air.  Full of yourself.  Always talking down others baselessly, disagreeing for no reason other than to pretend that you're "right".  Get a life.

But that's all you've do... ah forget about it you seem to have left anyway.
Please show me one example.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 28, 2017, 08:49:52 PM
Please show me one example.

Literally every single one of your posts in this discussion had at least one personal insult towards Nik:

Please go away and stick to hockey.  You don't know what you're talking about.  If you're going to disagree with someone at least get it right.

As usual you add nothing to the forum but your own inflated ego.

People like you truly are the scourge of the internet.  You're completely full of hot air.  Full of yourself.

All he did was disagree with an opinion you posted on an internet discussion forum in a completely reasonable manner and you reacted in a completely unreasonable manner. I don't care what kind of opinion you have of Nik or any other poster here, you can't launch into attacks like that simply because somebody thinks that you're wrong on the internet.

Seriously, if you can't handle people disagreeing with you then just leave. You've threatened to do it like half a dozen times anyway. Including like an hour ago.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on July 28, 2017, 09:32:19 PM
Please show me one example.

Literally every single one of your posts in this discussion had at least one personal insult towards Nik:

Please go away and stick to hockey.  You don't know what you're talking about.  If you're going to disagree with someone at least get it right.

As usual you add nothing to the forum but your own inflated ego.

People like you truly are the scourge of the internet.  You're completely full of hot air.  Full of yourself.

All he did was disagree with an opinion you posted on an internet discussion forum in a completely reasonable manner and you reacted in a completely unreasonable manner. I don't care what kind of opinion you have of Nik or any other poster here, you can't launch into attacks like that simply because somebody thinks that you're wrong on the internet.

Seriously, if you can't handle people disagreeing with you then just leave. You've threatened to do it like half a dozen times anyway. Including like an hour ago.
You can't compare what I have done to his nonsense. I have simply become completely frustrated by the fact that he is a total idiot. He constantly disagrees baselessly with practically everything I say, I'm sure he does it to others. I'm not surprised to see you taking his side, either. You guys are like a pack of wolves, you have acted this way since I started posting here. It's like a fraternity. This is not a way to build any type of meaningful community. Birds of a feather flock together I guess. I actually really like many of the members here like Herman. It's a shame that people like Nik ruin it and to make matters worse idiot moderators like you condone his bull#$#% and enable his nonsense. I am an intellect. I guess I don't fit in here. Not much intellectual discussion, just a lot of bull#$#% and people tooting their own horn. I could learn more reading a gossip column.

You can find examples of me being hostile towards Nik but you won't find a single post by me talking down to people the way he does. And like I said, what I have done is simply in response to his complete and utter stupidity.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on July 28, 2017, 09:40:50 PM
Dude, you're way out of line.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on July 28, 2017, 09:59:43 PM
Well, since I've been named as sickbeast's favourite person here (cheers, bud), I guess I should say something.

I've had differences of opinion/interpretation with both Nik and sickbeast before and I've agreed with them many other times. I can see why sickbeast feels frustrated as Nik can be interpreted as acerbic (I think it's hilarious). He's really quite good at outlining his point of view with facts and illustrations. The people who find that grating tend to not like having their blind spots pointed out.

sickbeast, please re-read some of what you've posted recently (imagine it under a different username in the cold light of morning if need be). It sounds like someone who is exactly like the Nik you purport to want to defend us all from. No one is against you personally (well maybe now), but statements that don't jive will get discussed and argued about on the Internet. That's why we are here: to put our ideas out there and have them sharpened and refined by the community.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 28, 2017, 10:29:00 PM
You can find examples of me being hostile towards Nik but you won't find a single post by me talking down to people the way he does. And like I said, what I have done is simply in response to his complete and utter stupidity.

Listen man, I get that you don't like Nik. And I get that you don't like me. You've made those two things clear before. I don't really care. Posters have discussions and disagreements with Nik and others every single day on these boards and it's been a very, very long time since that's caused a thread to be hijacked the way you hijacked this one. If you're incapable of having a civil discourse with another poster because of you're intense, personal dislike for them then just ignore them. You turned a perfectly reasonable debate about whether or not Marco Estrada is considered an elite pitcher into a one-sided pissing match. That's on you. Stop blaming others for it.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 28, 2017, 11:49:09 PM
I heard a rumor on TSN that the Jays are going to keep both Bautista and Estrada and sign them both to contract extensions.
I would be on board for resigning both.

So, trying to get this thread back on track . . .

Estrada back on a short deal is worth considering - the Jays' defence has really let their staff down this year, and Estrada's number have taken a big hit because of that. Shore up the D next season, and he's probably back to being a valuable starter.

Bautista, however . . . based on the past two seasons, it's time to let him walk. He's become part of the defensive problem, as his mobility has become a major issue. Unless he moves to 1B, he's not someone you want out in the field on a day-to-day basis. His bat speed has also dropped significantly - to the point that he's an average to below average contributor overall. He still has some power left, but, when he doesn't go yard, he doesn't produce any offence of note. At his age, things are highly unlikely to improve, either.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 28, 2017, 11:52:55 PM
Estrada back on a short deal is worth considering - the Jays' defence has really let their staff down this year, and Estrada's number have taken a big hit because of that. Shore up the D next season, and he's probably back to being a valuable starter.

Broadly speaking I agree with that. To my mind, the question is if you trade Estrada and get some prospects can you go out and sign someone who'll effectively replace that value.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 28, 2017, 11:54:58 PM
Broadly speaking I agree with that. To my mind, the question is if you trade Estrada and get some prospects can you go out and sign someone who'll effectively replace that value.

I mean, in theory, you could simply just sign Estrada again, so, yes?

I don't think Estrada is overwhelmingly hard to replace on the free agent market. You might have to overpay a little, because, well, free agency, but there will be equivalent options out there.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on July 29, 2017, 12:42:44 PM
Guys I apologize for going off the way I did, particularly to Nik the Trik and CarltonTheBear.  My frustration got the better of me.  I appreciate the way you guys handled it.  I thought I was going to have my posts deleted or else get banned.  Thank you for your understanding.  I do sincerely apologize.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 29, 2017, 04:30:45 PM
I heard a rumor on TSN that the Jays are going to keep both Bautista and Estrada and sign them both to contract extensions.
I would be on board for resigning both.

So, trying to get this thread back on track . . .

Bautista, however . . . based on the past two seasons, it's time to let him walk. He's become part of the defensive problem, as his mobility has become a major issue. Unless he moves to 1B, he's not someone you want out in the field on a day-to-day basis. His bat speed has also dropped significantly - to the point that he's an average to below average contributor overall. He still has some power left, but, when he doesn't go yard, he doesn't produce any offence of note. At his age, things are highly unlikely to improve, either.

Bautista since June 1st: .190 AVG, .299 OBP .333 SLG .279 wOBA  69 wRC+  6HR  17RBI. His defense is below average and his base running is atrocious this year (UBR -4.6). I'm not optimistic that any of that will change next year when he's even older. They have to let him walk.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 29, 2017, 05:50:42 PM

Yeah, I guess my only question re: Bautista is whether or not you bring him back for a year or two during a rebuild because he's a fan favourite and could theoretically be chasing some big milestones like 1000 RBI and(unlikely) 400 HR. Also, and this is sort of firing blindly, maybe you hope that he can regain some of his form if he's DHing every day.

Otherwise, yeah.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Arn on July 29, 2017, 06:19:47 PM
I thought Bautista grounding into the game ending double play today following a blown save with runners advancing on wild pitches kind of summed up the season today. Finding ways to lose or be "unlucky". It definitely feels like that particular incarnation of the Jays had their shot the last couple of years and couldn't quite get it done and the era is ending.

I have no stats to back any of this up, it was just that kind of guy feeling.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 29, 2017, 06:46:22 PM
I thought Bautista grounding into the game ending double play today following a blown save with runners advancing on wild pitches kind of summed up the season today. Finding ways to lose or be "unlucky". It definitely feels like that particular incarnation of the Jays had their shot the last couple of years and couldn't quite get it done and the era is ending.

I have no stats to back any of this up, it was just that kind of guy feeling.

It doesn't invalidate your notion but something that's maybe important to take note of is that if we use the difference between a team's record and their expected pythagorean W-L as "luck" then the Jays have actually been somewhat lucky this year as they're actually five games above it.

They've actually got the fifth worst run differential in the majors. Osuna being as good as he's been and some lucky bounces are probably all that separates the Jays from one of the worst records in the baseball.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Arn on July 29, 2017, 07:56:46 PM
That's quite interesting - I haven't been able to catch as many jays games this year as I didn't bother with MLB.tv and normally don't until later in the year when it gets to penant races and playoffs so I've been relying on UK tv to get my baseball fix.

But from watching at more of a distance I've picked up a sense of bad luck (injuries in the main) or players not performing as expected etc etc in the reports and social media so the notions and reality differ somewhat
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 29, 2017, 08:42:06 PM

Yeah, expected W-L isn't a perfect illustration of luck as a concept. There is just some plain ol' randomness involved. You're right that the Jays have been unlucky in terms of injury and in some cases just bizarre ones(Sanchez being unable to throw a baseball, for instance)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 30, 2017, 04:47:13 PM
Tulowitzki injury more serious than first perceived.  Looks like he could be out indefinitely...

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Arn on July 31, 2017, 04:30:02 PM
So a few trades going through and possibly a couple more still to come including possibly Happ. Are any of the pieces that have come back potential worthwhile prospects?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 31, 2017, 04:46:42 PM
So a few trades going through and possibly a couple more still to come including possibly Happ. Are any of the pieces that have come back potential worthwhile prospects?

Hernandez, the OF received for Liriano actually has a lot of potential. He was ranked 6th out of Astros prospects at the beginning of the season and all the lists seem to have him in their top 10. Athletic, good AAA numbers, plays a position of dire need; it's a pretty nice return for a #5 pitcher who hasn't pitched well and whose contract is expiring.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 31, 2017, 04:47:18 PM
So a few trades going through and possibly a couple more still to come including possibly Happ. Are any of the pieces that have come back potential worthwhile prospects?

None of the three that we know of so far have particularly high ceilings, from the looks of things, but they've all put up pretty decent minor league numbers. Teoscar Hernandez - the prospect they received from Houston - probably gets some MLB time this season. The others are at least a couple years away.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 31, 2017, 05:21:56 PM
Here's an updated Jays prospect list: http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2017?list=tor

Granted I'm not sure how accurate mlb.com rankings are but Hernandez slides in at #5.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 31, 2017, 05:25:59 PM
Man, the Dodgers aren't playing around.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on July 31, 2017, 06:30:02 PM
Man, the Dodgers aren't playing around.

Ya I'll be paying attention to them in the playoffs this year for sure.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 31, 2017, 11:48:10 PM
I like the Liriano trade, pretty solid return. Hernandez looks like a good prospect who is nearly MLB ready, look for him to get a September call-up.
Not sure if Aoki is a throw-in, salary dump move by Houston or if Jays management actually plan on keeping him around until next season. Their latest buzzword has been "controllable" players and Aoki is arbitration-eligible this fall and not an UFA until 2019. Personally, I would like to see him non-tendered and move on (He'll be 35 before next season), but not so sure that is what will happen.

Hard to predict what the future holds for the 2 prospects in the Smith trade. Could be good, could be a waste of time...can't really say at this point with lower-level prospects.

Not surprised that Estrada wasn't dealt as he had no trade value. If he can string together a few starts like he had tonight though he could be a trade target for a contender in August.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on August 01, 2017, 09:52:29 AM
This probably ends Jose Bautista's tenure in Toronto.  They're not going to want to block their prospects from the MLB level.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on August 01, 2017, 02:32:03 PM
This probably ends Jose Bautista's tenure in Toronto.  They're not going to want to block their prospects from the MLB level.

Bautista's struggling so badly that even Aoki in right might soon be an upgrade. I don't really see Jose returning in any capacity either.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on August 03, 2017, 10:02:01 AM
Jose Bautista has been placed on revocable waivers.  Sad.  It could be the end of an era.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on August 03, 2017, 10:06:57 AM
Jose Bautista has been placed on revocable waivers.  Sad.  It could be the end of an era.

Remember all the long-term contract talk last year?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Arn on August 03, 2017, 10:29:53 AM
At least Donaldson has started to show a bit of the old magic the last few games. He was superb yesterday.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Bender on August 03, 2017, 12:57:36 PM
Jose Bautista has been placed on revocable waivers.  Sad.  It could be the end of an era.
So I don't understand how the waiver process works in baseball. What does this mean? Is he still playing for the team?

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on August 03, 2017, 12:59:05 PM
Jose Bautista has been placed on revocable waivers.  Sad.  It could be the end of an era.
So I don't understand how the waiver process works in baseball. What does this mean? Is he still playing for the team?

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk
It's revocable waivers, so the Jays are basically making him available for trade.  They can pull him back off waivers if they want.  But this pretty much signals that Bautista's days as a Blue Jay are over, if not now, at the end of the season.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 03, 2017, 01:37:37 PM
So I don't understand how the waiver process works in baseball. What does this mean? Is he still playing for the team?

If a team wants to make a trade after the July 31st deadline then they can only trade a player after they've gone through waivers. What revocable waivers does is let a team put a player on the waiver wire to see if a team makes a claim. If a team does, than they can pull him off waivers but it means any trade won't happen.

So, yes, for now he's still with the team. If he clears waivers though he might get dealt.

I feel like this opens the window a bit to him coming back next year because if he's traded and whoever he's traded to declines his option year he may be willing to come back at a reduced cost. I don't know if the Jays would be in on that but then again I really don't know what the Jays plans are long term.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on August 03, 2017, 03:53:53 PM
So I don't understand how the waiver process works in baseball. What does this mean? Is he still playing for the team?

If a team wants to make a trade after the July 31st deadline then they can only trade a player after they've gone through waivers. What revocable waivers does is let a team put a player on the waiver wire to see if a team makes a claim. If a team does, than they can pull him off waivers but it means any trade won't happen.

So, yes, for now he's still with the team. If he clears waivers though he might get dealt.

I feel like this opens the window a bit to him coming back next year because if he's traded and whoever he's traded to declines his option year he may be willing to come back at a reduced cost. I don't know if the Jays would be in on that but then again I really don't know what the Jays plans are long term.

Is it like hockey, like they can claim him for nothing in return?

I ask because why would there be a market to deal him after everyone passes on him for free?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on August 03, 2017, 05:31:55 PM
So I don't understand how the waiver process works in baseball. What does this mean? Is he still playing for the team?

If a team wants to make a trade after the July 31st deadline then they can only trade a player after they've gone through waivers. What revocable waivers does is let a team put a player on the waiver wire to see if a team makes a claim. If a team does, than they can pull him off waivers but it means any trade won't happen.

So, yes, for now he's still with the team. If he clears waivers though he might get dealt.

I feel like this opens the window a bit to him coming back next year because if he's traded and whoever he's traded to declines his option year he may be willing to come back at a reduced cost. I don't know if the Jays would be in on that but then again I really don't know what the Jays plans are long term.

Is it like hockey, like they can claim him for nothing in return?

I ask because why would there be a market to deal him after everyone passes on him for free?
Nobody is going to want to pay Bautista the $6 million remaining on his contract this year.  If the Jays manage to deal him they will have to eat up most of his remaining salary.  I would be shocked if someone wants Bautista for "free".  I can't see much coming back to the Jays in return.  I just hope this is a win-win scenario in the end.  Bautista deserves that much.  He has done a lot for this franchise.  I hope this waiver process was initiated with his blessing.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 03, 2017, 08:25:23 PM
Bautista has 10 and 5 rights so can't be traded unless he agrees to be dealt. I think the most realistic situation is that he is here until the end of the season and both sides part ways in the off-season.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on August 03, 2017, 08:50:43 PM
Is it like hockey, like they can claim him for nothing in return?

I ask because why would there be a market to deal him after everyone passes on him for free?

It's not really like in hockey, no. In this instance, the Jays have right to pull him off waivers if they can't come to terms on a trade with the team that's awarded the claim. The other team only gets him for free if the Jays decide being rid of the contract is their primary goal - which is unlikely here, as all they need to do to be rid of the contract at the end of the season is decline their side of the mutual option.

If he ends up on waivers again this month (also very unlikely), then he'd be free to whoever claims him, but, unless a team really wants to be rid of a player, that generally doesn't happen with guys who are in the lineup every game.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on August 04, 2017, 06:23:07 AM






Is it like hockey, like they can claim him for nothing in return?

I ask because why would there be a market to deal him after everyone passes on him for free?

Like Busta already explained, this process is a lot different than hockey. Jays traded Jeff Kent years ago in late august to acquire David Cone who, like Bautista, was put on waivers earlier in the month. So there can still be some substantial deals made, it just depends on the calibre of player traded I guess.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on August 04, 2017, 09:31:17 AM
Thanks guys...I forgot about the eating salary part of the equation.

That waivers process is quite different than hockey.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2017, 11:04:46 AM
Thanks guys...I forgot about the eating salary part of the equation.

That waivers process is quite different than hockey.

It's a weird August only thing. Otherwise, MLB doesn't really use waivers all that much during the season.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 04, 2017, 11:30:29 PM
Thanks guys...I forgot about the eating salary part of the equation.

That waivers process is quite different than hockey.

It's a weird August only thing. Otherwise, MLB doesn't really use waivers all that much during the season.

It's actually from August through to the end of the season. The difference being that players you trade for in August are post-season eligible, whereas the players you trade for in Sept/Oct aren't. Every once in a while you see a team make those later trades in an attempt to push them into the playoffs. The Jays did it years ago with Bud Black (current Rockies manager) and more recently with Darwin Barney.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 09, 2017, 06:26:01 PM
Tulo being moved to the 60-day DL effectively ends his season.
The Jays had better hope he finds a way to stay healthy or that contract will become an even larger issue going forward.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on August 10, 2017, 04:57:29 PM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/ex-files-morrow-good-place-grilli-mocked-rasmus-walks-away/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/ex-files-morrow-good-place-grilli-mocked-rasmus-walks-away/)

Morrow is killing it, loved that guy, glad he found his mojo again.

Dickey still munching up thoses innings.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 17, 2017, 04:31:45 AM
Down on the farm...

Blue Jays top 10 prospects: as of July 2017 -- Midseason minor league report

1. Vladimir Guerrero Jr., 3B
2. Bo Bichette, SS
3. Anthony Alford, OF
4. Lourdes Gurriel, SS
5. Max Pentecost, C/1B
6. Conner Greene, RHP
7. Justin Maese, RHP
8. Sean Reid-Foley, RHP
9. T.J. Zeuch, RHP
10. Logan Warmoth, SS

http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/2017-toronto-blue-jays-midseason-top-10-prospects/#vQxIgPLYo1UXBUVT.97 (http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/2017-toronto-blue-jays-midseason-top-10-prospects/#vQxIgPLYo1UXBUVT.97)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 19, 2017, 09:05:25 PM
Jays traded minor league RHP Osman Gutierrez to the Marlins for RHP Tom Koehler.
 
A bit of a curious move at this point in the season. It could be they aren't sold on Tepesch and Rowley as 2/5ths of the rotation the rest of the way, but they are stretching out Biagini in Buffalo and have Brett Anderson down there as well so not like they didn't already have options. Maybe Estrada still gets moved before the end of the month?

Koehler is arbitration eligible and not an UFA until 2019, so could be part of the Jays plans next year as a 5th starter or long man in the pen provided he puts up better numbers.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on August 20, 2017, 10:24:45 PM
Jays traded minor league RHP Osman Gutierrez to the Marlins for RHP Tom Koehler.
 
A bit of a curious move at this point in the season. It could be they aren't sold on Tepesch and Rowley as 2/5ths of the rotation the rest of the way, but they are stretching out Biagini in Buffalo and have Brett Anderson down there as well so not like they didn't already have options. Maybe Estrada still gets moved before the end of the month?

Koehler is arbitration eligible and not an UFA until 2019, so could be part of the Jays plans next year as a 5th starter or long man in the pen provided he puts up better numbers.

No on Estrada being moved. He was claimed on trade waivers and the Jays pulled him back. The only way he moves now is if the Jays are willing to let him go for nothing on normal waivers.

My guess is this move was move about a team on the fringes of the playoff race picking up an experienced depth option for minimal assets. Gutierrez doesn't likely have an MLB future, and while Koehler isn't exactly a great addition, he's a reasonable option as an injury replacement/swing man type.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 20, 2017, 11:34:58 PM
Jays traded minor league RHP Osman Gutierrez to the Marlins for RHP Tom Koehler.
 
A bit of a curious move at this point in the season. It could be they aren't sold on Tepesch and Rowley as 2/5ths of the rotation the rest of the way, but they are stretching out Biagini in Buffalo and have Brett Anderson down there as well so not like they didn't already have options. Maybe Estrada still gets moved before the end of the month?

Koehler is arbitration eligible and not an UFA until 2019, so could be part of the Jays plans next year as a 5th starter or long man in the pen provided he puts up better numbers.

No on Estrada being moved. He was claimed on trade waivers and the Jays pulled him back. The only way he moves now is if the Jays are willing to let him go for nothing on normal waivers.

My guess is this move was move about a team on the fringes of the playoff race picking up an experienced depth option for minimal assets. Gutierrez doesn't likely have an MLB future, and while Koehler isn't exactly a great addition, he's a reasonable option as an injury replacement/swing man type.

Yeah it had completely slipped my mind that he had been claimed by "a mystery team" and therefore only eligible to be dealt to that team. Speculation at the time was an AL East team, lot of people were guessing the Yankees...so not surprising that the Jays pulled him back.

The Jays have Koehler down with the Dunedin Jays at the moment. It could be they need a place to get him some work with Buffalo, New Hampshire and Lansing all failing to make the playoffs and their seasons ending shortly. That should hasten the September call-ups somewhat as well with nothing to play for in the minors.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 25, 2017, 05:05:48 AM
Players Weekend is upon us as many major leaguers will wear their nicknames on their jerseys.  Here are the Jays' jerseys:

(https://imageshack.com/i/pojZScUXj)


https://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2017/8/10/16123482/players-weekend-jerseys-revealed (https://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2017/8/10/16123482/players-weekend-jerseys-revealed)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 09, 2017, 07:19:14 AM
Roberto Osuna's pitches aren't quite what they used to be...



Year   Fourseam  Sinker  Change  Slider  Cutter
 2014     93.80         0.00     78.64    83.41     0.00 
 2015     96.37        95.57    83.13    88.70     0.00   
 2016     96.60        96.09    83.77    87.14    92.30
 2017     94.94        94.48    83.74    86.09    90.50


https://www.brooksbaseball.net/velo.php?player=532077&b_hand=-1&gFilt=&pFilt=FA&time=year&minmax=ci&var=mph&s_type=2&startDate=03/30/2007&endDate=09/09/2017 (https://www.brooksbaseball.net/velo.php?player=532077&b_hand=-1&gFilt=&pFilt=FA&time=year&minmax=ci&var=mph&s_type=2&startDate=03/30/2007&endDate=09/09/2017)


(via theathletic/brooksbaseball):
(https://imageshack.com/i/pn46oPGgp)

https://theathletic.com/96077/2017/09/08/jonah-keri-what-should-the-blue-jays-do-with-closer-roberto-osuna/ (https://theathletic.com/96077/2017/09/08/jonah-keri-what-should-the-blue-jays-do-with-closer-roberto-osuna/)



Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 20, 2017, 09:51:27 AM
Excited they have resigned Estrada to one year extension. The guys has been lights out except the first half of this year.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Arn on September 25, 2017, 04:27:21 AM
It's hard to judge much of what happens in September but both Hernandez and - to a lesser extent - Urena have shown a bit of something. Possible they'll both be on the roster next year?

Stroman has definitely show he's a top level ace pitcher as well.

But I reckon it'll be difficult for the Jays to bounce back towards the top of the division again next year...
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on September 25, 2017, 09:05:18 PM
It's hard to judge much of what happens in September but both Hernandez and - to a lesser extent - Urena have shown a bit of something. Possible they'll both be on the roster next year?

Stroman has definitely show he's a top level ace pitcher as well.

But I reckon it'll be difficult for the Jays to bounce back towards the top of the division again next year...
The Jays should be fine next season. They had extremely bad luck with injuries this season. They don't have a lot of holes in the lineup and they have quite a bit of money to spend during the off season. They could very easily get a top flight free agent, maybe even two of them. They need one outfielder to replace Bautista, however they do have Dalton Pompey and also Anthony Alford who they can use there. Hernandez looks ready to me for left field every day. Tulo and Travis should both be back. All that's left is one starting pitcher and they could realistically use Biagini for that. Even if they sign no one they will be semi competitive with the players they already have. This might sound crazy but I hope they sign Bautista as a fourth outfielder and also as a utility player. Barney will be leaving and I can't think of a better guy to keep around as a Blue Jay for life and then make him a coach.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 25, 2017, 09:24:50 PM
But I reckon it'll be difficult for the Jays to bounce back towards the top of the division again next year...

I think right now it's tough to say. The major questions facing the team have to do with aging/injuries. Can Tulo stay healthy as he declines? Can Martin bounce back at 35? Is Travis ever going to be able to stay on the field?

Then there are smaller questions. Is this year an outlier for Smoak? Is Morales really as bad as he's been? Which is the real Roberto Osuna? Who is the #4 starter?

I agree that it's unlikely that the Jays will rebound to a serious division contender but with the second wild card the way it is you can never rule out playoff contention.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Arn on September 27, 2017, 04:50:21 AM
Playoff contention would be good. I guess if you take out the horrific start the Jays had this year they're probably not far off being close to that second spot even.

Donaldson has been unreal since he got back from his injury, and Hernandez continues to impress. I guess you build your offence round Donaldson taking on the old Bautista role now?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 27, 2017, 10:58:40 AM
Donaldson has been unreal since he got back from his injury, and Hernandez continues to impress. I guess you build your offence round Donaldson taking on the old Bautista role now?

Maybe. But you have to remember that Donaldson is almost 32 and he's going to need a new contract soon.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on September 27, 2017, 11:36:21 AM
Playoff contention would be good. I guess if you take out the horrific start the Jays had this year they're probably not far off being close to that second spot even.

At their worst, the Jays were 11 games below .500 - and that was in late April. By the end of May, they had overcome most of that, and were only a game below. They're current 8 games below. Without the bad start, they'd probably be 4 games above .500 right now. Every AL playoff team is at least 9 games above. Even without the bad start, with the way they've played over the course of the season, the Jays would be on the outside looking in.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 28, 2017, 02:12:23 AM
Excited they have resigned Estrada to one year extension. The guys has been lights out except the first half of this year.

I've heard people say something similar but, aside from the fact that saying someone has been "lights out" except for half the year isn't saying much, it doesn't really jive with his numbers either. These are Estrada's ERAs by month:

April: 2.70
May: 3.49
June: 9.11
July: 6.48
August: 5.35
September: 3.48

First Half ERA: 5.15
Second Half ERA: 4.50

Now, you wrote your post before him getting rocked tonight when he was coming off three very good September starts but even then his year doesn't break down into first half good, second half bad. He was pretty good to start the year, terrible in the middle of the year and then rebounded a bit at the end.

That said, I think he was a little better this year than his numbers indicate. He suffered from an absurdly high opponents' BABIP in June which you'd want to ascribe at least a little bit to bad luck(although it was super low for most of September so...?) and some of his bad numbers have to be attributed to the crazy amount of HR hit this year.

That said I think we should adjust our expectations downward for him a little. Can a 35 year old Estrada be a valuable pitcher? I think so. Much more than a pretty good #3? Eh...
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 28, 2017, 05:02:56 PM
Tulo has yet to show up in TOR and now his D is slipping... yikes. What a monstrosity that contract has become. Complete different player in COL. I would like to think the Jays will better next year, younger and faster but I am worried about Travis/Tulo/Martin being able to contribute their share.

Love the pitching.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 28, 2017, 05:30:36 PM
Tulo has yet to show up in TOR and now his D is slipping... yikes. What a monstrosity that contract has become. Complete different player in COL. I would like to think the Jays will better next year, younger and faster but I am worried about Travis/Tulo/Martin being able to contribute their share.

Important to keep in mind that a pretty significant chunk of the difference between Tulowitzki in COL and here is park effects.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Arn on September 29, 2017, 03:58:08 PM
Talk from the Yankee TV announcers  (I had to watch the YES feed ugh) that Donaldson was potentially being traded to Cardinals over the winter.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 29, 2017, 04:01:07 PM
Talk from the Yankee TV announcers  (I had to watch the YES feed ugh) that Donaldson was potentially being traded to Cardinals over the winter.

It's not the worst idea in the world if, and this are two big ifs, you think Vlad Guerrero is a 3B long-term and you think he'll be ready sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 29, 2017, 04:10:11 PM
Talk from the Yankee TV announcers  (I had to watch the YES feed ugh) that Donaldson was potentially being traded to Cardinals over the winter.

It's not the worst idea in the world if, and this are two big ifs, you think Vlad Guerrero is a 3B long-term and you think he'll be ready sooner rather than later.
Jays owe it to their fans to try hard to resign him.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 29, 2017, 04:23:28 PM
Jays owe it to their fans to try hard to resign him.

I'm a Jays fan and if Guerrero is ready to take over mid-season next year or 2019 I'd actually rather they not sign a 32 year old Donaldson to a 20+ million dollar multi-year deal. Especially if there are options to put that money into the rotation.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on September 30, 2017, 09:33:48 PM
Jays owe it to their fans to try hard to resign him.

I'm a Jays fan and if Guerrero is ready to take over mid-season next year or 2019 I'd actually rather they not sign a 32 year old Donaldson to a 20+ million dollar multi-year deal. Especially if there are options to put that money into the rotation.
I agree. They had better get a king's ransom for Donaldson though. At least four high end prospects.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 01, 2017, 05:40:13 AM
I agree. They had better get a king's ransom for Donaldson though. At least four high end prospects.

So I did some thinking about this, to try and come up with a player who was similar in value to Donaldson who got dealt so as to gauge what he might fetch in a trade. I don't know that I came up with anything perfect but three deals came to mind that maybe give us a framework.

The first one was Chris Sale, probably because it's the most recent. Sale was a legit, #1 ace kind of guy traded in his prime and the White Sox got a pretty hefty return. They got one of the consensus top 10 prospects in baseball(Moncada), another top 100 guy(Michael Kopech) and then two lesser prospects.

That's not a great comp though. Sale is younger, has more team control and isn't actually as valuable on the field as Donaldson's been(19.5 bwar in his three best pre-trade years to Donaldson's 24.0). I also think teams tend to overpay for pitching.

So then I thought about Miguel Cabrera. That's a little more complicated though for a few reasons. Cabrera was significantly younger(25 to 31), Cabrera's value was artificially lower because he was playing out of position and the deal wasn't just for Cabrera but also had some salary throw-ins.  Anyways, the structure's not all that different. Cabrera went for a consensus top 10 prospect(Cameron Maybin), a consensus top 20 prospect(Andrew Miller) and then a couple other guys who could generously be called B or B- prospects. But again, that was a weirder, bigger trade.

So then I thought, maybe the best comp for Donaldson is Donaldson? True, Donaldson didn't have an MVP and the eye-popping stats when Oakland traded him but his value in his two best Oakland years(15 bwar) wasn't much lower than his two best Jays years(16.3 bWAR).

Anyways, when the Jays traded for Donaldson then they maybe got something closer to your idea of four high value guys although they didn't get the top end talent Chicago or the Marlins did in their deals. The Jays traded a top 100 guy in Barreto, a fringe-y top 100 guy in Nolin, a good prospect in Graveman and then whatever we want to call Brett Lawrie(a good ball player but someone who'd stalled a little and struggled with injuries).

So there's no great comps. My guess though, and this is just a guess, is that if you trade Donaldson you'll probably get something similar to what Sale and Cabrera got but with maybe less high end value. So maybe a top 20 prospect, another top 100ish guy and then a B- sort of guy.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on October 01, 2017, 08:30:40 AM
I agree. They had better get a king's ransom for Donaldson though. At least four high end prospects.

So I did some thinking about this, to try and come up with a player who was similar in value to Donaldson who got dealt so as to gauge what he might fetch in a trade. I don't know that I came up with anything perfect but three deals came to mind that maybe give us a framework.

The first one was Chris Sale, probably because it's the most recent. Sale was a legit, #1 ace kind of guy traded in his prime and the White Sox got a pretty hefty return. They got one of the consensus top 10 prospects in baseball(Moncada), another top 100 guy(Michael Kopech) and then two lesser prospects.

That's not a great comp though. Sale is younger, has more team control and isn't actually as valuable on the field as Donaldson's been(19.5 bwar in his three best pre-trade years to Donaldson's 24.0). I also think teams tend to overpay for pitching.

So then I thought about Miguel Cabrera. That's a little more complicated though for a few reasons. Cabrera was significantly younger(25 to 31), Cabrera's value was artificially lower because he was playing out of position and the deal wasn't just for Cabrera but also had some salary throw-ins.  Anyways, the structure's not all that different. Cabrera went for a consensus top 10 prospect(Cameron Maybin), a consensus top 20 prospect(Andrew Miller) and then a couple other guys who could generously be called B or B- prospects. But again, that was a weirder, bigger trade.

So then I thought, maybe the best comp for Donaldson is Donaldson? True, Donaldson didn't have an MVP and the eye-popping stats when Oakland traded him but his value in his two best Oakland years(15 bwar) wasn't much lower than his two best Jays years(16.3 bWAR).

Anyways, when the Jays traded for Donaldson then they maybe got something closer to your idea of four high value guys although they didn't get the top end talent Chicago or the Marlins did in their deals. The Jays traded a top 100 guy in Barreto, a fringe-y top 100 guy in Nolin, a good prospect in Graveman and then whatever we want to call Brett Lawrie(a good ball player but someone who'd stalled a little and struggled with injuries).

So there's no great comps. My guess though, and this is just a guess, is that if you trade Donaldson you'll probably get something similar to what Sale and Cabrera got but with maybe less high end value. So maybe a top 20 prospect, another top 100ish guy and then a B- sort of guy.

I think you have to look at it.  I don't think there is a reasonable package that gets Donaldson signed before the offseason next year.  You trade Donaldson and quite frankly could hope that he ends up going to free agency and considers returning as a free agent if you want him back that badly.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on October 01, 2017, 12:01:39 PM
Well, Donaldson is definitely going to be the player to watch during the off season.  Everything else for the Jays is going to be kind of "meh".  They need a starting pitcher, an outfielder, and maybe a utility player.  I don't expect them to make a flashy move, particularly if they're not signing Donaldson to an extension.  I really think the Jays need to take the opportunity to trade Donaldson for multiple prospects and do a mini rebuild.  Who knows, they might still be able to compete for a wild card slot next season that way, and then in 2019 they will hopefully be stacked with young controllable talent.  For the Jays to actually go for it next season they would have to commit close to $100M/year on multiple high end free agents.  I really don't think they would ever go that route.  I would be shocked.  The risk management runs with any type of rebuild is that Rogers Centre will be a ghost town.  We will see what happens.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on October 01, 2017, 05:57:16 PM
Wow, it's a real shocker, but Donaldson actually *wants* to remain a Blue Jay:

http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Baseball/MLB/Toronto/2017/10/01/22756040.html

This is the first time I have ever heard him actually say that.  It's probably posturing to try to get himself a better contract.  If he really likes it here so much he would have said something about it long ago.

We'll see what happens.  There are pros and cons to either option (signing him or trading him).  Trading him is risky in that you will probably never get a prospect in return that would develop into any type of comparable player.  However it saves a lot of money and it gives the Jays more options seeing as they have guys like Guerrero coming up in their system.  I would be shocked to see management commit long term to a player at this point.  The Jays' window will close after 2018.  I think they are going to keep Donaldson until at least the midpoint of the season to see where they are at in the standings.  If they are below .500 I think they will move him.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 01, 2017, 07:31:51 PM

So I did a little digging into Bautista's splits to see if there's any evidence at all that he could still be a productive hitter in a reduced role. I came away with a few things:

1) He was significantly better in the first half(.749 OPS) vs the second half(.577). That does at least hint at an older player who wore down over the course of the season.

2) He hit significantly better at night (.734) than he did in day games(.563)

3) It's a very small sample size but he hit well as a DH(.869)

4) He hit best when hitting 3rd in the lineup(.766)

So my guess is that on a one year deal, on a team with a good lineup, he'd probably be ok as a utility LF/1B/DH being used in the middle of the lineup. I don't think he can play every day though.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 02, 2017, 03:27:11 AM
Re: Bautista

His xwOBA (on-base-weighted average) described as a stat that measures a hitter's "launch angle and exit velocity" (instead of the boxscore stat results), - - - and one in which many GMs including the Jays' own Ross Atkins, believe it's a more accurate stat measurement - - show Bautista's decline.


(via theathletic)
Per breaking balls:
(https://imageshack.com/i/pniCPpkqp)

Per fastballs:
(https://imageshack.com/i/pots9aISp)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 02, 2017, 07:33:13 AM

Josh H. Christmas, stop posting the Athletic's stuff here.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 02, 2017, 07:52:36 AM
Alright, for Just' N Sake, I shall.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 02, 2017, 08:03:18 AM




What are these showing?  Basically Bautista's swings & misses from 2015 (first heatmap photo) to 2017 (last heatmap photo).
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Arn on October 02, 2017, 10:57:16 AM
11 minutes  ;D



(I Know this is a publicly available tweet, but still, amusing)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on October 02, 2017, 06:14:16 PM
Talk from the Yankee TV announcers  (I had to watch the YES feed ugh) that Donaldson was potentially being traded to Cardinals over the winter.

It's not the worst idea in the world if, and this are two big ifs, you think Vlad Guerrero is a 3B long-term and you think he'll be ready sooner rather than later.

From what I've heard, which is mostly hearsay, we shouldn't count on him ability to play 3B at the major league level.

Also, if he does end up at 3B in a few years, JD might be able to take over SS from after Tulo's contract expires.

Or if JD's defense regresses, he could move to 1st/DH.

There could be ways to have both Vlad and JD in the lineup, which could be very good especially if Bichette's bat plays at this level too.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 03, 2017, 09:05:50 PM
From what I've heard, which is mostly hearsay, we shouldn't count on him ability to play 3B at the major league level.

Also, if he does end up at 3B in a few years, JD might be able to take over SS from after Tulo's contract expires.

Or if JD's defense regresses, he could move to 1st/DH.

There could be ways to have both Vlad and JD in the lineup, which could be very good especially if Bichette's bat plays at this level too.

Outside of being very skeptical that a 34 year old Donaldson would handle a move to SS well, I don't disagree with anything here. The Jays certainly don't have to trade Donaldson and keeping him around would be good strictly in terms of how good a ball player he is.

But the question then becomes can you sign him to the reported 5 year/150 million deal that's rumoured to be the starting point? Does that significantly hinder your ability to add elsewhere?

Maybe more to the point, if you sign that deal and benefit from the first few years of it how moveable is it if you eventually think you need to reset?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: disco on October 04, 2017, 05:31:50 AM
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZzBvg0F8qu/?taken-by=timandsid
Never forget...
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 05, 2017, 08:20:42 AM
That definitely has to rank alongside Joe Carter's  World Series winning home run.

Vintage Jose.  Encapsulated everything the haters 'hated' him for and the fans 'loved' him for. 

Exactly right...never forget.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on November 20, 2017, 05:28:45 PM
Rob Refsnyder has been claimed off waivers by the Indians.
Not a bad thing, didn't work out in Toronto.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on November 20, 2017, 06:23:09 PM
Jays acquire middle infielder Gift Ngoepe from the Pirates for a PTBNL or cash. Ngoepe is the 2nd African-born player in MLB history, first in over a century.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on December 01, 2017, 11:03:16 PM

Is this good?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 01, 2017, 11:20:49 PM
Is this good?

If nothing else it's a pretty solid sign that there are doubts about Tulo's ability to be an everyday SS.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on December 02, 2017, 09:58:01 AM
Diaz is solid insurance with the health issues plaguing Tulo and Travis. We saw last year that middle infield was a bit of a black hole production-wise at the plate after they went down with injuries.

The numbers that Diaz will put up with his bat should make up for what is lost defensively. It will be interesting to see where he fits into the order. St. Louis had him in the 2 spot quite a bit and the Jays definitely need to find a couple guys at the top of the order that can get on base and set the table for the big bats.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on December 02, 2017, 03:45:31 PM
The real problem for the Jays will be when both Tulo and Travis go down at the same time.  Keeping Goins would have been a nice insurance policy.

Actually what I would do if I were Atkins is trade Morales for a bag of pucks, then make Travis the DH.  That will help keep him on the field and keep his bat in the lineup.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 03, 2017, 08:01:38 AM
There is one Blue Jay who is upset on the non-tender to Goins:

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on December 03, 2017, 08:43:53 AM
There is one Blue Jay who is upset on the non-tender to Goins:


I saw this yesterday and I am still unable to figure out whether Stroman is upset that HE only found out via twitter or that Goins only found out via twitter. It has to be the latter, right?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on December 03, 2017, 09:04:36 AM
There is one Blue Jay who is upset on the non-tender to Goins:


I saw this yesterday and I am still unable to figure out whether Stroman is upset that HE only found out via twitter or that Goins only found out via twitter. It has to be the latter, right?

Nope.  For all Stroman's talent, he's a pretty big diva.  He holds grudges against reporters who question him.  He is in a big pissing match with Sanchez.  Stroman's one of those guys who blows up over a lot of little stuff.

As for moving on from Goins, he's not good so it isn't a big deal but I think it's important to remember that they replaced him with Gift Ngoepe.  A guy who is good defensively (like Goins) and is actually worse offensively.  So I'm not exactly sure that I understand the move from an organizational standpoint.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 03, 2017, 09:53:36 AM
As for moving on from Goins, he's not good so it isn't a big deal but I think it's important to remember that they replaced him with Gift Ngoepe.  A guy who is good defensively (like Goins) and is actually worse offensively.  So I'm not exactly sure that I understand the move from an organizational standpoint.

I think it makes sense if you consider that with Travis, Tulo and Diaz around ideally Goins(or whoever) wouldn't even be on the big league club next year. So how much value does Goins have as a 30 year old AAA player?

And, yeah, the idea that you won't need a 4th middle infielder next year with the injury issues is pretty unlikely but if you do...Goins has been sub-replacement level the last two years. So if you do need a 4th middle infielder for any real playing time you probably can go out and get someone comparable for nothing so it seems like you're not really gaining or losing anything talent wise and getting a little younger.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 03, 2017, 11:57:47 AM
I think it makes sense if you consider that with Travis, Tulo and Diaz around ideally Goins(or whoever) wouldn't even be on the big league club next year. So how much value does Goins have as a 30 year old AAA player?

Agreed. With Diaz in the fold, instead of a 4th middle infielder, the Jays need a utility player with more utility than Goins.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on December 03, 2017, 09:05:16 PM
I think it makes sense if you consider that with Travis, Tulo and Diaz around ideally Goins(or whoever) wouldn't even be on the big league club next year. So how much value does Goins have as a 30 year old AAA player?

Agreed. With Diaz in the fold, instead of a 4th middle infielder, the Jays need a utility player with more utility than Goins.
The Jays already have Pearce for that.  What they need now is pitching and an outfielder.  I would also like a better DH than Morales.  I really think Travis should be the DH, in which case they should have kept Goins as their backup infielder, and just let Diaz play second base every day.

Morales should be traded.  The Jays will have to pay a portion of his salary to get rid of him but it will be worth it.

If the Jays can get a starting pitcher like Arrieta and a decent outfielder, they will have a legitimate shot at the playoffs.  From there who knows.  I'm sure they will keep Donaldson until the deadline and then make a decision.  They could wind up as buyers and then try to make another run like what AA did a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 05, 2017, 05:13:14 AM
I really think Travis should be the DH, in which case they should have kept Goins as their backup infielder, and just let Diaz play second base every day.

The thing about that, other than the fact that Goins is still eminently replaceable, is that if you move Travis to DH you might keep him healthy but his bat as a DH is much less valuable than it is as a reasonably defensively competent 2B. Consider that at 2.9 Travis' bWAR in 100 games in 2016 was just as valuable as Edwin Encarnacion's whole season last year hitting 38 homeruns and getting on base at a .377 clip.

So it's not the wrong move necessarily but I honestly think that if the team has even a shot at real playoff noise then they're going to need to hit the jackpot on some moves and hoping Travis can stay healthy at 2B might be one of those.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 06, 2017, 05:19:40 PM
Though not confirmed in earnest,  there is speculation that Rogers Communications (the owners of the Blue Jays) may sell it's interest in the team.

The company, in a bid to shed debt, free up much-needed capital, and a general change in it's investment infrastructure, could net an estimated $1.65B in a deal to divest itself of the baseball franchise,  but would still pursue a sports programming deal.  Rogers points to their 37.5% stake in MLSE as an example of it's broadcast rights.

For more on this story:
https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/12/06/why-a-blue-jays-sale-may-make-sense-for-rogers.html (https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/12/06/why-a-blue-jays-sale-may-make-sense-for-rogers.html)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on December 09, 2017, 04:54:54 PM
Stanton to the Yankees.  With Ohtani going to the Angels thatís going to make the playoffs pretty unlikely for the Jays.  Maybe time to reconsider trading Donaldson at this point.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on December 09, 2017, 09:11:19 PM
Stanton to the Yankees.  With Ohtani going to the Angels thatís going to make the playoffs pretty unlikely for the Jays.  Maybe time to reconsider trading Donaldson at this point.
Things are up in the air right now with the Jays.  They can go one of two ways, and both choices have serious consequences for the long term future of the team.  They can go for it now by adding a couple of pieces, maybe Arrieta and a good outfielder.  Or, as you say, they can trade Donaldson and rebuild.  If they go for it and fail that could be devastating for the team.  Actually even if they load up I don't think they can beat the Yankees.  So the rebuild option looks safer, particularly if Rogers wants to sell the team.  The real wild card in all this is the fans.  If they rebuild they may lose a lot of fan support, and that has its on repercussions.  I know I wouldn't want to be Atkins or Shapiro right now.  They are in an extremely difficult situation.  I hope they are able to do a decent job.  This could be a very interesting off season.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 11, 2017, 11:20:18 AM
Things are up in the air right now with the Jays.  They can go one of two ways, and both choices have serious consequences for the long term future of the team.  They can go for it now by adding a couple of pieces, maybe Arrieta and a good outfielder.  Or, as you say, they can trade Donaldson and rebuild.  If they go for it and fail that could be devastating for the team.  Actually even if they load up I don't think they can beat the Yankees.  So the rebuild option looks safer, particularly if Rogers wants to sell the team.  The real wild card in all this is the fans.  If they rebuild they may lose a lot of fan support, and that has its on repercussions.  I know I wouldn't want to be Atkins or Shapiro right now.  They are in an extremely difficult situation.  I hope they are able to do a decent job.  This could be a very interesting off season.

That's the crux of the situation, really. At this point, you have to look at what the most realistic scenario is for the next 3-5 years. Do they have a realistic shot at a title? I'd say no. I think that window closed after the 2016 season, and their current core players are already mostly into their 30s. The immediate future does not look particularly bright, and they're not a particularly appealing destination for free agents right now (especially starting pitchers - a lot of guys wouldn't want to face that Yankees' lineup multiple times a season right now, and I can't blame them). 3-5 years from now? The Yankees will be in the position the Jays are now, and, if the rebuild starts in earnest now, the Jays should should have some quality pieces hitting the MLB roster. Maybe a full-on scorched earth tear down is not the right play (as guys like Stroman, Sanchez, etc., could still be solid contributors in 3 years), but moving out some of the older, more expensive pieces - especially high value guys like Donaldson - is the smarter move right now.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 11, 2017, 05:42:52 PM
Things are up in the air right now with the Jays.  They can go one of two ways, and both choices have serious consequences for the long term future of the team.  They can go for it now by adding a couple of pieces, maybe Arrieta and a good outfielder.  Or, as you say, they can trade Donaldson and rebuild.  If they go for it and fail that could be devastating for the team.  Actually even if they load up I don't think they can beat the Yankees.  So the rebuild option looks safer, particularly if Rogers wants to sell the team.  The real wild card in all this is the fans.  If they rebuild they may lose a lot of fan support, and that has its on repercussions.  I know I wouldn't want to be Atkins or Shapiro right now.  They are in an extremely difficult situation.  I hope they are able to do a decent job.  This could be a very interesting off season.

That's the crux of the situation, really. At this point, you have to look at what the most realistic scenario is for the next 3-5 years. Do they have a realistic shot at a title? I'd say no. I think that window closed after the 2016 season, and their current core players are already mostly into their 30s. The immediate future does not look particularly bright, and they're not a particularly appealing destination for free agents right now (especially starting pitchers - a lot of guys wouldn't want to face that Yankees' lineup multiple times a season right now, and I can't blame them). 3-5 years from now? The Yankees will be in the position the Jays are now, and, if the rebuild starts in earnest now, the Jays should should have some quality pieces hitting the MLB roster. Maybe a full-on scorched earth tear down is not the right play (as guys like Stroman, Sanchez, etc., could still be solid contributors in 3 years), but moving out some of the older, more expensive pieces - especially high value guys like Donaldson - is the smarter move right now.


I agree here.  Doing things in half-measures isn't going to get the Jays very far, either in the near nor long-term.  Success requires careful planning, vision, and foresight, something this team needs to begin gaining some ground on if it even hopes to be a contender once again in the near future.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on December 13, 2017, 11:25:36 AM
They need to blow it up and rebuild/retool.

They have some young pieces that can be part of a great team in 2/3 years, but for now, guys like Donaldson need to go, the roster as presently constructed has no shot at winning a championship and close to no shot at the playoffs.

Get what you can for guys 28+ and see what you have in your farm system when the dust settles.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on December 13, 2017, 05:58:31 PM
They need to blow it up and rebuild/retool.

They have some young pieces that can be part of a great team in 2/3 years, but for now, guys like Donaldson need to go, the roster as presently constructed has no shot at winning a championship and close to no shot at the playoffs.

Get what you can for guys 28+ and see what you have in your farm system when the dust settles.
Shapiro said today that the Blue Jays should have done a rebuild a year ago but they were afraid of what it would do to the fan base.  So take that for what it's worth.  I'm not sure what to read into it.  Either he's saying that they're still too afraid to do the rebuild, or else that it's even more urgent now seeing as they should have done it already.  It's kind of nebulous.  I'm sure that was intentional on Shapiro's behalf.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Arn on December 13, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
Rumours that they're talking to Sabbathia. Not sure what hints that gives at rebuild or no
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 13, 2017, 06:09:32 PM

My love of saying I told you so aside, I did say all this when they made those moves in the summer of 2015 and when AA left. The thing is now they should be generating some pitching/roster prospects so that hopefully you can build a real organization around guys like Guerrero.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on December 13, 2017, 06:39:26 PM
Well, the bigger problem is that Shapiro and Atkins feel that they can't do their best job as president and GM without being affected by outside influences.  Shapiro basically came out and said today that he hasn't been making decisions in the absolute best interests of the team.  He has been allowing outside influences (the fanbase and possibly ownership also) to cloud his judgement.  We all know what this BS did to the Leafs for all those years.  This could be the start of the dark ages for the Blue Jays, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 13, 2017, 06:51:41 PM
Well, the bigger problem is that Shapiro and Atkins feel that they can't do their best job as president and GM without being affected by outside influences.  Shapiro basically came out and said today that he hasn't been making decisions in the absolute best interests of the team.  He has been allowing outside influences (the fanbase and possibly ownership also) to cloud his judgement.  We all know what this BS did to the Leafs for all those years.  This could be the start of the dark ages for the Blue Jays, unfortunately.

I don't really think "ownership" qualifies as an outside interest. Sports teams are businesses, businesses are into making money. For years the Leafs were lazy because of their belief that they would be profitable no matter what. Other teams don't have that luxury and so, yes, they make decisions with one eye on the bottom line. That's not really a problem to be solved and it's not unique to the Jays.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on December 14, 2017, 06:43:27 PM
My point is that Atkins and Shapiro don't have autonomy in a true sense. It's a big problem IMO.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on December 24, 2017, 09:41:41 AM
It really seems like management is doing nothing.  I really thought we would hear something by now.  Apathy is going to get the Jays nowhere.  They either need to go for it or rebuild.  Standing pat with their current roster when then came in last place last season is a recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: The Empire on December 24, 2017, 12:45:50 PM
The best we can hope for in 2018 is the pitching staff remains healthy, Travis(best pure hitter on the team) and Tulo come back healthy and remain that way the entire season,  possibly sign JB to a 1 year incentive laden contract he might be good for 20 homers and a .750+ OPS.  That would put us in contention for a wild card spot.  We are better than the Rays and the Orioles
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 24, 2017, 01:13:38 PM
It really seems like management is doing nothing.  I really thought we would hear something by now.  Apathy is going to get the Jays nowhere.  They either need to go for it or rebuild.  Standing pat with their current roster when then came in last place last season is a recipe for disaster.

I agree. Doing nothing seems the worst of all of the options.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 24, 2017, 01:15:55 PM
The best we can hope for in 2018 is the pitching staff remains healthy, Travis(best pure hitter on the team) and Tulo come back healthy and remain that way the entire season,  possibly sign JB to a 1 year incentive laden contract he might be good for 20 homers and a .750+ OPS.  That would put us in contention for a wild card spot.  We are better than the Rays and the Orioles

The issue for the WC isn't likely to be the Rays or Orioles. It'll be being better than teams like the Angels, Twins and Red Sox.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on December 24, 2017, 01:47:25 PM
It really seems like management is doing nothing.  I really thought we would hear something by now.  Apathy is going to get the Jays nowhere.  They either need to go for it or rebuild.  Standing pat with their current roster when then came in last place last season is a recipe for disaster.

Pardon moi?  ;D

(https://ibin.co/3loxIaiJWD6N.png)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: The Empire on December 25, 2017, 12:55:47 PM
The best we can hope for in 2018 is the pitching staff remains healthy, Travis(best pure hitter on the team) and Tulo come back healthy and remain that way the entire season,  possibly sign JB to a 1 year incentive laden contract he might be good for 20 homers and a .750+ OPS.  That would put us in contention for a wild card spot.  We are better than the Rays and the Orioles

The issue for the WC isn't likely to be the Rays or Orioles. It'll be being better than teams like the Angels, Twins and Red Sox.

Not going to win without pitching and we have a much better staff than both the Angles(even with Otani) and the Twins.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 25, 2017, 08:34:18 PM
Not going to win without pitching and we have a much better staff than both the Angles(even with Otani) and the Twins.

The Angels had a lower team ERA than the Jays did last year and the Twins' bad pitching didn't stop them from winning 85 games last year.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on December 25, 2017, 08:40:18 PM
Not going to win without pitching and we have a much better staff than both the Angles(even with Otani) and the Twins.

The Angels had a lower team ERA than the Jays did last year and the Twins' bad pitching didn't stop them from winning 85 games last year.
You're forgetting about Aaron Sanchez.

If they can stay healthy the Blue Jays have an excellent pitching staff, including the bullpen.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 25, 2017, 09:36:42 PM
You're forgetting about Aaron Sanchez.

I'm not forgetting him. I'm just saying that the Angels had a lower ERA than the Jays did last year. Yes, the Jays will hopefully have a healthy Sanchez and that will presumably positively affect the Jays ERA but the Angels will have Ohtani which will presumably do the same for them. They also might have a healthy Garrett Richards. And so on and so forth.

So will the Jays have a lower ERA than the Angels next year? Maybe but it's far from a sure thing.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 25, 2017, 10:07:07 PM
the Twins' bad pitching didn't stop them from winning 85 games last year.

Yeah. The Twins have the distinct advantage of playing in the AL Central, so, whatever talent advantages the Jays may have are more than made up for by how much easier Minnesota's schedule is going to be.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on December 26, 2017, 02:11:08 PM
You're forgetting about Aaron Sanchez.

I'm not forgetting him. I'm just saying that the Angels had a lower ERA than the Jays did last year. Yes, the Jays will hopefully have a healthy Sanchez and that will presumably positively affect the Jays ERA but the Angels will have Ohtani which will presumably do the same for them. They also might have a healthy Garrett Richards. And so on and so forth.

So will the Jays have a lower ERA than the Angels next year? Maybe but it's far from a sure thing.
Well the thing is, even if everything does go right and the Jays can claim the wild card, they will still have to beat the Yankees.  Picture Judge and Stanton hitting back to back in the Yankees lineup.  They are going to light it up.  I just can't see the Jays beating the Yankees this year in any capacity.  Toronto fans aren't stupid, either.  The fans are going to be extremely upset if they parade the same team out there as they had last season and they lose again.  The fans would tolerate a full and proper rebuild better than that.  If they try to scramble and rebuild at the end of next season I don't think they will be able to do it properly.  There's just not enough time.  I guess they could get something at the trade deadline for Donaldson.  Beyond him I'm not too sure though.  We gave up a top pitching prospect for each deadline piece that we acquired.

It's really hard for us to know at this point what is really going on.  Perhaps the Cardinals just aren't offering anything of significance for Donaldson.

I think the monkey wrench in all of this is management's insistence that they get major league talent *and* prospects for Donaldon.  They would do better by only acquiring prospects and then just tank.  The Jays aren't going to win next season.  They should stop pretending otherwise.  Like I said, the fans aren't stupid.  Actually Toronto fans are probably some of the smartest fans in the whole league.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on December 26, 2017, 04:09:15 PM
Well the thing is, even if everything does go right and the Jays can claim the wild card, they will still have to beat the Yankees.  Picture Judge and Stanton hitting back to back in the Yankees lineup.  They are going to light it up.  I just can't see the Jays beating the Yankees this year in any capacity.  Toronto fans aren't stupid, either.  The fans are going to be extremely upset if they parade the same team out there as they had last season and they lose again.  The fans would tolerate a full and proper rebuild better than that.  If they try to scramble and rebuild at the end of next season I don't think they will be able to do it properly.  There's just not enough time.  I guess they could get something at the trade deadline for Donaldson.  Beyond him I'm not too sure though.  We gave up a top pitching prospect for each deadline piece that we acquired.

I more or less agree with you strategically. Where I don't necessarily agree with you is with the idea of fans as a monolith in anyway or another. Yes, some fans will not be happy with the Jays even if they make a wild card because they have a very small chance of then making real noise in the playoffs and they'll have lost a year in what would be a rebuild.

That said, there are a lot of casual fans who would just be happy with meaningful September baseball. Maybe a little bit of scoreboard watching. You or I could say that those fans are wrong or misguided if we want but there is a large segment of the ticket buying public who really don't think about things like long-term planning or a team's prospect base. Heck, a lot of fans are kids and try explaining a long term rebuild to someone under the age of 12 and watch their eyes glaze over.

So, again, I think you're right in terms of what strategy would bring the team to a state where they would be real championship contenders in the least amount of rebuilding time I don't necessarily agree that "the fans" wouldn't give a range of opinions on it. We can not like Rogers making moves with an eye on the budget sheet but we should at least be fair with what those costs are. If the Jays tank it, and really tank, and lose 90-95 games next year then attendance and viewership will sink and significantly so.

I think the monkey wrench in all of this is management's insistence that they get major league talent *and* prospects for Donaldon.

That depends on what they mean there. I think, for the purposes of tanking and rebuilding, that a talented 21 or 22 year old player is significantly more valuable than a prospect just because you have a pretty good idea that someone of value will still be around when the team is competing again but probably won't be good enough to win many games on their own.

A good example of this is the Astros. Back when they were losing 100 games a year they weren't devoid of young MLB talent. They still had guys like Altuve and Keuchel around in pre-superstar mode(or in Keuchel's case just being outright bad). If that's the sort of "major league talent" the Jays are looking to add for Donaldson I think that's a good idea.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on December 26, 2017, 04:15:01 PM
Fair enough.  We'll see what happens.  If management does nothing it's going to be hard to be excited about the team for 2018.  Even if they trade Donaldson and rebuild I would still want to watch out of interest.  Actually I would find that more interesting than watching the same team as we saw last season.  If they do that I will find it frustrating to watch.  Seeing Tulo and Travis getting injured is going to be hard to watch.  Same goes for Martin and any of the pitching staff.  And thinking that those guys are not going to be injured is a pipe dream.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 06, 2018, 04:15:20 PM

The Jays have apparently traded for Yangervis Solarte from San Diego.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on January 06, 2018, 04:23:48 PM
Just looking Solarte up now. Switch hitter, 2b/3b, a couple of 2+ WAR seasons followed by a 1+ last year. Seems like a pretty nice piece (depending on the price).

Solarte/Diaz is a pretty nice upgrade on Goins/Barney.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on January 06, 2018, 04:42:32 PM
Olivires was the Jays 18th ranked prospect give or take.  Hit 17 home runs last year as a 21 year old prospect in A ball.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on January 06, 2018, 05:52:45 PM
Solarte/Diaz is a pretty nice upgrade on Goins/Barney.

Definitely an upgrade at the plate. Not so much defensively, but, really, moving on from Goins was almost certainly going to be a drop off with the glove.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on January 06, 2018, 07:42:57 PM
I like this trade.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on January 15, 2018, 09:32:51 PM
The Jays just signed Curtis Granderson to a one year deal worth $5 million.  I can't say I understand this one.  He has a .212 batting average.  This is a huge slap in the face to Jose Bautista.  This is not how the franchise should be treating a franchise icon like Bautista.  Very sad.  I certainly hope this is not the only outfielder they will get.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on January 15, 2018, 09:44:25 PM
The Jays just signed Curtis Granderson to a one year deal worth $5 million.  I can't say I understand this one.  He has a .212 batting average.  This is a huge slap in the face to Jose Bautista.  This is not how the franchise should be treating a franchise icon like Bautista.  Very sad.  I certainly hope this is not the only outfielder they will get.

Batting average? Cute.

Last season, Granderson was at least a roughly average bat: OPS of .775, OPS+ of 103, and WAR of 1.5. Bautista, on the other hand: OPS .674, OPS+ 76, and WAR -1.7.

Granderson may not be elite or anything, but, at this point, he's an upgrade on Bautista in basically every way.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on January 15, 2018, 10:10:08 PM
Granderson will be turning 37, but at this point he is better than Bautista and if nothing else he is a lefty bat which the Jays needed.
Jays also need bats at the top of the order and Granderson hit lead-off for the Mets in 30 games last year.
It's a 1 year deal so I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over it.
I still think the Jays add another OF before the season starts.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 16, 2018, 02:31:22 AM
The Granderson signing is pending a physical.

Granderson will platoon in RF and with Steve Pearce in LF & Pillar in CF, it does make for a reasonable trio of arms & legs.  However, according to MLB sources, the Jays were interested in Lorenzo Cain prior to the Granderson signing.
Their interest in Cain is not completely out of the woods yet.

Pearce/Pillar/Granderson + Cain. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on January 16, 2018, 02:48:42 AM
Granderson will be turning 37, but at this point he is better than Bautista and if nothing else he is a lefty bat which the Jays needed.
Jays also need bats at the top of the order and Granderson hit lead-off for the Mets in 30 games last year.
It's a 1 year deal so I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over it.
I still think the Jays add another OF before the season starts.

I doubt it.   They have Pillar, Pearce, Carrera, Granderson, Hernandez, Pompey now as outfield candidates.  I think this was just cheap addition.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on January 16, 2018, 08:41:35 AM
Hope Rogers likes empty seats because that's what there going to get with complete unwillingness to do anything meaningful. Trade Donaldson and get on with it because I place the possibility of Jays signing him to near what he wants/deserves at 0%.

I guess I'm frustrated we are headed for a rebuild, Tulo sucks, Martin's to old, bullpen is awful, old vet signing don't excite me. I wish it was possible to reward the fans for their loyalty but realistically you probably can't with this group.

The starters/closer are stellar, you can't build around that?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 16, 2018, 08:58:55 PM
Hope Rogers likes empty seats because that's what there going to get with complete unwillingness to do anything meaningful. Trade Donaldson and get on with it because I place the possibility of Jays signing him to near what he wants/deserves at 0%.

I guess I'm frustrated we are headed for a rebuild, Tulo sucks, Martin's to old, bullpen is awful, old vet signing don't excite me. I wish it was possible to reward the fans for their loyalty but realistically you probably can't with this group.

The starters/closer are stellar, you can't build around that?

Realistically the Jays were always going to be bad next year. They don't have the prospect depth to make immediate impact trades and they don't have the cap flexibility to just sign FA's until they're in contention(think Tulo sucks if you want, the Jays still have to pay him).

I don't know what fans might have expected. When AA went all in and impatiently tried to win on the backs of guys like Tulo and Price did Fans think the team would be good forever? That trading away top prospects by the barrel had no future impact? Unless you said those moves had real downside at the time, and believe me some people did, then for fans to turn around and be upset when the bill is due doesn't really seem like loyalty worth rewarding.

Ultimately, the more I think about it the more I think a holding pattern might be the best move. They don't have the chips to push in but they also have guys like Stroman and Sanchez that they don't want to alienate by stripping the rest of the team for parts.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TML fan on January 17, 2018, 12:35:52 AM
I was good with going all in to try to win when they did. I think it was worth it, even without the desired result. I'd be all for a rebuild at this point but I see the logic in not alienating their young pitchers.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: KW Sluggo on January 19, 2018, 08:27:41 PM
Granderson will be turning 37, but at this point he is better than Bautista and if nothing else he is a lefty bat which the Jays needed.
Jays also need bats at the top of the order and Granderson hit lead-off for the Mets in 30 games last year.
It's a 1 year deal so I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over it.
I still think the Jays add another OF before the season starts.

I will give you the left handed bat as well as the addition of another OF, which they just did in a trade with St. Louis for Grichuk, but otherwise I see no particular upgrade in having Granderson over Bautista, subject to the proviso that Jose would come back for $5M.

As for Grichuk, a batting average of .238 does not impress me.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on January 19, 2018, 09:09:19 PM
I will give you the left handed bat as well as the addition of another OF, which they just did in a trade with St. Louis for Grichuk, but otherwise I see no particular upgrade in having Granderson over Bautista, subject to the proviso that Jose would come back for $5M.

As for Grichuk, a batting average of .238 does not impress me.

So, you're just going to ignore that he's a significant defensive upgrade, and virtually every offensive metric had him as substantially more valuable than Bautista this past season?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on January 20, 2018, 04:22:16 PM
So what do you guys think of the Randal Grichuk trade?  I like it personally.  Now the Jays actually have infield and outfield depth.  Now what they desperately need is a backup catcher, and then some more pitching help if they have any money left.  I'm impressed with what management has done with a very limited budget.  The Jays will definitely be more competitive this season, which is impressive because their competitive window has been closing hard lately.  They have a half decent shot at a wild card spot now.  Not too bad at all.  Things are looking like they will remain a decent team for years to come also.  I haven't been a big fan of Atkins and Shapiro but I'm coming around.  We'll see what else they can do before spring training starts.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 27, 2018, 01:52:00 AM
Someone trying to sound optimistic...


Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on January 27, 2018, 11:14:43 AM
Are people seriously mad the Jays didn't pick up Yelich and/or Cain?

Yelich would cost Vlad Jr + 2-3 more top prospects. Cain is 32 when the season starts and signed 5 years @ 80 million.

Kinda no brainer non-deals, imo at least.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on January 27, 2018, 12:21:27 PM
Are people seriously mad the Jays didn't pick up Yelich and/or Cain?

Yelich would cost Vlad Jr + 2-3 more top prospects. Cain is 32 when the season starts and signed 5 years @ 80 million.

Kinda no brainer non-deals, imo at least.

I would have been fine with the 5 years for Cain.  37 isn't the end of the world if the assumption is you are legitimately trying to win today and tomorrow.  If the argument is to be not bad enough to win 50 games this year but not really try and win then sure, don't spend the money and have it sunk into the payroll for when Bo/Vlad/Alford come up.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 27, 2018, 01:11:57 PM
Are people seriously mad the Jays didn't pick up Yelich and/or Cain?

Yelich would cost Vlad Jr + 2-3 more top prospects. Cain is 32 when the season starts and signed 5 years @ 80 million.

Kinda no brainer non-deals, imo at least.

 In my experience as a Leafs fan when fans are generally frustrated with the team's inability or unwillingness to make big moves they'll react badly to any big move made by anyone else with out a lot of regard to the particular feasibility or wisdom of the moves.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on January 27, 2018, 01:51:22 PM
Are people seriously mad the Jays didn't pick up Yelich and/or Cain?

Yelich would cost Vlad Jr + 2-3 more top prospects. Cain is 32 when the season starts and signed 5 years @ 80 million.

Kinda no brainer non-deals, imo at least.

 In my experience as a Leafs fan when fans are generally frustrated with the team's inability or unwillingness to make big moves they'll react badly to any big move made by anyone else with out a lot of regard to the particular feasibility or wisdom of the moves.

I think you can consider moving Bo Bichete as a potentially reasonable move simply because his swing is so ugly that there is potential for it to go awry.  I don't think there is a deal on the market that I would really want to move Vlad for at this point.  He has the range to hit like his Dad but he is somewhat patient at the plate.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 15, 2018, 07:21:21 PM

The Jays have apparently signed Jaime Garcia to round out the rotation. Coming off a couple of bad years but he's been an effective starter before and his career numbers are pretty good.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on February 15, 2018, 07:57:54 PM
Jaime Garcia signing as the Jays 5th starter will keep Biagini in the pen and that is a good thing.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on February 15, 2018, 08:08:22 PM
The Jays have apparently signed Jaime Garcia to round out the rotation. Coming off a couple of bad years but he's been an effective starter before and his career numbers are pretty good.

Solid back of the rotation pickup.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Arn on February 16, 2018, 06:01:14 AM
With the roster tweaks they've made, and if a couple of the starting pitchers remain healthy/rebound I actually think that wild card spot is possibly obtainable.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 16, 2018, 09:39:47 PM
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22469376/marcus-stroman-angry-toronto-blue-jays-negativity-arbitration (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22469376/marcus-stroman-angry-toronto-blue-jays-negativity-arbitration)

Well that seems like a smart thing to do to save 400 thousand bucks.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on February 17, 2018, 06:19:46 AM
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22469376/marcus-stroman-angry-toronto-blue-jays-negativity-arbitration (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22469376/marcus-stroman-angry-toronto-blue-jays-negativity-arbitration)

Well that seems like a smart thing to do to save 400 thousand bucks.

I donít know, it seems like Stroman has some paper thin skin and seems to lash out on Twitter over a lot of stuff. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 17, 2018, 07:11:40 AM
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22469376/marcus-stroman-angry-toronto-blue-jays-negativity-arbitration (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22469376/marcus-stroman-angry-toronto-blue-jays-negativity-arbitration)

Well that seems like a smart thing to do to save 400 thousand bucks.

I donít know, it seems like Stroman has some paper thin skin and seems to lash out on Twitter over a lot of stuff.

That's sort of what I mean though. You know he's that kind of guy so you're going to go to the wall over a relatively small sum? I get you can't give the guy everything he wants but we're not talking millions here and you want to get him signed to a long term deal in the near future anyway.

If the Jays are going to keep pretending they're a mid-market team and spending like it they can't be too picky about what sorts of talented guys they try to keep around. The ace they have might have to be handled delicately. If they were willing to go out and spend on an Arrieta or Darvish they could be less willing to put up with nonsense. Seems like the risk outweighs the reward here. 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: herman on February 17, 2018, 03:36:40 PM

This. Is. Awesome.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on February 18, 2018, 01:36:25 PM
It's sad to see Lawrie go out the way he did.  I would have rathered him over Solarte or Diaz as our infield backup.  He would have been a fan favorite here.  It must be injuries.  He's a very talented player.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on February 19, 2018, 04:45:17 PM
So Donaldson is not signing here and he expects to be a free agent in August.  Hopefully the Jays can get something for him at the trade deadline.  If not they will at least get a compensatory draft pick.  I think with Guererro Junior coming up it kind of makes sense to let Donaldson walk.  Too bad.  He's an outstanding player.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: disco on March 08, 2018, 07:42:11 PM
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on March 27, 2018, 10:52:59 PM
Bichette looks like he's 12.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on May 10, 2018, 09:37:49 AM
Jays acquire third baseman Gio Urschela from the Indians:


Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Highlander on June 25, 2018, 04:37:58 PM
Bichette looks like he's 12.
Actually he is 8 put has put on a bit of weight
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on June 29, 2018, 04:17:14 AM
Trade:

Steve  Pearce +$ to Red Sox for minor-league infielder Santiago Espinal.

More:
https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-begin-sell-off-shipping-steve-pearce-boston/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-begin-sell-off-shipping-steve-pearce-boston/)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 05, 2018, 05:05:40 AM
Looks like the Yankees are very much interested in J.A. Happ:

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 12, 2018, 01:54:39 AM
NYYankees remain interested in Jays ace J.A.Happ.  But...


Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 25, 2018, 08:59:43 PM
Jays have traded RH reliever Seung-hwan Oh to Colorado.
Nothing confirmed yet, but return is reported to be a pair of minor league 1B, Chad Spanberger and Sean Bouchard.
If that is indeed the return then this is a solid deal for the Jays.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 26, 2018, 05:45:24 AM
Jays have traded RH reliever Seung-hwan Oh to Colorado.
Nothing confirmed yet, but return is reported to be a pair of minor league 1B, Chad Spanberger and Sean Bouchard.
If that is indeed the return then this is a solid deal for the Jays.

Eh that seems like a pretty weak return to me. Both are 22, 1B playing A-ball. And Oh has a cheap option for next year. He should have been/be able to yield a better return than that..
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 26, 2018, 08:28:16 AM
Eh that seems like a pretty weak return to me. Both are 22, 1B playing A-ball. And Oh has a cheap option for next year. He should have been/be able to yield a better return than that..

For a reliever who isn't a closer, it's an excellent return - even with Oh's option for next season. Spanberger has put up huge power numbers, and is only in his 2nd professional season - which is why he's only in A-ball. Bouchard is less impressive, but also in his 2nd professional season and he's played more as an OF this season than a 1B.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on July 26, 2018, 12:52:44 PM
Eh that seems like a pretty weak return to me. Both are 22, 1B playing A-ball. And Oh has a cheap option for next year. He should have been/be able to yield a better return than that..

For a reliever who isn't a closer, it's an excellent return - even with Oh's option for next season. Spanberger has put up huge power numbers, and is only in his 2nd professional season - which is why he's only in A-ball. Bouchard is less impressive, but also in his 2nd professional season and he's played more as an OF this season than a 1B.

Turns out the return is Spanberger (Good power but hitter friendly park + crappy BB rate +1B position isn't all that encouraging) and Hall, a LH OF drafted 35th overall with a bit of potential (plus a PTBNL or cash). Not a bad return (certainly not excellent) but yea, I guess you won't get a whole lot for a reliever, despite the cheap 2nd year option. I'm happy with this for a piece picked up for nothing.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 26, 2018, 07:36:03 PM
'Bye bye Happ... to  the Yankees he goes for Brandon Drury & Bill McKinny.   

Story:
https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/report-blue-jays-agree-deal-j-happ-yankees/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/report-blue-jays-agree-deal-j-happ-yankees/)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 26, 2018, 08:01:14 PM
Jays have claimed RH reliever Oliver Drake off waivers from the Angels. Jays will be his 4th team this year, a warm body to plug into the pen for a couple months.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on July 30, 2018, 05:26:59 PM
Jays have cut ties with Roberto Osuna, trading him to Houston for former closer Ken Giles, minor league RHP Hector Perez and minor league RHP David Paulino.

Couple of the Astros better prospects...Perez is in A ball so a few years away, Paulino was highly regarded prior to a PED suspension last year...could be in the Jays rotation mix going forward.

As for Osuna, you never like to lose that type of talent (believe the youngest player to reach 100 saves in MLB history). Innocent until proven guilty right?, but at the end of the day if things didn't go in his favour the Jays would get even less in return (if anything) and there is no way he would have been able to pitch for Toronto again.

Good for the Jays to get what they did under the circumstances.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on July 30, 2018, 06:44:47 PM
I get the whole innocent until proven guilt thing but why then do you accept (key word from his camp was accept) a 75 (seventy five!) game suspension if youíre innocent.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 30, 2018, 07:04:13 PM

Innocent until proven guilty is a standard for a court of law and potentially some quasi-judicial settings(work disputes, depending on collective bargaining). If the Jays themselves know certain things, they're not obligated to somehow "prove" it before acting in response.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 30, 2018, 07:15:56 PM

My guess is that "earlier this season" basically means as soon as they would have read the police report.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Highlander on July 30, 2018, 07:31:09 PM
Can't stain the corporate brand with that kind of thing, Christ they let go of Gregg Zaun for inappropriate behaviour, not beating the S__t out of his girlfriend.
I knew he was toast the minute my son told me the report.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 31, 2018, 04:43:33 PM
Holy RHP's Batman!
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 04, 2018, 09:09:15 AM
Something to be cheerful about...

MLB's Pipeline Rankings has the Blue Jays farm system in fifth-best overall.

Check these out:

https://www.mlb.com/news/top-10-farm-systems-in-mlb/c-288576958 (https://www.mlb.com/news/top-10-farm-systems-in-mlb/c-288576958)
 
https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-farm-system-ranked-fifth-best-majors-mlb-pipeline/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-farm-system-ranked-fifth-best-majors-mlb-pipeline/)

The future looks indeed promising.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 12, 2018, 04:43:37 PM
Jays call up prospects Danny Jansen (catcher) and Sean Reid-Foley (pitcher) in time for Monday's road series against the KC Royals.

To make room on the roster, catcher Russell Martin is slated at third base (in place of the injured Solarte) and Richard UreŮa is sent back down.

It doesn't appear that the Jays have any intention of calling up Vladimir Guerrero Jr.


https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/fans-get-wish-blue-jays-begin-promoting-prospects/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/fans-get-wish-blue-jays-begin-promoting-prospects/)


https://jaysjournal.com/2018/08/12/blue-jays-pass-opportunity-promote-vladimir-guerrero-jr/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 13, 2018, 11:26:06 PM
Jays call up prospects Danny Jansen (catcher) and Sean Reid-Foley (pitcher) in time for Monday's road series against the KC Royals.

To make room on the roster, catcher Russell Martin is slated at third base (in place of the injured Solarte) and Richard UreŮa is sent back down.

It doesn't appear that the Jays have any intention of calling up Vladimir Guerrero Jr.


https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/fans-get-wish-blue-jays-begin-promoting-prospects/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/fans-get-wish-blue-jays-begin-promoting-prospects/)


https://jaysjournal.com/2018/08/12/blue-jays-pass-opportunity-promote-vladimir-guerrero-jr/

FYI, it was Danny Barnes who was sent down to make room for Reid-Foley NOT Richard Urena.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 16, 2018, 07:44:23 AM
The Blue Jays obtained the other player that was part of the Oh trade to Colorado, (and was to be included later), and that player is prospect  Bryan Baker a RH pitcher.


https://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/minnesota-twins-toronto-blue-jays-july25-1.4784643
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 18, 2018, 07:00:43 PM
The Josh Donaldson situation and what impact it will make for the Jays going
forward:




https://jaysjournal.com/2018/08/18/blue-jays-dont-worry-josh-donaldson-qualifying-offer/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 22, 2018, 09:29:00 AM
Jays injury updates:




Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 22, 2018, 09:42:14 AM
The Blue Jays seem to be in a Catch 22 situation with Josh Donaldson.  It's a case of damn if they do and damn if they don't.   It's certainly a gamble alright.

In fact, according to reports, a portend of what the Jays could obtain for Donaldson: next to nothing, a minor leaguer at best, if they'd be lucky enough to even get a valuable minor leaguer.

The Daniel Murphy trade yesterday to the Chicago Cubs (from the Washington Nationals) may illustrate the above perfectly:

https://jaysjournal.com/2018/08/22/blue-jays-nationals-trade-tells-us-josh-donaldsons-market-value/ (https://jaysjournal.com/2018/08/22/blue-jays-nationals-trade-tells-us-josh-donaldsons-market-value/)


The best of a worst case scenario would most probably play out this way:

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Highlander on August 24, 2018, 07:22:53 PM
Should have traded him last off season, he is an injury away from gone gone gone and for those who couldn't see it coming, well that is the blind leading the blind. He had value, its not coming back and we are not going to see S__t for him.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 24, 2018, 08:34:28 PM
Should have traded him last off season, he is an injury away from gone gone gone and for those who couldn't see it coming, well that is the blind leading the blind. He had value, its not coming back and we are not going to see S__t for him.


Exactly.   :)

It's a classic case of too little, too late.   
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Highlander on August 26, 2018, 12:11:22 PM
I haven't followed Osuna at all since the trade but Giles is a very very good replacement.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 27, 2018, 10:03:28 AM
I haven't followed Osuna at all since the trade but Giles is a very very good replacement.


Giles appears to be the capable closer for far as to what we've seen.  Definitely a positive there.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Highlander on August 27, 2018, 02:22:07 PM
I haven't followed Osuna at all since the trade but Giles is a very very good replacement.


Giles appears to be the capable closer for far as to what we've seen.  Definitely a positive there.

Looked Osuna up. He is killing with the Astro's
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 27, 2018, 09:32:25 PM
Some stats:

Osuna:
http://m.mlb.com/player/532077/roberto-osuna

Giles:
http://m.mlb.com/player/571704/ken-giles
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 27, 2018, 10:49:42 PM
Donaldon not eligible to clear waivers yet...


..in which he will  start rehab assignment in Dunedin tomorrow (Tueday)..

The waiver trade deadline is August 31st. 

Reports also indiicated that Donaldson's locker was cleared out, leading to speculation the Jays are focusing on trading him.

(For The Athletic subscribers):
https://theathletic.com/477954/2018/08/22/stoeten-figuring-out-what-to-do-with-josh-donaldson-is-complicated/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 27, 2018, 11:05:55 PM
As for Tulowitzki, the Jays announced that he will not play this year.  Even though he will be out, Tulowitzki is determined to return to full  health next season (2019) and vie for the competitive role of shortstop.  Competitve position because of Gurriel and Diaz in competing roles.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-tulowitzki-someones-better-ill-go-home/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-tulowitzki-someones-better-ill-go-home/)

(For The Athletic subscribers):
https://theathletic.com/490609/2018/08/26/rational-or-delusional-blue-jays-troy-tulowitzki-says-hell-be-back-in-2019-perhaps-better-than-ever-at-shortstop/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 29, 2018, 12:48:21 AM
How Kendrys Morales went from being the worst Blue Jay hitter early in the season to being the best -- and into the record books.

Morales will be donating his bat to Cooperstown.  Not only did he set a club record in hitting seven home runs in seven consecutive games, he is also the seventh MLB player to have done and thus in a four-way tie in that category.


Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 29, 2018, 07:32:24 PM
Josh Donaldson to be placed on waivers:

More:
https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/report-blue-jays-place-josh-donaldson-waivers-wednesday/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 30, 2018, 02:55:22 AM
Looks like Josh Donaldson's rehab stint in Dunedin is not going as well as planned.  Donaldson played Tuesday but reports indicate that he had been "scratched" from the lineup due to recurring problems.

This places in jeopardy his being placed on waivesr for the required time frame.  The waiver trade deadline is Friday.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2018/08/29/josh-donaldson-trade-pursuit-hits-roadblock.html (https://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2018/08/29/josh-donaldson-trade-pursuit-hits-roadblock.html)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 30, 2018, 08:48:23 AM
Kendrys Morales & Marco Estrada have reportedly cleared  waivers:

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Highlander on August 30, 2018, 11:59:52 AM
Goodby Kendry, goodby Marco, wish it was goodbye to Donnyson as he has become a farmer, continually nursing his calfs.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on August 30, 2018, 01:27:27 PM
Goodby Kendry, goodby Marco, wish it was goodbye to Donnyson as he has become a farmer, continually nursing his calfs.

What did you hear? I doubt Morales gets moved.
 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on August 30, 2018, 02:05:26 PM
Goodby Kendry, goodby Marco, wish it was goodbye to Donnyson as he has become a farmer, continually nursing his calfs.

Clearing waivers doesn't mean anything is imminent or will happen. This discussion occurs literally every year at this time.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on August 30, 2018, 02:40:46 PM
A depressing state of affairs in Toronto.

Do Atkins and Shapiro even know they work for the Jays? Given a contender and the best attendance and viewership. Atkins and Shapiro raise prices, resign no one, trade no one and shop at the Dollarama.

Enjoy your lack of ticket sales and viewership you earned it.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: digdug on August 30, 2018, 02:55:21 PM
And meanwhile

Alex Anthopoulos has resurrected the Braves
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on August 30, 2018, 03:06:04 PM
And meanwhile

Alex Anthopoulos has resurrected the Braves

I would love to hear your take on what Anthopoulos did to resurrect the Braves. He has been there less than a year, inherited the #1 farm system in all of baseball and made no moves (salary drop of Kemp? anything else?) prior to the start of this season.

Meanwhile people crap on guys who actually are good GM's....
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on August 30, 2018, 03:18:44 PM
A depressing state of affairs in Toronto.

Do Atkins and Shapiro even know they work for the Jays? Given a contender and the best attendance and viewership. Atkins and Shapiro raise prices, resign no one, trade no one and shop at the Dollarama.

Enjoy your lack of ticket sales and viewership you earned it.

They inherited a contender who had very short window of contention left. Pretty much every player that made the Jays a contender has declined drastically since the end of the 2016 season, either due to age or injury.

The top 10 position players by fWAR from the 2015 season produced 33 fWAR over the entire season, those same 10 players have produced 3.4 fWAR in 2018 for whatever team they play for now.

The top 10 position players by fWAR from the 2016 season produced 25.1 fWAR over the entire season, those same 10 players have produced 4.0 fWAR in 2018 for whatever team they play for now.

No matter who was in charge, that type of decline from your top players would be very difficult to overcome, a rebuild was always around the corner. Most publications have the Jays with a top 5 farm system and there are some interesting players with control on the MLB team right now. There is also lots of money coming off the books over the next few years.

I'm actually pretty optimistic for the future of the Jays.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: digdug on August 30, 2018, 03:59:26 PM
And meanwhile

Alex Anthopoulos has resurrected the Braves

I would love to hear your take on what Anthopoulos did to resurrect the Braves. He has been there less than a year, inherited the #1 farm system in all of baseball and made no moves (salary drop of Kemp? anything else?) prior to the start of this season.

Meanwhile people crap on guys who actually are good GM's....


Sorry.... wasn't aware that most of the Braves  moves were Pre-Anthopoulolos.

Still think he got a raw deal from the Jays though
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on August 30, 2018, 04:17:55 PM
And meanwhile

Alex Anthopoulos has resurrected the Braves

I would love to hear your take on what Anthopoulos did to resurrect the Braves. He has been there less than a year, inherited the #1 farm system in all of baseball and made no moves (salary drop of Kemp? anything else?) prior to the start of this season.

Meanwhile people crap on guys who actually are good GM's....


Sorry.... wasn't aware that most of the Braves  moves were Pre-Anthopoulolos.

Still think he got a raw deal from the Jays though

I also think AA got a raw deal from the Jays. The team from 2014 to 2015 had a new starter for every position player except for Joey Bats in right field. And the team AA brought together in 2015 was a legitimate championship contender.

Also, a lot of the top prospects the Jays have now are a result of moves made by AA. IMO, the only player of significance he traded away was Syndergaard.

He did better than every Jays GM since Gillick.
 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on August 30, 2018, 05:02:19 PM
A depressing state of affairs in Toronto.

Do Atkins and Shapiro even know they work for the Jays? Given a contender and the best attendance and viewership. Atkins and Shapiro raise prices, resign no one, trade no one and shop at the Dollarama.

Enjoy your lack of ticket sales and viewership you earned it.

They inherited a contender who had very short window of contention left. Pretty much every player that made the Jays a contender has declined drastically since the end of the 2016 season, either due to age or injury.

The top 10 position players by fWAR from the 2015 season produced 33 fWAR over the entire season, those same 10 players have produced 3.4 fWAR in 2018 for whatever team they play for now.

The top 10 position players by fWAR from the 2016 season produced 25.1 fWAR over the entire season, those same 10 players have produced 4.0 fWAR in 2018 for whatever team they play for now.

No matter who was in charge, that type of decline from your top players would be very difficult to overcome, a rebuild was always around the corner. Most publications have the Jays with a top 5 farm system and there are some interesting players with control on the MLB team right now. There is also lots of money coming off the books over the next few years.

I'm actually pretty optimistic for the future of the Jays.

Agreed 100%

Not to mention the fact that David Price alone pretty much solidified that playoff appearance and was gone the following year.

As for the farm system, AA left a few (not "a lot") top prospects, to be sure, but below them was a vast empty space of absolute nothingness.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on August 30, 2018, 05:06:45 PM
And meanwhile

Alex Anthopoulos has resurrected the Braves

I would love to hear your take on what Anthopoulos did to resurrect the Braves. He has been there less than a year, inherited the #1 farm system in all of baseball and made no moves (salary drop of Kemp? anything else?) prior to the start of this season.

Meanwhile people crap on guys who actually are good GM's....


Sorry.... wasn't aware that most of the Braves  moves were Pre-Anthopoulolos.

Still think he got a raw deal from the Jays though

No need to apologize, that did sound a bit testy on my end, which wasn't my intention ;)

I disagree about him getting a raw deal though. He promised 3 playoff appearances in 5 years when he took over...they had 0. Then he went all-in for a tiny window of contention. We got to see some great playoff baseball briefly so hey, it wasn't a complete disaster I guess.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 30, 2018, 06:17:00 PM

If Atkins and Shapiro are planning to do what Anthopoulous couldn't, build a sustainably competitive team around home grown talent, then it's pretty likely they'd have told Rogers' brass to expect a couple of fairly lean years in terms of revenues.

People can complain about that all they want but the Yankees and Dodgers have repeatedly shown us that there just isn't any avenue to winning beyond that. No amount of money spent on free agents can build as good a team as the one you build internally.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 31, 2018, 08:01:30 AM
What's up JD?


Donaldson, who is currently on rehab assignment in Dunedin (Single A ball), returned to the lineup Thursday (yesterday) after being on the sidelines the day before beset by recurring soreness problems.

The Bringer of Rain hit a solo home run in his comeback Thursday.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on August 31, 2018, 12:11:46 PM
A depressing state of affairs in Toronto.

Do Atkins and Shapiro even know they work for the Jays? Given a contender and the best attendance and viewership. Atkins and Shapiro raise prices, resign no one, trade no one and shop at the Dollarama.

Enjoy your lack of ticket sales and viewership you earned it.

They inherited a contender who had very short window of contention left. Pretty much every player that made the Jays a contender has declined drastically since the end of the 2016 season, either due to age or injury.

No matter who was in charge, that type of decline from your top players would be very difficult to overcome, a rebuild was always around the corner. Most publications have the Jays with a top 5 farm system and there are some interesting players with control on the MLB team right now. There is also lots of money coming off the books over the next few years.

I'm actually pretty optimistic for the future of the Jays.
They inherited an MVP, a young ERA winner, the best young closer in the game plus Stroman. I think a lot of people would agree that group is something to build around. Instead, management observed, spun their wheels and did nothing.

I am tired of this argument. Personally, not a "Shatkins" fan.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on August 31, 2018, 12:32:18 PM
A depressing state of affairs in Toronto.

Do Atkins and Shapiro even know they work for the Jays? Given a contender and the best attendance and viewership. Atkins and Shapiro raise prices, resign no one, trade no one and shop at the Dollarama.

Enjoy your lack of ticket sales and viewership you earned it.

They inherited a contender who had very short window of contention left. Pretty much every player that made the Jays a contender has declined drastically since the end of the 2016 season, either due to age or injury.

No matter who was in charge, that type of decline from your top players would be very difficult to overcome, a rebuild was always around the corner. Most publications have the Jays with a top 5 farm system and there are some interesting players with control on the MLB team right now. There is also lots of money coming off the books over the next few years.

I'm actually pretty optimistic for the future of the Jays.
They inherited an MVP, a young ERA winner, the best young closer in the game plus Stroman. I think a lot of people would agree that group is something to build around. Instead, management observed, spun their wheels and did nothing.

I am tired of this argument. Personally, not a "Shatkins" fan.

What did those pieces combine to give them over the last 2 seasons? What did other key pieces from the 2015/16 team like Travis, Bautista, Estrada, Tulo, Martin etc. do in 2017/18?

While what they inherited performed well in 2015/16, they didn't provide real value in 2017/18. Management saw that they were an older team on the verge of a sharp decline so they didn't move valuable prospects to add to a declining core.

If you are tired of the argument, then don't post about it.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on August 31, 2018, 12:41:15 PM
A depressing state of affairs in Toronto.

Do Atkins and Shapiro even know they work for the Jays? Given a contender and the best attendance and viewership. Atkins and Shapiro raise prices, resign no one, trade no one and shop at the Dollarama.

Enjoy your lack of ticket sales and viewership you earned it.

They inherited a contender who had very short window of contention left. Pretty much every player that made the Jays a contender has declined drastically since the end of the 2016 season, either due to age or injury.

No matter who was in charge, that type of decline from your top players would be very difficult to overcome, a rebuild was always around the corner. Most publications have the Jays with a top 5 farm system and there are some interesting players with control on the MLB team right now. There is also lots of money coming off the books over the next few years.

I'm actually pretty optimistic for the future of the Jays.
They inherited an MVP, a young ERA winner, the best young closer in the game plus Stroman. I think a lot of people would agree that group is something to build around. Instead, management observed, spun their wheels and did nothing.

I am tired of this argument. Personally, not a "Shatkins" fan.

What did those pieces combine to give them over the last 2 seasons? What did other key pieces from the 2015/16 team like Travis, Bautista, Estrada, Tulo, Martin etc. do in 2017/18?

While what they inherited performed well in 2015/16, they didn't provide real value in 2017/18. Management saw that they were an older team on the verge of a sharp decline so they didn't move valuable prospects to add to a declining core.

If you are tired of the argument, then don't post about it.
Nor did they recoup anything. Which is it, they choose to watch. Neither rebuilding or competing.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on August 31, 2018, 01:23:12 PM
Nor did they recoup anything. Which is it, they choose to watch. Neither rebuilding or competing.

They did trade Lirano, Smith, Pearce, Happ, Oh, Axford and Loup. Reports are indicating Granderson and Donaldson both are likely moved today as well.

The probably held on to Donaldson for too long. If he was healthy this season I would imagine he would have been moved by now and I don't anyone anticipated him being injured all season.

The other vets like Bautista, Martin and Tulo had no value at the 2017 deadline or this past offseason in the case of Martin and Tulo.

Giles, Smoak and Morales (who has had a pretty good year) are candidates to move for futures between this off-season and next year's deadline. They already have a strong farm system and good payroll flexibility opening up over the next couple years.

No guarantees, but I interested to see how this goes over the next couple years.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on August 31, 2018, 02:13:49 PM
Nor did they recoup anything. Which is it, they choose to watch. Neither rebuilding or competing.

They did trade Lirano, Smith, Pearce, Happ, Oh, Axford and Loup. Reports are indicating Granderson and Donaldson both are likely moved today as well.

The probably held on to Donaldson for too long. If he was healthy this season I would imagine he would have been moved by now and I don't anyone anticipated him being injured all season.

The other vets like Bautista, Martin and Tulo had no value at the 2017 deadline or this past offseason in the case of Martin and Tulo.

Giles, Smoak and Morales (who has had a pretty good year) are candidates to move for futures between this off-season and next year's deadline. They already have a strong farm system and good payroll flexibility opening up over the next couple years.

No guarantees, but I interested to see how this goes over the next couple years.

Yea and not only is their system a top 3 or 4 farm system in all of baseball but of the top 30, 22 are from Atkins/Shapiro.

That's pretty impressive and certainly not the result of "choosing to watch" and "not rebuilding."
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 31, 2018, 08:11:43 PM

I'm sorry but I think this conversation has sort of reached a pretty ridiculous threshold when "inheriting" Osuna is seen as some sort of piece of extraordinary good luck.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 31, 2018, 09:13:18 PM
Josh Donaldson has been traded to the Indians.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 31, 2018, 09:37:13 PM
Iím trying to be patient with Shapiro and Atkins, but man, they do not inspire confidence.

Iíll give them a pass on osuna, not much they could have done, but this is pure garbage. There is no way they got anything of substance from Cleveland.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TML fan on August 31, 2018, 09:50:03 PM
They weren't going to get anything for him anyway.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 31, 2018, 09:52:31 PM
They weren't going to get anything for him anyway.

Then qualify him and keep him.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TML fan on August 31, 2018, 09:53:44 PM
They weren't going to get anything for him anyway.

Then qualify him and keep him.

What for? So he can get injured again and still have no trade value?
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 31, 2018, 09:57:01 PM
I really donít want to get into a back and forth but I feel there was a chance for a reset and a second chance next season. If he plays well he has trade value, if he doesnít or canít play the season all it cost them was one season of salary.

But his mad scramble to get rid of him just looks like amateur hour.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TML fan on August 31, 2018, 10:02:13 PM
If anything they probably had a hard sell getting the budget for Donaldson knowing that the team was probably going to be garbage next year and still having big useless contracts on the books.

Sometimes you just have to cut your losses.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 31, 2018, 10:18:12 PM
They weren't going to get anything for him anyway.

Then qualify him and keep him.

There's a pretty good chance he wouldn't have signed a QO. In which case the return for him is just FA compensation so whatever return they got from Cleveland should probably be measured against that.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 31, 2018, 10:23:16 PM
I donít disagree with you - but it seems like optics at this point. If it comes to the same in terms of perceived value why  do you take the option where it looks like youíre desperate to throw out the trash rather than maybe giving some respect to the player that resurrected the franchise.

I know, I know, thereís no real thing as loyalty in sports.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Deebo on August 31, 2018, 10:24:19 PM
They weren't going to get anything for him anyway.

Then qualify him and keep him.

There's a pretty good chance he wouldn't have signed a QO. In which case the return for him is just FA compensation so whatever return they got from Cleveland should probably be measured against that.

QO compensation would be a pick in the 80 range.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 31, 2018, 10:30:12 PM
I donít disagree with you - but it seems like optics at this point. If it comes to the same in terms of perceived value why  do you take the option where it looks like youíre desperate to throw out the trash rather than maybe giving some respect to the player that resurrected the franchise.

I know, I know, thereís no real thing as loyalty in sports.

Actually what I was going to say was that maybe the way they showed Donaldson respect was in asking him whether he'd rather be kept around or if he'd like to go somewhere that he could maybe build a little free agency value by means of playing some postseason baseball.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on August 31, 2018, 10:37:31 PM
Thatís a fair point actually.

Iím not sure Iíd give this management team that much credit, but what youíre saying makes sense.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 31, 2018, 10:47:26 PM
Thatís a fair point actually.

Iím not sure Iíd give this management team that much credit, but what youíre saying makes sense.

Obviously I have no idea what conversations took place between the Jays and Donaldson but given that this is a situation where what's best for the Jays(given that, as Deebo points out, FA compensation is pretty minimal) and what's best for Donaldson line up fairly closely it seems like this was the right move regardless.

Sure, it stinks that a player as good as Donaldson who very likely could still be a good player is going to leave without much return but unless the Jays were going to make a real attempt to sign him next year(and even if, it's hard to imagine him wanting to come back outside of them offering him the most money) then this was probably inevitable.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on August 31, 2018, 11:21:38 PM

Granderson to the Brewers now too, apparently.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 31, 2018, 11:29:28 PM
Ideally the Jays would have traded a healthy Donaldson at the July deadline for a decent return. With that not being an option it was essentially trade him at the August deadline for next to nothing or hold onto him and extend him a qualifying offer for roughly $18 million in the off-season. Management didn't want to risk the qualifying offer because they believe he would have taken it.

Why would that have been bad? In part because it would block Vlad Jr.'s path to the majors. The Jays only need someone to plug in at 3B for a few weeks at the start of next season to avoid burning a year off Vlad Jr.'s contract. They have players on the roster currently to fill that short-term void without bringing Josh back.
Another factor is all the large contracts on the books for next season in Martin, Morales and Tulo. We are already seeing the team have to get creative with Martin because Jansen is ready to be the #1 catcher. This log jam in the infield could potentially affect how quickly guys like Bichette and Biggio reach the majors.

I'm grateful for all that Josh Donaldson did for the Jays, but at the end of the day also looking forward to having the 3B position free for Vlad Jr. to step in. It sounds like things unfortunately soured at the end between Josh and the Jays, but that's likely more to do with him being one of AA's guys and Shapiro and Atkins wanting to take the team in another direction by committing to the rebuild.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Captain Canuck on August 31, 2018, 11:35:51 PM

Granderson to the Brewers now too, apparently.

All the best to the Grandy Man, one of the classiest guys in MLB.
Opens up more playing time for Billy McKinney in the 4th OF spot. He's also a LH bat and has looked good thus far.

Jays get A ball OF Demi Orimoloye from Milwaukee in the deal. Interesting background, born in Nigeria and grew up in the Ottawa area.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 01, 2018, 06:48:38 AM
Best of luck to Donaldson & Granderson.

Up until this season, Donaldson remained among the best in baseball:

Donaldson, 32, was the 2015 American League MVP and one of the most productive players over the previous five years. From 2013 through 2017, Mike Trout was the only position player with a higher cumulative fWAR than Donaldsonís 34.1.

https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-jays-get-little-return-in-donaldson-deal-1.1166045 (https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-jays-get-little-return-in-donaldson-deal-1.1166045)


For the Blue Jays, up until last season, he remained among their most impactful player:

In 2015 and 2016, he produced 16.1 WAR in 2015 and 2016 ó more than his world-class teammates Bautista and Encarnaciůn combined.

Donaldson had a down year in 2017 by his own standards, but an incredible one by just about anybody elseís. According to Fangraphs he was worth 5.1 WAR in just 113 games for the season ó good enough for 20th in the league among position players, even though all but four of the players ahead of him played in 145 games or more. Whatís easy to forget about Donaldsonís 2017 season, though, is that a tremendous amount of his value was produced late in the year.

https://theathletic.com/490692/2018/08/28/stoeten-if-this-is-the-end-of-the-josh-donaldson-era-he-will-go-down-as-one-of-the-best-to-suit-up-for-the-blue-jays/ (https://theathletic.com/490692/2018/08/28/stoeten-if-this-is-the-end-of-the-josh-donaldson-era-he-will-go-down-as-one-of-the-best-to-suit-up-for-the-blue-jays/)[/color]
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: LittleHockeyFan on September 01, 2018, 11:44:31 AM
::::repealing my Blue Jays fandom::::

:(
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on September 01, 2018, 12:36:25 PM
Player to be named later.

Good times.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Highlander on September 01, 2018, 02:29:42 PM
Player to be named later.

Good times.
I would say the player to be named later will be based upon any performance or non performance on Donaldson part. If he is MVP of the World Series we probably will reap a good pick or prospect. If he is in his non movement period due to ruptured Calf muscle then not so much in return.
Welcome Vlad (next April).
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on September 01, 2018, 02:52:58 PM
Player to be named later.

Good times.
I would say the player to be named later will be based upon any performance or non performance on Donaldson part. If he is MVP of the World Series we probably will reap a good pick or prospect. If he is in his non movement period due to ruptured Calf muscle then not so much in return.
Welcome Vlad (next April).

It will end up being no one or a player who amounts to be no one.

Whoever (if anyone) it is will be an answer to a trivia question in a few years.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 01, 2018, 05:38:57 PM
The Jays' (management) and Donaldson obviously "didn't see eye to eye" on several fronts:



https://theathletic.com/500105/2018/08/31/lott-the-glorious-rise-and-mysterious-fall-of-josh-donaldson-with-the-blue-jays/ (https://theathletic.com/500105/2018/08/31/lott-the-glorious-rise-and-mysterious-fall-of-josh-donaldson-with-the-blue-jays/)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 01, 2018, 08:53:37 PM
I would say the player to be named later will be based upon any performance or non performance on Donaldson part. If he is MVP of the World Series we probably will reap a good pick or prospect. If he is in his non movement period due to ruptured Calf muscle then not so much in return.

That's not how PTBNL deals work. The Jays and Indians will have agreed on a list of players, all of relatively equal value, and the Indians will choose one to send to the Jays later on. If Donaldson does well, the Indians aren't going to send the Jays a better grade of prospect out of the goodness of their hearts.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on September 01, 2018, 09:02:52 PM
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=merryw000jul

Apparently this is the player the jays are getting.

ďThereís more to it than the fact that the player hasnít touched the big-leagues Ė itís the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster,Ē Atkins said

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-believe-ptbnl-valuable-retaining-donaldson/

I donít like this management team, I really donít.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 02, 2018, 06:42:06 AM
From the fans, too...

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Highlander on September 02, 2018, 12:01:04 PM
I have to say it as well, thanks Josh, wish it had worked out better in the end. Also goodbye to Curtis G, nice guy, decent player.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: L K on September 03, 2018, 02:06:19 AM
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=merryw000jul

Apparently this is the player the jays are getting.

ďThereís more to it than the fact that the player hasnít touched the big-leagues Ė itís the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster,Ē Atkins said

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-believe-ptbnl-valuable-retaining-donaldson/

I donít like this management team, I really donít.

Come on.  They arenít at fault for anything.  Who would have known that a guy showing concerning wear and tear injuries and who after being traded you accuse of ignoring your medical staff all offseason wouldnít have been a better trade candidate in the offseason.  I know management doesnít have to be honest with the fans but JP got run out of Toronto for lying about BJ Ryan.  Results matter too but I enjoy our corporate speak management while Rogers jacks ticket prices on a losing product 
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Bender on September 03, 2018, 09:43:00 AM
I really don't understand why they didn't start tearing it down last offseason, but I don't follow the Jays moves that much. Am I wrong in this assesment? I don't understand why, when the writing is on the wall for this core, which only had a couple of years of competitive baseball in them, management didn't start getting back as much assets as possible. AA didn't seem that great in asset management either though...
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=merryw000jul

Apparently this is the player the jays are getting.

ďThereís more to it than the fact that the player hasnít touched the big-leagues Ė itís the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster,Ē Atkins said

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-believe-ptbnl-valuable-retaining-donaldson/

I donít like this management team, I really donít.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 03, 2018, 11:41:59 AM
I really don't understand why they didn't start tearing it down last offseason, but I don't follow the Jays moves that much. Am I wrong in this assesment? I don't understand why, when the writing is on the wall for this core, which only had a couple of years of competitive baseball in them, management didn't start getting back as much assets as possible. AA didn't seem that great in asset management either though...

I think the problem there is that the Jays had such a bad season last year there aren't a lot of guys they could have traded who they would have been seen as getting good value on. I think there's a lot of unfair hindsight going on re: Donaldson inasmuch as if they'd dealt him in the off-season people probably would have accused them of trading him at a low in his value as well. Keeping him around in the hopes that he'd have a big year in his walk year was a gamble that didn't play out, sure, but odds are the return wouldn't have been that good regardless.

Beyond that, I don't really think there's anyone they could have traded that would have yielded much more than what they ended up getting anyway.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on September 03, 2018, 03:44:53 PM
I really don't understand why they didn't start tearing it down last offseason, but I don't follow the Jays moves that much. Am I wrong in this assesment? I don't understand why, when the writing is on the wall for this core, which only had a couple of years of competitive baseball in them, management didn't start getting back as much assets as possible. AA didn't seem that great in asset management either though...
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=merryw000jul

Apparently this is the player the jays are getting.

ďThereís more to it than the fact that the player hasnít touched the big-leagues Ė itís the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster,Ē Atkins said



Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

I think people are seriously undervaluing a) the difficulty of the situation this new management was immediately put in, and b) how good a job they have done, particularly with the farm system.


2016 had a declining, overpaid roster that no longer had Price. They bring in Happ (one of the best FA signings in a long time) who has a near Cy-Young caliber season, re-sign Estrada, move Sanchez to the rotation and then (ultimately) bolster the bullpen with Biagini, Benoit and Grili. Then they trade Hutchinson for Liriano (and 2 prospects), who immediately solidifies the 5th starting role. That team wasn't a lock to make the postseason, Shapiro/Atkins deserve their fair of credit for the team making the playoffs that year and for also acquiring prospects insetead of sending any out.

In 2017 Sanchez misses almost the entire season, Estrada explodes, Liriano explodes, JD battles injuries, Bautista turns to absolute garbage, Morales underperforms, Tulo Tulos, Travis Travis', and Pearce, on a nice cheap low risk deal doesnt pan out (mostly injuries). They turn Liriano and Smith into 4 pretty darn good pieces/prospects, and bank on a healthier/more productive year from their declining assets the following year.

In 2018 JD and Osuna are both gone for almost the entire season. Sanchez and Stroman are both either injured or pitching terribly, Estrada is, effectively, done, Tulo Tulos even further, Martin can't hit or throw anyone out and with Boston/NY being ridiculous, there goes the season. Meanwhile the trading of Granderson, Loup, Happ, JD, Pearce, Axford and Oh brings in 10 prospects. Grichuck and Diaz, acquired for songs, have above average-very good seasons and are cheap, controllable young assets. And the farm system is now ranked top 3-4 overall.

Considering they inherited a team with a terrible farm system, a boatload of money owed to aging, injury-prone vets and a rabid fanbase obsessed with the team's brief playoff run and its comically overrated former GM, I'm not sure what they could have done that would have satisfied anyone.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 03, 2018, 05:59:21 PM
I really don't understand why they didn't start tearing it down last offseason, but I don't follow the Jays moves that much. Am I wrong in this assesment? I don't understand why, when the writing is on the wall for this core, which only had a couple of years of competitive baseball in them, management didn't start getting back as much assets as possible. AA didn't seem that great in asset management either though...
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=merryw000jul (https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=merryw000jul)

Apparently this is the player the jays are getting.

ďThereís more to it than the fact that the player hasnít touched the big-leagues Ė itís the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster,Ē Atkins said



Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

I think people are seriously undervaluing a) the difficulty of the situation this new management was immediately put in, and b) how good a job they have done, particularly with the farm system.


2016 had a declining, overpaid roster that no longer had Price. They bring in Happ (one of the best FA signings in a long time) who has a near Cy-Young caliber season, re-sign Estrada, move Sanchez to the rotation and then (ultimately) bolster the bullpen with Biagini, Benoit and Grili. Then they trade Hutchinson for Liriano (and 2 prospects), who immediately solidifies the 5th starting role. That team wasn't a lock to make the postseason, Shapiro/Atkins deserve their fair of credit for the team making the playoffs that year and for also acquiring prospects insetead of sending any out.

In 2017 Sanchez misses almost the entire season, Estrada explodes, Liriano explodes, JD battles injuries, Bautista turns to absolute garbage, Morales underperforms, Tulo Tulos, Travis Travis', and Pearce, on a nice cheap low risk deal doesnt pan out (mostly injuries). They turn Liriano and Smith into 4 pretty darn good pieces/prospects, and bank on a healthier/more productive year from their declining assets the following year.

In 2018 JD and Osuna are both gone for almost the entire season. Sanchez and Stroman are both either injured or pitching terribly, Estrada is, effectively, done, Tulo Tulos even further, Martin can't hit or throw anyone out and with Boston/NY being ridiculous, there goes the season. Meanwhile the trading of Granderson, Loup, Happ, JD, Pearce, Axford and Oh brings in 10 prospects. Grichuck and Diaz, acquired for songs, have above average-very good seasons and are cheap, controllable young assets. And the farm system is now ranked top 3-4 overall.

Considering they inherited a team with a terrible farm system, a boatload of money owed to aging, injury-prone vets and a rabid fanbase obsessed with the team's brief playoff run and its comically overrated former GM, I'm not sure what they could have done that would have satisfied anyone.


Excellent summary, in a nutshell. 

About JD, according to The Athletic, the Jays attempted to gauge interest in a possible move for him, but were dissatisfied at the insufficiency of the return value.  In other words, if Donaldson had been traded in 2017 (last season) with his diminished numbers, management felt that it wouldn't have garnered high trade value.

By judging the situation to what it eventually became, perhaps many Jays fans wonder if the value would still have been higher than what they got for him now (a player to be named later), virtually nothing, statistically speaking.

Looking back, the time to trade Donaldson and the best window of opportunity was last season, not this year.  Of course, who would have imagined the Jays losing two of their best -- Osuna and Donaldson -- no one forsaw this coming, not Gibbons, Shapiro nor Atkins.  And may we add, not even the fans.

Besides, Donaldson had reiterated to management at the end of last season (2017)  that he did not wish to be traded.  Management did mention to him that there were teams expressing an interest in his services.  JD wanted to remain a lifelong Blue Jay, get healthy, and be ready, able, and willing for the upcoming season (2018).  Management also offered him an extension (contract talks) for the soon-to-be FA.

We can only surmise what a healthy Donaldson would have continued to have brought to the Jays.  All of that is over now and the important thing is for the team to continue forward with it's young prospects.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Bender on September 03, 2018, 07:59:54 PM
Interesting. I didn't follow the Jays that closely so I didn't realize Donaldson had no value due to injury even back then.

So what do we do with Tulo? He's basically constantly injured?

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 03, 2018, 08:21:15 PM
Interesting. I didn't follow the Jays that closely so I didn't realize Donaldson had no value due to injury even back then.

Saying he had no value probably isn't accurate. He probably could have been dealt for a couple prospects. But they chose to keep him around in the hopes that he'd have a strong year and build value. It didn't work out but it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

So what do we do with Tulo? He's basically constantly injured?

At this point it would be pretty surprising if Tulowitzki played another full season.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 04, 2018, 05:18:17 AM
Atkins on the logicality of the Donaldson trade:

Quote
ďIs one year at whatever value Ö of Josh Donaldson more valuable than six years of Player X at Cost Y? That is an equation that anyone could do and figure out and determine which one they would rather have. And I think what lines up for us now very well is how well the acquired talent matches with a lot of our upper-level talent in our system.Ē

Atkins on the so-called contract extendion:

Quote
ďWe talked about extensions at length over the course of last offseason,Ē Atkins said. ďJosh is an incredible player and will continue to be a great player. So as we weighed our alternatives, it just came down to us feeling that this was the best alternative for us in the moment. Now as far as how he sees that, you would have to talk more to him about that.Ē

In short, Atkins said, Player X is worth more to the Jays than the draft pick they would have received had they offered him an $18-million qualifying offer when he became a free agent. It was also clear they did not wish to risk him accepting a qualifying offer.

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 04, 2018, 05:41:56 AM
The road to success:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-atkins-becoming-winning-team-involves-tough-decisions/
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 06, 2018, 02:49:00 AM
No Vlad for September call-up?  Shapiro explains why...


Da rule:
The current rules state that a player needs 172 days for a year of service and six full years of service before he reaches free agency. If Guerrero or Jimťnez debuted now, they would build up about 30 daysí worth of service time. By quashing any thought of a promotion now, it forces the teams to continue the empty excuses through spring training and the first two weeks of the season. By then, when a player can no longer accrue 172 days, he can be summoned for his debut, that extra free agent season secured.

Quote
ďI hate doing it,Ē said one of the many general managers who has engaged in service-time manipulation. ďBut if I didnít, I wouldnít be doing my job.Ē


https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/mark-shapiro-speaks-polarizing-handling-vlad-guerrero-jr-232917663.html (https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/mark-shapiro-speaks-polarizing-handling-vlad-guerrero-jr-232917663.html)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 06, 2018, 03:38:33 AM
Rumours...Shapiro going to the Mets?

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/report-blue-jays-president-mark-shapiro-linked-potential-mets-job-235231923.html (https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/report-blue-jays-president-mark-shapiro-linked-potential-mets-job-235231923.html)
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 06, 2018, 10:58:41 PM
He said, they said. Looks like the Jays have gotten the attention of the baseball player's union in keeping Vladdy Guerrero Jr. from being called up. Quite the contrast to the reasons Shapiro gave the other day.
Here's why::

Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 07, 2018, 09:21:22 AM
No Vlad for September call-up?  Shapiro explains why...


Da rule:
The current rules state that a player needs 172 days for a year of service and six full years of service before he reaches free agency. If Guerrero or Jimťnez debuted now, they would build up about 30 daysí worth of service time. By quashing any thought of a promotion now, it forces the teams to continue the empty excuses through spring training and the first two weeks of the season. By then, when a player can no longer accrue 172 days, he can be summoned for his debut, that extra free agent season secured.

Quote
ďI hate doing it,Ē said one of the many general managers who has engaged in service-time manipulation. ďBut if I didnít, I wouldnít be doing my job.Ē


https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/mark-shapiro-speaks-polarizing-handling-vlad-guerrero-jr-232917663.html (https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/mark-shapiro-speaks-polarizing-handling-vlad-guerrero-jr-232917663.html)
Shapiro is so full of BS. I am convinced he thinks Blue Jay fans are idiots. He's so disingenuous. Please go to the Mets.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on September 07, 2018, 10:03:04 AM
I guess Shapiro should have said "We are, just like literally every other organization would do/has done in our situation, keeping Guerrero in the minors to avoid starting his service clock and to keep an extra asset on our 40-man roster that would otherwise be gone for nothing, because the season is over and there is not one reasonable reason to bring Guerrero up right now."

I mean he could have said that but I'm not sure that's the smartest thing for him to say.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 07, 2018, 10:33:44 AM
I guess Shapiro should have said "We are, just like literally every other organization would do/has done in our situation, keeping Guerrero in the minors to avoid starting his service clock and to keep an extra asset on our 40-man roster that would otherwise be gone for nothing, because the season is over and there is not one reasonable reason to bring Guerrero up right now."

I mean he could have said that but I'm not sure that's the smartest thing for him to say.
He should say that. The Jays are not violating any rules.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 07, 2018, 10:46:07 AM

I don't for a second believe that if Shapiro had been forthright about service time concerns that the fans who look to give him crap about everything wouldn't then talk about how terrible it is that he doesn't care about giving fans buying September tickets something to cheer for.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Andy on September 07, 2018, 12:19:04 PM
I guess Shapiro should have said "We are, just like literally every other organization would do/has done in our situation, keeping Guerrero in the minors to avoid starting his service clock and to keep an extra asset on our 40-man roster that would otherwise be gone for nothing, because the season is over and there is not one reasonable reason to bring Guerrero up right now."

I mean he could have said that but I'm not sure that's the smartest thing for him to say.
He should say that. The Jays are not violating any rules.

So, who cares what he says? Not only do I agree with Nik about these fans still finding a way to give him crap but, regardless, the proper course of action is still being taken. I much prefer that than to having a nice, young, upstart Canadian President/GM who keeps making terrible decisions but is always up front about them.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: TimKerr on September 07, 2018, 12:54:45 PM
I guess Shapiro should have said "We are, just like literally every other organization would do/has done in our situation, keeping Guerrero in the minors to avoid starting his service clock and to keep an extra asset on our 40-man roster that would otherwise be gone for nothing, because the season is over and there is not one reasonable reason to bring Guerrero up right now."

I mean he could have said that but I'm not sure that's the smartest thing for him to say.
He should say that. The Jays are not violating any rules.

So, who cares what he says? Not only do I agree with Nik about these fans still finding a way to give him crap but, regardless, the proper course of action is still being taken. I much prefer that than to having a nice, young, upstart Canadian President/GM who keeps making terrible decisions but is always up front about them.

Also, I've watched Vlad play live a few times and yes his defence is not that strong. So yes they are saving his service time but his defence isn't good either.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 07, 2018, 01:13:34 PM

Another thing to consider is that with a manager who's probably on the way out and a clubhouse full of underperforming vets there's a real chance that it might not be the best environment to give a kid his first taste of the big leagues and, if that's true, it's also the sort of thing you can't really say.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 07, 2018, 02:20:07 PM

Another thing to consider is that with a manager who's probably on the way out and a clubhouse full of underperforming vets there's a real chance that it might not be the best environment to give a kid his first taste of the big leagues and, if that's true, it's also the sort of thing you can't really say.
By the way, I totally agree with keeping Vlad in the minors to save a year of control. If him being up didn't burn a year of control he would be up right now. To suggest he wouldn't be up otherwise is crazy.
Title: Re: Jays Roster Discussion
Post by: Frank E on September 07, 2018, 02:40:41 PM

Another thing to consider is that with a manager who's probably on the way out and a clubhouse full of underperforming vets there's a real chance that it might not be the best environment to give a kid his first taste of the big leagues and, if that's true, it's also the sort of thing you can't really say.

This is how I feel, and I agree that it's not something you can really say.