Author Topic: Phaneuf being shopped  (Read 16372 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 6557
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Phaneuf being shopped
« on: May 11, 2014, 08:51:34 PM »
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

Offline Rebel_1812

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1254
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2014, 09:18:39 PM »
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

How could trading the best defense men be a step forward?  Who are you going to trade him for that is better?
*******************

Offline RedLeaf

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 5187
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2014, 09:26:07 PM »
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

How could trading the best defense men be a step forward?  Who are you going to trade him for that is better?

That's why this next season appears to be just setting the table for a McDavid pick, and perhaps another top 5 the following year. Drafting 'very high' seems to be the new winning formula in the NHL, at least since the cap came in.
"The Maple Leafs are like a ship with a hole in the bottom, leaking water, and my job is to get the ship pointed in the right direction." --Steve Jobs for Brendan Shanahan.

Offline bustaheims

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 19431
  • 56!
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2014, 09:28:46 PM »
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

There were similar rumours last summer and the summer before that. I have my doubts about there being much substance to them. In all honesty, though, trading Phaneuf should signal the beginning of a rebuild, which, I'm okay with if they're serious about it. I just have my doubts about whether that's how the established management would approach it.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline RedLeaf

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 5187
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2014, 09:41:00 PM »
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

 
In all honesty, though, trading Phaneuf should signal the beginning of a rebuild, which, I'm okay with if they're serious about it.

I'm not sure they've officially completed the last rebuild yet?

But, yeah, if they go that route, they will more than likely start relying on the prospects they have in the Marlies to fill in more and more vacated openings from trades.
"The Maple Leafs are like a ship with a hole in the bottom, leaking water, and my job is to get the ship pointed in the right direction." --Steve Jobs for Brendan Shanahan.

Offline bustaheims

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 19431
  • 56!
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2014, 10:01:18 PM »
I'm not sure they've officially completed the last rebuild yet?

I'm not sure they really ever started the last rebuild. It was really more of a full scale retooling.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline princedpw

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1603
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2014, 10:53:10 PM »
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?
It must be Christmas! I'd be happy with any partner that would take him off our hands quite honestly since it would open up lots of possibilities. I'm drooling at the thought....

Trading Phaneuf will definitely make the Leafs worse next year (are you aware of that?).  I doubt he'll be traded because the Leafs management are aware he is the best defenseman we have (he plays the most minutes).  And I just don't see the Leafs ever intentionally throwing away a year.

But as a return, I'd be happy with Edmonton's 1st and maybe a salary dump like Ference.

I do think that people fail to calculate the amount of time a tear-it-down rebuild takes.  Suppose you need 4 really good players to compete for a championship.  That's 4 years in a row of top draft picks (with none of those years being a bust).  Then you have to let those 4 players mature a number of years each.  If the last of the 4 takes 3 years to mature (unlikely for a defenseman, so you have to draft your star defenseman early, which, Edmonton, for example, didnt do, meaning they have to wait several more years for a guy like Nurse to be a force).  Anyway, we are at 4+3 = 7 years minimum for a normal burn-it-down rebuild.  We might be a little better than that because we already have Rielly and Gardiner, who have some chance at turning in to those top defencemen that one needs.

Anyway, when Burke said "I don't want to be a part of a 5-year rebuild" I don't think he was doing the math properly -- a burn-it-down-sell-all-good-players rebuild will often take longer than that.  The key is drafting and developing defencemen. That just takes a long, long, long time.

Offline Bender

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4209
  • Gender: Male
  • Hot diggity daffodil!
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2014, 11:22:12 PM »
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

There were similar rumours last summer and the summer before that. I have my doubts about there being much substance to them. In all honesty, though, trading Phaneuf should signal the beginning of a rebuild, which, I'm okay with if they're serious about it. I just have my doubts about whether that's how the established management would approach it.

If they're going to do a rebuild they need to do it properly. Swapping out Phaneuf for someone else isn't going to make this team a contender. I hope Shanahan realizes that.

The one thing I don't understand about MLSE over and over is the fact that the fans want a rebuild and aren't against waiting to get better and developing correctly. We're labeled as impatient but we aren't, if they communicated what they were trying to do effectively (rebuild) then we wouldn't be bitching all the time. The fact that they've tried to put lipstick on a pig and dress this team up as something they aren't is what's infuriating. To boot, it's slowly approaching 10yrs since the lockout. It's going to be a lost decade due to mismanagement.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Offline Nik the Trik

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 21841
  • Some Guy On a Message Board
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2014, 11:27:35 PM »
I do think that people fail to calculate the amount of time a tear-it-down rebuild takes.  Suppose you need 4 really good players to compete for a championship.  That's 4 years in a row of top draft picks (with none of those years being a bust).  Then you have to let those 4 players mature a number of years each.  If the last of the 4 takes 3 years to mature (unlikely for a defenseman, so you have to draft your star defenseman early, which, Edmonton, for example, didnt do, meaning they have to wait several more years for a guy like Nurse to be a force).  Anyway, we are at 4+3 = 7 years minimum for a normal burn-it-down rebuild.  We might be a little better than that because we already have Rielly and Gardiner, who have some chance at turning in to those top defencemen that one needs.

Except that's not a realistic portrait of how any top teams were actually built. In order for a team to be competitive you're right that they probably need at least 4 exceptional players but exceptional players can be acquired in any number of ways. Here's the recent champions and a reasonable guess at their four best players and how they obtained them:

Blackhawks: Kane(1st overall), Toews(3rd overall), Keith(54th overall), Sharp(trade) or Hossa(UFA) or Crawford(52nd overall)

Kings: Quick(72nd overall), Kopitar(11th overall), Doughty(2nd overall), Mike Richards(trade)

Bruins: Thomas(UFA), Chara(UFA), Bergeron(45th overall), Lucic(50th overall)

Penguins: Crosby(1st overall), Malkin (2nd overall), Fleury(1st overall) Gonchar(UFA)

Even if you want to throw a bone to the argument and say that the Penguins 4 best players were the four guys they drafted at the top of the draft, making them the only team that really fits your mold, then there's still the noticeable absence of any defensemen on the list. 

Teams who are rebuilding still get to make trades. They still have draft picks beyond the first round(and can have multiple first round picks). Those four exceptional players can come from anywhere and while the smart money is on finding those players at the top of the draft it's the ultimate strawman argument favoured by defenders of MLSE's seeming religious objection to proper rebuilding that simply drafting high for multiple years will guarantee a team that eventually contends for a cup, Truth is in order to build a cup contender a team does have to sign good free agents and make good trades and draft well outside of the top ten.

The ability to do those things, the ability to turn up nuggets of gold in unlikely methods in addition to drafting at the top of the draft is how teams speed up that process. 7 years may be a fair benchmark for a rebuilding team reaching their full potential but a base built by superstars at the top of the draft and augmented in other ways does not take 7 years to become an entertaining playoff team or even a contender.

The Leafs wouldn't be rebuilding from nothing. They'd still have Rielly. They'd still have guys like Finn and Percy. They'd still have the assets trading guys like Phaneuf would bring back. Heck, they might even still have Kadri and Gardiner. There's no denying that the first few years of a rebuilding process would be tough to watch but can get better fairly quickly.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 11:32:28 PM by Nik the Trik »
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Mack674

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 405
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2014, 01:22:28 AM »
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/kypreos-toronto-maple-leafs-ottawa-senators-shopping-captains-dion-phaneuf-jason-spezza/

Quote
The news of a possible Phaneuf trade comes on the heels of a two-year extension for head coach Randy Carlyle, the first big move made by the organization since Brendan Shanahan took over as president after another late-season collapse by the Leafs.

Phaneuf, who has been captain of the Maple Leafs since June 2010, signed a seven-year, $49 million contract extension with Toronto last December. Phaneuf’s extension doesn’t kick in until July 1 and, according to Kypreos, Shanahan may not be fully on board with the Leafs current captain moving forward.


The 28-year-old Edmonton native had eight goals, 23 assists and a plus-2 rating in 80 games for the Leafs this season and led the team in ice time, averaging more than 23 minutes a contest.

good.
"None of your business"

Offline LittleHockeyFan

  • BearyBest Leaf Fan
  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 3669
  • game ON!
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2014, 05:22:38 AM »
yay!

losveratos

  • Guest
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2014, 05:37:32 AM »
Unless we get a top 2 defenceman in return or get another in trade or signing. This would spell the end of any aspirations for the playoffs next year.

If you're going to go full tank I agree that this is the year to do it. But I just don't think they'd trade enough to actually accomplish the 1st overall pick.

I fear this trade if it actually happened would be for a moderate roster return and not for the futures we should be after if we wanted to tank.

Offline RedLeaf

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 5187
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2014, 07:49:44 AM »
Phaneuf + prospect(s) for Paul Stastny
Gardiner + Kadri for PK Subban

Hey..... one can dream.
"The Maple Leafs are like a ship with a hole in the bottom, leaking water, and my job is to get the ship pointed in the right direction." --Steve Jobs for Brendan Shanahan.

Offline L K

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 8651
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2014, 07:54:08 AM »
Phaneuf + prospect(s) for Paul Stastny
Gardiner + Kadri for PK Subban

Hey..... one can dream.

I hope we don't trade a 1st pairing defenseman AND prospects for a pending UFA.

Offline RedLeaf

  • All Star
  • *****
  • Posts: 5187
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2014, 08:03:10 AM »
Phaneuf + prospect(s) for Paul Stastny
Gardiner + Kadri for PK Subban

Hey..... one can dream.

I hope we don't trade a 1st pairing defenseman AND prospects for a pending UFA.

If we can get him without giving up Phaneuf, of course thats preferable. But if hes signed to a reasonable contract prior to becoming a UFA (or being traded) then I'd be more than good with that trade.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 08:04:41 AM by RedLeaf »
"The Maple Leafs are like a ship with a hole in the bottom, leaking water, and my job is to get the ship pointed in the right direction." --Steve Jobs for Brendan Shanahan.

TMLfans.ca

Re: Phaneuf being shopped
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2014, 08:03:10 AM »