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Maple Leafs News and Views => Main Leafs Hockey Talk => Topic started by: Rick Couchman on July 23, 2015, 02:39:49 PM

Title: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Rick Couchman on July 23, 2015, 02:39:49 PM
Shanny, Lou, Hunter, Dubas, Babcock...  I'm convinced they're on the right track. 

Name me a team that has a better group leading their organization?!  I like it.  A lot.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Rick Couchman on July 23, 2015, 02:44:37 PM
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Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on July 23, 2015, 03:26:23 PM
Thanks for the optimism Rick, I tend to agree with you and if we are wrong, it's not by much.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: draeko17 on July 23, 2015, 03:51:38 PM
I'm hesitant to get to excited yet. However from one year ago until today, the organization looks amazingly different.  It's astounding.  Can't help but nod and smile a bit with optimism.  Could it be?  Really?   Man, what if....    :o :'( :) :) ;) ;D
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Rick Couchman on July 23, 2015, 04:12:52 PM
I have good optimism that this season the Leafs will:
1.  Compete harder
2.  Continue to put better, younger players on the ice

I suspect it's 3-4 years before we're a legitimate threat for a deep playoff run.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: pmrules on July 23, 2015, 04:48:38 PM
I have good optimism that this season the Leafs will:
1.  Compete harder
2.  Continue to put better, younger players on the ice

I suspect it's 3-4 years before we're a legitimate threat for a deep playoff run.

I couldn't agree more on all points.  I think this team will have younger better players who will put there all on the ice.  They will all have defensive responsibilities, and if they don't respect that, they will be gone.  If they don't put in effort, they will be gone. 

The last few years have been terrible hockey to watch.  I'd rather watch defensive hockey than the garbage of the past few years.  I hope that defensive effort changes above all, and the road to sustainable winning and eventually (hopefully) a Cup is built.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: AvroArrow on July 23, 2015, 07:36:37 PM
Well, 3 out of those 5 have no experience building an NHL team.  That's not to say I'm worried, but I'm not confident they're a home run or top group in the league either.

I can say I'm very happy about the direction of the team (rebuild).
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Potvin29 on July 23, 2015, 07:41:25 PM
Well, 3 out of those 5 have no experience building an NHL team.  That's not to say I'm worried, but I'm not confident they're a home run or top group in the league either.

I can say I'm very happy about the direction of the team (rebuild).

Why aren't you happy with the direction of the team?

EDIT: What bullfrog said.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Bullfrog on July 23, 2015, 07:43:54 PM
You might want to re-read his sentence.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Potvin29 on July 23, 2015, 07:44:37 PM
You might want to re-read his sentence.

I seriously read that 5 times before I saw it.  Time for new glasses.  I don't want to re-read it again.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: AvroArrow on July 23, 2015, 09:32:23 PM
You might want to re-read his sentence.

I seriously read that 5 times before I saw it.  Time for new glasses.  I don't want to re-read it again.

You know what?  I re-read my last comment after I saw your post and even I read it as "I can't say".  So don't feel bad. :P
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Mostar on July 24, 2015, 01:26:15 AM
I'm feeling really good about the state of the Leafs as well. Weird to say that after such a dismal season (dismal last 10 or so), but a turnaround is being staged. All this group need is some time.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on July 24, 2015, 08:27:24 AM
i read it as can't as well. strange
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on July 24, 2015, 09:23:50 AM

I mean, it's pretty hard to argue with what's going on in Chicago and I'm very impressed with what Jim Nill has put together in Dallas but I like the Leafs group as well. They seem to be operating on a pretty sound strategy of putting smart guys in the right positions and I'm a pretty firm believer in that being the way to go.

The real wild card in all this though is the board and its apparently fairly fractious nature at times. This will hopefully only really be Shanahan's thing to deal with but I do think it's going to be the challenge in terms of managing expectations while at the same time staying on everyone's good side.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 24, 2015, 09:59:06 AM
It sure is nuts to think of the changes that have been made in the front office and behind the benches in just the past year:

Lamoriello > Nonis
Dubas/Hunter > Poulin
Pridham > Loiselle
Babcock > Carlyle

Plus the additions of some really good OHL talent like D.J. Smith, Sheldon Keefe, and Lindsay Hofford. The addition of the R&D team. Revamping the player development system.

Obviously, in the end all these things still need to translate into wins, but there's definitely good reason to be optimistic about the future of this team.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Stebro on July 24, 2015, 01:36:56 PM
I definately think that we are on the right track, what's weird is although I know we will likely stink for a while, I haven't been this excited about the leafs for the last 7-8 years or so. Now I check hockey sites every day basically.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on July 25, 2015, 10:15:42 AM
This is awesome.
http://www.tsn.ca/talent/10-questions-to-consider-after-lamoriello-hiring-1.335730

Quote
In reality, the Leafs' decision-making process seems a little bit more nuanced, more tangled than "complete control" for Lamoriello. Shanahan said on TSN 1050 that Lamoriello will "be a leader, he will make decisions," he will "have a strong presence" but ultimately will "make the decisions within the group mentality."

[...]

"Winners know how to adapt to win," Shanahan told reporters Thursday. "Is it going to be a challenge? Yeah, sure … (Lamoriello) comes into this job with his eyes wide open as to how I envisioned the organization, which is the same as Mike (Babcock). Which is (assistant to Lamoriello) Brandon Pridham is just as important to him as anyone else that I've hired, in his own way. As is (director of player personnel) Mark Hunter. As is Kyle Dubas. As is the coach, and the GM. As is (Marlies coach) Sheldon Keefe."
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on September 11, 2015, 03:05:45 PM
Maple Leafs State of the Nation
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/09/10/toronto-maple-leafs-state-of-the-nation-full-transcript/

Quote
Fan: I just wanted to know, since you guys have hired so many new upper management [personnel] this year, a lot of similar roles and a lot of great hockey minds together, who is going to make the game day decisions when it comes to the team?

Babcock: I think what happens when you have a team is the President makes the decisions he’s supposed, the manager makes the decisions he’s supposed to, and the coach makes the decisions he’s supposed to. When you’re making those decisions, we’ve all got feedback in all those situations. What I mean by that is Lou and I talk every single day. When the game is on, and I decide who is playing, when the game is on I’m making those decisions. When we go to trade a player, when we go to acquire a player, Lou’s talked to me in advance, I’ve talked to Lou, and in the end he’s got to make that decision. I think what happens is different people are making different decisions at different times, but we all have input. That doesn’t mean we all agree all the time. In the end, the coach coaches, the manager manages. That’s the way it works.

Shanahan: It’s important to know we have a tremendous amount of respect for each other. If I’m going to make a decision, I want to know what Lou thinks, I want to know what Mike thinks, and I want to know what Brandon Pridham thinks. We trust each other; we trust the privacy of one another, but we also know, like Mike said, we all have different jobs. It doesn’t mean we don’t want to lean on each other, but at the end of the day, Mike is on the bench and I can’t change the lines. We all have our own jobs to do. I think that it’s going to work very well. I have absolutely no concerns whatsoever about this group that we’ve put together.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Dappleganger on September 11, 2015, 03:15:35 PM
Having Lou as GM is still going to take some getting used to.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 11, 2015, 03:25:49 PM

The way the power structure has been described as of late has me a little less enthused about the team's direction post-Lamoriello's hiring.

But I think some of it is posturing.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: MetalRaven on September 11, 2015, 03:43:09 PM

The way the power structure has been described as of late has me a little less enthused about the team's direction post-Lamoriello's hiring.

But I think some of it is posturing.

I don't even care if it is posturing...its the BEST posturing.
Im currently buying all the kool-aid...ill take it all...it tastes delicious. They're saying all the right things as far as im concerned. I have more confidence in the management structure now then I ever did. If they work as well as they speak, I think we should have a contender soon and maybe even a cup before I die, assuming im not taken out by a random bus.

What are your concerns regarding the direction of the team if I may ask?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 11, 2015, 04:00:42 PM
What are your concerns regarding the direction of the team if I may ask?

They're not really concerns, I was just more excited by the idea of a Dubas-Hunter-Shanahan triumvirate making the decisions than I am with a team that's genuinely being managed by Lou Lamoriello.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on September 11, 2015, 04:24:35 PM
What are your concerns regarding the direction of the team if I may ask?

They're not really concerns, I was just more excited by the idea of a Dubas-Hunter-Shanahan triumvirate making the decisions than I am with a team that's genuinely being managed by Lou Lamoriello.

I would agree with this.

One of the other questions prompted an answer from Lou about how much he admired Hunter, and Babcock insinuated that they were planning on getting him to run the 2016 draft too, so there's that.

Quote
Babcock: Hopefully the future with those kids is bright. In that way, we’re going to have to continue with Mark Hunter and the way we’re set up for the draft to stockpile kids.

[...]

Lamoriello: That was one of the things that was really attractive to me coming here – Mark Hunter. In my opinion, he’s one of the best, if not the best. In order to get good players you have to have somebody who has a good eye and what he’s done with the scouting staff. He’s done that, and we can see that just with the prospects here today and where they were yesterday.

Shanahan also noted that when people started asking him about advanced stats and his position on it when he was first hired, he consulted two people: Dubas and Lamoriello. He ended up hiring both of them.

Quote
When I first got hired and somebody started talking to me about analytics and data and things like that, ironically what a lot of people don’t know is I sort of went to two different people and asked them what it meant. One was Kyle Dubas and that meeting was set up through David Branch. One of them, ironically — and it’s a bit of a secret but I’ll tell it now — was Lou Lamoriello. Lou is sneaky smart and sneaky nimble when it comes to information. He is a baseball man as well.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: MetalRaven on September 11, 2015, 07:00:34 PM
What are your concerns regarding the direction of the team if I may ask?

They're not really concerns, I was just more excited by the idea of a Dubas-Hunter-Shanahan triumvirate making the decisions than I am with a team that's genuinely being managed by Lou Lamoriello.

Thats fair.

I'll admit im not overly familiar with many Devils trades. Im hoping the triumvirate are still in charge of finding talent and who to trade for.  Lou would be in charge of making the trade as one sided in our direction as possible. Same with contract negotiations. Lou brings experience in those two departments that the three lack on an NHL level. Im probably dreaming in technicolour but thats what im hoping for anyway, Lou to squeeze every drop of value from trades.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Mostar on September 12, 2015, 11:56:26 PM
Just to add some contrast, this is a team that was once run by Harold Ballard.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: RedLeaf on September 13, 2015, 12:43:21 AM
Just to add some contrast, this is a team that was once run by Harold Ballard.

Very well contrasted.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 13, 2015, 11:53:54 AM
Just to add some contrast, this is a team that was once run by Harold Ballard.

The soft bigotry of low expectations.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on September 14, 2015, 12:26:29 AM
Ballard's stench on this franchise seems to be finally washing away with having a group of managers who appreciated talent rather than country of origin (are you listening Don?).  Russians, Americans, Swedes, etc.
Remember when Harold was so short sighted that a Russian would never play for the Leafs?? 
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 14, 2015, 08:09:47 AM

How is that in anyway different from the Quinn years? Remember? With our Swedish captain and Russian sniper and #1 defenseman and Kaberle and Berezin and....

Seriously, that was 15 years ago.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on September 14, 2015, 09:12:30 AM

What are your concerns regarding the direction of the team if I may ask?

They're not really concerns, I was just more excited by the idea of a Dubas-Hunter-Shanahan triumvirate making the decisions than I am with a team that's genuinely being managed by Lou Lamoriello.

A Lou Lamoriello whose track record as GM has, for some years now, been suspect at best, I might add.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on September 14, 2015, 10:48:08 AM
Lou will not make any moves without approval by the rest. I just can't see him having complete autonomy.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 15, 2015, 07:59:18 AM
An article from TSN about how Lou's is still in learning mode with the Leafs: http://www.tsn.ca/lamoriello-in-learning-mode-as-new-leafs-gm-1.360569

One thing popped out as sorta interesting to me:

He had yet to institute any of his well-established New Jersey rules – such as the clean-cut appearance of players – though the club has quickly altered some of its media policies.

Only a few voices from the hockey operations side – Lamoriello, Babcock and team president Brendan Shanahan – are expected to speak for the team in the future. That's just the way the new boss prefers it.


If I don't get to hear the sound of Kyle Dubas' sweet voice anymore there will be hell to pay.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on September 15, 2015, 08:52:26 AM
An article from TSN about how Lou's is still in learning mode with the Leafs: http://www.tsn.ca/lamoriello-in-learning-mode-as-new-leafs-gm-1.360569

One thing popped out as sorta interesting to me:

He had yet to institute any of his well-established New Jersey rules – such as the clean-cut appearance of players – though the club has quickly altered some of its media policies.

Only a few voices from the hockey operations side – Lamoriello, Babcock and team president Brendan Shanahan – are expected to speak for the team in the future. That's just the way the new boss prefers it.


If I don't get to hear the sound of Kyle Dubas' sweet voice anymore there will be hell to pay.

Maybe they think Dubas is a little too forthright when speaking, which is precisely why it's been nice to hear him talk about his philosophy on the game.

Perhaps he'll still talk Marlies specifics given he is officially their GM.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on September 15, 2015, 09:12:43 AM
An article from TSN about how Lou's is still in learning mode with the Leafs: http://www.tsn.ca/lamoriello-in-learning-mode-as-new-leafs-gm-1.360569

One thing popped out as sorta interesting to me:

He had yet to institute any of his well-established New Jersey rules – such as the clean-cut appearance of players – though the club has quickly altered some of its media policies.

Only a few voices from the hockey operations side – Lamoriello, Babcock and team president Brendan Shanahan – are expected to speak for the team in the future. That's just the way the new boss prefers it.


If I don't get to hear the sound of Kyle Dubas' sweet voice anymore there will be hell to pay.

Maybe they think Dubas is a little too forthright when speaking, which is precisely why it's been nice to hear him talk about his philosophy on the game.

Perhaps he'll still talk Marlies specifics given he is officially their GM.

Sounds like Dubas is also being given the patient development treatment with a veteran on a short-term contract in front of him.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: L K on September 15, 2015, 11:21:24 AM
An article from TSN about how Lou's is still in learning mode with the Leafs: http://www.tsn.ca/lamoriello-in-learning-mode-as-new-leafs-gm-1.360569

One thing popped out as sorta interesting to me:

He had yet to institute any of his well-established New Jersey rules – such as the clean-cut appearance of players – though the club has quickly altered some of its media policies.

Only a few voices from the hockey operations side – Lamoriello, Babcock and team president Brendan Shanahan – are expected to speak for the team in the future. That's just the way the new boss prefers it.


If I don't get to hear the sound of Kyle Dubas' sweet voice anymore there will be hell to pay.

That's something that has me a little wary.  Lou has traditionally been an awesome GM but  what had me excited about this rebuild was the Shanahan/Babcock/Hunter/Dubas group.  I'm less thrilled with a show being run by Lou.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 15, 2015, 11:22:46 AM

If there's one thing that says quality, in touch management, it's hassling players about their facial hair.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 15, 2015, 12:09:39 PM
That's something that has me a little wary.  Lou has traditionally been an awesome GM but  what had me excited about this rebuild was the Shanahan/Babcock/Hunter/Dubas group.  I'm less thrilled with a show being run by Lou.

I'm still crossing my fingers that on the inside this team is still being run by what I guess we can call the triumvirate, but yeah on the outside it's starting to look a little more like Lou might have more power than I'd like. We still don't know for sure though. His short-term deal though to me still suggests that any long-term decisions will primarily be made by the other guys.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: L K on September 15, 2015, 12:17:34 PM

If there's one thing that says quality, in touch management, it's hassling players about their facial hair.

(https://comeyoumastersofwar.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/mattingly.png)
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on September 15, 2015, 12:58:01 PM
That's something that has me a little wary.  Lou has traditionally been an awesome GM but  what had me excited about this rebuild was the Shanahan/Babcock/Hunter/Dubas group.  I'm less thrilled with a show being run by Lou.

I'm still crossing my fingers that on the inside this team is still being run by what I guess we can call the triumvirate, but yeah on the outside it's starting to look a little more like Lou might have more power than I'd like. We still don't know for sure though. His short-term deal though to me still suggests that any long-term decisions will primarily be made by the other guys.

We've already walked this ground, but this was exactly why I said at the get-go that bringing in LouLam was a problem.  I don't care what the length of his contract is, he's not going to subordinate himself to Dubas/Hunter.  His personality, for one reason, as well as his overall track record as a veteran GM widely considered to be among the best (although, as I've said, his recent work is suspect).

I still think bringing him in didn't make a lick of sense.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on September 15, 2015, 01:16:51 PM
A Lou Lamoriello whose track record as GM has, for some years now, been suspect at best, I might add.

Though, to be fair, that same Lou was severely hampered by a lack of financial strength, and running a team that played in front of a fairly empty arena. How much influence those factors had is debatable, sure, but they're not factors in Toronto.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 15, 2015, 01:19:43 PM
A Lou Lamoriello whose track record as GM has, for some years now, been suspect at best, I might add.

Though, to be fair, that same Lou was severely hampered by a lack of financial strength, and running a team that played in front of a fairly empty arena. How much influence those factors had is debatable, sure, but they're not factors in Toronto.

Yeah, although they haven't been in the news as often as the Thrashers or Coyotes, the Devils as a franchise were probably just as much of a mess over the last ten years as either of them.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Tigger on September 15, 2015, 01:21:17 PM
I still think bringing him in didn't make a lick of sense.

The Leafs were shy on experience at the management level, I think, if Lou helps transition that group some I think it'll pay off. It sure seems like he was brought in to groom Dubas in particular, which is a bit different from not subordinating oneself.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 15, 2015, 01:59:50 PM
Yeah, although they haven't been in the news as often as the Thrashers or Coyotes, the Devils as a franchise were probably just as much of a mess over the last ten years as either of them.

He also lost 2 elite level forwards through no fault of his own basically. Kovalchuk bolted to Russia, there was nothing he could do there. And while some NJ fans think Lou could have locked up Parise to a long-term deal before he became an UFA, I think it's pretty clear that he wanted to play in his home state. And those two were basically irreplaceable. There's definitely some question marks surrounding the last few years of Lou's tenure but if even just one of those guys decided to stay in New Jersey Lou would probably still be there too.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 15, 2015, 02:23:17 PM
Yeah, although they haven't been in the news as often as the Thrashers or Coyotes, the Devils as a franchise were probably just as much of a mess over the last ten years as either of them.

He also lost 2 elite level forwards through no fault of his own basically. Kovalchuk bolted to Russia, there was nothing he could do there. And while some NJ fans think Lou could have locked up Parise to a long-term deal before he became an UFA, I think it's pretty clear that he wanted to play in his home state. And those two were basically irreplaceable. There's definitely some question marks surrounding the last few years of Lou's tenure but if even just one of those guys decided to stay in New Jersey Lou would probably still be there too.

I think a pretty fair reading of his last 5 or so years in New Jersey would be to say there's nothing egregiously bad but there's also nothing particularly good either.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on September 15, 2015, 04:11:37 PM
Lou hasn't been a detriment to the management team (yet?). If anything, he helps Dubas and Hunter slot into appropriate positions on the org chart for their level of NHL experience and their individual strengths, and keep Shanahan out of transactional discussions (see Kessel trade, Dave Bolland pursuit).

I do see him as a seat warmer, who brought to the group instant cachet and decades of networking with the old boys club that most of NHL GMing has become.

Is he slightly out of touch with how a salary cap era team should operate? Maybe. But Dubas and Hunter are not, and Pridham definitely is not. Lou has shown a lot of willingness to listen to those voices Shanahan has gathered together. As long as he doesn't seek to mortgage the future for the present over the next three years, this is pretty hard to screw up in my opinion.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Britishbulldog on September 15, 2015, 06:05:35 PM
A Lou Lamoriello whose track record as GM has, for some years now, been suspect at best, I might add.

Though, to be fair, that same Lou was severely hampered by a lack of financial strength, and running a team that played in front of a fairly empty arena. How much influence those factors had is debatable, sure, but they're not factors in Toronto.

Yeah, although they haven't been in the news as often as the Thrashers or Coyotes, the Devils as a franchise were probably just as much of a mess over the last ten years as either of them.

Yup.  When NJ was in the 2012 Finals, they not only lost to LA Kings but they almost went bankrupt the following week.  It would have been really odd if they had won the Stanley Cup days before going bankrupt.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Britishbulldog on September 15, 2015, 06:18:10 PM

We've already walked this ground, but this was exactly why I said at the get-go that bringing in LouLam was a problem.  I don't care what the length of his contract is, he's not going to subordinate himself to Dubas/Hunter.  His personality, for one reason, as well as his overall track record as a veteran GM widely considered to be among the best (although, as I've said, his recent work is suspect).

I still think bringing him in didn't make a lick of sense.

The benefit of bringing in Lou Lam is no one else on the management team has the experience with the other NHL GMs like he does.  He knows the other GMs quirks, etc.  That's what I like about him overseeing Dubas and Hunter.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 15, 2015, 08:04:37 PM
Lou hasn't been a detriment to the management team (yet?). If anything, he helps Dubas and Hunter slot into appropriate positions on the org chart for their level of NHL experience and their individual strengths, and keep Shanahan out of transactional discussions (see Kessel trade, Dave Bolland pursuit).

So the argument is essentially that they needed Lou Lamoriello because it wouldn't be "appropriate" for Dubas or Hunter to be running the team because of their complete lack of NHL front office experience, therefore it was prudent to bring in someone who managed to win multiple Stanley Cups and became one of the most successful NHL GMs of all time...after being hired to run the Devils despite his complete lack of NHL front office experience.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 15, 2015, 08:20:59 PM

And, just to push all of my chips to the center of the table, I don't know how legit "We needed to get Shanahan out of contract discussions as evidenced by the offer they made Dave Bolland so it's best they put it in the hands of the guy who signed Ryan Clowe for essentially the same money" is.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: jdh1 on September 15, 2015, 09:20:38 PM

And, just to push all of my chips to the center of the table, I don't know how legit "We needed to get Shanahan out of contract discussions as evidenced by the offer they made Dave Bolland so it's best they put it in the hands of the guy who signed Ryan Clowe for essentially the same money" is.
Your funny.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on September 15, 2015, 09:52:43 PM

And, just to push all of my chips to the center of the table, I don't know how legit "We needed to get Shanahan out of contract discussions as evidenced by the offer they made Dave Bolland so it's best they put it in the hands of the guy who signed Ryan Clowe for essentially the same money" is.

Well to be fair, it's been a couple of months and nothing astronomically bad has happened.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on September 16, 2015, 08:45:32 AM
Lou hasn't been a detriment to the management team (yet?). If anything, he helps Dubas and Hunter slot into appropriate positions on the org chart for their level of NHL experience and their individual strengths, and keep Shanahan out of transactional discussions (see Kessel trade, Dave Bolland pursuit).

So the argument is essentially that they needed Lou Lamoriello because it wouldn't be "appropriate" for Dubas or Hunter to be running the team because of their complete lack of NHL front office experience, therefore it was prudent to bring in someone who managed to win multiple Stanley Cups and became one of the most successful NHL GMs of all time...after being hired to run the Devils despite his complete lack of NHL front office experience.

And, just to push all of my chips to the center of the table, I don't know how legit "We needed to get Shanahan out of contract discussions as evidenced by the offer they made Dave Bolland so it's best they put it in the hands of the guy who signed Ryan Clowe for essentially the same money" is.

Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved it if it was just Dubas/Hunter/Pridham from here on out. Since Dubas came on board, we've had no ugly signings (dodging Bolland and Jorges), and we've publicly embraced data-driven decision making. Hunter's results remain to be seen but they're already very promising.

I don't see the sky falling just because Lou Lamoriello is part of the team though.

Who better to help Dubas and Hunter catalyze their development as NHL GMs than "someone who managed to win multiple Stanley Cups and became one of the most successful NHL GMs of all time [...] despite his complete lack of NHL front office experience"? If there is an opportunity to walk that road, I'd rather have a guide who has done it before showing me what he did and does.

Dubas and Hunter are the Nylander and Marner of the management team: sky-high potential, massive achievements outside the NHL. I'm okay with them erring on the side of letting them excel in 'lesser' roles for now, and I don't doubt that their voices will be taken well into account during those big decisions to come.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 16, 2015, 09:33:15 AM
I don't see the sky falling just because Lou Lamoriello is part of the team though.

Woah. That certainly establishes you as being a very reasonable counterpoint to everyone who's saying that Lamoriello is going to doom the team to failure. Good job keeping everyone's wild nonsense in check.

People are allowed to raise concerns about the current structure. We don't need to pretend that everything this group does is divinely spun perfection in order to still have a generally positive outlook for the future.

Who better to help Dubas and Hunter catalyze their development as NHL GMs than "someone who managed to win multiple Stanley Cups and became one of the most successful NHL GMs of all time [...] despite his complete lack of NHL front office experience"? If there is an opportunity to walk that road, I'd rather have a guide who has done it before showing me what he did and does.

Except that's entirely ignoring the point I just made. Doesn't Lamoriello's success prove that "catalyzing" their development isn't necessary? By "easing" them into the GM's role, you're not helping them walk the same road, you're ensuring they take an entirely different and more conventional road.

And you're still avoiding the central issue. Nobody is objecting to the idea of Dubas/Hunter not being made the GM regardless of any other consideration, it's that the guy who was made the GM is someone who hasn't done a particularly good job of running the team's he's been running over the last five or ten years. The sort of "guiding" you're advocating could easily be done as a consultant, similar to what the team wanted to do with Scotty Bowman.

If what encourages you so much about the Dubas era is no ugly signings(and Robidas doesn't look like much of a signing right now) and a data driven approach then, again, Lamoriello's record in that regard is a legitimate concern, between things like Ryan Clowe and apparently thinking a player's appearance matters.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on September 16, 2015, 09:52:16 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that managing an NHL team in 2015 is substantially more complicated affair than it was 30 years ago.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 16, 2015, 09:57:45 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that managing an NHL team in 2015 is substantially more complicated affair than it was 30 years ago.

Really? Because I'd guess the opposite.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: RedLeaf on September 16, 2015, 10:04:46 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that managing an NHL team in 2015 is substantially more complicated affair than it was 30 years ago.

Really? Because I'd guess the opposite.

Im going to regret this, but do you care to elaborate?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 16, 2015, 10:56:12 AM
Im going to regret this, but do you care to elaborate?

I think that a lot of the technological advancements that have been made in the last 30 years likely make things a lot easier for management/scouts. Think about all the information and resources that are available with just a few clicks that weren't back then. I mean sure the CBA is a complicated beast, but that's why you have lawyers and capologists on your staff.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on September 16, 2015, 11:02:16 AM
I think that a lot of the technological advancements that have been made in the last 30 years likely make things a lot easier for management/scouts. Think about all the information and resources that are available with just a few clicks that weren't back then. I mean sure the CBA is a complicated beast, but that's why you have lawyers and capologists on your staff.

But, at the same time, teams these days consider a lot more information than they did 30 years ago. It's great that it's easier to access, but that doesn't really cut down the time in terms of processing, comparing, analyzing, etc., compared to the little info they went on in the mid 80s. There's more complications when it comes to dealing with the health of the players. The influx of European players has added the complexities of negotiating against teams in other leagues. The salary structure of the league has changed dramatically. There's a lot more going on now than there was 30 years ago. I'd say the overall job of running a team is more complicated, but that task is now split between more people, who have access to better resources and technology, which probably evens it out.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 16, 2015, 11:10:16 AM
But, at the same time, teams these days consider a lot more information than they did 30 years ago. It's great that it's easier to access, but that doesn't really cut down the time in terms of processing, comparing, analyzing, etc., compared to the little info they went on in the mid 80s. There's more complications when it comes to dealing with the health of the players. The influx of European players has added the complexities of negotiating against teams in other leagues. The salary structure of the league has changed dramatically. There's a lot more going on now than there was 30 years ago. I'd say the overall job of running a team is more complicated, but that task is now split between more people, who have access to better resources and technology, which probably evens it out.

I would really struggle with the idea that it's more complicated to deal with Europe right now with non-negotiable transfer fees than it was when you had to scout players behind the iron curtain and try to figure out which players were amenable to defection.

Likewise, the salary structure has changed but the salary structure has simplified. There is no haggling over rookie bonuses or signing players to personal service contracts with deferred payment structures. There's a standard player contract and salary arbitration. There aren't wild swings in player values from market to market. There aren't the ridiculous free agency compensation rules. Teams can no longer include cash in trades.

Regardless though, the whole argument is kind of a catch-22. Either things are largely similar now as they were then or the advice of anyone who cut their teeth then would have limited value because things are so different now.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on September 16, 2015, 11:21:13 AM
Regardless though, the whole argument is kind of a catch-22. Either things are largely similar now as they were then or the advice of anyone who cut their teeth then would have limited value because things are so different now.

I think the basic job is still largely the same. It's the details that have really changed. In some ways, things have simplified. In others, they've become more complicated or require more nuance, as some of the ways things have streamlined really just created different complications for management teams rather than eliminating complications entirely. Overall, I'd say the difficulty of doing the job probably hasn't shifted much.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 16, 2015, 11:27:35 AM
I think the basic job is still largely the same. It's the details that have really changed. In some ways, things have simplified. In others, they've become more complicated or require more nuance, as some of the ways things have streamlined really just created different complications for management teams rather than eliminating complications entirely. Overall, I'd say the difficulty of doing the job probably hasn't shifted much.

I think how I might phrase it is that doing the job is easier, or less complicated, but that doing the job really well, where you find a noticeable advantage on your rivals, is probably more difficult.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on September 16, 2015, 12:12:34 PM
People are allowed to raise concerns about the current structure. We don't need to pretend that everything this group does is divinely spun perfection in order to still have a generally positive outlook for the future.

You're right. I was exaggerating. I agree that Lou is the weak link in the group; I don't think it's much of a problem though.

Except that's entirely ignoring the point I just made. Doesn't Lamoriello's success prove that "catalyzing" their development isn't necessary? By "easing" them into the GM's role, you're not helping them walk the same road, you're ensuring they take an entirely different and more conventional road.
What was the timeline of Lamoriello's success coming into the league completely new to the NHL? He was hired in '87 and won the Cup run in 95, 00, 03. I wouldn't mind shortcutting a few of those intervening years in terms of managerial development. Is it detrimental to have fresh eyes paired with experience that is very familiar with the conventional? Is it not worthwhile to have someone who knows pretty much every other GM in the league, their tendencies, and pressure points?

And you're still avoiding the central issue. Nobody is objecting to the idea of Dubas/Hunter not being made the GM regardless of any other consideration, it's that the guy who was made the GM is someone who hasn't done a particularly good job of running the team's he's been running over the last five or ten years. The sort of "guiding" you're advocating could easily be done as a consultant, similar to what the team wanted to do with Scotty Bowman.

If what encourages you so much about the Dubas era is no ugly signings(and Robidas doesn't look like much of a signing right now) and a data driven approach then, again, Lamoriello's record in that regard is a legitimate concern, between things like Ryan Clowe and apparently thinking a player's appearance matters.

I do think Lou is in more of a consultative GM role, but with the full GM title, if that makes any difference to this discussion. He's got the signing authority, but Shanahan has insisted on the brain trust model to back those plays. If Lou wasn't open to input from them, he wouldn't have bothered signing here. By and large, a lot of Lou's flaws are covered by Dubas, Hunter, and Pridham. One of the things he brings to the table is the experience of developing a team culture that is fiercely loyal and family-oriented (hometown discounts, relationships extending post-trade/retirement). Sure that might have included grooming directives in the past, but I'm not convinced that will come into play here in this time frame.

Robidas was a July 1 signing, which preceded Dubas by a few weeks (July 22). I can't speak for the Clowe signing (and a cursory search makes it sound like a David Clarkson situation), but my feeling on the matter is that a mistake made yesterday is a lesson learned for tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on September 16, 2015, 12:12:50 PM
Well, regardless of how simple you think a job that commands $2-$3 million a year is, I'd venture that the board wasn't entirely comfortable with leaving the day-to-day activities of a $1billion dollar company product in the hands of a few people that have a combined 2 years of experience doing anything in the NHL.  Even Shanahan really doesn't have any experience running a company of this kind of size, and Lou has some experience doing a more President-type role. 

I think it was inevitable that they hired a grey-beard in a senior role to bring in some know-how on prioritizing, handling multi-million dollar contract negotiations with agents that might walk all over a Dubas or a Hunter, and to generally manage the rebuild process to Shanahan's plan.  Like most of you, I don't think Lou is here to engineer his own vision of an NHL team, I think he's here to help Shanahan with his.

It's not to say that Dubas or Hunter wouldn't learn this in time, I'm just not sure that ownership was willing to let them go through the growing pains of learning on the job, and especially given how important the next 2-3 years are to the franchise.     
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 16, 2015, 12:34:01 PM
What was the timeline of Lamoriello's success coming into the league completely new to the NHL? He was hired in '87 and won the Cup run in 95, 00, 03. I wouldn't mind shortcutting a few of those intervening years in terms of managerial development. Is it detrimental to have fresh eyes paired with experience that is very familiar with the conventional? Is it not worthwhile to have someone who knows pretty much every other GM in the league, their tendencies, and pressure points?

Is it? I don't know. I've never seen anything to indicate that it necessarily does and I can just as easily say that older executives can have a problem with flexibility and adapting to new things. I'm not sure why when it comes to every single tiny hockey decision we're supposed to be driven by data and objective analysis and then here we're to rely on the prospect of down-home "common sense".

Because objectively...what has all of that knowledge actually produced? If knowing all of these pressure points helped why was Lou's recent tenure with the Devils so mediocre? What contract did he sign that says "Boy, he sure can go toe to toe with any agent out there and eat his lunch".

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_team/New_Jersey_Devils/1 (http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_team/New_Jersey_Devils/1)

Which of these trades says "Oh man, Lou really used all that experience to commit larceny" to you?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007066.html (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007066.html)

Which draft pick in the post-cap era says "Man, he really exploited his knowledge of other GM's and their tendencies"?

I do think Lou is in more of a consultative GM role, but with the full GM title, if that makes any difference to this discussion. He's got the signing authority, but Shanahan has insisted on the brain trust model to back those plays. If Lou wasn't open to input from them, he wouldn't have bothered signing here. By and large, a lot of Lou's flaws are covered by Dubas, Hunter, and Pridham. One of the things he brings to the table is the experience of developing a team culture that is fiercely loyal and family-oriented (hometown discounts, relationships extending post-trade/retirement). Sure that might have included grooming directives in the past, but I'm not convinced that will come into play here in this time frame.

He's also got the "Experience" of the two best players he's had on his teams in the post-cap era choosing to go somewhere else. In fact, lots of notable Devils have chosen to move on voluntarily. Should that really be outweighed by the fact that he took care of Ken Daneyko?

This all started because people were saying that what concerned them was the fact that it didn't sound like Lamoriello's role was the "GM in name only" thing that we all assumed when he was brought on board. If that's the case, great, but this is predicated on indications to the contrary.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 16, 2015, 12:40:02 PM
Well, regardless of how simple you think a job that commands $2-$3 million a year is, I'd venture that the board wasn't entirely comfortable with leaving the day-to-day activities of a $1billion dollar company product in the hands of a few people that have a combined 2 years of experience doing anything in the NHL.  Even Shanahan really doesn't have any experience running a company of this kind of size, and Lou has some experience doing a more President-type role. 

Mark Hunter is 52 years old. He played in the NHL for more than a decade. He's got more than a decade running what has been by far the most successful major junior franchise in the country. The idea that he would be an out of left field candidate or even one viewed as being particularly risky is kind of ridiculous.

More to the point, I'd really hope that the people on the board would be able to look at this team's recent history and say that bad contracts get signed by people with tons of NHL experience. The salary structure is pretty simple in this league, contracts are straight-forward.

Regardless, I don't think this came from the board. If they were overly concerned with experience then, like you say, Shanahan wouldn't have been their guy.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on September 16, 2015, 01:39:59 PM

Mark Hunter is 52 years old. He played in the NHL for more than a decade. He's got more than a decade running what has been by far the most successful major junior franchise in the country. The idea that he would be an out of left field candidate or even one viewed as being particularly risky is kind of ridiculous.

Not ridiculous.  He has a very prominent role in an NHL team, just not enough experience for "the" role yet.

 
More to the point, I'd really hope that the people on the board would be able to look at this team's recent history and say that bad contracts get signed by people with tons of NHL experience. The salary structure is pretty simple in this league, contracts are straight-forward.

OK, so because some questionable decisions were made by an experienced person means that someone else with experience wouldn't help?

Regardless, I don't think this came from the board. If they were overly concerned with experience then, like you say, Shanahan wouldn't have been their guy.

Sure Shanahan can be their guy, they like his vision.  Nothing wrong with them suggesting he get an experienced NHL GM to help him effect it and develop his team.  I could see them being a little more comfortable with that.   
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 16, 2015, 01:50:06 PM
Not ridiculous.  He has a very prominent role in an NHL team, just not enough experience for "the" role yet.

Restating a premise isn't an argument. People have been successful NHL GM's without NHL experience. People have successfully run sports franchises without sports experience.

Hunter is neither. He's got NHL experience. He's run a major junior team. Nobody would blink twice if someone with his resume was hired to run a NHL team. He's not Mike Gillis.

OK, so because some questionable decisions were made by an experienced person means that someone else with experience wouldn't help?

No, but a reasonable and objective look at "experience" in this context would tell us that it doesn't mean much. It's certainly not particularly predictive of success. If Mark Hunter can't handle contract negotiations at 52 years old then a couple years in a NHL front office isn't likely to change that.

Sure Shanahan can be their guy, they like his vision.  Nothing wrong with them suggesting he get an experienced NHL GM to help him effect it and develop his team.  I could see them being a little more comfortable with that.   

Right. So experience is super important. Except when it isn't. And they wouldn't let someone run the franchise without it. Except for when they did.

Glad you cleared that up.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Potvin29 on September 17, 2015, 11:04:22 AM
Pour one out for the team broadcasters:


Quote
@simmonssteve
Leafs have become the first NHL team to have pushed the team broadcasters off the team charters.

Worth noting: Oddly enough from noted fact-checker Simmons, this appears to be incorrect based on replies to that tweet by some other media.  Leafs are not first to do this.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on September 17, 2015, 11:08:35 AM
Quote
@simmonssteve
Leafs have become the first NHL team to have pushed the team broadcasters off the team charters.

Worth noting: Oddly enough from noted fact-checker Simmons, this appears to be incorrect based on replies to that tweet by some other media.  Leafs are not first to do this.

I didn't realize they were on the team charters to start with. They shouldn't be. Give the players and coaches some space when they travel.

The somewhat amusing thing here is that the Leafs made a decision that will end up costing their ownership group a little more money. Nothing substantial, I would imagine, but, still amusing.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on September 17, 2015, 11:41:42 AM
I might think that they're doing this because of the painful season ahead with a team full of short-term rentals. 
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: LuncheonMeat on September 17, 2015, 12:05:58 PM
Quote
@simmonssteve
Leafs have become the first NHL team to have pushed the team broadcasters off the team charters.

Worth noting: Oddly enough from noted fact-checker Simmons, this appears to be incorrect based on replies to that tweet by some other media.  Leafs are not first to do this.

I didn't realize they were on the team charters to start with. They shouldn't be. Give the players and coaches some space when they travel.

The somewhat amusing thing here is that the Leafs made a decision that will end up costing their ownership group a little more money. Nothing substantial, I would imagine, but, still amusing.

When Simmons announced this on TSN radio this morning, he went on about how after 27 years Joe Bowen would no longer be allowed to fly on the charter. Like it was some sort of slap in the face to a hockey legend. Anything to stir things up when, like you mentioned, he/they shouldn't be traveling with the team to begin with.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 17, 2015, 01:27:22 PM
I didn't realize they were on the team charters to start with. They shouldn't be. Give the players and coaches some space when they travel.

Give them some space from the hard hitting investigative journalism of Joe Bowen and Paul Hendricks?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 17, 2015, 01:29:22 PM
When Simmons announced this on TSN radio this morning, he went on about how after 27 years Joe Bowen would no longer be allowed to fly on the charter. Like it was some sort of slap in the face to a hockey legend. Anything to stir things up when, like you mentioned, he/they shouldn't be traveling with the team to begin with.

And it's not like they're forcing those guys to bus or buy their own plane tickets. The team/ownership will still be flying them.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on September 17, 2015, 01:43:54 PM
Give them some space from the hard hitting investigative journalism of Joe Bowen and Paul Hendricks?

Well, just space in general where they're free from the media while in transit. It's probably not a big deal, but they get enough of it when they're in the arena. I just don't see the benefit of having embedded reporting, while I do see some from a separation - as limited as it may be.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 17, 2015, 02:01:03 PM
Well, just space in general where they're free from the media while in transit. It's probably not a big deal, but they get enough of it when they're in the arena. I just don't see the benefit of having embedded reporting, while I do see some from a separation - as limited as it may be.

Again, we're talking about team broadcasters. These guys are "media" in only the loosest definition of the term even before you factor in that everyone here is on the Rogers/Bell payroll. These guys travelling with the team to begin with is largely a holdover from the days when they were hired and fired by the teams and, in a lot of non-Leafs cases, they're still basically team employees. Watch a Coyotes game, for instance, and the Broadcasters read 30-40 ads trying to sell tickets(or, for that matter, any Blue Jays game before the team got good).

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing they're doing this but I really doubt there's any actual reason to do it.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: L K on September 17, 2015, 02:06:19 PM
Well, just space in general where they're free from the media while in transit. It's probably not a big deal, but they get enough of it when they're in the arena. I just don't see the benefit of having embedded reporting, while I do see some from a separation - as limited as it may be.

Again, we're talking about team broadcasters. These guys are "media" in only the loosest definition of the term even before you factor in that everyone here is on the Rogers/Bell payroll. These guys travelling with the team to begin with is largely a holdover from the days when they were hired and fired by the teams and, in a lot of non-Leafs cases, they're still basically team employees. Watch a Coyotes game, for instance, and the Broadcasters read 30-40 ads trying to sell tickets(or, for that matter, any Blue Jays game before the team got good).

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing they're doing this but I really doubt there's any actual reason to do it.

I'll be more impressed when they set up a be fair and balanced as a part of the media otherwise you lose your media access to the team/management system.  Simmons has already written a few garbage pieces that are baiting the organization and ripping on the players.  To me, that's a part of the Toronto culture that needs to change.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 17, 2015, 02:10:26 PM
I'll be more impressed when they set up a be fair and balanced as a part of the media otherwise you lose your media access to the team/management system.  Simmons has already written a few garbage pieces that are baiting the organization and ripping on the players.  To me, that's a part of the Toronto culture that needs to change.

So the only way to have media access is to write things that our corporate overlords approve of?

Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: L K on September 17, 2015, 02:25:03 PM
I'll be more impressed when they set up a be fair and balanced as a part of the media otherwise you lose your media access to the team/management system.  Simmons has already written a few garbage pieces that are baiting the organization and ripping on the players.  To me, that's a part of the Toronto culture that needs to change.

So the only way to have media access is to write things that our corporate overlords approve of?

No.  I'd just like to see some accountability.  I think there is a bit of a difference between writing a negative piece about the performance of the team and writing an essay on how fat Phil Kessel is and how much he loves hot dogs.  I don't think the Leafs need to develop the Blue Jays media that fawns over them and is afraid to ask any tough questions but I think there could be a little more professionalism out of them.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 17, 2015, 02:38:03 PM
No.  I'd just like to see some accountability.  I think there is a bit of a difference between writing a negative piece about the performance of the team and writing an essay on how fat Phil Kessel is and how much he loves hot dogs.  I don't think the Leafs need to develop the Blue Jays media that fawns over them and is afraid to ask any tough questions but I think there could be a little more professionalism out of them.

Well, except you're clearly saying yes. You're saying the team should dole out access based whether or not they approve of what someone writes, you just think they should have a low bar to clear. That's not a path I'd want the team to go down as a fan.

As far as accountability...that's on fans. I didn't read any of the Kessel hot dog stuff. If people did, if the people who write the stuff you find objectionable have an audience, then your beef is really with the fanbase, not with the media.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on September 17, 2015, 04:01:12 PM
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/13677788/nhl-toronto-maple-leafs-open-camp-high-standards

I stand corrected: Lou lays down the grooming 'guidelines'.

Quote
You see, Papa Lou Lamoriello met with a few core players the previous day, and the message was gentle, yet clearly sent. Just like during his days running the New Jersey Devils, the veteran general manager wants his players to look proper.

"Lou just wants us to be pros. Let's look like pros," goaltender Jonathan Bernier, one of the players in the meeting with Lamoriello, said in French on Thursday. "When you're on the road, always wear a suit. Your haircut, your facial hair, all that stuff."

Quote
Babcock's greatest challenge as coach of the Maple Leafs over the next few seasons will be to somehow stomach the meaningless losses in February while the team builds this thing up piece by piece and all the while not lose his mind.

Take, for example, this exchange with [...] Francois Gagnon of RDS on Thursday during Babcock's presser.

Gagnon: "You've been a winner ..."

Babcock interjecting: "That was past-tense, let's try that again."

Gagnon: "You are a winner."

Babcock: "Thank you."
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 17, 2015, 04:08:56 PM
Pictured: A distinct lack of profesionalism

(http://media.zuza.com/e/0/e0821135-0024-45cc-9c9a-345f6df0ed2d/K_Clark_front___Content.jpg)
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on September 17, 2015, 04:26:26 PM
http://www.nj.com/devils/index.ssf/2015/02/gm_lou_lamoriello_and_devils_players_answer_your_q.html
Quote
11. Coming from a guy with a huge beard born on the 13th, my question should be fairly obvious: Why is no facial hair allowed and why is a No. 13 sweater not allowed to be worn? From diofan34

"The word is called tradition. That's the identity of the Devils organization. Those are part of the systemic points that have given us our identity, like our home and away jerseys. Whether you look at the Yankees or the old Montreal Canadiens and their identity, this is the identity of the Devils. I look at it as something the players, and hopefully the fans, take pride in."

Seems to be more about uniformity than facial hair exactly (Does anyone watch Brooklyn Nine-Nine?). So to that end, everyone can shave, but not everyone can grow a professional looking beard.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 17, 2015, 04:31:18 PM

If I wanted to be a Devils fan I'd be a Devils fan. Maple Leafs tradition includes some sweet-ass moustaches:

(https://the1jasontaylor.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/11-lanny-mcdonald.jpg)
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on September 17, 2015, 04:32:01 PM
No.  I'd just like to see some accountability.  I think there is a bit of a difference between writing a negative piece about the performance of the team and writing an essay on how fat Phil Kessel is and how much he loves hot dogs.  I don't think the Leafs need to develop the Blue Jays media that fawns over them and is afraid to ask any tough questions but I think there could be a little more professionalism out of them.

Well, except you're clearly saying yes. You're saying the team should dole out access based whether or not they approve of what someone writes, you just think they should have a low bar to clear. That's not a path I'd want the team to go down as a fan.

As far as accountability...that's on fans. I didn't read any of the Kessel hot dog stuff. If people did, if the people who write the stuff you find objectionable have an audience, then your beef is really with the fanbase, not with the media.

I think there's some middle ground there though.  I mean, sure guys can write about whatever they want, but pandering to the lowest common denominator of fan is probably not the kind of stuff the Leafs want to encourage.

I like to think of it like the Leafs can dole out press passes to those that they choose to be worthy within reason...like Parliament Hill.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on September 17, 2015, 04:33:55 PM

If I wanted to be a Devils fan I'd be a Devils fan. Maple Leafs tradition includes some sweet-ass moustaches:


Two words:  Jamie Macoun. 
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 17, 2015, 04:34:45 PM
I think there's some middle ground there though.  I mean, sure guys can write about whatever they want, but pandering to the lowest common denominator of fan is probably not the kind of stuff the Leafs want to encourage.

And, likewise, I'm sure the NFL doesn't want to encourage reporters digging up all those pesky embarrassing stories that make them look bad.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on September 17, 2015, 04:40:18 PM
Seems to be more about uniformity than facial hair exactly (Does anyone watch Brooklyn Nine-Nine?). So to that end, everyone can shave, but not everyone can grow a professional looking beard.

I guess it makes some sense from that perspective, but still . . . instead of no facial, have a standard for properly groomed facial hair/not just stubble. It's either fully-formed and maintained, or you go clean shaven.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 17, 2015, 04:42:25 PM
Seems to be more about uniformity than facial hair exactly (Does anyone watch Brooklyn Nine-Nine?). So to that end, everyone can shave, but not everyone can grow a professional looking beard.

I guess it makes some sense from that perspective, but still . . . instead of no facial, have a standard for properly groomed facial hair/not just stubble. It's either fully-formed and maintained, or you go clean shaven.

Gosh, how many points would Doug Gilmour have scored if he'd managed to deal with that pesky stubble?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on September 17, 2015, 04:55:41 PM
Seems to be more about uniformity than facial hair exactly (Does anyone watch Brooklyn Nine-Nine?). So to that end, everyone can shave, but not everyone can grow a professional looking beard.

I guess it makes some sense from that perspective, but still . . . instead of no facial, have a standard for properly groomed facial hair/not just stubble. It's either fully-formed and maintained, or you go clean shaven.

Yeah that's how most people would do it and then no one would care. The policy sets them apart and goal was to get them to buy into a program with an air of exclusivity (like a cult!). It's dumb, but didn't seem to hurt the team (they can skate a bit faster with less facial hair mass and air resistance, I guess). Some players really do look better with the facial hair though (Winnik, Komarov).

For the Leafs today, it's an easy way for them to start ingratiating themselves with the bosses even before they hit the ice.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 17, 2015, 04:58:03 PM
The policy sets them apart and goal was to get them to buy into a program with an air of exclusivity (like a cult!).

Cults aren't exclusive. They just require that the chumps buying the e-readings believe whatever they're told and are willing to suspend their critical thinking long enough to buy into magical thinking and...

Yes, so like a cult.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on September 17, 2015, 05:03:46 PM
Seems to be more about uniformity than facial hair exactly (Does anyone watch Brooklyn Nine-Nine?). So to that end, everyone can shave, but not everyone can grow a professional looking beard.

I guess it makes some sense from that perspective, but still . . . instead of no facial, have a standard for properly groomed facial hair/not just stubble. It's either fully-formed and maintained, or you go clean shaven.

Or, Lou could drag himself out of the 19th century and acknowledge that a person's physical appearance has absolutely nothing to do with his/her job performance.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 17, 2015, 05:10:17 PM
Or, Lou could drag himself out of the 19th century and acknowledge that a person's physical appearance has absolutely nothing to do with his/her job performance.

Thank you. I feel like I'm having a stroke. This "makes sense"? This is a sport that, when everyone wants to win the most, their players commit to looking as scruffy and poorly groomed as possible.

For almost a solid year we've heard about how everything was going to be data-driven and rational. No more of Carlyle's old ways of thinking. Now the team's being run by John Lithgow from Footloose all of a sudden and he's talking about he wants to BE LIKE THE CANADIENS.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Tigger on September 17, 2015, 05:12:20 PM
Seems to be more about uniformity than facial hair exactly (Does anyone watch Brooklyn Nine-Nine?). So to that end, everyone can shave, but not everyone can grow a professional looking beard.

I guess it makes some sense from that perspective, but still . . . instead of no facial, have a standard for properly groomed facial hair/not just stubble. It's either fully-formed and maintained, or you go clean shaven.

Or, Lou could drag himself out of the 19th century and acknowledge that a person's physical appearance has absolutely nothing to do with his/her job performance.

I dunno, it seems to be about buying in/toeing the line overall. I mean, the same could be said about playoff beards.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Potvin29 on September 17, 2015, 05:12:53 PM
Doesn't really matter to me one way or the other.  Plenty of employers expect a certain look when their employees are at work.  I don't think it matters one way or the other here, but doesn't rate very high on my give-a-crap meter.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 17, 2015, 05:37:05 PM
I dunno, it seems to be about buying in/toeing the line overall. I mean, the same could be said about playoff beards.

Exactly. You can say the exact same thing about playoff beards. It doesn't matter. Every post season we get a mountain of incontrovertible evidence that players play hockey perfectly well regardless of their facial hair. Whether you grow a beard like a homeless Pirate like Scott Niedermayer or like a 9th grader who hasn't learned to shave yet like Sidney Crosby, their performance and the performance of their team is unchanged.

This is not a matter of playing into society's prejudices either, like maybe for a high profile lawyer you might impress a client less if you show up looking like a hungover Mall santa, hockey players actually don't get judged on things like this.

These are just rules for the sake of rules. It is the definition of unreasonable.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Bonsixx on September 17, 2015, 05:55:32 PM
Our only hope is the return of Tyler Flow-zak to rebel against this archaic system.

(http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/sports/leafs/2013/07/01/the_spin_is_tyler_bozak_done_with_leafs/tyler_bozak.jpg.size.xxlarge.promo.jpg)
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Bullfrog on September 17, 2015, 06:00:29 PM
I dunno, it seems to be about buying in/toeing the line overall. I mean, the same could be said about playoff beards.

Exactly. You can say the exact same thing about playoff beards. It doesn't matter. Every post season we get a mountain of incontrovertible evidence that players play hockey perfectly well regardless of their facial hair. Whether you grow a beard like a homeless Pirate like Scott Niedermayer or like a 9th grader who hasn't learned to shave yet like Sidney Crosby, their performance and the performance of their team is unchanged.

This is not a matter of playing into society's prejudices either, like maybe for a high profile lawyer you might impress a client less if you show up looking like a hungover Mall santa, hockey players actually don't get judged on things like this.

These are just rules for the sake of rules. It is the definition of unreasonable.

I can maybe get on board with "hey, trim that sucker up so you don't scare the kids at the hospital visit," and general guidelines on overall appearance, but I think any rule saying you have to shave is ridiculous.

My friend's boss makes him shave......but he has to wear a respirator and OH&S requires a tight-fit.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on September 17, 2015, 07:01:53 PM
Bernier: The biggest thing is hard work, that's going to be the biggest difference.

Reporter: So have you not worked hard previously?

Bernier: You know the hard work is going to pay-off here, just committing to working.

Reporter: Yes and I'm asking you then, did you not work hard in previous years?

Bernier (puzzled/pissed off look on his face): I don't know how to answer that question.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Zee on September 17, 2015, 07:11:53 PM
Bernier: The biggest thing is hard work, that's going to be the biggest difference.

Reporter: So have you not worked hard previously?

Bernier: You know the hard work is going to pay-off here, just committing to working.

Reporter: Yes and I'm asking you then, did you not work hard in previous years?

Bernier (puzzled/pissed off look on his face): I don't know how to answer that question.
He should have added "I know who Nelson Mandela is now"
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on September 17, 2015, 08:23:22 PM
Seems to be more about uniformity than facial hair exactly (Does anyone watch Brooklyn Nine-Nine?). So to that end, everyone can shave, but not everyone can grow a professional looking beard.

I guess it makes some sense from that perspective, but still . . . instead of no facial, have a standard for properly groomed facial hair/not just stubble. It's either fully-formed and maintained, or you go clean shaven.

Or, Lou could drag himself out of the 19th century and acknowledge that a person's physical appearance has absolutely nothing to do with his/her job performance.

It was the 18th century when facial hair fell out of fashion in the western world. Facial hair was quite popular again in the 19th century.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Potvin29 on September 21, 2015, 09:16:08 PM
Bob McKenzie 1-on-1 with Lamoriello: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/lamoriello-passionate-about-maple-leafs-project~709631
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 25, 2015, 03:17:41 PM
Bob McKenzie 1-on-1 with Lamoriello: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/lamoriello-passionate-about-maple-leafs-project~709631

I never really got a chance to go through the full interview, but TLN pointed out that Lou spoke about the whole media not flying with the Leafs thing (bolded part is Lou's answer, not-bolded is TLN's commentary):

"Yes, the charters will be strictly for the staff and the coaches and the players. It certainly has nothing to do with the (media); it has to do with what we're trying to do with the sports medicine program, and what we're doing with the coaching aspect, and what the players will be doing post-game and on the way." (10:35)

This is seriously cool. Team charter flights used to be all about playing cards and eating peanuts and sleeping poorly and wearing Beats by Dre headphones. Now, it looks like Toronto is going to be maximizing their time and resources in transit.

The sports medicine part? I imagine that means that players will be speaking with trainers on how they're feeling after games, getting bumps and bruises and muscle pulls checked out and getting worked on by massage therapists.

As for the coaching side of it, that likely means that some players may meet with coaches on the plane and go over strategies and review game tape. This is a new day and age after all, where WiFi in the air is becoming more common and teams can pull up whatever video they'd like on their laptops and tablets.

I'm sure the Leafs will still get all the rest and relaxation they require, but on long haul flights it certainly makes a lot of sense to make positive and constructive use of that time. It'll be a whole lot easier to accomplish these things without TV guys and writers on board.


Seems like a legitimate explanation.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 25, 2015, 06:03:01 PM
I never really got a chance to go through the full interview, but TLN pointed out that Lou spoke about the whole media not flying with the Leafs thing (bolded part is Lou's answer, not-bolded is TLN's commentary):

"Yes, the charters will be strictly for the staff and the coaches and the players. It certainly has nothing to do with the (media); it has to do with what we're trying to do with the sports medicine program, and what we're doing with the coaching aspect, and what the players will be doing post-game and on the way." (10:35)

This is seriously cool. Team charter flights used to be all about playing cards and eating peanuts and sleeping poorly and wearing Beats by Dre headphones. Now, it looks like Toronto is going to be maximizing their time and resources in transit.

The sports medicine part? I imagine that means that players will be speaking with trainers on how they're feeling after games, getting bumps and bruises and muscle pulls checked out and getting worked on by massage therapists.

As for the coaching side of it, that likely means that some players may meet with coaches on the plane and go over strategies and review game tape. This is a new day and age after all, where WiFi in the air is becoming more common and teams can pull up whatever video they'd like on their laptops and tablets.

I'm sure the Leafs will still get all the rest and relaxation they require, but on long haul flights it certainly makes a lot of sense to make positive and constructive use of that time. It'll be a whole lot easier to accomplish these things without TV guys and writers on board.


Seems like a legitimate explanation.

Leaving aside my doubts re: the efficacy of expecting players to do homework on the flights, this was never about "Writers" or legitimate media members. This was about team broadcasters.

Seriously, in what way does Joe Bowen not being on these flights make that easier?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: L K on September 25, 2015, 06:25:50 PM
I never really got a chance to go through the full interview, but TLN pointed out that Lou spoke about the whole media not flying with the Leafs thing (bolded part is Lou's answer, not-bolded is TLN's commentary):

"Yes, the charters will be strictly for the staff and the coaches and the players. It certainly has nothing to do with the (media); it has to do with what we're trying to do with the sports medicine program, and what we're doing with the coaching aspect, and what the players will be doing post-game and on the way." (10:35)

This is seriously cool. Team charter flights used to be all about playing cards and eating peanuts and sleeping poorly and wearing Beats by Dre headphones. Now, it looks like Toronto is going to be maximizing their time and resources in transit.

The sports medicine part? I imagine that means that players will be speaking with trainers on how they're feeling after games, getting bumps and bruises and muscle pulls checked out and getting worked on by massage therapists.

As for the coaching side of it, that likely means that some players may meet with coaches on the plane and go over strategies and review game tape. This is a new day and age after all, where WiFi in the air is becoming more common and teams can pull up whatever video they'd like on their laptops and tablets.

I'm sure the Leafs will still get all the rest and relaxation they require, but on long haul flights it certainly makes a lot of sense to make positive and constructive use of that time. It'll be a whole lot easier to accomplish these things without TV guys and writers on board.


Seems like a legitimate explanation.

Leaving aside my doubts re: the efficacy of expecting players to do homework on the flights, this was never about "Writers" or legitimate media members. This was about team broadcasters.

Seriously, in what way does Joe Bowen not being on these flights make that easier?

Kadri won't be able to look at a fat old white man and decide that he doesn't need to work hard because Bowen is eating a burger instead of doing pilates on the plane after a game?  Yeah, I mean I think the whole kicking the broadcasters off the plane thing was just more of Lou's "beards make you a rebel scum" decision.  It had nothing to do with actually creating a benefit.  It was done simply because Lou is old and it's how he has always done it.  Nothing more and nothing less.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on September 26, 2015, 11:15:58 AM
its not the beards or facial hair, its accountability for all aspects of behavior and it is just a symbol of such. If I am making 2 million plus a year then I don't care if my boss wants facial hair removed. Its nothing more than wearing the proper attire at the proper time, putting a good face on community envolvement and looking good.
If you have ever been out of work what do you do, put on your dirty jeans and beer taco stained tee, hippie sandles and hit the road looking for work? No you get a hair cut and a shave, put on some good cloths and then you hit the road. Lou will be with us for 2 perhaps 3 years until Dubas is groomed (sorry for the pun) and ready for the job. He will probably be more lax on the facial hair thing.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 26, 2015, 11:17:23 AM
its not the beards or facial hair, its accountability for all aspects of behavior and it is just a symbol of such.

Those words, in that order, are literally meaningless.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on September 26, 2015, 11:22:44 AM
what order would you prefer me to put them in Nik?  All I am saying is the lack of facial hair is totally symbolic and that this applies to everyone on the team. As all Management are saying is the Team is central, individuals are not.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 26, 2015, 11:26:21 AM

Fun fact, if you look up "symbolic" in your thesaurus, one of the suggestions is "meaningless".
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on September 26, 2015, 11:27:55 AM
Whats a thesaurus?  ;)
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Guru Tugginmypuddah on September 26, 2015, 11:31:42 AM
Whats a thesaurus?  ;)

It was a type of dinosaur.  Duh. 
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 26, 2015, 11:36:05 AM
If I am making 2 million plus a year then I don't care if my boss wants facial hair removed.


If I really need the job, then it doesn't matter if it's 2 million or 20,000 a year, there are things I'm willing to do I otherwise wouldn't.

If there are five different people who want to pay me 2 million dollars a year, then my tolerance for stupid rules and being treated like a child would decrease.

Its nothing more than wearing the proper attire at the proper time, putting a good face on community envolvement and looking good.

There's nothing improper about a beard or a moustache. They don't impede performance and they don't impact popularity. Some of the most popular Leafs in history have had facial hair. Involvement with the community is not negatively affected by someone having facial hair.

All of these things are demonstrably true. What you are saying is demonstrably untrue.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Deebo on September 26, 2015, 11:37:32 AM
its not the beards or facial hair, its accountability for all aspects of behavior and it is just a symbol of such. If I am making 2 million plus a year then I don't care if my boss wants facial hair removed.

What if there were 29 other places that are willing to pay you that same 2 million and didn't have stupid rules?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on September 26, 2015, 12:04:47 PM
tough crowd! If they want a beard (and I do have one), then they have the option of not being a Leaf and asking for a trade.  I am sure they would be accomodated. By the way I am in agreement with you but if my boss says stand on my head for 30 minutes a day and I am relatively happy with the rest of my work enviroment and making 2+ a year, I would probably do it.
Most business's are not democracy.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 26, 2015, 12:09:05 PM
David Price a couple of years ago said that he wouldn't sign with the Yankees because they have the same facial hair rule. How would you feel if the Jays had that rule and it was the sole reason for him not signing a long-term deal here?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 26, 2015, 12:18:40 PM
tough crowd! If they want a beard (and I do have one), then they have the option of not being a Leaf and asking for a trade.

Right. So why risk a player taking that option for something that will have no benefit to the club.   

I am sure they would be accomodated. By the way I am in agreement with you but if my boss says stand on my head for 30 minutes a day and I am relatively happy with the rest of my work enviroment and making 2+ a year, I would probably do it.

Most people who make two million dollars a year are, I'd guess, confident enough in their skills and worth that they wouldn't take garbage like that. That's because most people who make that money do so because that's what they're worth and they know they'd probably be worth a lot to other employers as well.

I don't make anything near that money but if I was asked to waste my time doing nonsense then I'm pretty confident I could go out and get a job somewhere they respected my time and talents enough not to fritter them away on nonsense.

Most business's are not democracy.

Effective management, even within an autocracy, would still value individual autonomy over mandated conformity where there's literally no benefit in the latter.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on September 26, 2015, 12:29:28 PM
http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/E_axCbFyIjNQQPYcyny1IQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3NfbGVnbztpbD1wbGFuZTtxPTc1O3c9NjAw/http://media.zenfs.com/en/person/Ysports/brent-burns-hockey-headshot-photo.jpg
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 26, 2015, 12:29:58 PM
David Price a couple of years ago said that he wouldn't sign with the Yankees because they have the same facial hair rule. How would you feel if the Jays had that rule and it was the sole reason for him not signing a long-term deal here?

Or along those lines:

Beards: Russell Martin, David Price, RA Dickey, Edwin Encarnacion, Chris Colabello
Scruffy: Josh Donaldson, Jose Bautista, Mark Buerhle, Justin Smoak
Goofy hair: Marcus Stroman

Does anyone want to make the argument that makes them less of a cohesive team? That it's negatively impacted their popularity in the community in anyway? That these guys are "improper" or that it's negatively affecting any of their play?

If someone said that the Yankees' facial hair policy gave them an edge over the Jays, we'd quite rightfully call that person a lunatic.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on September 26, 2015, 12:35:57 PM
Wearing suits to games really doesn't affect their abilities to play hockey as a team.

Is that a stupid rule too?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 26, 2015, 12:38:37 PM
Wearing suits to games really doesn't affect their abilities to play hockey as a team.

Is that a stupid rule too?

Um, yeah.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 26, 2015, 12:41:24 PM
I should add, suits are cool and people should wear them anyway, but if they don't want to that's cool.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on September 26, 2015, 12:42:30 PM
Wearing suits to games really doesn't affect their abilities to play hockey as a team.

Is that a stupid rule too?

Well for that matter why do you need to wear a suit anywhere?  Why does a lawyer *have* to wear a suit to a legal case?  Why does a CEO have to wear a suit to a business meeting?  My boss once went a business meeting with people he knew outside of work socially.  He was a little ticked that those people showed up to the business meeting wearing crocs.  I don't know if I would have been upset in the same circumstance.  His point was that they should have taken the time to look presentable.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 26, 2015, 12:45:57 PM
Wearing suits to games really doesn't affect their abilities to play hockey as a team.

Is that a stupid rule too?

Yes, albeit, not to the same extent. Or, at the very least, if someone wanted to make the argument that the sort of discipline or professionalism that wearing a suit implied set a certain standard that carried over into game preparation or off-ice behaviour we wouldn't have a mountain of evidence that clearly showed that the argument being made had no actual basis in truth(well, provided that person wouldn't accept that in other sports they don't require that and teams still manage to win games and championships)

Conversely, we have a ton of evidence that teams do just fine without a policy against facial hair. We have a ton of evidence that when players grow facial hair, they play just as well as they did without it.

Ask yourself this, if there was a team that said "Hey, show up to the rink in whatever you want, just be ready to play when you get there" and they won a couple cups, would that change your perception of the rule about suits? Because that's sort of like this, only if every team that ever won the Stanley Cup had guys in sweatpants.

Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 26, 2015, 12:56:09 PM

It's also worth noting, I suppose, that the uniformity(pardon the pun) of the rules about suits league-wide do make any individual rule to that effect marginally less stupid. So long as everyone has that expectation, then there's nothing to be lost by adhering to it. It's still meaningless, but it's not a disadvantage.

However being as it's clearly not a league-wide policy and there are clearly some players, including very good players, who would voluntarily choose to have facial hair then the same can't be said. Why in the world would you want to be the "We want the best possible players who are willing to conform to our grooming standards" team as opposed to the "We want the best possible players" team? Even if it's one player in a thousand who that would matter to, why do it?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on September 26, 2015, 01:10:32 PM
Wearing suits to games really doesn't affect their abilities to play hockey as a team.

Is that a stupid rule too?

Yes, albeit, not to the same extent. Or, at the very least, if someone wanted to make the argument that the sort of discipline or professionalism that wearing a suit implied set a certain standard that carried over into game preparation or off-ice behaviour we wouldn't have a mountain of evidence that clearly showed that the argument being made had no actual basis in truth(well, provided that person wouldn't accept that in other sports they don't require that and teams still manage to win games and championships)

Conversely, we have a ton of evidence that teams do just fine without a policy against facial hair. We have a ton of evidence that when players grow facial hair, they play just as well as they did without it.

Ask yourself this, if there was a team that said "Hey, show up to the rink in whatever you want, just be ready to play when you get there" and they won a couple cups, would that change your perception of the rule about suits? Because that's sort of like this, only if every team that ever won the Stanley Cup had guys in sweatpants.

Really, why does anybody have to wear uniforms, or "professional attire"? 

We should all be able to wear jeans and a t-shirt to work for comfort...or cargo shorts, they're super handy with all the pockets.  Even combing my hair...why should I have to look "professional" at the office?  How would that affect my ability to work?

Also, flip flops, and no socks ever in the summer.  Or socks with your flip-flops, whatever you want really.  It's not going to affect your job performance.

Or, perhaps a more professional appearance can create a better impression of the organization that you represent, and the organization wants to communicate that in order to earn more money/customers.  They're also willing to to forego those employees that don't want to conform to these types of policies since their brand is more important than the odd person who chooses to work somewhere else because he doesn't like to comb his hair. 
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 26, 2015, 01:14:48 PM
Really, why does anybody have to wear uniforms, or "professional attire"? 

We should all be able to wear jeans and a t-shirt to work for comfort...or cargo shorts, they're super handy with all the pockets.  Even combing my hair...why should I have to look "professional" at the office?  How would that affect my ability to work?

Also, flip flops, and no socks ever in the summer.  Or socks with your flip-flops, whatever you want really.  It's not going to affect your job performance.

Or, perhaps a more professional appearance can create a better impression of the organization that you represent, and the organization wants to communicate that in order to earn more money/customers.  They're also willing to to forego those employees that don't want to conform to these types of policies since their brand is more important than the odd person who chooses to work somewhere else because he doesn't like to comb his hair.

It's a fair point. Where would a company get to if they were run by some weirdo who went around all the time in a black turtleneck, jeans and sneakers?

Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on September 26, 2015, 01:27:33 PM
Really, why does anybody have to wear uniforms, or "professional attire"? 

We should all be able to wear jeans and a t-shirt to work for comfort...or cargo shorts, they're super handy with all the pockets.  Even combing my hair...why should I have to look "professional" at the office?  How would that affect my ability to work?

Also, flip flops, and no socks ever in the summer.  Or socks with your flip-flops, whatever you want really.  It's not going to affect your job performance.

Or, perhaps a more professional appearance can create a better impression of the organization that you represent, and the organization wants to communicate that in order to earn more money/customers.  They're also willing to to forego those employees that don't want to conform to these types of policies since their brand is more important than the odd person who chooses to work somewhere else because he doesn't like to comb his hair.

It's a fair point. Where would a company get to if they were run by some weirdo who went around all the time in a black turtleneck, jeans and sneakers?

That was his brand, and he didn't deviate from it.  He only wore black turtlenecks and jeans and sneakers.  It's the consistent look that he wanted to communicate.

So if the Leafs asked everyone to wear only black turtlenecks, Levi jeans,  and grey sneakers, that's OK with you?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 26, 2015, 01:31:05 PM
That was his brand, and he didn't deviate from it.  He only wore black turtlenecks and jeans and sneakers.  It's the consistent look that he wanted to communicate.

Fair point again. So if someone walked around looking like some dopey college age slacker, jeans, t-shirts, hoodies, flip-flops...that would really be bad news for business.

(http://blog.wtfjeans.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/273587-mark-zuckerberg-turns-28-ten-interesting-facts-about-the-facebook-foun-560x669.jpg)
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on September 26, 2015, 01:35:04 PM
That was his brand, and he didn't deviate from it.  He only wore black turtlenecks and jeans and sneakers.  It's the consistent look that he wanted to communicate.

Fair point again. So if someone walked around looking like some dopey college age slacker, jeans, t-shirts, hoodies, flip-flops...that would really be bad news for business.


Same thing, it's the brand he wanted to communicate, and it's his company.  He is also, like Jobs was, very consistent:

"I really want to clear my life to make it so that I have to make as few decisions as possible about anything except how to best serve this community," Zuckerberg said, after clarifying that he had "multiple same shirts."

http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerberg-same-t-shirt-2014-11
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 26, 2015, 01:51:08 PM
Same thing, it's the brand he wanted to communicate, and it's his company.  He is also, like Jobs was, very consistent:

He's consistent, but not uniform. Sometimes he wears other things. He, however, wears generally what he wants because it realizes that it doesn't matter. That nobody will or won't do business with Facebook depending on what shoes he wears. He's rejected the paradigm you're clinging to. Look up Sergey Brin or Elon Musk or just about anyone who's built a company in the last 20 years. Sometimes they wear suits, sometimes they don't. Some of them need haircuts. A lot of their companies don't have particularly strict dress codes so long as you get your work done.

You have it backwards. These guys didn't choose to wear what they do to establish a brand, their brands grew around them and what they wore. Look at the NBA, players in the NBA wear goofy stuff all the time. Does anyone take Russell Westbrook or Dwyane Wade less seriously as players because of it? Or does their talent as world-class athletes give legitimacy to what they wear?

So long as someone plays well in the actual Maple Leafs sweater? I couldn't possibly care less about what they wear on their own time. It doesn't effect how they play, it's not representative of who they are. It's a stupid rule.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: OldTimeHockey on September 27, 2015, 07:32:08 AM
Wearing suits to games really doesn't affect their abilities to play hockey as a team.

Is that a stupid rule too?

Well for that matter why do you need to wear a suit anywhere?  Why does a lawyer *have* to wear a suit to a legal case?  Why does a CEO have to wear a suit to a business meeting?  My boss once went a business meeting with people he knew outside of work socially.  He was a little ticked that those people showed up to the business meeting wearing crocs.  I don't know if I would have been upset in the same circumstance.  His point was that they should have taken the time to look presentable.

I'd be most upset that I knew someone socially that wore crocs.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on September 27, 2015, 10:03:08 AM
Wearing suits to games really doesn't affect their abilities to play hockey as a team.

Is that a stupid rule too?

Well for that matter why do you need to wear a suit anywhere?  Why does a lawyer *have* to wear a suit to a legal case?  Why does a CEO have to wear a suit to a business meeting?  My boss once went a business meeting with people he knew outside of work socially.  He was a little ticked that those people showed up to the business meeting wearing crocs.  I don't know if I would have been upset in the same circumstance.  His point was that they should have taken the time to look presentable.

I'd be most upset that I knew someone socially that wore crocs.

True :-).
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 29, 2015, 10:04:37 AM

Apparently after deciding not to let the radio broadcasters on team flights, Rogers/Bell have also decided not to pay for the broadcasters to go to away games. So from now on all radio broadcasts of road games will be called off a TV from a Toronto studio:

http://awfulannouncing.com/2015/toronto-maple-leafs-announcers-calling-road-games-from-a-studio-this-year.html (http://awfulannouncing.com/2015/toronto-maple-leafs-announcers-calling-road-games-from-a-studio-this-year.html)
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 29, 2015, 10:11:14 AM

Apparently after deciding not to let the radio broadcasters on team flights, Rogers/Bell have also decided not to pay for the broadcasters to go to away games. So from now on all radio broadcasts of road games will be called off a TV from a Toronto studio:

http://awfulannouncing.com/2015/toronto-maple-leafs-announcers-calling-road-games-from-a-studio-this-year.html (http://awfulannouncing.com/2015/toronto-maple-leafs-announcers-calling-road-games-from-a-studio-this-year.html)


Rogers/Bell quickly changed that yesterday, it's assumed from all the outrage on social media.

It wasn't even a controversy for long enough to actually get talked about here.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 29, 2015, 10:16:25 AM
Rogers/Bell quickly changed that yesterday, it's assumed from all the outrage on social media.

It wasn't even a controversy for long enough to actually get talked about here.

Neither company has announced anything to that effect, have they?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 29, 2015, 10:19:49 AM
Neither company has announced anything to that effect, have they?

Bowen and Ralph both "announced" it on twitter. I don't think Bell/Rogers actually ever officially commented on this. The news first broke from a tweet from Bowen as well.

This is all just pure speculation in my head, but I wouldn't be too surprised if this was all just a negotiation tactic from the broadcasters' side to rile up support for themselves. Maybe once they were kicked off the teams charter Bell and Rogers weren't giving them the accommodations they wanted and decided to rile things up? I don't know, I know Bell and Rogers can be cheap but surely they knew how people would have reacted to a bush-league move like that.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on September 29, 2015, 10:21:25 AM
Rogers/Bell quickly changed that yesterday, it's assumed from all the outrage on social media.

It wasn't even a controversy for long enough to actually get talked about here.

Neither company has announced anything to that effect, have they?

http://torontosportsmedia.com/sports-and-toronto/common-sense-prevails-joe-bowen-jim-ralph-on-road-with-toronto-maple-leafs/20197

Quote
Just heard from multiple sources that the decision to leave the on air talent at home while the Toronto Maple Leafs are on the road has been changed. Joe Bowen and Jim Ralph still have to fly with the Plebs on commercial airlines but they will be conducting the road games from the road arena.

It is a little bit unclear as to what exactly transpired. It sounds like the Leafs were taken aback by the combination of Joe’s tweet, the article here from earlier today and then the public bashing on social media and elsewhere the team took and the decision was either killed or reversed depending on how you look at things.

More later..
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on September 29, 2015, 10:24:42 AM

Apparently after deciding not to let the radio broadcasters on team flights, Rogers/Bell have also decided not to pay for the broadcasters to go to away games. So from now on all radio broadcasts of road games will be called off a TV from a Toronto studio:

http://awfulannouncing.com/2015/toronto-maple-leafs-announcers-calling-road-games-from-a-studio-this-year.html (http://awfulannouncing.com/2015/toronto-maple-leafs-announcers-calling-road-games-from-a-studio-this-year.html)


Rogers/Bell quickly changed that yesterday, it's assumed from all the outrage on social media.

It wasn't even a controversy for long enough to actually get talked about here.

That, or someone high up pointed out just how stupid that was and how little a financial impact sending the radio guys on the road to follow the team really has.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 29, 2015, 10:25:28 AM
Neither company has announced anything to that effect, have they?

Bowen and Ralph both "announced" it on twitter. I don't think Bell/Rogers actually ever officially commented on this. The news first broke from a tweet from Bowen as well.

This is all just pure speculation in my head, but I wouldn't be too surprised if this was all just a negotiation tactic from the broadcasters' side to rile up support for themselves. Maybe once they were kicked off the teams charter Bell and Rogers weren't giving them the accommodations they wanted and decided to rile things up? I don't know, I know Bell and Rogers can be cheap but surely they knew how people would have reacted to a bush-league move like that.

Well, my crotchety old-man aversion to twitter making me hopelessly out of touch aside, I doubt it. I think the explanation given of Lamoriello's decision creating a sudden problem for the Radio stations and their budgets makes a lot of sense. I know we like to think of Rogers or Bell having just one big Scrooge McDuck style vault to cover all of their businesses but the reality is that a sudden 6 figure shortfall in a radio station budget probably does create a situation that needs several layers of fixes.

Either way, it sure seems like an awful lot of press behind what remains a completely pointless policy.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on September 29, 2015, 03:54:50 PM
As someone who has worked in media marketing for most of 35 years, I can tell you Radio as we know it is dead or next to dead, on life support really, and has been the most fragmented advertising platform forever. Used to be relevant a tiny bit before the TV and then the Net came along.
Sorry but there is nothing to be fixed, except the Priest administering last rites.
Sorry Joe, I love you but da truth is da truth.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Al14 on September 29, 2015, 04:02:58 PM
As someone who has worked in media marketing for most of 35 years, I can tell you Radio as we know it is dead or next to dead, on life support really, and has been the most fragmented advertising platform forever. Used to be relevant a tiny bit before the TV and then the Net came along.
Sorry but there is nothing to be fixed, except the Priest administering last rites.
Sorry Joe, I love you but da truth is da truth.

If it weren't for the Automobile, I think radio would have been put to rest a long time ago!
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on September 29, 2015, 04:17:43 PM
As someone who has worked in media marketing for most of 35 years, I can tell you Radio as we know it is dead or next to dead, on life support really, and has been the most fragmented advertising platform forever. Used to be relevant a tiny bit before the TV and then the Net came along.
Sorry but there is nothing to be fixed, except the Priest administering last rites.
Sorry Joe, I love you but da truth is da truth.

That's funny, because a lot of people who work in media research will tell you differently. It's not as strong as it used to be, but it hasn't seen as significant a decline over the last 20 or so years as people lead you to believe. There are still a lot of people who listen to the radio in their cars, a lot of businesses that filter radio in, etc. It's not a great medium for younger audiences, but for something targeted like Leaf broadcasts, the numbers wouldn't have changed all that much. People who listen in their cars are still going to listen in their cars. It's a stagnant medium, but it's not as close to death as you're making it sound.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 29, 2015, 11:43:49 PM
As someone who has worked in media marketing for most of 35 years, I can tell you Radio as we know it is dead or next to dead, on life support really, and has been the most fragmented advertising platform forever. Used to be relevant a tiny bit before the TV and then the Net came along.
Sorry but there is nothing to be fixed, except the Priest administering last rites.
Sorry Joe, I love you but da truth is da truth.

That's funny, because a lot of people who work in media research will tell you differently. It's not as strong as it used to be, but it hasn't seen as significant a decline over the last 20 or so years as people lead you to believe. There are still a lot of people who listen to the radio in their cars, a lot of businesses that filter radio in, etc. It's not a great medium for younger audiences, but for something targeted like Leaf broadcasts, the numbers wouldn't have changed all that much. People who listen in their cars are still going to listen in their cars. It's a stagnant medium, but it's not as close to death as you're making it sound.

I mean, if nothing else it sure seems like Bell and Rogers have invested pretty heavily in trying to push their radio business in recent years.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on September 30, 2015, 08:38:23 AM
I mean, if nothing else it sure seems like Bell and Rogers have invested pretty heavily in trying to push their radio business in recent years.

Not surprising. Of the major media, it's the cheapest to produce, so it has the best opportunity for return on investment.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on September 30, 2015, 08:56:27 AM
most people with a few bucks in their pocket do listen to radio, Sirius Radio with virtually few adverts. If your business can identify its direct target market and can identify the station that direct market does listen to then radio could be effective.  Broader spectrum business are better off to use TV or publications suited to folks who would purchase their products based on demographic readership.
I have sold both TV and Radio mediums, and produced, directed in both mediums. As well as a host of other mediums.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 30, 2015, 08:58:52 AM
I mean, if nothing else it sure seems like Bell and Rogers have invested pretty heavily in trying to push their radio business in recent years.

Not surprising. Of the major media, it's the cheapest to produce, so it has the best opportunity for return on investment.

I also have to assume that podcasting has stemmed the tide somewhat, although I don't know how effectively anyone is monetizing that.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on September 30, 2015, 09:07:31 AM
In regards to effective advertising is to choose the medium or mediums that directly targets the market they are sellling to.  For example you wouldn't  advertise a chair master on  a cartoon channel, but you may want to advertise it in the Snowbird Association magazine.
Of course Internet and the recession has pounded on print adverting, however print is still a very valid medium.
Budgets constraints are also a huge part of where a company advertises.  I see a lot of companies throwing there money away on where they advertise (or not advertise).  Radio is a very fragmented medium so really only works for business's that have researched the demographic listening to said station.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on September 30, 2015, 09:09:53 AM
I also have to assume that podcasting has stemmed the tide somewhat, although I don't know how effectively anyone is monetizing that.

Yeah, that's a tough one. I'm not super into podcasts, so I don't really know a ton about them, but I don't imagine people would be happy with advertising breaks. I know there are some pay-to-download types, but unless they're fairly cheap and reasonably popular, that's not going to lead to much of a windfall, either. The ideal way to monetize a podcast would be product placement/sponsorship - and, even then, it would take a fairly substantial level of popularity to make it a significant revenue source.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 30, 2015, 09:19:56 AM
I also have to assume that podcasting has stemmed the tide somewhat, although I don't know how effectively anyone is monetizing that.

Yeah, that's a tough one. I'm not super into podcasts, so I don't really know a ton about them, but I don't imagine people would be happy with advertising breaks. I know there are some pay-to-download types, but unless they're fairly cheap and reasonably popular, that's not going to lead to much of a windfall, either. The ideal way to monetize a podcast would be product placement/sponsorship - and, even then, it would take a fairly substantial level of popularity to make it a significant revenue source.

I was more referring to the fact that a station like 590 here in Toronto makes all of their traditional radio shows also available as podcasts. I barely listen to any live radio but I do listen to some of their shows that way.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on September 30, 2015, 09:34:57 AM
I was more referring to the fact that a station like 590 here in Toronto makes all of their traditional radio shows also available as podcasts. I barely listen to any live radio but I do listen to some of their shows that way.

Oh. Well, for those, they likely to factor in that audience when setting advertising rates. It probably doesn't create a significant increase, but it definitely would mean they'd charge sponsors and such a little more, since it does extend their reach.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 30, 2015, 10:44:25 AM
Shockingly enough, some of the executives with the companies that own the Maple Leafs might not be overly thrilled with being out half a million dollars for no real reason.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/lou-lamoriellos-travel-policy-not-the-leafs-final-turbulence-in-toronto/article26595356/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/lou-lamoriellos-travel-policy-not-the-leafs-final-turbulence-in-toronto/article26595356/)

Quote
Lamoriello might have won the first round, but in a rare show of unanimity, senior managers at both Bell and Rogers are unhappy with the policy. These are people who have the ears of Rogers Communications Inc. chief executive officer Guy Laurence and BCE Inc. CEO George Cope, who both sit on the board of directors of Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment.

One of those senior executives said Monday the issue of broadcasters riding on the team charter is not going away. He and his colleagues at the other telco do not want to see Lamoriello operate the Leafs the same way he ran the New Jersey Devils from 1987 to 2015, where even the most minor decisions required his stamp of approval. They plan to keep the pressure on the Leafs GM.

And my nostalgia for the Dubas-Hunter era grows.

Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 30, 2015, 11:05:20 AM
I'll admit, this probably should have been something discussed in the interviews before Lou got the job. I'm still going to wait for the first hockey-related blunder that we can reasonably pin on Lou, but having ownership squabbling with your GM sure isn't ideal.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on September 30, 2015, 11:07:40 AM
Well then, at least we'll have some interesting things to discuss this season.

Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on September 30, 2015, 11:11:30 AM
Let's see, first a 1970s-era dress and personal appearance code, and then a 1960s-era we-are-a-beleaguered-band-of-brothers mentality that comes right out of the Vince Lombardi playbook.  Predictably, this is going well.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 30, 2015, 11:24:04 AM
Let's see, first a 1970s-era dress and personal appearance code, and then a 1960s-era we-are-a-beleaguered-band-of-brothers mentality that comes right out of the Vince Lombardi playbook.  Predictably, this is going well.

I feel like that's unfair to the 1970's, as evidenced by another loser Lou Lamoriello would have called a dirty hippy:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-23P_yBpwz20/Tmb4Obz9t0I/AAAAAAAAMQI/Arix-hxp1OU/s400/larry.jpg)
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 30, 2015, 11:30:56 AM
See, I'm really starting to come around to the idea that the plan genuinely was to not hire a GM, or to hire the sort of perfunctory GM in name only sort of guy that we all assumed. Then Lamoriello became available and Shanahan just sort of lost his mind for a while. He heard all of the "no experience" talk and sort of blinked. He went way, way overboard to compensate and took the train off the tracks they'd laid.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Bullfrog on September 30, 2015, 11:47:26 AM
And my nostalgia for the Dubas-Hunter era grows.

I'm with you on that one. It was great while it lasted.

Admittedly, I'm not too concerned about mustaches and flying Bowens, but it appeared to me as though the Dubas-Hunter team wasn't having any particular troubles.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Potvin29 on September 30, 2015, 11:51:20 AM
Quote
Fans of the Toronto Maple Leafs rejoiced this week when team owners dropped plans for radio broadcasters Joe Bowen and Jim Ralph to call road games off a television monitor in a Toronto studio.

Riiiiiight.

Media on media on media here.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on September 30, 2015, 11:55:11 AM
Admittedly, I'm not too concerned about mustaches and flying Bowens, but it appeared to me as though the Dubas-Hunter team wasn't having any particular troubles.

Just to clear it up, I don't think that individually any of these issues represent something that is in and of itself important but rather that it's the inflexibility and lack of open-mindedness they represent. What was great about the Dubas-Hunter(and Babcock, while we're at it) era is that they consistently said things that were smart. That made sense. Things like saying that the best way to alleviate media pressure is for the team to be good or the emphasis on speed and skill.

Now we're hearing a lot of the exact same "culture change" stuff we heard with Burke and seemingly reasonable people are bending over backwards to explain why facial hair or no broadcasters on team flights have anything in the way of logic behind them.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Bullfrog on September 30, 2015, 02:31:41 PM
I got what you were saying, (and I feel the same way), I just wanted to put "flying Bowens" into a post for some reason.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on September 30, 2015, 02:34:10 PM
I got what you were saying, (and I feel the same way), I just wanted to put "flying Bowens" into a post for some reason.

As in, you don't give a flying Bowen?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on October 02, 2015, 01:50:34 PM
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/13789503/nhl-toronto-maple-leafs-gm-lou-lamoriello-talks-transition-new-jersey

Quote
LeBrun: You are turning 73 later this month [Oct. 21]. My mother-in-law is 73 and she has a place in Florida where she enjoys her retirement. So the question is: Why? Why would you want this incredible challenge, which comes with all that pressure, at this point in your life?

Lamoriello: I think it's a great question. My family asked me the same question, from my immediate family to my brother and my sister. But I think it's my makeup, that's my personality. And also the people involved, it wasn't something that I was thinking of or looking for. ... When Brendan [Shanahan] spoke to me about it, it was intriguing. After so many conversations, it became a challenge. The most important thing is your health, how do you feel? And the last five years certainly in New Jersey have been nothing but a roller coaster because of a lot of different things. I take full responsibility, but there are a lot of things that were not on the surface that you did for the better of the organization. I thought that this would be something that I would enjoy, because I love the game. And the challenge of having success, that's what you do, you compete against yourself. Toronto, what better place? What better hockey mecca? I've always been of the opinion -- and I have to be careful how this comes out -- but I always thought Toronto should be the Yankees of the National Hockey League.

Hence the facial hair guidelines, I guess.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 02, 2015, 01:58:50 PM

I don't want to cheer for the Yankees. If I wanted to cheer for "The Yankees of the NHL" I'd be cheering for the Canadiens.

You don't get to just invent a tradition for a 100 year old organization. You respect its existing tradition.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on October 02, 2015, 02:03:40 PM

I don't want to cheer for the Yankees. If I wanted to cheer for "The Yankees of the NHL" I'd be cheering for the Canadiens.

You don't get to just invent a tradition for a 100 year old organization. You respect its existing tradition.

OK, I'll bite...the Canadiens are like the Yankees in that everyone hates their fans?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 02, 2015, 02:05:51 PM

I don't want to cheer for the Yankees. If I wanted to cheer for "The Yankees of the NHL" I'd be cheering for the Canadiens.

You don't get to just invent a tradition for a 100 year old organization. You respect its existing tradition.

OK, I'll bite...the Canadiens are like the Yankees in that everyone hates their fans?

Well, I suppose the key similarity would be their respective success.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on October 02, 2015, 02:14:36 PM

I don't want to cheer for the Yankees. If I wanted to cheer for "The Yankees of the NHL" I'd be cheering for the Canadiens.

You don't get to just invent a tradition for a 100 year old organization. You respect its existing tradition.

OK, I'll bite...the Canadiens are like the Yankees in that everyone hates their fans?

Well, I suppose the key similarity would be their respective success.

I like mine better.  I don't much like yours. 
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 02, 2015, 02:18:58 PM
I like mine better.  I don't much like yours.

I like to think of ours going hand in hand.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on October 02, 2015, 03:07:55 PM

I don't want to cheer for the Yankees. If I wanted to cheer for "The Yankees of the NHL" I'd be cheering for the Canadiens.

You don't get to just invent a tradition for a 100 year old organization. You respect its existing tradition.

Yeah. The Leafs are much more like the Red Sox. Now, what we need is our own pack of idiots to go out and win some championships!
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 02, 2015, 03:57:37 PM

I don't want to cheer for the Yankees. If I wanted to cheer for "The Yankees of the NHL" I'd be cheering for the Canadiens.

You don't get to just invent a tradition for a 100 year old organization. You respect its existing tradition.

Yeah. The Leafs are much more like the Red Sox. Now, what we need is our own pack of idiots to go out and win some championships!

A long championship drought created in part by previous ownership's bigotry, uncomfortable relationship between team ownership and the media that should be covering them, a great player in the 40's and 50's named Theodore...yup. We're the Red Sox.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: L K on October 02, 2015, 05:39:09 PM
Admittedly, I'm not too concerned about mustaches and flying Bowens, but it appeared to me as though the Dubas-Hunter team wasn't having any particular troubles.

Just to clear it up, I don't think that individually any of these issues represent something that is in and of itself important but rather that it's the inflexibility and lack of open-mindedness they represent. What was great about the Dubas-Hunter(and Babcock, while we're at it) era is that they consistently said things that were smart. That made sense. Things like saying that the best way to alleviate media pressure is for the team to be good or the emphasis on speed and skill.

Now we're hearing a lot of the exact same "culture change" stuff we heard with Burke and seemingly reasonable people are bending over backwards to explain why facial hair or no broadcasters on team flights have anything in the way of logic behind them.

To be fair, I've had facial hair for years.  I recently shaved and now I feel like I'm more of a team player at work.  I wasn't before.  I'm pretty sure Lou is just a fan of Dan Harmon/Community and is trying to get the Leafs out of the Darkest Timeline.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: No.92 on October 02, 2015, 06:08:53 PM
I'm cool with no media on the plane. It's just another distraction they don't need.  They are free to discuss stuff like strategy on the plane if needed.  Or the players have to constantly watch what they are saying in front of the media.  It makes no difference if they fly separately other than cost. So why not.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on October 02, 2015, 07:01:55 PM
To be fair, I've had facial hair for years.  I recently shaved and now I feel like I'm more of a team player at work.  I wasn't before.  I'm pretty sure Lou is just a fan of Dan Harmon/Community and is trying to get the Leafs out of the Darkest Timeline.

(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/abed-thumbs-up.gif)
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 04, 2015, 04:55:15 PM
I'm cool with no media on the plane. It's just another distraction they don't need.  They are free to discuss stuff like strategy on the plane if needed.  Or the players have to constantly watch what they are saying in front of the media.

Again, it's team broadcasters, not "the media". We're talking about people who are MLSE employees.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on October 04, 2015, 04:56:18 PM
To be fair, I've had facial hair for years.  I recently shaved and now I feel like I'm more of a team player at work.  I wasn't before.  I'm pretty sure Lou is just a fan of Dan Harmon/Community and is trying to get the Leafs out of the Darkest Timeline.

See, whereas I have ample evidence that I'm a jerk with or without a beard.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on November 05, 2015, 11:01:56 AM
(http://techiegiveways.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/18271-good-news-everyone-i-was-just-kidding-professor-farnsworth-wallpaper-1280x1280-1-750x410.jpg)

I heard that Kyle Dubas will be speaking to the Leafs Lunch crew tomorrow at 12:30 (TSN 1050).
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on November 05, 2015, 01:33:13 PM
Looked like Komrade K was sporting his Fu Man Chu sort of last night. Perhaps they have relaxed the rules. If not Kadri will probably have to shave 4 or 5 times a day
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on November 06, 2015, 02:20:22 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/dubas-nylander-leivo-impressing-for-marlies-1.389268

Transcript in the Marlies section, as the conversation is strictly Marlie-talk: http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=3318.msg241718#msg241718

Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on November 10, 2015, 02:45:04 PM
Brendan Shanahan on TSN 1050 with Dave Naylor.
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/10/brendan-shanahan-ive-been-proud-of-this-team/

Quote
We know last season was a really tough one for the Maple Leafs. And yet, in the win-loss column this year, this one has been equally as difficult. I’d like to hear what you’re seeing on the ice night after night in terms of the team’s overall performance.
Shanahan: I think that we really prepared ourselves and prepared our fans and prepared our owners and prepared everybody for what had to happen here in order for us to make what we felt were the right steps necessary to not just have a team that can’t contend for the cup, but a team that, once you arrive in that contention category, could sustain it over a number of years. I’ve been really pleased. The competitive side of you, when you go out to play every game, you want to win. But not just how many guys have taken to coach Babcock’s philosophy, but the right guys have. The guys we were maybe a little bit concerned [about] – we really need this guy to step up, and this guy to buy in. I’ve been proud of this team. We haven’t won as many games as we may have deserved, but you go into Montreal and you lose by a goal, and you throw 52 shots on net on, at the time, the hottest team in the NHL. You compare our record with the record we had last year at this time – we had a winning record at this time. But I didn’t see a light at the end of the tunnel. I see one now. I like the way our prospects are playing, but I really like the way our guys are playing and the foundation Mike is laying.

Last season, before Mike Babcock and Lou Lamoriello got here, you made a very concerted effort to let the market here know what you were doing, what the plan was, and how long it was going to take. Why did you do all that? We haven’t seen that in this city. Not just the fact that you were doing it, but you went to such extent to explain it to the market and the fans here.
Shanahan: I think during the season that it wasn’t really appropriate to say certain things that I felt. Not to say I wasn’t saying them to people internally, to people within the organization. Everyone’s got a boss. I’ve got a board. Explaining it to them what we need to do to really become what the Toronto Maple Leafs deserve to be. When the season ended, I addressed the media and the fans. I don’t think I did anything except be as honest as I could be. I pulled no punches. I’m respectful person; I try to be to as many individuals as I can. I walked away from that press conference at the end of the season and people were saying that was refreshing. I just told the truth. I think that we’ve got a sophisticated market of media, of fans. I don’t think anybody here wants us to lose. I don’t buy the excuses I’ve heard in the past that it’s too hard to play here or the media is happier when we’re losing because it’s better for the news and better for ratings. I just thought they were all excuses. Doesn’t mean it’s easy to do, but like I said I just spoke from the heart and I just spoke as honestly as I could.

You’ve always believed in the notion of possibility in this market, but why did you believe in it?
Shanahan: I guess I just have the mindset that, if you show me one mountain and ask me to climb it, but before you do you point to another one and say it’s bigger, I want to go climb that one. That’s sort of the same philosophy I went after Mike Babcock [with] and I was one of the few people who thought he would come here to Toronto. Same with Lou Lamoriello. Same with Mark Hunter. Kyle Dubas. Run down the list of the guys we’ve brought in over the last year and a half, and they were all very comfortable and had safe and secure situations, but they all saw the potential of what we could be. Having grown up here, having grown up a Maple Leaf fan my whole life and never really considered cheering for another team as a kid, but also recognizing where some of the warts were and some of the frustrations were, I just saw the Toronto Maple Leafs as a tremendous place for potential. With a lot of hard work and some breaks, we plan to get there.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on November 16, 2015, 09:32:24 AM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/lou-lamoriello-toronto-maple-leafs-plan-marlies-culture-nylander-marner-kyle-dubas-mark-hunter-brendan-shanahan/

Quote
Even as a crop of 2014 and 2015 first-rounders — Dylan Larkin, Connor McDavid, Jack Eichel, Nikolaj Ehlers — prove nightly that, yes, teenagers can contribute at the NHL level, the rebuilding Leafs resist the allure of a youthful injection of offence, anemic two-goals-a-game average be damned.

“Temptations are everything in life,” admitted general manager Lou Lamoriello, during an appearance with Gord Stellick and Todd Hlushko on Sportsnet 590 The Fan.

"You have to be careful: Is this the right thing for the big picture?"

So, if scoring goals and winning a few NHL games isn't the right thing, what is?

The Maple Leafs' plan, Lamoriello explained, places no value on instant, temporary success. Rather, the goal is to build a foundation for both team and individual achievement that is sustainable for years.

Though Lamoriello said internal discussions on prospects are held daily between him, president Brendan Shanahan, assistant general manager Kyle Dubas, director of player personnel Mark Hunter, assistant to the GM Brendan Pridham, and coach Mike Babcock, the organization must be certain talents like Nylander and Marner enter a dressing room that won't cause them to regress.

Despite being hired into a previously established front office by Shanahan, a former employee of his own, Lamoriello has quickly realized that Shanahan's group is comprised of men he would've hired himself.

"Mark Hunter is just a superstar in what he does and just a pleasure to be around as far as his honesty," Lamoriello said. Then he heaped another spoonful of praise on the "extremely intelligent" Dubas.

As for the players, the first step is to discover which ones on the current big-club roster want to be part of the reformed Maple Leafs culture. Who is willing to "pay the price" to compete for a Stanley Cup?

Once management discovers who's buying in, decisions on individual players will be made.

"Then the young prospect that you have, you feel comfortable about bringing them into an environment that's going to allow them to progress and move and not be drawn in different directions," Lamoriello explained.

"Once you get that room straightened out and you get that work ethic, you get that system orientated, you get that logo on the front of the jersey is what matters, not the name [on the back], then we'll know more about where we're going."
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on November 16, 2015, 10:20:19 AM
To add to the link you posted, Nylander now at 19(8g/11a/1.36PPG) in 14 and Marner is at 32(11g/21a/2PPG) in 16.



Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on November 18, 2015, 11:44:40 AM
Part I: Brendan Shanahan Gets "Puck Possessed" (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/13/brendan-shanahan-russian-5-new-generation-maple-leafs-part-shanny-gets-puck-possessed/)
Part II: Reversing the Curse (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/16/brendan-shanahan-the-russian-5-and-the-new-generation-maple-leafs-part-ii-reversing-the-curse/)
Part III: Shanny Listens to his Leaf Gut (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/18/shanny-listens-to-his-leaf-gut-part-iii/)
Part IV: Nylander, Kapanen and Shanny’s Fancy Foreign Friends (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/20/nylander-kapanen-and-shannys-fancy-foreign-friends-part-iv/)
Part V: Shanahan and Soshnikov - the Kid Who's Scared of Nothing (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/22/shanahan-soshnikov-kid-whos-scared-nothing-part-v/)

This is a series of analyses from the guy that wrote the Timashov article (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/07/26/one-eyed-toronto-maple-leafs-reporter-is-king/) on our Management team's influences over their careers (specifically Shanahan) and how it has changed the direction of the Toronto Maple Leafs from the past 40+ years.

It's not my favourite writing style, but the point is clear and really fun to read about.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on November 18, 2015, 04:16:51 PM
Part I: Brendan Shanahan Gets "Puck Possessed" (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/13/brendan-shanahan-russian-5-new-generation-maple-leafs-part-shanny-gets-puck-possessed/)
Part II: Reversing the Curse (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/16/brendan-shanahan-the-russian-5-and-the-new-generation-maple-leafs-part-ii-reversing-the-curse/)
Part III: Shanny Listens to his Leaf Gut (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/18/shanny-listens-to-his-leaf-gut-part-iii/)
Part IV: to be published
Part V: to be published

This is a series of analyses from the guy that wrote the Timashov article (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/07/26/one-eyed-toronto-maple-leafs-reporter-is-king/) on our Management team's influences over their careers (specifically Shanahan) and how it has changed the direction of the Toronto Maple Leafs from the past 40+ years.

It's not my favourite writing style, but the point is clear and really fun to read about.

I read part 1 and 2 fairly recently and his writing style is atrocious. I like the content though, just not how he presents it.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on November 19, 2015, 09:36:18 AM
I read part 1 and 2 fairly recently and his writing style is atrocious. I like the content though, just not how he presents it.

Writing style I can easily ignore. The content, the research, and the positioning of the facts is what I enjoyed.  I didn't get into hockey seriously until 2000, so I missed out on things like the Russian 5, but the quotes about Scotty Bowman's observations resonated with what I saw in the league back then.

I really dug this Brendan Shanahan quote as well:
Quote
When there's only one potato left on the plate, my fork's already in it.

Not mentioned so far was how heavily Shanahan pursued Nylander at the 2014 draft. Mirtle had an article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/maple-leafs-president-no-mere-figurehead/article19387163/) about that shortly following the draft.

Quote
[Shanahan] became particularly useful given slick Swedish forward William Nylander was one of the scouting staff’s top targets at eighth overall.

Shanahan and Nylander pčre played the 2006-07 season together on the New York Rangers, are of a similar age and get along very well, meaning the Leafs had some unique insight into their potential pick’s background and upbringing.

By the time the draft weekend came around, Shanahan felt he had such a good grasp on William Nylander’s personality and promise that he found the fact some were questioning his character in the lead-up to Friday humorous.

More importantly, those scouting reports were potentially beneficial to the Leafs, who wanted him to slip to their pick.

“I knew it wasn’t true,” Shanahan said. “I did a lot of homework on him.

“I called players that I played with in Detroit that had played with William over in Sweden. … To be honest with you, I did it a while ago.

“Everybody I talked to, people whose opinions I really respect, guys who are in dressing rooms, couldn’t say enough about the kid.”
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on November 23, 2015, 09:13:18 AM
Part I: Brendan Shanahan Gets "Puck Possessed" (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/13/brendan-shanahan-russian-5-new-generation-maple-leafs-part-shanny-gets-puck-possessed/)
Part II: Reversing the Curse (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/16/brendan-shanahan-the-russian-5-and-the-new-generation-maple-leafs-part-ii-reversing-the-curse/)
Part III: Shanny Listens to his Leaf Gut (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/18/shanny-listens-to-his-leaf-gut-part-iii/)
Part IV: Nylander, Kapanen and Shanny’s Fancy Foreign Friends (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/20/nylander-kapanen-and-shannys-fancy-foreign-friends-part-iv/)
Part V: Shanahan and Soshnikov - the Kid Who's Scared of Nothing (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/11/22/shanahan-soshnikov-kid-whos-scared-nothing-part-v/)

Updated the list with the new stuff.

Does the author have a string board (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StringTheory) centered around Shanahan?

Anyway, he continues to highlight the Leafs' strong shift towards mining skill from grounds overlooked due to deep-seeded North American hockey culture and old metagame trends.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on January 15, 2016, 09:46:08 AM
Lou sits down to chat with Jonas.
http://www.tsn.ca/lamoriello-on-babcock-the-trade-deadline-and-nylander-s-health-1.423140
A lot is written, but nothing is really said.

Quote
TSN.ca: I know you won’t get into specifics, but when you’re investing long-term in a young player - you’ve got two prominent ones obviously in Morgan Rielly and Nazem Kadri - how do you determine whether you want to be committed long-term to a young player who maybe hasn’t reached his potential yet?

Lamoriello: Well, first of all, that’s really a constant, collective decision. Those are organizational decisions. All of us, Brendan, myself and Mike and Kyle [Dubas] and Mark Hunter and Brandon [Pridham], all have input into these type of thought processes and then you have to make the final decision. But it’s not something you just do without having everybody’s knowledge and input because these are organizational decisions that have to be made not only for today but for tomorrow. It’s a process and you come to that decision and you do the homework and research on whatever decision it is that you’re going to do and you never look back, whether it works out or not. You never feel as though you made a mistake because if you do the right homework it just didn’t work out.

TSN.ca: We’re about six weeks from the trade deadline. Have you begun formulating a plan for that point?

Lamoriello: Well I think you always have a plan and it changes every day (laughs). I’ve always said you have a five-year plan in instructing or with your hockey team and during the season you have a plan that every day there’s something that happens that makes it different. Whether it’s an injury, whatever it might be.

TSN.ca: Is it fair to suggest you’ll be a seller or do you not make that determination yet?

Lamoriello: How well do you know me, Jonas?

Edit: forgot the link!
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Bender on January 15, 2016, 10:00:55 AM
Lou sits down to chat with Jonas.
A lot is written, but nothing is really said.

Quote
TSN.ca: I know you won’t get into specifics, but when you’re investing long-term in a young player - you’ve got two prominent ones obviously in Morgan Rielly and Nazem Kadri - how do you determine whether you want to be committed long-term to a young player who maybe hasn’t reached his potential yet?

Lamoriello: Well, first of all, that’s really a constant, collective decision. Those are organizational decisions. All of us, Brendan, myself and Mike and Kyle [Dubas] and Mark Hunter and Brandon [Pridham], all have input into these type of thought processes and then you have to make the final decision. But it’s not something you just do without having everybody’s knowledge and input because these are organizational decisions that have to be made not only for today but for tomorrow. It’s a process and you come to that decision and you do the homework and research on whatever decision it is that you’re going to do and you never look back, whether it works out or not. You never feel as though you made a mistake because if you do the right homework it just didn’t work out.

TSN.ca: We’re about six weeks from the trade deadline. Have you begun formulating a plan for that point?

Lamoriello: Well I think you always have a plan and it changes every day (laughs). I’ve always said you have a five-year plan in instructing or with your hockey team and during the season you have a plan that every day there’s something that happens that makes it different. Whether it’s an injury, whatever it might be.

TSN.ca: Is it fair to suggest you’ll be a seller or do you not make that determination yet?

Lamoriello: How well do you know me, Jonas?

Hahahaha I love the last line.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 15, 2016, 10:04:25 AM
Hahahaha I love the last line.

It finished great too:

Quote
TSN.ca: I’ll conclude with this. We’re 41 games into the year, you’ve been constantly evaluating players, learning about the roster. Do you have an idea yet of how many long-term building blocks you have with this group?

Lamoriello: I’d like to think that we have an idea.

TSN.ca: How do you go about that process? What...

Lamoriello: Like I said, I’d like to think we have an idea.

http://www.tsn.ca/lamoriello-on-babcock-the-trade-deadline-and-nylander-s-health-1.423140
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on January 15, 2016, 10:07:31 AM
That last part was so Johnny Tightlips.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIGUu0bvpMQ[/youtube]
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 15, 2016, 10:10:40 AM
We all joke around about him, but he had several great lines in that interview. Being in Jersey for that long definitely rubbed off on him, some of those lines could have been delivered outside Satriale's. ;D
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 15, 2016, 10:20:58 AM
We all joke around about him, but he had several great lines in that interview. Being in Jersey for that long definitely rubbed off on him, some of those lines could have been delivered outside Satriale's. ;D

I'm guessing Jonas Siegel will never be seen or heard from again.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on January 15, 2016, 10:27:30 AM
6 months in so far and Lou has been as advertised.

There are no more questions about the managerial stability, or how young and untested Dubas and Hunter and Shanahan are. Not to say there haven't been missteps (Lou's laws), but they are not exactly distractions, nor are they hindrances at this stage.

It sounds like he's not making executive decisions in a vacuum (i.e. we don't lose Dubas', Hunter's, and Pridham's expertise). He can't fire the coach, either. The trade deadline, and the offseason moves will bring more information to bear, but so far, I'm pretty okay with Lou keeping the seat warm for Dubas. While I believe Dubas could've done all of this in lieu of Lou, he wouldn't have been able to set up what he has on the Marlies and the Solar Bears.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 15, 2016, 02:51:01 PM
6 months in so far and Lou has been as advertised.

There are no more questions about the managerial stability, or how young and untested Dubas and Hunter and Shanahan are. Not to say there haven't been missteps (Lou's laws), but they are not exactly distractions, nor are they hindrances at this stage.

It sounds like he's not making executive decisions in a vacuum (i.e. we don't lose Dubas', Hunter's, and Pridham's expertise). He can't fire the coach, either. The trade deadline, and the offseason moves will bring more information to bear, but so far, I'm pretty okay with Lou keeping the seat warm for Dubas. While I believe Dubas could've done all of this in lieu of Lou, he wouldn't have been able to set up what he has on the Marlies and the Solar Bears.

Now I want to read a book called "In lieu of Lou".
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on January 15, 2016, 03:27:52 PM
Now I want to read a book called "In lieu of Lou".

That's what the SBN blog In Lou We Trust should've renamed to.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 15, 2016, 03:38:22 PM
There are no more questions about the managerial stability, or how young and untested Dubas and Hunter and Shanahan are. Not to say there haven't been missteps (Lou's laws), but they are not exactly distractions, nor are they hindrances at this stage.

Nobody serious was asking those questions and there's really not much to be said for those policies not being hindrances before any serious period of player acquisition has been gone through.

You are awarding some high marks for clearing a low bar.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on January 15, 2016, 04:05:47 PM
There are no more questions about the managerial stability, or how young and untested Dubas and Hunter and Shanahan are. Not to say there haven't been missteps (Lou's laws), but they are not exactly distractions, nor are they hindrances at this stage.

Nobody serious was asking those questions and there's really not much to be said for those policies not being hindrances before any serious period of player acquisition has been gone through.

You are awarding some high marks for clearing a low bar.

You are correct. There hasn't really been any all-out GMing action for the Leafs this year.

The bar has been quite low since before the 2004 lockout, so please forgive me for my optimism.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on January 15, 2016, 05:34:36 PM
Herman you have the right to be optimistic, as am I.  Lou is only keeping the chair warm for Dubas and acting as further mentor.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 15, 2016, 05:54:05 PM
The bar has been quite low since before the 2004 lockout, so please forgive me for my optimism.

Optimism's fine but, dude, look through the thread. You're fine with Lou in the position now, you were fine with it then. So we're certainly not basing this on new information.

"As advertised" Lamoriello was going to do things Hunter/Dubas couldn't. And he still might. That said., I look at the last few months and feel pretty confident saying that there's nothing Dubas/Hunter/Shanahan couldn't have accomplished absent those missteps.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on January 15, 2016, 06:22:11 PM
The bar has been quite low since before the 2004 lockout, so please forgive me for my optimism.

Optimism's fine but, dude, look through the thread. You're fine with Lou in the position now, you were fine with it then. So we're certainly not basing this on new information.

"As advertised" Lamoriello was going to do things Hunter/Dubas couldn't. And he still might. That said., I look at the last few months and feel pretty confident saying that there's nothing Dubas/Hunter/Shanahan couldn't have accomplished absent those missteps.

Teaching them how to be a little more tight-lipped with the media? 

I get the feeling that some people think that the GM is just on the phone all day long trying to make hockey trade deals to improve his talent base. 

If you're suggesting that Lou has done what Dubas could, then what are those things that Lou has done?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 15, 2016, 06:27:32 PM
Teaching them how to be a little more tight-lipped with the media? 

We may be reading different hockey message boards but Dubas/Hunter/Shanahan being so out front and engaging was something most people here seemed to really like.

If you're suggesting that Lou has done what Dubas could, then what are those things that Lou has done?

There's a chance you're missing the sarcasm there.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on May 04, 2016, 03:07:09 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/05/04/recapping-24-months-of-brendan-shanahan/

Quote
Back on May 8th, 2014 — almost two years ago to this day — the Maple Leafs, lead by Brendan Shanahan and Dave Nonis, signed Randy Carlyle to a two-year extension with an option for a third year. Leafs fans were sick and tired of a team that was poorly structured, lacked effort, and had a penchant for finding new ways to collapse epically, whether it be it from playoff positions or in a playoff game. Fans saw that — despite a poorly constructed core — Randy Carlyle was a primary reason for the Leafs’ frequently embarrassing play. The contract extension of Carlyle sent the fanbase into an uproar, and his final season played out just as everyone expected.

Looking back, was it evil genius on the part of Brendan Shanahan? Did he see two and three steps ahead in paying a coach(es) to be the sacrificial lamb for a grander plan he was devising? If, on May 8th of 2014, you had a crystal ball and told a panicking Leafs fan that Shanahan was going to pull off the following over the course of the next two calendar years:

* Start his first draft by picking the most skilled player, foregoing a tantalizing 6’3, 225 power forward, with their eighth overall pick.
* Hire one of the best and hardest working scouts in the game in the fall in Mark Hunter to head up his amateur scouting operation.
* Let Carlyle coach the team as it predictably tailspun out of control, fire him, and let a powerless assistant coach help steer the team into the draft lottery.
* Actually trade the iron-clad contract of David Clarkson for Nathan Horton.
* Participate in and/or preside over one of the largest bloodlettings in NHL history: firing Dave Nonis, Peter Horachek, assistant coach Steve Spott, video coach Chris Dennis, goalie coach Rick St. Croix, chief pro scout Steve Kasper, and director of player development Jim Hughes. And then approve Mark Hunter’s firing of a staggering 18-plus scouts on top if it.
* A month later, in a grand and much-hyped whale hunting expedition, hire what many consider to be the best coach in the world in Mike Babcock — a move that many considered to be a fanciful pipe dream of only the most delusional fans.
* Hire the runner-up OHL coach of the year to coach the Marlies.
* Hire the OHL coach of the year as assistant coach of the Leafs.
* Watch a first-time 28-year-old Assistant GM and Director of Player Personnel to orchestrate a draft that saw the team curiously trade down and stockpile picks using value charts to draft highly skilled players one after another — a foreign concept to fans and media who follow the team closely, and one that was derided immediately by some traditionalist media types but widely praised by experts as a home-run draft and one of the best for the Leafs in decades.
* At the opening of free agency, trade the team’s best player — who he deemed to be the lynchpin for their lack of effort — in a “get him out of town” trade that seemed — and still seems — to be a bit light on returns, but underscored an aggressive and focused plan of peeling back the team to its studs and leaving no stone unturned.
* Sign primarily analytics positive bargain players in free agency and not heed to the pressure of signing higher-profile players to bad contracts.
* Hire the lifetime New Jersey Devil and living legend General Manager, Lou Lamoriello — a perfect counterbalance after the criticism faced for assembling a front office staff scant on NHL executive experience.
* Finally admits that team is not going to be good and encourages the fans to hang in there, telling them that “there will be pain” and that their patience is appreciated.
* After the previous year of the tail wagging the dog and the media giving and getting more scandals than they could even handle (starting even before training camp), a much-needed airtight vacuum of information transfer creates a ghost town for the regular scoops and scandals.
* Watch as the newly assembled and seemingly unstoppable AHL team rips the league to shreds.
* Watch as the 2015 drafted prospects lead junior leagues in scoring at their respective positions at various points throughout the 2015-16 season.
* Instill a hard-working culture of defensively-responsible, tactically-nuanced and analytics-friendly hockey.
* Make amends with who many consider the best Maple Leaf of all time — Dave Keon — and lay to rest a decades-long standing feud — a feat attempted and failed by many.
* Introduce new young players from the AHL for cameos and send them back down once the team is playing too well.
* Build up and ship out players at the trade deadline to acquire more picks as you prepare for a last-place finish.
* Get 12 draft picks for the upcoming draft.
* Conduct a hard-earned, last-place finish that is somehow praised and applauded.
* Get a standing ovation at home from the fans at season’s end despite finishing dead last in the NHL.
* Win the draft lottery in a year that a unicorn — a big, extremely skilled, franchise centerman — is the clear-cut first overall pick.
* Watch your top junior prospect win the OHL’s most outstanding player award.
* Prepare for your highly-favoured AHL team to push for the Calder Cup.

They forgot the Winnik trade.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on May 04, 2016, 03:14:01 PM
That list is mighty impressive.  Yet as Bob Mackenzie mentioned on the radio the other day, all the low-hanging fruit has now been picked.  The improvements that need to take place from here on out will be incremental and much harder to accomplish. 
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Guilt Trip on May 04, 2016, 03:39:34 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/05/04/recapping-24-months-of-brendan-shanahan/

Quote
Back on May 8th, 2014 — almost two years ago to this day — the Maple Leafs, lead by Brendan Shanahan and Dave Nonis, signed Randy Carlyle to a two-year extension with an option for a third year. Leafs fans were sick and tired of a team that was poorly structured, lacked effort, and had a penchant for finding new ways to collapse epically, whether it be it from playoff positions or in a playoff game. Fans saw that — despite a poorly constructed core — Randy Carlyle was a primary reason for the Leafs’ frequently embarrassing play. The contract extension of Carlyle sent the fanbase into an uproar, and his final season played out just as everyone expected.

Looking back, was it evil genius on the part of Brendan Shanahan? Did he see two and three steps ahead in paying a coach(es) to be the sacrificial lamb for a grander plan he was devising? If, on May 8th of 2014, you had a crystal ball and told a panicking Leafs fan that Shanahan was going to pull off the following over the course of the next two calendar years:

* Start his first draft by picking the most skilled player, foregoing a tantalizing 6’3, 225 power forward, with their eighth overall pick.
* Hire one of the best and hardest working scouts in the game in the fall in Mark Hunter to head up his amateur scouting operation.
* Let Carlyle coach the team as it predictably tailspun out of control, fire him, and let a powerless assistant coach help steer the team into the draft lottery.
* Actually trade the iron-clad contract of David Clarkson for Nathan Horton.
* Participate in and/or preside over one of the largest bloodlettings in NHL history: firing Dave Nonis, Peter Horachek, assistant coach Steve Spott, video coach Chris Dennis, goalie coach Rick St. Croix, chief pro scout Steve Kasper, and director of player development Jim Hughes. And then approve Mark Hunter’s firing of a staggering 18-plus scouts on top if it.
* A month later, in a grand and much-hyped whale hunting expedition, hire what many consider to be the best coach in the world in Mike Babcock — a move that many considered to be a fanciful pipe dream of only the most delusional fans.
* Hire the runner-up OHL coach of the year to coach the Marlies.
* Hire the OHL coach of the year as assistant coach of the Leafs.
* Watch a first-time 28-year-old Assistant GM and Director of Player Personnel to orchestrate a draft that saw the team curiously trade down and stockpile picks using value charts to draft highly skilled players one after another — a foreign concept to fans and media who follow the team closely, and one that was derided immediately by some traditionalist media types but widely praised by experts as a home-run draft and one of the best for the Leafs in decades.
* At the opening of free agency, trade the team’s best player — who he deemed to be the lynchpin for their lack of effort — in a “get him out of town” trade that seemed — and still seems — to be a bit light on returns, but underscored an aggressive and focused plan of peeling back the team to its studs and leaving no stone unturned.
* Sign primarily analytics positive bargain players in free agency and not heed to the pressure of signing higher-profile players to bad contracts.
* Hire the lifetime New Jersey Devil and living legend General Manager, Lou Lamoriello — a perfect counterbalance after the criticism faced for assembling a front office staff scant on NHL executive experience.
* Finally admits that team is not going to be good and encourages the fans to hang in there, telling them that “there will be pain” and that their patience is appreciated.
* After the previous year of the tail wagging the dog and the media giving and getting more scandals than they could even handle (starting even before training camp), a much-needed airtight vacuum of information transfer creates a ghost town for the regular scoops and scandals.
* Watch as the newly assembled and seemingly unstoppable AHL team rips the league to shreds.
* Watch as the 2015 drafted prospects lead junior leagues in scoring at their respective positions at various points throughout the 2015-16 season.
* Instill a hard-working culture of defensively-responsible, tactically-nuanced and analytics-friendly hockey.
* Make amends with who many consider the best Maple Leaf of all time — Dave Keon — and lay to rest a decades-long standing feud — a feat attempted and failed by many.
* Introduce new young players from the AHL for cameos and send them back down once the team is playing too well.
* Build up and ship out players at the trade deadline to acquire more picks as you prepare for a last-place finish.
* Get 12 draft picks for the upcoming draft.
* Conduct a hard-earned, last-place finish that is somehow praised and applauded.
* Get a standing ovation at home from the fans at season’s end despite finishing dead last in the NHL.
* Win the draft lottery in a year that a unicorn — a big, extremely skilled, franchise centerman — is the clear-cut first overall pick.
* Watch your top junior prospect win the OHL’s most outstanding player award.
* Prepare for your highly-favoured AHL team to push for the Calder Cup.

They forgot the Winnik trade.
And Kyle Dubas...can't underestimate his input on both the Marlies and Leafs.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on May 04, 2016, 03:48:03 PM
And Kyle Dubas...can't underestimate his input on both the Marlies and Leafs.

I am ashamed to admit that I did not notice that missing from the list.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on May 04, 2016, 03:52:34 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/05/04/recapping-24-months-of-brendan-shanahan/

Quote
Back on May 8th, 2014 — almost two years ago to this day — the Maple Leafs, lead by Brendan Shanahan and Dave Nonis, signed Randy Carlyle to a two-year extension with an option for a third year. Leafs fans were sick and tired of a team that was poorly structured, lacked effort, and had a penchant for finding new ways to collapse epically, whether it be it from playoff positions or in a playoff game. Fans saw that — despite a poorly constructed core — Randy Carlyle was a primary reason for the Leafs’ frequently embarrassing play. The contract extension of Carlyle sent the fanbase into an uproar, and his final season played out just as everyone expected.

Looking back, was it evil genius on the part of Brendan Shanahan? Did he see two and three steps ahead in paying a coach(es) to be the sacrificial lamb for a grander plan he was devising? If, on May 8th of 2014, you had a crystal ball and told a panicking Leafs fan that Shanahan was going to pull off the following over the course of the next two calendar years:

* Start his first draft by picking the most skilled player, foregoing a tantalizing 6’3, 225 power forward, with their eighth overall pick.
* Hire one of the best and hardest working scouts in the game in the fall in Mark Hunter to head up his amateur scouting operation.
* Let Carlyle coach the team as it predictably tailspun out of control, fire him, and let a powerless assistant coach help steer the team into the draft lottery.
* Actually trade the iron-clad contract of David Clarkson for Nathan Horton.
* Participate in and/or preside over one of the largest bloodlettings in NHL history: firing Dave Nonis, Peter Horachek, assistant coach Steve Spott, video coach Chris Dennis, goalie coach Rick St. Croix, chief pro scout Steve Kasper, and director of player development Jim Hughes. And then approve Mark Hunter’s firing of a staggering 18-plus scouts on top if it.
* A month later, in a grand and much-hyped whale hunting expedition, hire what many consider to be the best coach in the world in Mike Babcock — a move that many considered to be a fanciful pipe dream of only the most delusional fans.
* Hire the runner-up OHL coach of the year to coach the Marlies.
* Hire the OHL coach of the year as assistant coach of the Leafs.
* Watch a first-time 28-year-old Assistant GM and Director of Player Personnel to orchestrate a draft that saw the team curiously trade down and stockpile picks using value charts to draft highly skilled players one after another — a foreign concept to fans and media who follow the team closely, and one that was derided immediately by some traditionalist media types but widely praised by experts as a home-run draft and one of the best for the Leafs in decades.
* At the opening of free agency, trade the team’s best player — who he deemed to be the lynchpin for their lack of effort — in a “get him out of town” trade that seemed — and still seems — to be a bit light on returns, but underscored an aggressive and focused plan of peeling back the team to its studs and leaving no stone unturned.
* Sign primarily analytics positive bargain players in free agency and not heed to the pressure of signing higher-profile players to bad contracts.
* Hire the lifetime New Jersey Devil and living legend General Manager, Lou Lamoriello — a perfect counterbalance after the criticism faced for assembling a front office staff scant on NHL executive experience.
* Finally admits that team is not going to be good and encourages the fans to hang in there, telling them that “there will be pain” and that their patience is appreciated.
* After the previous year of the tail wagging the dog and the media giving and getting more scandals than they could even handle (starting even before training camp), a much-needed airtight vacuum of information transfer creates a ghost town for the regular scoops and scandals.
* Watch as the newly assembled and seemingly unstoppable AHL team rips the league to shreds.
* Watch as the 2015 drafted prospects lead junior leagues in scoring at their respective positions at various points throughout the 2015-16 season.
* Instill a hard-working culture of defensively-responsible, tactically-nuanced and analytics-friendly hockey.
* Make amends with who many consider the best Maple Leaf of all time — Dave Keon — and lay to rest a decades-long standing feud — a feat attempted and failed by many.
* Introduce new young players from the AHL for cameos and send them back down once the team is playing too well.
* Build up and ship out players at the trade deadline to acquire more picks as you prepare for a last-place finish.
* Get 12 draft picks for the upcoming draft.
* Conduct a hard-earned, last-place finish that is somehow praised and applauded.
* Get a standing ovation at home from the fans at season’s end despite finishing dead last in the NHL.
* Win the draft lottery in a year that a unicorn — a big, extremely skilled, franchise centerman — is the clear-cut first overall pick.
* Watch your top junior prospect win the OHL’s most outstanding player award.
* Prepare for your highly-favoured AHL team to push for the Calder Cup.

They forgot the Winnik trade.

For a good laugh, somebody needs to dig up some old newspaper articles criticizing the hiring of Shanahan.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 04, 2016, 04:25:16 PM

I like most of the things on that list but let's be real, people here wouldn't even give Nonis credit for the Clarkson trade. Shanahan didn't do that. 
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: McGarnagle on May 04, 2016, 04:51:54 PM
With the clarkson trade, I think the only credit that needs to be made is to the ownership group.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 04, 2016, 04:59:50 PM
With the clarkson trade, I think the only credit that needs to be made is to the ownership group.

And even then there's a limit to how impressed i am with a team that could probably carry a 110-120 million payroll agreeing to stretch it to 75.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on May 04, 2016, 05:42:07 PM
Another huge achievement: the abolition of facial hair.

The real one that was missed was the signing of Brandon Pridham.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 04, 2016, 05:47:43 PM

Full points, I was super impressed by how Shanahan managed to pull off that Lottery win. 
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Al14 on May 05, 2016, 08:01:45 AM

Full points, I was super impressed by how Shanahan managed to pull off that Lottery win.

I was not impressed with the timing of this lottery win.  He should have made it happen last year!   >:(

Matthews is no McDavid!   :'(
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Downtown Connor Brown on May 05, 2016, 09:46:56 AM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/05/04/recapping-24-months-of-brendan-shanahan/

Quote
Back on May 8th, 2014 — almost two years ago to this day — the Maple Leafs, lead by Brendan Shanahan and Dave Nonis, signed Randy Carlyle to a two-year extension with an option for a third year. Leafs fans were sick and tired of a team that was poorly structured, lacked effort, and had a penchant for finding new ways to collapse epically, whether it be it from playoff positions or in a playoff game. Fans saw that — despite a poorly constructed core — Randy Carlyle was a primary reason for the Leafs’ frequently embarrassing play. The contract extension of Carlyle sent the fanbase into an uproar, and his final season played out just as everyone expected.

Looking back, was it evil genius on the part of Brendan Shanahan? Did he see two and three steps ahead in paying a coach(es) to be the sacrificial lamb for a grander plan he was devising? If, on May 8th of 2014, you had a crystal ball and told a panicking Leafs fan that Shanahan was going to pull off the following over the course of the next two calendar years:

* Start his first draft by picking the most skilled player, foregoing a tantalizing 6’3, 225 power forward, with their eighth overall pick.
* Hire one of the best and hardest working scouts in the game in the fall in Mark Hunter to head up his amateur scouting operation.
* Let Carlyle coach the team as it predictably tailspun out of control, fire him, and let a powerless assistant coach help steer the team into the draft lottery.
* Actually trade the iron-clad contract of David Clarkson for Nathan Horton.
* Participate in and/or preside over one of the largest bloodlettings in NHL history: firing Dave Nonis, Peter Horachek, assistant coach Steve Spott, video coach Chris Dennis, goalie coach Rick St. Croix, chief pro scout Steve Kasper, and director of player development Jim Hughes. And then approve Mark Hunter’s firing of a staggering 18-plus scouts on top if it.
* A month later, in a grand and much-hyped whale hunting expedition, hire what many consider to be the best coach in the world in Mike Babcock — a move that many considered to be a fanciful pipe dream of only the most delusional fans.
* Hire the runner-up OHL coach of the year to coach the Marlies.
* Hire the OHL coach of the year as assistant coach of the Leafs.
* Watch a first-time 28-year-old Assistant GM and Director of Player Personnel to orchestrate a draft that saw the team curiously trade down and stockpile picks using value charts to draft highly skilled players one after another — a foreign concept to fans and media who follow the team closely, and one that was derided immediately by some traditionalist media types but widely praised by experts as a home-run draft and one of the best for the Leafs in decades.
* At the opening of free agency, trade the team’s best player — who he deemed to be the lynchpin for their lack of effort — in a “get him out of town” trade that seemed — and still seems — to be a bit light on returns, but underscored an aggressive and focused plan of peeling back the team to its studs and leaving no stone unturned.
* Sign primarily analytics positive bargain players in free agency and not heed to the pressure of signing higher-profile players to bad contracts.
* Hire the lifetime New Jersey Devil and living legend General Manager, Lou Lamoriello — a perfect counterbalance after the criticism faced for assembling a front office staff scant on NHL executive experience.
* Finally admits that team is not going to be good and encourages the fans to hang in there, telling them that “there will be pain” and that their patience is appreciated.
* After the previous year of the tail wagging the dog and the media giving and getting more scandals than they could even handle (starting even before training camp), a much-needed airtight vacuum of information transfer creates a ghost town for the regular scoops and scandals.
* Watch as the newly assembled and seemingly unstoppable AHL team rips the league to shreds.
* Watch as the 2015 drafted prospects lead junior leagues in scoring at their respective positions at various points throughout the 2015-16 season.
* Instill a hard-working culture of defensively-responsible, tactically-nuanced and analytics-friendly hockey.
* Make amends with who many consider the best Maple Leaf of all time — Dave Keon — and lay to rest a decades-long standing feud — a feat attempted and failed by many.
* Introduce new young players from the AHL for cameos and send them back down once the team is playing too well.
* Build up and ship out players at the trade deadline to acquire more picks as you prepare for a last-place finish.
* Get 12 draft picks for the upcoming draft.
* Conduct a hard-earned, last-place finish that is somehow praised and applauded.
* Get a standing ovation at home from the fans at season’s end despite finishing dead last in the NHL.
* Win the draft lottery in a year that a unicorn — a big, extremely skilled, franchise centerman — is the clear-cut first overall pick.
* Watch your top junior prospect win the OHL’s most outstanding player award.
* Prepare for your highly-favoured AHL team to push for the Calder Cup.

They forgot the Winnik trade.

And the Phaneuf trade.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 05, 2016, 10:21:28 AM

They forgot the Winnik trade.

And the Phaneuf trade.
[/quote]

Shanahan didn't do those things.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on May 05, 2016, 10:32:02 AM
Shanahan didn't do those things.

A good chunk of that list was not directly Shanahan, but he certainly put the pieces in place for those things to happen.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 05, 2016, 11:11:13 AM

A good chunk of that list was not directly Shanahan, but he certainly put the pieces in place for those things to happen.

Yeah, all due respect it was kind of a confusing list. It was giving Shanahan credit for the good things Nonis did, then credit for firing Nonis, then the credit for things the replacements did.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on May 05, 2016, 11:57:08 AM
Yeah, all due respect it was kind of a confusing list. It was giving Shanahan credit for the good things Nonis did, then credit for firing Nonis, then the credit for things the replacements did.

Yeah. It's a little strange in that way. I think it was meant more as a list of things that show how the team's direction and philosophy have changed since Shanahan was hired, rather than giving credit to anyone for any particular moves.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on May 05, 2016, 12:30:01 PM
Yeah, all due respect it was kind of a confusing list. It was giving Shanahan credit for the good things Nonis did, then credit for firing Nonis, then the credit for things the replacements did.

Yeah. It's a little strange in that way. I think it was meant more as a list of things that show how the team's direction and philosophy have changed since Shanahan was hired, rather than giving credit to anyone for any particular moves.

In that light, it's still substantial and significant how much this team has changed in merely two seasons. It looks like it's all going in the right direction, and I'm super excited about that, but we're still a few years off from seeing the full harvest of fruit.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Al14 on May 05, 2016, 12:31:46 PM

A good chunk of that list was not directly Shanahan, but he certainly put the pieces in place for those things to happen.

Yeah, all due respect it was kind of a confusing list. It was giving Shanahan credit for the good things Nonis did, then credit for firing Nonis, then the credit for things the replacements did.

Ultimately, Shanahan is the General running the war.  As a result, he gets credit for winning the battles IMHO.  He has all his Commanders in place.  Those that failed to deliver were discharged from service.   ;D
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 05, 2016, 12:36:59 PM
Yeah. It's a little strange in that way. I think it was meant more as a list of things that show how the team's direction and philosophy have changed since Shanahan was hired, rather than giving credit to anyone for any particular moves.

Sure although, again, pointing out the things Nonis did seem like they're not entirely a function of whatever "new" direction or philosophy they might have. Likewise, "winning the lottery" is not a philosophy or direction, it's the definition of luck.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on May 05, 2016, 12:46:58 PM
Yeah. It's a little strange in that way. I think it was meant more as a list of things that show how the team's direction and philosophy have changed since Shanahan was hired, rather than giving credit to anyone for any particular moves.

Sure although, again, pointing out the things Nonis did seem like they're not entirely a function of whatever "new" direction or philosophy they might have. Likewise, "winning the lottery" is not a philosophy or direction, it's the definition of luck.

Well if Shanahan can bend space and time such that he can focus on all events happening independent of time and then push the desired outcome in to our version of space and time, then he may deserve a little bit of credit. 
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on May 05, 2016, 12:54:06 PM
Yeah. It's a little strange in that way. I think it was meant more as a list of things that show how the team's direction and philosophy have changed since Shanahan was hired, rather than giving credit to anyone for any particular moves.

Sure although, again, pointing out the things Nonis did seem like they're not entirely a function of whatever "new" direction or philosophy they might have. Likewise, "winning the lottery" is not a philosophy or direction, it's the definition of luck.

Once Shanahan came on board, I'd say it was pretty clear Nonis was just doing what he was told to do, vs. before when he was continuing his fine work of doing what Burke told him to do.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on May 05, 2016, 01:03:57 PM

Full points, I was super impressed by how Shanahan managed to pull off that Lottery win.

So was that dude from the Montreal Gazette.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on May 05, 2016, 01:04:15 PM
Sure although, again, pointing out the things Nonis did seem like they're not entirely a function of whatever "new" direction or philosophy they might have. Likewise, "winning the lottery" is not a philosophy or direction, it's the definition of luck.

Sure, but it's luck that was enhanced by the team's dedication to rebuilding providing them with the best possible odds of achieving the most favourable outcome. Obviously, Shanahan and Co. didn't do anything to directly win the lottery, but the direction they're taking the team helped.

And, as others have pointed out, of the three things on that list that you can kind of credit to Nonis,the biggest/most important one seems like a direct response to the change in philosophy (Nylander).
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Al14 on May 05, 2016, 01:05:09 PM
Yeah. It's a little strange in that way. I think it was meant more as a list of things that show how the team's direction and philosophy have changed since Shanahan was hired, rather than giving credit to anyone for any particular moves.

Sure although, again, pointing out the things Nonis did seem like they're not entirely a function of whatever "new" direction or philosophy they might have. Likewise, "winning the lottery" is not a philosophy or direction, it's the definition of luck.

Once Shanahan came on board, I'd say it was pretty clear Nonis was just doing what he was told to do, vs. before when he was continuing his fine work of doing what Burke told him to do.

If I remember correctly, Nonis had a little over a year of being his own boss after Burke was fired and Shanahan was hired.  Nonis was the top hockey dude in the organization until Shanahan came on board.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on May 05, 2016, 01:23:08 PM
Sure although, again, pointing out the things Nonis did seem like they're not entirely a function of whatever "new" direction or philosophy they might have. Likewise, "winning the lottery" is not a philosophy or direction, it's the definition of luck.

Sure, but it's luck that was enhanced by the team's dedication to rebuilding providing them with the best possible odds of achieving the most favourable outcome. Obviously, Shanahan and Co. didn't do anything to directly win the lottery, but the direction they're taking the team helped.

And, as others have pointed out, of the three things on that list that you can kind of credit to Nonis,the biggest/most important one seems like a direct response to the change in philosophy (Nylander).

I guess I'm just not quite convinced that Shanahan is deserving of so much praise.  It was pretty clear that in previous years that the GM had a much different mandate.  The fact that ownership now embraced (at least last year) a tear down isn't necessarily on Shanahan. 

And for all the flak that Burke and Nonis take, the supposed building blocks of Nylander, Reilly, and Kadri are all inherited from drafts by those guys.

They put together a really bad hockey team this year, and that's not much of an accomplishment.  As Nik said, they got lucky and won a lottery.  I think the next 2 or 3 years are really going to determine whether or not these guys really know what they're doing.  Let's wait and see how they do when they have to start balancing much higher expectations, the salary cap, and UFA complementary pieces.

I hope they're very successful.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on May 05, 2016, 01:35:49 PM
Once Shanahan came on board, I'd say it was pretty clear Nonis was just doing what he was told to do, vs. before when he was continuing his fine work of doing what Burke told him to do.

If I remember correctly, Nonis had a little over a year of being his own boss after Burke was fired and Shanahan was hired.  Nonis was the top hockey dude in the organization until Shanahan came on board.

You are correct, and that is exactly what I meant.

I guess I'm just not quite convinced that Shanahan is deserving of so much praise.  It was pretty clear that in previous years that the GM had a much different mandate.  The fact that ownership now embraced (at least last year) a tear down isn't necessarily on Shanahan. 

And for all the flak that Burke and Nonis take, the supposed building blocks of Nylander, Reilly, and Kadri are all inherited from drafts by those guys.

They put together a really bad hockey team this year, and that's not much of an accomplishment.  As Nik said, they got lucky and won a lottery.  I think the next 2 or 3 years are really going to determine whether or not these guys really know what they're doing.  Let's wait and see how they do when they have to start balancing much higher expectations, the salary cap, and UFA complementary pieces.

I hope they're very successful.

With regards to the mandate from ownership, I saw it as a pretty clear move from Shanahan when he re-upped Carlyle and kept Nonis for that season that he was using it to force ownership's hand into accepting a true rebuild. I imagine he even played them a video presentation, projecting the direction of the team if it held its course (using that current 'evaluation' season as the prime example), and highlighting the names at the top of the up coming draft.

Fait accompli, with the 18-wheeler well on its way off the cliff already (from the lofty heights of a tenuous playoff position), Shanahan allowed ownership to save face and claim the rebuild as their own idea instead. This facilitated the Bloody Sunday that followed the locker clean out and subsequent moves: Babcock, Lamoriello, Lemaire added to augment Dubas, Hunter, and Pridham.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on May 05, 2016, 01:50:36 PM
I guess I'm just not quite convinced that Shanahan is deserving of so much praise.  It was pretty clear that in previous years that the GM had a much different mandate.  The fact that ownership now embraced (at least last year) a tear down isn't necessarily on Shanahan. 

I honestly question whether that was a mandate from ownership, or whether Burke sold ownership on the flawed idea of a rebuild-on-the-fly much in the same way Shanahan sold them on the full scale rebuild, while Nonis was just kind of caught in between (and, has shown through his history in the league, that he works better implementing someone else's plans than creating his own).

Burke does deserve some credit for some of his picks, but, outside of Rielly and Kadri, there's not much to show from his era - and, giving someone credit for identifying talent in the top 7 picks of the draft feels like damning someone with faint praise. As for Nylander, I already covered that - that feels much more like a Shanahan directed move than one Nonis made on his own.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on May 05, 2016, 02:16:08 PM
As for Nylander, I already covered that - that feels much more like a Shanahan directed move than one Nonis made on his own.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/maple-leafs-president-no-mere-figurehead/article19387163/

Remember this Mirticle?

Quote
Shanahan intends to provide as much help as possible to Nonis and Co., even on days like the draft when, he admitted, many of the kids chosen had already finished their seasons by the time he took the Leafs top job this spring.

Nevertheless, he became particularly useful given slick Swedish forward William Nylander was one of the scouting staff’s top targets at eighth overall.

Shanahan and Nylander pčre played the 2006-07 season together on the New York Rangers, are of a similar age and get along very well, meaning the Leafs had some unique insight into their potential pick’s background and upbringing.

By the time the draft weekend came around, Shanahan felt he had such a good grasp on William Nylander’s personality and promise that he found the fact some were questioning his character in the lead-up to Friday humorous.

More importantly, those scouting reports were potentially beneficial to the Leafs, who wanted him to slip to their pick.

“I knew it wasn’t true,” Shanahan said. “I did a lot of homework on him.

“I called players that I played with in Detroit that had played with William over in Sweden. … To be honest with you, I did it a while ago.

“Everybody I talked to, people whose opinions I really respect, guys who are in dressing rooms, couldn’t say enough about the kid.”

Nonis, who was placed in the uncomfortable position of having a new boss looking over his shoulder back in April, admitted he was glad to have the added intel.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Frank E on May 05, 2016, 03:21:52 PM
As for Nylander, I already covered that - that feels much more like a Shanahan directed move than one Nonis made on his own.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/maple-leafs-president-no-mere-figurehead/article19387163/

Remember this Mirticle?

Quote
Shanahan intends to provide as much help as possible to Nonis and Co., even on days like the draft when, he admitted, many of the kids chosen had already finished their seasons by the time he took the Leafs top job this spring.

Nevertheless, he became particularly useful given slick Swedish forward William Nylander was one of the scouting staff’s top targets at eighth overall.

Shanahan and Nylander pčre played the 2006-07 season together on the New York Rangers, are of a similar age and get along very well, meaning the Leafs had some unique insight into their potential pick’s background and upbringing.

By the time the draft weekend came around, Shanahan felt he had such a good grasp on William Nylander’s personality and promise that he found the fact some were questioning his character in the lead-up to Friday humorous.

More importantly, those scouting reports were potentially beneficial to the Leafs, who wanted him to slip to their pick.

“I knew it wasn’t true,” Shanahan said. “I did a lot of homework on him.

“I called players that I played with in Detroit that had played with William over in Sweden. … To be honest with you, I did it a while ago.

“Everybody I talked to, people whose opinions I really respect, guys who are in dressing rooms, couldn’t say enough about the kid.”

Nonis, who was placed in the uncomfortable position of having a new boss looking over his shoulder back in April, admitted he was glad to have the added intel.

Well, to me that sounds more like Shanahan was doing this to ensure that Nylander was as advertised by his scouting team.

Like, they targeted Nylander, and Shanahan was just making sure.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on May 05, 2016, 03:38:52 PM
Well, to me that sounds more like Shanahan was doing this to ensure that Nylander was as advertised by his scouting team.

Like, they targeted Nylander, and Shanahan was just making sure.

As the Edmonton/Yakupov situation has shown, what the scouting department recommends and what less competent management groups decide to do are often two different things. And, I'd certainly describe the Nonis/Poulin/Loiselle group as such.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on May 05, 2016, 03:49:06 PM
Well, to me that sounds more like Shanahan was doing this to ensure that Nylander was as advertised by his scouting team.

Like, they targeted Nylander, and Shanahan was just making sure.

As the Edmonton/Yakupov situation has shown, what the scouting department recommends and what less competent management groups decide to do are often two different things. And, I'd certainly describe the Nonis/Poulin/Loiselle group as such.

I wasn't here for the 2014 draft, but wasn't the fanbase kind of expecting Nonis to go with Ritchie over Ehlers/Nylander?

To me it sounded like Shanahan went to bat for Nylander and basically shut down any internal misconceptions about Nylander's perceived attitude (that let him drop past the top 3 to begin with).
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: bustaheims on May 05, 2016, 03:56:05 PM
I wasn't here for the 2014 draft, but wasn't the fanbase kind of expecting Nonis to go with Ritchie over Ehlers/Nylander?

To me it sounded like Shanahan went to bat for Nylander and basically shut down any internal misconceptions about Nylander's perceived attitude (that let him drop past the top 3 to begin with).

The fanbase and the media. I remember Mirtle on Twitter being absolutely convinced that, with their track record and view of things, they'd draft Ritchie.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Tigger on May 05, 2016, 04:33:11 PM
I guess I'm just not quite convinced that Shanahan is deserving of so much praise.  It was pretty clear that in previous years that the GM had a much different mandate.  The fact that ownership now embraced (at least last year) a tear down isn't necessarily on Shanahan. 

I honestly question whether that was a mandate from ownership, or whether Burke sold ownership on the flawed idea of a rebuild-on-the-fly much in the same way Shanahan sold them on the full scale rebuild, while Nonis was just kind of caught in between (and, has shown through his history in the league, that he works better implementing someone else's plans than creating his own).

Burke does deserve some credit for some of his picks, but, outside of Rielly and Kadri, there's not much to show from his era - and, giving someone credit for identifying talent in the top 7 picks of the draft feels like damning someone with faint praise. As for Nylander, I already covered that - that feels much more like a Shanahan directed move than one Nonis made on his own.

I think that was a 'we're selling, sell it' pov from the previous board. The current one seems in for the long haul, the 'big win', as it were.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 05, 2016, 06:09:01 PM

Sure, but it's luck that was enhanced by the team's dedication to rebuilding providing them with the best possible odds of achieving the most favourable outcome. Obviously, Shanahan and Co. didn't do anything to directly win the lottery, but the direction they're taking the team helped.

Sure which is why two spots above it on the list is "Finished Last". But to have both "Finished Last" and "Won the Lottery" is giving him credit for winning the Lottery.

Again, I'm saying it's a misleading list, not that I don't like Shanahan. 
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: RedLeaf on May 05, 2016, 06:24:46 PM
Well, to me that sounds more like Shanahan was doing this to ensure that Nylander was as advertised by his scouting team.

Like, they targeted Nylander, and Shanahan was just making sure.

As the Edmonton/Yakupov situation has shown, what the scouting department recommends and what less competent management groups decide to do are often two different things. And, I'd certainly describe the Nonis/Poulin/Loiselle group as such.

I wasn't here for the 2014 draft, but wasn't the fanbase kind of expecting Nonis to go with Ritchie over Ehlers/Nylander?

To me it sounded like Shanahan went to bat for Nylander and basically shut down any internal misconceptions about Nylander's perceived attitude (that let him drop past the top 3 to begin with).

That was certainly how it played out in the reports I read at the time as well.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 05, 2016, 06:47:11 PM

I wasn't here for the 2014 draft, but wasn't the fanbase kind of expecting Nonis to go with Ritchie over Ehlers/Nylander?

http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=2345.0 (http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=2345.0)

It's a long thread but the short answer is no, not really. At least those of us here didn't have real expectations as to what would happen. Chiefly because nobody really had any idea how that draft would go outside of Ekblad being a consensus #1.

One thing's clear though. Those of us at the time didn't believe that Nonis was just doing whatever Shanahan told him to do which, I guess, seems to be the thought now unless those things were bad in which case they were all Nonis.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Zee on May 05, 2016, 07:12:02 PM
I give Nonis full credit for signing Clarkson.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on May 05, 2016, 09:31:18 PM

I wasn't here for the 2014 draft, but wasn't the fanbase kind of expecting Nonis to go with Ritchie over Ehlers/Nylander?

http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=2345.0 (http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=2345.0)

It's a long thread but the short answer is no, not really. At least those of us here didn't have real expectations as to what would happen. Chiefly because nobody really had any idea how that draft would go outside of Ekblad being a consensus #1.

One thing's clear though. Those of us at the time didn't believe that Nonis was just doing whatever Shanahan told him to do which, I guess, seems to be the thought now unless those things were bad in which case they were all Nonis.

Thanks. I'll go through that thread some time this week since the draft isn't until the end of June.

The one no-no thing I read about Shanahan was how hard he pursued re-signing Bolland. I guess they had a dollar threshold they would not cross because thankfully that did not come to fruition. Shortly after that, Dubas came on board and there was no more such talk. Winnik was signed instead.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on May 06, 2016, 01:23:31 PM
I'm about halfway through  the 2014 Draft Pick Watch thread: http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=2345.0

It's a delicious read watching the jockey back and forth on who we should pick with our #8, or if we should move up or down, or what's worth what. A couple of people chime in with Nylander every once in awhile.

I liken it to watching Game of Thrones (season 1-5) with non-book readers. Or time traveling.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on May 06, 2016, 04:01:35 PM
they could always draft Brienne of Tarth, she could replace Laine
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Al14 on May 09, 2016, 12:24:53 PM
I give Nonis full credit for signing Clarkson.

I give Shanahan FULL CREDIT for FIRING Nonis!   ;D
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on January 09, 2017, 03:52:50 PM
Tangentially related to two Leafs management regimes:

www.twitter.com/brock_mcgillis/status/818477935883616257

For the past couple of seasons we've been hearing about how the team wants their players to be good people first and foremost. Shanahan (and Dubas) directly reached out to McGillis following this story first being published (Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/brock-mcgillis-133805839.html)) and demonstrated exactly what they meant.

It's a message that needs to be heard, not just for the LGBTQ community, but all other people groups that are oppressed explicitly and/or implicitly.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on April 25, 2017, 12:16:01 PM
Check out this thread about the side of Lou he'll never show the media:
www.twitter.com/APetrielli/status/856668494452195329
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on April 30, 2017, 09:17:07 AM
Wow gives me a completly new perspective on Lou. Quite the man
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: sickbeast on April 30, 2017, 11:50:50 AM
Check out this thread about the side of Lou he'll never show the media:
www.twitter.com/APetrielli/status/856668494452195329
Wow.  Thanks for sharing that.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on June 03, 2017, 07:42:45 PM
https://hockey-graphs.com/2017/05/03/the-2017-nhl-gm-report-card-part-2/

Rating Criteria: https://hockey-graphs.com/2017/05/02/the-2017-nhl-gm-report-card-part-1/

Audio rundown: https://hockeypdocast.com/2017/05/30/ep-171-gm-rankings-front-office-hierarchy-and-parity/

Lou actually got docked a handful of points for the Zaitsev deal that was announced just as they were putting the finishing touches on this piece.

Also, looking at Detroit's cap situation, I'm thinking Mike Babcock is a terrible, terrible GM.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on March 07, 2018, 09:23:34 AM
https://theathletic.com/263573/2018/03/07/mirtle-will-kyle-dubas-be-the-next-gm-of-the-maple-leafs-and-should-he/

RAMPANT. SPECULATION. is my jam.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 07, 2018, 09:49:03 AM
Dubas' first week or month on the job during the offseason would be fascinating.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on March 07, 2018, 10:00:59 AM
Dubas' first week or month on the job during the offseason would be fascinating.

Even if he goes somewhere else, I'd be very interested to see how he went about running a team. I really like what he has done with the Marlies (who weren't in bad shape when he took over), and I really like how he handled the 2015 draft.

But I'm really hoping he gets to do it here.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Guru Tugginmypuddah on March 07, 2018, 10:13:14 AM
Dubas' first week or month on the job during the offseason would be fascinating.

Even if he goes somewhere else, I'd be very interested to see how he went about running a team. I really like what he has done with the Marlies (who weren't in bad shape when he took over), and I really like how he handled the 2015 draft.

But I'm really hoping he gets to do it here.

Seems like to me that's been the plan all along.  With Shanahan refusing Colorado permission to talk to Dubas pointing to it. 

At least I really really really hope so. 
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 07, 2018, 11:57:00 AM
When, exactly, does Lamoriello's contract end?  Would Dubas in fact by in charge of the draft, UFAs?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on March 07, 2018, 01:00:17 PM
When, exactly, does Lamoriello's contract end?  Would Dubas in fact by in charge of the draft, UFAs?

If management contracts are like coaches and player contracts, they expire June 30th (i.e. the day before UFA kicks off, a week after the draft).

If all the changes are internal, and money not really being an issue, things don't really need to follow that date exactly before Dubas/Hunter receives authorization to do whatever.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 07, 2018, 01:31:55 PM
When, exactly, does Lamoriello's contract end?  Would Dubas in fact by in charge of the draft, UFAs?

If management contracts are like coaches and player contracts, they expire June 30th (i.e. the day before UFA kicks off, a week after the draft).

If all the changes are internal, and money not really being an issue, things don't really need to follow that date exactly before Dubas/Hunter receives authorization to do whatever.

Thanks.  Yes, I guess it doesn't really matter if they have tapped his successor already.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: L K on March 07, 2018, 04:26:43 PM
Dubas' first week or month on the job during the offseason would be fascinating.

Even if he goes somewhere else, I'd be very interested to see how he went about running a team. I really like what he has done with the Marlies (who weren't in bad shape when he took over), and I really like how he handled the 2015 draft.

But I'm really hoping he gets to do it here.

Seems like to me that's been the plan all along.  With Shanahan refusing Colorado permission to talk to Dubas pointing to it. 

At least I really really really hope so.

Shanahan didn't refuse permission.  Dubas declined to talk with them.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on March 07, 2018, 04:31:01 PM
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2018/3/7/17084810/the-complete-reign-of-lou-lamoriello-so-far-toronto-maple-leafs-gm-trades-drafts-signings

Lou's work with the Leafs so far, PPP-rundown style.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on March 07, 2018, 04:45:07 PM
Shanahan didn't refuse permission.  Dubas declined to talk with them.

It's hard to track all the he said, team said, but nowhere did I read that Dubas declined to talk to Colorado. He declined to interview with Arizona when they reached out earlier.

All signs on the Toronto side and Colorado side pointed to Shanahan being the kibosher of Dubas becoming the hockey operations guy with the Avs.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: L K on March 07, 2018, 04:48:12 PM
Shanahan didn't refuse permission.  Dubas declined to talk with them.

It's hard to track all the he said, team said, but nowhere did I read that Dubas declined to talk to Colorado. He declined to interview with Arizona when they reached out earlier.

All signs on the Toronto side and Colorado side pointed to Shanahan being the kibosher of Dubas becoming the hockey operations guy with the Avs.

Ah, must have confused the two.  I knew he declined to interview with someone, must have been the Arizona one.  Although I do wonder if the reason Shanahan declined to let him interview with Colorado was that they had already made the decision to promote him?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 07, 2018, 05:46:27 PM
Although I do wonder if the reason Shanahan declined to let him interview with Colorado was that they had already made the decision to promote him?

At one point Dreger reported that when the Leafs initially gave Colorado permission to talk to Dubas, it wasn't thought to be for a job interview. It was apparently just so they could swap ideas and talk analytics and such. And then the Leafs revoked their permission once a job offer was made. Or something like that. So I wonder if Shanny was just doing his buddy Sakic a favour initially to let Colorado pick Kyle's brain... Colorado was then super impressed with how Dubas handled himself... and then they decided to try to poach him.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on March 08, 2018, 11:55:57 AM
Shanahan didn't refuse permission.  Dubas declined to talk with them.

It's hard to track all the he said, team said, but nowhere did I read that Dubas declined to talk to Colorado. He declined to interview with Arizona when they reached out earlier.

All signs on the Toronto side and Colorado side pointed to Shanahan being the kibosher of Dubas becoming the hockey operations guy with the Avs.

Ah, must have confused the two.  I knew he declined to interview with someone, must have been the Arizona one.  Although I do wonder if the reason Shanahan declined to let him interview with Colorado was that they had already made the decision to promote him?

Honestly, I also completely forgot about Arizona until I tried to look up where Dubas declined Colorado and came up with the reference.

I lean towards Carlton's read on this. Also that the reporting was well after the fact.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: disco on March 08, 2018, 03:10:39 PM
It's maintenance for KD. Continue to draft, add shrewdly, don't do anything stupid. With Lou's advice and rolodex the kid should be able to handle it.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on March 13, 2018, 10:06:23 AM
https://theathletic.com/270619/2018/03/12/custance-the-top-10-assistant-gms-ready-for-a-promotion/

Quote
5. Kyle Dubas, Maple Leafs – This could be a moot point. Dubas, as Mirtle wrote earlier this month, looks like the front-runner to replace Lou Lamoriello as GM of the Maple Leafs. He also got a long look from Colorado. Dubas got a lot of attention as a young hire in Toronto, something that rubbed some people in the game the wrong way since it was interpreted somehow as self-promotion. Also, people in hockey tend not to like anyone who receives attention before they’re viewed as deserving it. Since his hiring, Dubas has quietly earned any promotion he’s got coming his way, and those who know him argue that what truly drives Dubas is being around people he respects with a common goal and passion that he believes in. “That’s a big driver for him,” said Kyle Raftis, who replaced Dubas as GM in Sault Ste. Marie. “It’s not about where he’s going and his eyes on the future. It’s in the moment.” And in the moment, he’s learning a lot from guys like Lamoriello and Mike Babcock. “I think he really does cherish his relationship with Lou,” Raftis said. “Anytime I’ve talked to him, he’s embraced talking about Lou and enjoys that relationship.”
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on March 13, 2018, 10:56:33 AM

There goes my dream of relaxed facial hair standards.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 13, 2018, 12:25:46 PM

There goes my dream of relaxed facial hair standards.

Plekanec is dreaming even harder than you.  Besides, he can imagine Auston Matthews with a beard?
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Bullfrog on March 13, 2018, 01:07:08 PM

There goes my dream of relaxed facial hair standards.

Keep the dream alive, man! I'm confident this is a Lou-only policy.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on March 13, 2018, 01:21:55 PM

There goes my dream of relaxed facial hair standards.

Keep the dream alive, man! I'm confident this is a Lou-only policy.

Thing of it is that hockey culture is so stupid that even if Dubas did get rid of it I guarantee there'd be a column blaming that decision the second the Leafs started struggling
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on March 13, 2018, 01:56:15 PM

There goes my dream of relaxed facial hair standards.

Keep the dream alive, man! I'm confident this is a Lou-only policy.

Thing of it is that hockey culture is so stupid that even if Dubas did get rid of it I guarantee there'd be a column blaming that decision the second the Leafs started struggling

I think the desire to blame the analytics movement will be far stronger.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Nik the Trik on March 13, 2018, 02:04:41 PM
I think the desire to blame the analytics movement will be far stronger.

I don't think it's an either/or. I think Crusty O. Sportswriter's lede will be something along the lines of:

"Dubas' Maple Leafs, or Math-le Leafs, descent into mediocrity surely began with the move away from the established protocols of the more tried and true hockey wisdom espoused by his predecessor. Gone were the clean chins and team first focus, replaced by statisticians so engrossed in their abacuses(abacii?) they barely had time to groom their Kensington Market hispter beards."
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Zee on March 13, 2018, 04:20:30 PM
#TeamNoFacialHair
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Highlander on March 13, 2018, 07:01:00 PM
#TeamNoFacialHair
They skate faster with no wind resistance. Lou is a Vulcan
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on March 15, 2018, 08:43:39 AM
https://theathletic.com/274269/2018/03/15/james-van-riemsdyk-reminds-the-maple-leafs-why-hes-still-valuable/

Quote
It was a week before the Feb. 26 trade deadline and Mike Babcock was asked if keeping James van Riemsdyk, who scored the only goal that night in a 1-0 win over Florida, would be an easy decision for the Maple Leafs.

“I don't think anything is an easy decision,” the Leafs coach said with unexpected frankness. “We've talked about this a bunch, you always have this plan but your plan can always change. It depends on what people want. There's lots of times you're going through and not planning on doing anything and you end up doing something. We don't really know, in the end, what's available and what we could pursue either.

“The way I look at it is, instead of worrying about that stuff, you just keep playing good and give ourselves the best opportunity,” Babcock added, referring to van Riemsdyk. “Then, whatever is best for our team, Lou will do.”

The Leafs, in other words, were open to moving van Riemsdyk if the right deal came around.

This sort of decision making is very flow-charty and pretty much follows along with Lou's oft-repeated "if we have time to make the decision, we'll use it", and the much more annoying version: "there's a five-year plan that changes every day". It recognizes that player valuations are variable and something that players are encouraged to take ownership of (a la Kadri (https://www.mapleleafshotstove.com/2017/04/25/lou-lamoriello-extremely-careful-year-like-coming-year-far-thinking-okay/)).
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on March 16, 2018, 03:13:05 PM
https://theathletic.com/276317/2018/03/16/twitter-questions-answered-on-the-futures-of-tavares-and-jvr-skill-development-rules-changes-and-more/

Quote
The hierarchy is probably Brendan Shanahan, then Lou Lamoriello, then Mike Babcock (but Lou listens to every request Babs has, so they're basically on the same plane). After that, I would guess that different people value the input of Mark Hunter and Kyle Dubas to different degrees, though they both have a respected voice with everyone. Those first three guys lean heavy on the other two for their info, which they both have mountains of.

Quote
I don't think so. Not that they don't get along, they've just both been vying for the same job, and have been on the same plane for so long it would probably be weird for one to suddenly have to acquiesce to the other.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: Coco-puffs on March 16, 2018, 03:28:40 PM
And the best answer from that article:


Quote
Mitch is nearly impossible to hit with the puck, which is a skill he's had to develop because he's a dainty little feather, pushed by the gentle breeze in whichever direction it wants him to go. Which is to say, someone like Evgeni Malkin would wear him like a scarf out of the corner on the way to the net. So … nope! They'll keep Mitchy flying up-ice and scaring D-man for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: The Leafs Management vs NHL
Post by: herman on March 16, 2018, 03:36:47 PM
Yes, that was magnificent.

I honestly don't know why people keep suggesting Marner as a possible centre.