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Maple Leafs News and Views => Leafs Media Rumours => Topic started by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on May 11, 2014, 08:51:34 PM

Title: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on May 11, 2014, 08:51:34 PM
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Rebel_1812 on May 11, 2014, 09:18:39 PM
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

How could trading the best defense men be a step forward?  Who are you going to trade him for that is better?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 11, 2014, 09:26:07 PM
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

How could trading the best defense men be a step forward?  Who are you going to trade him for that is better?

That's why this next season appears to be just setting the table for a McDavid pick, and perhaps another top 5 the following year. Drafting 'very high' seems to be the new winning formula in the NHL, at least since the cap came in.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on May 11, 2014, 09:28:46 PM
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

There were similar rumours last summer and the summer before that. I have my doubts about there being much substance to them. In all honesty, though, trading Phaneuf should signal the beginning of a rebuild, which, I'm okay with if they're serious about it. I just have my doubts about whether that's how the established management would approach it.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 11, 2014, 09:41:00 PM
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

 
In all honesty, though, trading Phaneuf should signal the beginning of a rebuild, which, I'm okay with if they're serious about it.

I'm not sure they've officially completed the last rebuild yet?

But, yeah, if they go that route, they will more than likely start relying on the prospects they have in the Marlies to fill in more and more vacated openings from trades.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on May 11, 2014, 10:01:18 PM
I'm not sure they've officially completed the last rebuild yet?

I'm not sure they really ever started the last rebuild. It was really more of a full scale retooling.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: princedpw on May 11, 2014, 10:53:10 PM
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?
It must be Christmas! I'd be happy with any partner that would take him off our hands quite honestly since it would open up lots of possibilities. I'm drooling at the thought....

Trading Phaneuf will definitely make the Leafs worse next year (are you aware of that?).  I doubt he'll be traded because the Leafs management are aware he is the best defenseman we have (he plays the most minutes).  And I just don't see the Leafs ever intentionally throwing away a year.

But as a return, I'd be happy with Edmonton's 1st and maybe a salary dump like Ference.

I do think that people fail to calculate the amount of time a tear-it-down rebuild takes.  Suppose you need 4 really good players to compete for a championship.  That's 4 years in a row of top draft picks (with none of those years being a bust).  Then you have to let those 4 players mature a number of years each.  If the last of the 4 takes 3 years to mature (unlikely for a defenseman, so you have to draft your star defenseman early, which, Edmonton, for example, didnt do, meaning they have to wait several more years for a guy like Nurse to be a force).  Anyway, we are at 4+3 = 7 years minimum for a normal burn-it-down rebuild.  We might be a little better than that because we already have Rielly and Gardiner, who have some chance at turning in to those top defencemen that one needs.

Anyway, when Burke said "I don't want to be a part of a 5-year rebuild" I don't think he was doing the math properly -- a burn-it-down-sell-all-good-players rebuild will often take longer than that.  The key is drafting and developing defencemen. That just takes a long, long, long time.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Bender on May 11, 2014, 11:22:12 PM
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

There were similar rumours last summer and the summer before that. I have my doubts about there being much substance to them. In all honesty, though, trading Phaneuf should signal the beginning of a rebuild, which, I'm okay with if they're serious about it. I just have my doubts about whether that's how the established management would approach it.

If they're going to do a rebuild they need to do it properly. Swapping out Phaneuf for someone else isn't going to make this team a contender. I hope Shanahan realizes that.

The one thing I don't understand about MLSE over and over is the fact that the fans want a rebuild and aren't against waiting to get better and developing correctly. We're labeled as impatient but we aren't, if they communicated what they were trying to do effectively (rebuild) then we wouldn't be bitching all the time. The fact that they've tried to put lipstick on a pig and dress this team up as something they aren't is what's infuriating. To boot, it's slowly approaching 10yrs since the lockout. It's going to be a lost decade due to mismanagement.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 11, 2014, 11:27:35 PM
I do think that people fail to calculate the amount of time a tear-it-down rebuild takes.  Suppose you need 4 really good players to compete for a championship.  That's 4 years in a row of top draft picks (with none of those years being a bust).  Then you have to let those 4 players mature a number of years each.  If the last of the 4 takes 3 years to mature (unlikely for a defenseman, so you have to draft your star defenseman early, which, Edmonton, for example, didnt do, meaning they have to wait several more years for a guy like Nurse to be a force).  Anyway, we are at 4+3 = 7 years minimum for a normal burn-it-down rebuild.  We might be a little better than that because we already have Rielly and Gardiner, who have some chance at turning in to those top defencemen that one needs.

Except that's not a realistic portrait of how any top teams were actually built. In order for a team to be competitive you're right that they probably need at least 4 exceptional players but exceptional players can be acquired in any number of ways. Here's the recent champions and a reasonable guess at their four best players and how they obtained them:

Blackhawks: Kane(1st overall), Toews(3rd overall), Keith(54th overall), Sharp(trade) or Hossa(UFA) or Crawford(52nd overall)

Kings: Quick(72nd overall), Kopitar(11th overall), Doughty(2nd overall), Mike Richards(trade)

Bruins: Thomas(UFA), Chara(UFA), Bergeron(45th overall), Lucic(50th overall)

Penguins: Crosby(1st overall), Malkin (2nd overall), Fleury(1st overall) Gonchar(UFA)

Even if you want to throw a bone to the argument and say that the Penguins 4 best players were the four guys they drafted at the top of the draft, making them the only team that really fits your mold, then there's still the noticeable absence of any defensemen on the list. 

Teams who are rebuilding still get to make trades. They still have draft picks beyond the first round(and can have multiple first round picks). Those four exceptional players can come from anywhere and while the smart money is on finding those players at the top of the draft it's the ultimate strawman argument favoured by defenders of MLSE's seeming religious objection to proper rebuilding that simply drafting high for multiple years will guarantee a team that eventually contends for a cup, Truth is in order to build a cup contender a team does have to sign good free agents and make good trades and draft well outside of the top ten.

The ability to do those things, the ability to turn up nuggets of gold in unlikely methods in addition to drafting at the top of the draft is how teams speed up that process. 7 years may be a fair benchmark for a rebuilding team reaching their full potential but a base built by superstars at the top of the draft and augmented in other ways does not take 7 years to become an entertaining playoff team or even a contender.

The Leafs wouldn't be rebuilding from nothing. They'd still have Rielly. They'd still have guys like Finn and Percy. They'd still have the assets trading guys like Phaneuf would bring back. Heck, they might even still have Kadri and Gardiner. There's no denying that the first few years of a rebuilding process would be tough to watch but can get better fairly quickly.
Title: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Mack674 on May 12, 2014, 01:22:28 AM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/kypreos-toronto-maple-leafs-ottawa-senators-shopping-captains-dion-phaneuf-jason-spezza/

Quote
The news of a possible Phaneuf trade comes on the heels of a two-year extension for head coach Randy Carlyle, the first big move made by the organization since Brendan Shanahan took over as president after another late-season collapse by the Leafs.

Phaneuf, who has been captain of the Maple Leafs since June 2010, signed a seven-year, $49 million contract extension with Toronto last December. Phaneuf’s extension doesn’t kick in until July 1 and, according to Kypreos, Shanahan may not be fully on board with the Leafs current captain moving forward.


The 28-year-old Edmonton native had eight goals, 23 assists and a plus-2 rating in 80 games for the Leafs this season and led the team in ice time, averaging more than 23 minutes a contest.

good.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: LittleHockeyFan on May 12, 2014, 05:22:38 AM
yay!
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: losveratos on May 12, 2014, 05:37:32 AM
Unless we get a top 2 defenceman in return or get another in trade or signing. This would spell the end of any aspirations for the playoffs next year.

If you're going to go full tank I agree that this is the year to do it. But I just don't think they'd trade enough to actually accomplish the 1st overall pick.

I fear this trade if it actually happened would be for a moderate roster return and not for the futures we should be after if we wanted to tank.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 12, 2014, 07:49:44 AM
Phaneuf + prospect(s) for Paul Stastny
Gardiner + Kadri for PK Subban

Hey..... one can dream.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: L K on May 12, 2014, 07:54:08 AM
Phaneuf + prospect(s) for Paul Stastny
Gardiner + Kadri for PK Subban

Hey..... one can dream.

I hope we don't trade a 1st pairing defenseman AND prospects for a pending UFA.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 12, 2014, 08:03:10 AM
Phaneuf + prospect(s) for Paul Stastny
Gardiner + Kadri for PK Subban

Hey..... one can dream.

I hope we don't trade a 1st pairing defenseman AND prospects for a pending UFA.

If we can get him without giving up Phaneuf, of course thats preferable. But if hes signed to a reasonable contract prior to becoming a UFA (or being traded) then I'd be more than good with that trade.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 12, 2014, 08:07:32 AM
So Shanahan apparently disagrees with the 2nd biggest decision Nonis made as Leafs GM but he trusts him enough to let him go out and fix that mistake.

edit: If this is all true then it should answer any questions to as to who is making the hockey decisions here.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 12, 2014, 08:11:28 AM
Dreger, FWIW:

Quote
@Hope_Smoke

Dreger "the Leafs aren't shopping Phaneuf. Nonis told me yesterday, the Leafs will move him but aren't shopping him."

Quote
Hope_Smoke

Dreger "that's Nonis' philosophy and always has been. He'll move anyone if the price is right."

Quote
@Hope_Smoke

Dreger "We get caught up in semantics. Leafs aren't shopping Gardiner and Kadri either, but teams know they're listening. Dion's the same"

Quote
@Hope_Smoke

Dreger "Nonis told me yesterday that the Leafs haven't discussed Phaneuf with anyone since the last trade deadline"
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 12, 2014, 08:12:30 AM
Dreger needs to stop calling his sock-puppet "Nonis".
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Boston Leaf on May 12, 2014, 08:45:47 AM
even though I am not anti Dion at all with that contract and his reputation I think that there will be zero market for him regardless
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 12, 2014, 09:01:53 AM
He shouldn't be difficult to move if they wanted to, his deal isn't outrageous.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Big Daddy on May 12, 2014, 09:04:21 AM
Phaneuf being traded to SJ for the right to negotiate with Thornton and Boyle
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 12, 2014, 09:11:39 AM
Phaneuf being traded to SJ for the right to negotiate with Thornton and Boyle

On the off chance that this is not just a joke, I'm fairly certain you can't negotiate with a player who has a contract.  Or I guess you could do it, only pointlessly.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 12, 2014, 09:22:59 AM
He shouldn't be difficult to move if they wanted to, his deal isn't outrageous.

His no-trade clause won't kick in until July 1st too, so there's nothing stopping Nonis from dealing him to Edmonton or Winnipeg.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Peter D. on May 12, 2014, 09:40:27 AM
I do not like the sounds of retaining $1 to $1.5 million in a potential deal.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on May 12, 2014, 10:02:24 AM
His no-trade clause won't kick in until July 1st too, so there's nothing stopping Nonis from dealing him to Edmonton or Winnipeg.

Under the current CBA, NTCs can come into effect the moment the extension is signed, and I'm pretty sure that's the situation with Phaneuf.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 12, 2014, 10:08:01 AM
So Shanahan apparently disagrees with the 2nd biggest decision Nonis made as Leafs GM but he trusts him enough to let him go out and fix that mistake.

edit: If this is all true then it should answer any questions to as to who is making the hockey decisions here.
From Mirtle-Phaneuf has more value signed than as a pending UFA, so I'm not sure you can rip the fact the Leafs locked him up. That helps a trade.

Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: pmrules on May 12, 2014, 10:27:13 AM
Semantics aside of whether he is being "shopped" or "available" (like everyone on this team should be), I am of the opinion we should focus on obtaining a worthy partner for Phaneuf by bringing in another 1st pairing defenseman to help him out...maybe even drop Phaneuf to #2 status if possible. 
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Kaberle15 on May 12, 2014, 10:55:26 AM
How could trading the best defense men be a step forward?  Who are you going to trade him for that is better?
Is Gunnarsson been shopped?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: hap_leaf on May 12, 2014, 11:12:02 AM
The ability to do those things, the ability to turn up nuggets of gold in unlikely methods in addition to drafting at the top of the draft is how teams speed up that process. 7 years may be a fair benchmark for a rebuilding team reaching their full potential but a base built by superstars at the top of the draft and augmented in other ways does not take 7 years to become an entertaining playoff team or even a contender.

For sure, the Av's turned it around in a big hurry via the draft: MacKinnon (1), Landeskog (2), Duchene (3), O'Reilly (33) and of course Stastny (44).
From 39 points in 48 games last year to 112 points in 82 games this year, its one of the most remarkable turnarounds ever. 
So I think in some ways you are cherry picking the teams in your examples as having to have won the Cup in recent years.  Plenty of teams have improved after having done well in the draft for successive years but just haven't put it all together for the ultimate prize.
As you rightly point out it doesn't have to be a top 10 pick to make a huge impact.  Look at Palat (208) leading Tampa in scoring this year.

I would say Pittsburgh, Colorado, Tampa, Chicago (today's Chicago, not necessarily the Thomas-era Chicago) and Anaheim can say their level of success is directly due to great successive draft choices.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 12, 2014, 11:40:03 AM
For sure, the Av's turned it around in a big hurry via the draft: MacKinnon (1), Landeskog (2), Duchene (3), O'Reilly (33) and of course Stastny (44).

Although there's still no defensemen on the list and the single biggest factor in the turn-around, goaltending, had nothing at all to do with the draft. Regardless, that teams can turn it around quickly with a few years of high draft picks is the point I'm making in response to the suggestion that a full scale rebuild takes 7 years to complete. The Avs only went 3 seasons between playoff appearances.

So I think in some ways you are cherry picking the teams in your examples as having to have won the Cup in recent years.

If I'm using winning the cup as the aim then I'm kind of limited to cup winners in my evaluation, unfortunately

Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: A Weekend at Bernier's on May 12, 2014, 11:45:51 AM
Semantics aside of whether he is being "shopped" or "available" (like everyone on this team should be), I am of the opinion we should focus on obtaining a worthy partner for Phaneuf by bringing in another 1st pairing defenseman to help him out...maybe even drop Phaneuf to #2 status if possible.

I agree with this.  However, if the rumours are true, then Shanahan's evaluation of the team must have concluded that Phaneuf is ineffective as a captain.  It's likely tjhat it's easier to trade a captain than strip a core player of their captaincy and expect them to play hard and well for the next seven years.

I don't know, for me this team is not in rebuild mode.  The time for that was in 2009, which of course is now ancient history.  What's needed here is some patience and likely a reallocation of assets: ie. Trade Phaneuf for, oh I don't know, say Jordan Eberle (spitballing here), then trade Lupul for Alex Edler.  Boom goes the dynamite and, in my opinion, the Leafs are a better team next year.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 12, 2014, 11:47:22 AM
Semantics aside of whether he is being "shopped" or "available" (like everyone on this team should be), I am of the opinion we should focus on obtaining a worthy partner for Phaneuf by bringing in another 1st pairing defenseman to help him out...maybe even drop Phaneuf to #2 status if possible.

I agree with this.  However, if the rumours are true, then Shanahan's evaluation of the team must have concluded that Phaneuf is ineffective as a captain.  It's likely tjhat it's easier to trade a captain than strip a core player of their captaincy and expect them to play hard and well for the next seven years.

It could also be that he feels the team needs some cap flexibility and that Phaneuf is the best chance to free up space + get a decent return since Wendel Clarkson isn't moving, and Kessel is a few years younger.

It's interesting that Dreger shot it down on his official account though.  He tends not to post things on there unless he knows for sure.  He saves the random chatter to his radio appearances where he spitballs stuff a lot of the time.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 12, 2014, 11:51:29 AM
Trade Phaneuf for, oh I don't know, say Jordan Eberle (spitballing here), then trade Lupul for Alex Edler.  Boom goes the dynamite and, in my opinion, the Leafs are a better team next year.

They might be better(although that's why I wouldn't make either of those trades if I were the Oilers or Canucks) but probably not to the point where anyone would look at the Leafs as legit contenders. At some point they're going to have to address closing that gap.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: A Weekend at Bernier's on May 12, 2014, 12:31:11 PM
Trade Phaneuf for, oh I don't know, say Jordan Eberle (spitballing here), then trade Lupul for Alex Edler.  Boom goes the dynamite and, in my opinion, the Leafs are a better team next year.

They might be better(although that's why I wouldn't make either of those trades if I were the Oilers or Canucks) but probably not to the point where anyone would look at the Leafs as legit contenders. At some point they're going to have to address closing that gap.

Yeah, you're right.  Trades of that ilk would likely mean the Leafs are a playoff team, but not a serious contender.  For as much as we point the Flyers dramatic overhaul of their roster a few years ago as a template (I count myself as having done this), really what did it get them?  Ok, an aging Chris Pronger might have made some difference, but despite the fact that they've been decent enough regular season performers they really haven't had any sort of meaningful success.

It's a stark, cold reality, but as we sit here right now the Leafs lack the pipeline of elite talent to seriously contend.  I mean, when you stack up Toronto's lineup against that of Colorado, or at least in terms of depth of top-end players, it's quite grim.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: A Weekend at Bernier's on May 12, 2014, 12:35:27 PM
Also wanted to add that, although I'm quite sure Old Man Bill Watters is one of his sources, Kypreos' claim that San Jose is interested in Phaneuf makes a great deal of sense to me.  I also wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see him go there (or a similar team) and be really successful.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Corn Flake on May 12, 2014, 02:03:11 PM
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

How could trading the best defense men be a step forward?  Who are you going to trade him for that is better?

If they are indeed going to do this, I see it as 99.9% about instituting a culture change from within the core of the team.   I am mostly a Phaneuf supporter but the reality is he has been captain of record during three major season-destroying collapses.  His leadership seems to mostly be about yelling a lot and it was pretty obvious at the end of this year the other guys were getting tired of it. (see: Kessel caught on viewo telling Dion to "shut his f***king mouth")

If Shanny has determined that Dion is not the type of leader he wants on the ice for this team, then so be it.  It will be a huge gut to the core and will create a gaping hole on defense, but if it's the means to the right long-term end, then go for it. We can live with the re-growing pains.

To be honest, I think if the rest of the defense wasn't so awful, Phaneuf wouldn't have been so heavily relied on.  Meaning if he moves Dion and overhauls the rest of the defense then I think they can actually get better and not worse.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: nutman on May 12, 2014, 03:08:15 PM
I think Phaneuf is more of a problem on the defense then a help. I don't think he is liked by the core players, and I don't think they like the fact he gets caught flat footed as well as gives up the blue line so much.
I think his best value to the Leafs is the cap we would save , and the value we could get for him in a trade. I bet management is thinking the same.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: mc on May 12, 2014, 03:09:31 PM
They brought in the same coach from last year's disaster. Unless they want a repeat a year from now, they better make drastic changes to the roster. Whether that means trading the captain or stripping the C from his chest and giving it to another player - I am all for it. The current team is far far far from a championship calibre roster. Too many passengers.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Rebel_1812 on May 12, 2014, 10:57:14 PM
I do think that people fail to calculate the amount of time a tear-it-down rebuild takes.  Suppose you need 4 really good players to compete for a championship.  That's 4 years in a row of top draft picks (with none of those years being a bust).  Then you have to let those 4 players mature a number of years each.  If the last of the 4 takes 3 years to mature (unlikely for a defenseman, so you have to draft your star defenseman early, which, Edmonton, for example, didnt do, meaning they have to wait several more years for a guy like Nurse to be a force).  Anyway, we are at 4+3 = 7 years minimum for a normal burn-it-down rebuild.  We might be a little better than that because we already have Rielly and Gardiner, who have some chance at turning in to those top defencemen that one needs.

Except that's not a realistic portrait of how any top teams were actually built. In order for a team to be competitive you're right that they probably need at least 4 exceptional players but exceptional players can be acquired in any number of ways. Here's the recent champions and a reasonable guess at their four best players and how they obtained them:

Blackhawks: Kane(1st overall), Toews(3rd overall), Keith(54th overall), Sharp(trade) or Hossa(UFA) or Crawford(52nd overall)

Kings: Quick(72nd overall), Kopitar(11th overall), Doughty(2nd overall), Mike Richards(trade)

Bruins: Thomas(UFA), Chara(UFA), Bergeron(45th overall), Lucic(50th overall)

Penguins: Crosby(1st overall), Malkin (2nd overall), Fleury(1st overall) Gonchar(UFA)

Even if you want to throw a bone to the argument and say that the Penguins 4 best players were the four guys they drafted at the top of the draft, making them the only team that really fits your mold, then there's still the noticeable absence of any defensemen on the list. 

Teams who are rebuilding still get to make trades. They still have draft picks beyond the first round(and can have multiple first round picks). Those four exceptional players can come from anywhere and while the smart money is on finding those players at the top of the draft it's the ultimate strawman argument favoured by defenders of MLSE's seeming religious objection to proper rebuilding that simply drafting high for multiple years will guarantee a team that eventually contends for a cup, Truth is in order to build a cup contender a team does have to sign good free agents and make good trades and draft well outside of the top ten.

The ability to do those things, the ability to turn up nuggets of gold in unlikely methods in addition to drafting at the top of the draft is how teams speed up that process. 7 years may be a fair benchmark for a rebuilding team reaching their full potential but a base built by superstars at the top of the draft and augmented in other ways does not take 7 years to become an entertaining playoff team or even a contender.

The Leafs wouldn't be rebuilding from nothing. They'd still have Rielly. They'd still have guys like Finn and Percy. They'd still have the assets trading guys like Phaneuf would bring back. Heck, they might even still have Kadri and Gardiner. There's no denying that the first few years of a rebuilding process would be tough to watch but can get better fairly quickly.

If your arguement is that good draft picks don't lead to success, you have disproved yourself with your own examples.  Most of those guys are high draft picks.  If the leafs really want to rebuild with the draft then don't just trade Phaneuf; also trade kessel, bozak and JVR.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: jdh1 on May 12, 2014, 11:03:27 PM
I think Phaneuf is more of a problem on the defense then a help. I don't think he is liked by the core players, and I don't think they like the fact he gets caught flat footed as well as gives up the blue line so much.
I think his best value to the Leafs is the cap we would save , and the value we could get for him in a trade. I bet management is thinking the same.
Agreed,I am glad that he might be traded..I was in the camp of trading him before they signed him for 7 years.As you say his cap relief can leave the team freed up for future moves.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Rebel_1812 on May 12, 2014, 11:03:44 PM
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?

How could trading the best defense men be a step forward?  Who are you going to trade him for that is better?

If they are indeed going to do this, I see it as 99.9% about instituting a culture change from within the core of the team.   I am mostly a Phaneuf supporter but the reality is he has been captain of record during three major season-destroying collapses.  His leadership seems to mostly be about yelling a lot and it was pretty obvious at the end of this year the other guys were getting tired of it. (see: Kessel caught on viewo telling Dion to "shut his f***king mouth")

If Shanny has determined that Dion is not the type of leader he wants on the ice for this team, then so be it.  It will be a huge gut to the core and will create a gaping hole on defense, but if it's the means to the right long-term end, then go for it. We can live with the re-growing pains.

To be honest, I think if the rest of the defense wasn't so awful, Phaneuf wouldn't have been so heavily relied on.  Meaning if he moves Dion and overhauls the rest of the defense then I think they can actually get better and not worse.

I think that is a good point.  They say the shouting coaches wear out there welcome and the same could be the case with Phaneuf as captain.  Its not like they can tell him to change or strip him of the C.  They will have to do like calgary did and trade him for as much as they can.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on May 12, 2014, 11:16:42 PM
I don't think trading Phaneuf would necessarily make the defense worse.  In fact, I highly doubt it would.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: losveratos on May 13, 2014, 01:45:18 AM
I don't think trading Phaneuf would necessarily make the defense worse.  In fact, I highly doubt it would.

When you start to give the remaining defensemen his minutes... it'll start to show it's true colours in a hurry.

I hope you're right but I'm 90% sure you're wrong.

Just like Phaneuf himself being a great player at about 20mins a night plays significantly worse at 25+mins a night. So to will the other players that will have to step up.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 13, 2014, 02:11:28 AM

I think it's pretty telling that most people who are Phaneuf advocates aren't even entertaining the possibility that trading him could yield a really terrific return for the Leafs.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: TheMightyOdin on May 13, 2014, 06:16:10 AM
I have never liked Dion as a captain, leader, or even as a number 1 defenseman. 
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: losveratos on May 13, 2014, 06:18:21 AM

I think it's pretty telling that most people who are Phaneuf advocates aren't even entertaining the possibility that trading him could yield a really terrific return for the Leafs.

While I'm not an advocate for Phaneuf, the reason I think it won't yield a terrific return is because we'd be the quarter in this trade. As in 3 dimes for a quater. I like those trade when we get the quarter. That's the team that generally has the best result.

I think about it this way. In order to "win" the trade if you get the multiple pieces, either a) one of the players steps up significantly b) you wait the extra seasons to have a rookie you got reach their prime or c) the quarter you traded sucks on the new team and your results weren't terrible.

To win as the other team though... much easier as your piece received is usually currently better than every piece you traded individually and even if they don't beat expectations and just meet them you still usually ended up with the best player of the bunch. You also didn't have to wait for it to come to fruition as the player is usually already in their prime or just starting to pass it.

I'd 10x prefer to package our quarter and a few more nickels and dimes for a half dollar or something (the analogy is stretching a bit thin at this point). But that's just my thoughts on the matter. Maybe I'd be happy with a few more dimes on the team than I am now with Phaneuf. But change for changes sake just doesn't seem right to me. I want upgrades dammit. Burke promised me :'(

/rant
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Optimus Reimer on May 13, 2014, 09:07:42 AM
I was a huge Phaneuf critic, but I honestly thought he played great last season.  Along with a large number of posters I believe the problem was Carlyle's defensive system or a lack of a defensive system.  I am not sure what the Leafs could get in return but I would like to see a #1 defenseman or a pick and a bona fide prospect come back this way.

What would be interesting is if indeed Kadri, Gardiner and Reimer were not in Carlyle's plan to return is if a package of players were shipped out.  Perhaps Nonis could acquire players that would fit better into Carlyle's system and at the same time acquire a #1 centre, 2 reliable defenseman and a back up to Bernier.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Brian Glennie on May 13, 2014, 09:18:50 AM
How do you market Phaneuf in a trade discussion? It's a tough pitch to say he's going to provide leadership and defensive stability to a young team and he's not exactly a fan favorite so it's not like he's going to help you sell a lot of jerseys or anything. So then you're stuck trying to convince a rival GM that Dion's worth $7M a year to be part of his supporting cast but even then how happy is he going to be as a #3-4?

I hope I'm completely wrong as usual but I don't think Phaneuf's going anywhere for a long, long time.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Andy on May 13, 2014, 09:31:50 AM
I was a huge Phaneuf critic, but I honestly thought he played great last season.  Along with a large number of posters I believe the problem was Carlyle's defensive system or a lack of a defensive system.  I am not sure what the Leafs could get in return but I would like to see a #1 defenseman or a pick and a bona fide prospect come back this way.

What would be interesting is if indeed Kadri, Gardiner and Reimer were not in Carlyle's plan to return is if a package of players were shipped out.  Perhaps Nonis could acquire players that would fit better into Carlyle's system and at the same time acquire a #1 centre, 2 reliable defenseman and a back up to Bernier.

So you are saying that Carlyle's system (or lack thereof) was a major problem last year yet advocate trading two of the team's top young assets for players to fit the same problematic system?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 13, 2014, 09:34:29 AM
Mirtle's take on the trade rumours:

Quote
As with most of the teams that missed the playoffs, the Toronto Maple Leafs and Ottawa Senators are both seeking a shakeup.

But what they really need is some clarity about what they’re trying to be.

That’s been an issue for roughly the last decade for the Leafs. More than five years after former general manager Brian Burke pronounced he didn’t want to be part of a five-year rebuild, no one seems to have an answer as to whether this team is working to contend now or years down the road, an essential question when it comes to Phaneuf.

How exactly would moving the team’s top minute-eating defenceman put them further ahead in the near term, especially if the Leafs have to retain salary – for the next seven (!) years – in the deal?

While cap space is nice, there’s little available to use it on in free agency to replace Phaneuf. And whatever return they get would likely be more of the futures variety, which is fine if a rebuild is the direction new president Brendan Shanahan and Co. intend to go.

In that case, the teardown will need to go well beyond Phaneuf, and dealing young players Nazem Kadri and Jake Gardiner – two other Leafs in the rumour mill of late – would make even less sense than the little it does already.

Whether Phaneuf stays or goes, Toronto’s brass have to pick a path here instead of trying to dance in two directions, making changes for the sake of changes and signing veteran players to long-term deals months before contemplating moving and/or buying them out.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/mirtle-leafs-sens-at-a-crossroads-with-their-captains/article18631491/
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Optimus Reimer on May 13, 2014, 09:47:31 AM
I was a huge Phaneuf critic, but I honestly thought he played great last season.  Along with a large number of posters I believe the problem was Carlyle's defensive system or a lack of a defensive system.  I am not sure what the Leafs could get in return but I would like to see a #1 defenseman or a pick and a bona fide prospect come back this way.

What would be interesting is if indeed Kadri, Gardiner and Reimer were not in Carlyle's plan to return is if a package of players were shipped out.  Perhaps Nonis could acquire players that would fit better into Carlyle's system and at the same time acquire a #1 centre, 2 reliable defenseman and a back up to Bernier.

So you are saying that Carlyle's system (or lack thereof) was a major problem last year yet advocate trading two of the team's top young assets for players to fit the same problematic system?

What I am saying is that yes the problem was Carlyle's system (whatever that was).  Since Carlyle is returning, it offers Nonis and Carlyle the opportunity to ship out the pieces that did not fit into Carlyle's system, and if Nonis knows what that system is, the players he acquires may be able to play in that system. 

But yes, I do believe Carlyle's system is flawed so whoever comes to the Leafs via trade will have to play under that system so nothing will change, just the names on the back of the jerseys.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: L K on May 13, 2014, 09:49:12 AM
So Phaneuf for Spezza.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 13, 2014, 10:00:11 AM
How do you market Phaneuf in a trade discussion? It's a tough pitch to say he's going to provide leadership and defensive stability to a young team and he's not exactly a fan favorite so it's not like he's going to help you sell a lot of jerseys or anything. So then you're stuck trying to convince a rival GM that Dion's worth $7M a year to be part of his supporting cast but even then how happy is he going to be as a #3-4?

I hope I'm completely wrong as usual but I don't think Phaneuf's going anywhere for a long, long time.

They're not perfect comparables, but someone like Brian Campbell was dealt with a $7.1 million cap hit in 2011 when the cap was $64.3 million (had less years remaining, but was older too).  Next season the cap will be $69-70 million, and will keep rising.  There will probably always be some team who would be willing to take his deal, as he can still provide offensive production from the back-end.

But it's hard to say for sure until it happens or doesn't, of course.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Optimus Reimer on May 13, 2014, 10:19:11 AM
So Phaneuf for Spezza.

To be honest with you Phaneuf is a better defenseman than Spezza is forward.  Sure Spezza can score, but he is a turnover machine and his idea of back checking is to make sure the players on the ice do have backs.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: A Weekend at Bernier's on May 13, 2014, 10:58:41 AM
How do you market Phaneuf in a trade discussion? It's a tough pitch to say he's going to provide leadership and defensive stability to a young team and he's not exactly a fan favorite so it's not like he's going to help you sell a lot of jerseys or anything. So then you're stuck trying to convince a rival GM that Dion's worth $7M a year to be part of his supporting cast but even then how happy is he going to be as a #3-4?

I hope I'm completely wrong as usual but I don't think Phaneuf's going anywhere for a long, long time.

They're not perfect comparables, but someone like Brian Campbell was dealt with a $7.1 million cap hit in 2011 when the cap was $64.3 million (had less years remaining, but was older too).  Next season the cap will be $69-70 million, and will keep rising.  There will probably always be some team who would be willing to take his deal, as he can still provide offensive production from the back-end.

But it's hard to say for sure until it happens or doesn't, of course.

You're bang on, Potvin.  I've made this point before, but for crying out loud Scott Gomez netted the Rangers Ryan McDonagh and Chris Higgins in 2009.  Phaneuf is a very good NHL defenseman who does a lot of things well.  I think the Leafs will get a decent return for him if / when he's traded.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 13, 2014, 11:07:26 AM
How do you market Phaneuf in a trade discussion? It's a tough pitch to say he's going to provide leadership and defensive stability to a young team and he's not exactly a fan favorite so it's not like he's going to help you sell a lot of jerseys or anything. So then you're stuck trying to convince a rival GM that Dion's worth $7M a year to be part of his supporting cast but even then how happy is he going to be as a #3-4?

I hope I'm completely wrong as usual but I don't think Phaneuf's going anywhere for a long, long time.

They're not perfect comparables, but someone like Brian Campbell was dealt with a $7.1 million cap hit in 2011 when the cap was $64.3 million (had less years remaining, but was older too).  Next season the cap will be $69-70 million, and will keep rising.  There will probably always be some team who would be willing to take his deal, as he can still provide offensive production from the back-end.

But it's hard to say for sure until it happens or doesn't, of course.

You're nag on, Potvin.  I've made this point before, but for crying out loud Scott Gomez netted the Rangers Ryan McDonagh and Chris Higgins in 2009.  Phaneuf is a very good NHL defenseman who does a lot of things well.  I think the Leafs will get a decent return for him if / when he's traded.

And as Mirtle (and now Friedman on the radio) points out, by signing him the Leafs will get a better return than if they were to have dealt him as a pending UFA, or let him walk for nothing.  Maybe the cap space isn't nothing, but since I and others think he can be dealt it's probably better to obtain better value for him by going this route.

If that is what they are trying to do.

Also this is a good article that highlights the potential impact Carlyle and the assistants' coaching philosophy has had on Phaneuf's production: http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/03/28/the-decline-of-dion-phaneuf/

The heat maps are especially cool IMO.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Brian Glennie on May 13, 2014, 12:14:56 PM
How do you market Phaneuf in a trade discussion? It's a tough pitch to say he's going to provide leadership and defensive stability to a young team and he's not exactly a fan favorite so it's not like he's going to help you sell a lot of jerseys or anything. So then you're stuck trying to convince a rival GM that Dion's worth $7M a year to be part of his supporting cast but even then how happy is he going to be as a #3-4?

I hope I'm completely wrong as usual but I don't think Phaneuf's going anywhere for a long, long time.

They're not perfect comparables, but someone like Brian Campbell was dealt with a $7.1 million cap hit in 2011 when the cap was $64.3 million (had less years remaining, but was older too).  Next season the cap will be $69-70 million, and will keep rising.  There will probably always be some team who would be willing to take his deal, as he can still provide offensive production from the back-end.

But it's hard to say for sure until it happens or doesn't, of course.

Like you said, it's not a perfect comparison but at least Campbell had won a Cup with Chicago the year before he was traded whereas after ten years in the league, Dion's never played on a team that even made it to the 2nd round.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: mc on May 13, 2014, 12:16:35 PM
Calgary, Florida and San Jose. I see those as likely destinations.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: louisstamos on May 13, 2014, 12:23:12 PM
Calgary, Florida and San Jose. I see those as likely destinations.

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/49777912.jpg)
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 13, 2014, 12:28:50 PM
How do you market Phaneuf in a trade discussion? It's a tough pitch to say he's going to provide leadership and defensive stability to a young team and he's not exactly a fan favorite so it's not like he's going to help you sell a lot of jerseys or anything. So then you're stuck trying to convince a rival GM that Dion's worth $7M a year to be part of his supporting cast but even then how happy is he going to be as a #3-4?

I hope I'm completely wrong as usual but I don't think Phaneuf's going anywhere for a long, long time.

They're not perfect comparables, but someone like Brian Campbell was dealt with a $7.1 million cap hit in 2011 when the cap was $64.3 million (had less years remaining, but was older too).  Next season the cap will be $69-70 million, and will keep rising.  There will probably always be some team who would be willing to take his deal, as he can still provide offensive production from the back-end.

But it's hard to say for sure until it happens or doesn't, of course.

Like you said, it's not a perfect comparison but at least Campbell had won a Cup with Chicago the year before he was traded whereas after ten years in the league, Dion's never played on a team that even made it to the 2nd round.

Maybe it's what you meant, but it was the 09-10 season they won and the 2011 draft he was dealt at, so 2 seasons prior.  And he was basically their 4th defenseman when they won that Cup, nevermind the idea that it should make much difference whether you happen to be on a great team like he was.  Don't think he's the difference so the fact he was on the team shouldn't make much difference either.

I'm sure there are other examples, that's just the initial one that comes to mind.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 13, 2014, 12:29:54 PM
A pretty good Friedman interview re: Phaneuf....

https://soundcloud.com/mapleleafshotstove/elliotte-friedman-discusses-potential-suitors-for-dion-phaneuf

He mentions the most likely destinations being Calgary, Edmonton or Colorado.

I wonder how much more Nonis would need to sweeten the pot for an offer of Phaneuf for Statnsy?

What about Phaneuf to Edmonton. What could we possibly get back from that deal? I'd imagine it wouldnt be nearly enough to satisfy Leaf Nation.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 13, 2014, 12:45:43 PM
Well Stastny is a pending UFA so I'd hope you wouldn't give up that much for the right to negotiate with him.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on May 13, 2014, 01:04:58 PM
Well Stastny is a pending UFA so I'd hope you wouldn't give up that much for the right to negotiate with him.

If anything, because Stastny is a pending UFA, Colorado would have to add for the Leafs to make the deal. At the very least, it would have to be a sign and trade situation for the Leafs to even consider a straight up swap.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: L K on May 13, 2014, 01:07:59 PM
Well Stastny is a pending UFA so I'd hope you wouldn't give up that much for the right to negotiate with him.

If anything, because Stastny is a pending UFA, Colorado would have to add for the Leafs to make the deal. At the very least, it would have to be a sign and trade situation for the Leafs to even consider a straight up swap.
 

I really don't understand how the logic of negotiation rights is worth a 1st pairing defenseman, overpaid or not.  Stastny isn't going to sign in Toronto for less money because the Leafs gave up an asset.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: TML fan on May 13, 2014, 01:09:13 PM
Yeah if you want Stastny, go after him as a free agent. Honestly though, given recent history I wish the Leafs would stay out of the free agent pool.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: A Weekend at Bernier's on May 13, 2014, 01:13:25 PM

I wonder how much more Nonis would need to sweeten the pot for an offer of Phaneuf for Statnsy?


I wonder why you keep referring to this scenario?  The fact that Stastny is a pending UFA has been brought up many, many times.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on May 13, 2014, 01:17:12 PM
I really don't understand how the logic of negotiation rights is worth a 1st pairing defenseman, overpaid or not.  Stastny isn't going to sign in Toronto for less money because the Leafs gave up an asset.

Neither do I. In the past, negotiating rights for individual players went for 2nd or 3rd round picks. With the introduction of the interview period leading up to free agency, negotiating rights are less valuable now. The extra year teams can offer players that played with them opens up the possibility for sign and trade type moves, but, there's no way any team is going to give up a significant roster piece for the rights to negotiate with a player for an extra week or two. If the Avs want Phaneuf, the extra time to negotiate with Stastny is the cherry on top of the rest of their offer, not the centrepiece.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Sudafederov on May 13, 2014, 01:25:02 PM
If the Leafs are looking to deal with Colorado, the most likely target is Ryan O'Reilly.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Corn Flake on May 13, 2014, 01:25:06 PM
What about Phaneuf to Edmonton. What could we possibly get back from that deal? I'd imagine it wouldnt be nearly enough to satisfy Leaf Nation.

I think Edmonton would be tripping over themselves to get Phaneuf.  They are desperate for a top pairing d-man and with Dion locked up for 7 years, hometown kid, etc etc... he's worth his weight in gold to them.

I wouldn't want to speculate on what Edm would give up, but I think it would be fairly substantial.  I don't buy this "he's not worth much" stuff at all.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Corn Flake on May 13, 2014, 01:27:07 PM
If the Leafs are looking to deal with Colorado, the most likely target is Ryan O'Reilly.

Would love to get him, but I don't think they are going to move him. He was a pretty key cog in their wheel last year, plus Stastny is likely moving on so they would likely not want to lose two of their top 6. 

Now if Colorado signs Stastny, that could all change.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Boston Leaf on May 13, 2014, 01:35:31 PM
Phaneuf and our 1st to Edmonton for their 1st and 2nd round picks. We move up in the draft grab a 2nd back and the guy almost everyone would just like to give away to be out of the contract and because most seem to hate the guy is over and done with
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Sudafederov on May 13, 2014, 01:37:58 PM
If the Leafs are looking to deal with Colorado, the most likely target is Ryan O'Reilly.

Would love to get him, but I don't think they are going to move him. He was a pretty key cog in their wheel last year, plus Stastny is likely moving on so they would likely not want to lose two of their top 6. 

Now if Colorado signs Stastny, that could all change.

I'd like to get him too. I've read articles about how the Zamboni drivers have to kick him off the ice because he stays after practice so long. If you are going to install culture change, this is they type of player that helps to do just that.

It was reported in the rumour mill this year that the Avs had interest in Kulikov at one point, so potentially they are in the market for a defenceman. The Avs could definitely be a dance partner.

Still, maybe the Leafs brass liked what they saw with Kessel, Pavelski, and JVR at the Olympics. Dan Boyle is probably moving on, so SJ needs a defenceman too.

Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Corn Flake on May 13, 2014, 01:50:53 PM
If the Leafs are looking to deal with Colorado, the most likely target is Ryan O'Reilly.

Would love to get him, but I don't think they are going to move him. He was a pretty key cog in their wheel last year, plus Stastny is likely moving on so they would likely not want to lose two of their top 6. 

Now if Colorado signs Stastny, that could all change.

I'd like to get him too. I've read articles about how the Zamboni drivers have to kick him off the ice because he stays after practice so long. If you are going to install culture change, this is they type of player that helps to do just that.

It was reported in the rumour mill this year that the Avs had interest in Kulikov at one point, so potentially they are in the market for a defenceman. The Avs could definitely be a dance partner.

Still, maybe the Leafs brass liked what they saw with Kessel, Pavelski, and JVR at the Olympics. Dan Boyle is probably moving on, so SJ needs a defenceman too.

O'Rielly is absolutely the type of player who would be adored in this city.  He's a workhorse and ball of energy who is most certainly a potential future captain as well. I can't see them letting him go though but they do need to address their overall defense. 
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 13, 2014, 01:52:02 PM
If the Leafs are looking to deal with Colorado, the most likely target is Ryan O'Reilly.

Would love to get him, but I don't think they are going to move him. He was a pretty key cog in their wheel last year, plus Stastny is likely moving on so they would likely not want to lose two of their top 6. 

Now if Colorado signs Stastny, that could all change.

I'd like to get him too. I've read articles about how the Zamboni drivers have to kick him off the ice because he stays after practice so long. If you are going to install culture change, this is they type of player that helps to do just that.

It was reported in the rumour mill this year that the Avs had interest in Kulikov at one point, so potentially they are in the market for a defenceman. The Avs could definitely be a dance partner.

Still, maybe the Leafs brass liked what they saw with Kessel, Pavelski, and JVR at the Olympics. Dan Boyle is probably moving on, so SJ needs a defenceman too.

O'Rielly is absolutely the type of player who would be adored in this city.  He's a workhorse and ball of energy who is most certainly a potential future captain as well. I can't see them letting him go though but they do need to address their overall defense.

Only 2 PIM, not enough GRIT for Tronna.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 13, 2014, 02:13:33 PM

I think it's pretty telling that most people who are Phaneuf advocates aren't even entertaining the possibility that trading him could yield a really terrific return for the Leafs.

While I'm not an advocate for Phaneuf, the reason I think it won't yield a terrific return is because we'd be the quarter in this trade. As in 3 dimes for a quater.

Why are you assuming that's the case though? There will be other good players, of Phaneuf's calibre or better, who will be on the block. If people out there genuinely believe Phaneuf is as well regarded as they claim, his being available would lead to substantial interest from multiple teams. Why would the Leafs be getting bits and pieces for him if teams were bidding against each other for the services of an All-Star?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Corn Flake on May 13, 2014, 02:57:13 PM
I guarantee you there are GM's and coaches who look at Dion and think they can tweak his game and pair him with the right guy and make him flourish. 

Heck, maybe putting him back on the left side and pair him with a competent RH d-man does the trick.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Optimus Reimer on May 13, 2014, 02:58:32 PM

I wonder how much more Nonis would need to sweeten the pot for an offer of Phaneuf for Statnsy?


I wonder why you keep referring to this scenario?  The fact that Stastny is a pending UFA has been brought up many, many times.

But it is one of the few mistakes the Leafs have yet to make...I think.  Trading for a UFA only to see the player sign with another team without ever wearing a Leaf shirt and getting nothing else back in exchange.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Optimus Reimer on May 13, 2014, 03:03:46 PM
I guarantee you there are GM's and coaches who look at Dion and think they can tweak his game and pair him with the right guy and make him flourish. 

Heck, maybe putting him back on the left side and pair him with a competent RH d-man does the trick.

With a decent coach and under a well defined defensive system Phaneuf could have prospered here as a Leaf player.  That actually applies to every Leaf defenseman. 
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Corn Flake on May 13, 2014, 03:05:58 PM
I guarantee you there are GM's and coaches who look at Dion and think they can tweak his game and pair him with the right guy and make him flourish. 

Heck, maybe putting him back on the left side and pair him with a competent RH d-man does the trick.

With a decent coach and under a well defined defensive system Phaneuf could have prospered here as a Leaf player.  That actually applies to every Leaf defenseman.

Very true, but he also should be on a team where he is not the captain, or even in the leadership group it will benefit him.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on May 13, 2014, 03:11:04 PM
Very true, but he also should be on a team where he is not the captain, or even in the leadership group it will benefit him.

I get the impression that, regardless of whether or not he has a letter on his sweater, Phaneuf will always find himself as part of the leadership group. He just seems to have that kind of personality. Moving him down the chain would be good for him, but I don't think he'll ever be able to be completely removed from it.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Corn Flake on May 13, 2014, 03:14:03 PM
Very true, but he also should be on a team where he is not the captain, or even in the leadership group it will benefit him.

I get the impression that, regardless of whether or not he has a letter on his sweater, Phaneuf will always find himself as part of the leadership group. He just seems to have that kind of personality. Moving him down the chain would be good for him, but I don't think he'll ever be able to be completely removed from it.

Yeah you are probably right. But if you dropped him on a team like say the Sharks, they have such a well established veteran leadership group that I think it would keep him in check vs. what he did here which was walk in the dressing room on day 1 and basically took over.

edit: Now if you dropped him in on the Colorado roster, it might go a lot differently and potentially could be an issue.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 13, 2014, 03:19:12 PM
Well Stastny is a pending UFA so I'd hope you wouldn't give up that much for the right to negotiate with him.

If anything, because Stastny is a pending UFA, Colorado would have to add for the Leafs to make the deal. At the very least, it would have to be a sign and trade situation for the Leafs to even consider a straight up swap.

You think Colorado lets him walk?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 13, 2014, 03:38:26 PM
Very true, but he also should be on a team where he is not the captain, or even in the leadership group it will benefit him.

I get the impression that, regardless of whether or not he has a letter on his sweater, Phaneuf will always find himself as part of the leadership group. He just seems to have that kind of personality. Moving him down the chain would be good for him, but I don't think he'll ever be able to be completely removed from it.

I don't think that can be divorced from the fundamental question of what Phaneuf will be asked to do. If he's brought anywhere that he's expected to be one of the core guys who the team is built around then, yeah, there's no way he won't be one of the players looked to as a leader. If he's brought into an ideal situation where he's the #3 defenseman(or #2 defenseman but on the team's second pairing) then I don't think his personality is going to be that much of a consideration. If you dropped him onto Chicago tomorrow, guys like Patrick Sharp or Marian Hossa aren't going to sit around worrying about Dion Phaneuf.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on May 13, 2014, 04:05:59 PM
You think Colorado lets him walk?

I think they'll do everything in their power to try to sign him, but, if they can't, the right to negotiate with him for a few extra days or so does not have anywhere near the value you're placing on it.

EDIT: And, if they do re-sign him, it's highly unlikely that he'll be a player they trade this summer.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 13, 2014, 04:45:29 PM
You think Colorado lets him walk?

I think they'll do everything in their power to try to sign him, but, if they can't, the right to negotiate with him for a few extra days or so does not have anywhere near the value you're placing on it.

EDIT: And, if they do re-sign him, it's highly unlikely that he'll be a player they trade this summer.

I was placing the value on the signing not the negotiating rights, but I think it may be more of an equal value trade if they went after O'Reilly instead. I'd be pretty happy if Nonis could swing a deal with the Avs for either guy really.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on May 13, 2014, 04:52:51 PM
I was placing the value on the signing not the negotiating rights, but I think it may be more of an equal value trade if they went after O'Reilly instead. I'd be pretty happy if Nonis could swing a deal that brought him to the Leafs.

Even in a sign and trade scenario, I don't think Colorado would get as much as Phaneuf, never mind more. That type of trade is basically an admission by the team that they're either not going to re-sign the player or they're not able to re-sign the player. Their leverage is significantly reduced. It's hard to judge exactly what kind of return there would be in that scenario, since we've yet to see a true sign and trade in the NHL, but, it's not a situation where the team executing the sign and trade is likely to get full value for the player they're trading.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 13, 2014, 05:32:38 PM
I was placing the value on the signing not the negotiating rights, but I think it may be more of an equal value trade if they went after O'Reilly instead. I'd be pretty happy if Nonis could swing a deal that brought him to the Leafs.

Even in a sign and trade scenario, I don't think Colorado would get as much as Phaneuf, never mind more. That type of trade is basically an admission by the team that they're either not going to re-sign the player or they're not able to re-sign the player. Their leverage is significantly reduced. It's hard to judge exactly what kind of return there would be in that scenario, since we've yet to see a true sign and trade in the NHL, but, it's not a situation where the team executing the sign and trade is likely to get full value for the player they're trading.

Fair enough. I just hope they are able to land someone like a Statsny or O'Reilly this summer.

Like someone else mentioned in this thread, getting 2 dimes and a nickel for a quarter (Phaneuf) isn't my idea of a good return. And I think Nonis and Shanny need to get a 'good' return for Dion.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Bullfrog on May 13, 2014, 07:00:57 PM
I don't think that can be divorced from the fundamental question of what Phaneuf will be asked to do. If he's brought anywhere that he's expected to be one of the core guys who the team is built around then, yeah, there's no way he won't be one of the players looked to as a leader. If he's brought into an ideal situation where he's the #3 defenseman(or #2 defenseman but on the team's second pairing) then I don't think his personality is going to be that much of a consideration. If you dropped him onto Chicago tomorrow, guys like Patrick Sharp or Marian Hossa aren't going to sit around worrying about Dion Phaneuf.

The ideal situation is him as the no.3? He's a no.1 on many teams and a no.2 on some of the better teams. The ideal situation is to start using him more effectively on the power play while maintaining top line status.

I can buy a no.2 on the second line, but I really don't see that as being necessary.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 13, 2014, 07:09:10 PM
The ideal situation is him as the no.3? He's a no.1 on many teams and a no.2 on some of the better teams.

Even if that were true, and I think it's well established that you and I have very different opinions about how good Phaneuf is relatively, then it doesn't really dispute that on the teams with the best defenses in the league he would be a #3 or even #4 guy. So, again, ideally #3 is where you want him.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: princedpw on May 13, 2014, 07:38:40 PM
Reports from Kypreos suggest that Phaneuf is being shopped out West.

Perhaps this is the first step in the culture change, thoughts on potential trading partners and potential returns we'd be happy with?
It must be Christmas! I'd be happy with any partner that would take him off our hands quite honestly since it would open up lots of possibilities. I'm drooling at the thought....

Trading Phaneuf will definitely make the Leafs worse next year (are you aware of that?).  I doubt he'll be traded because the Leafs management are aware he is the best defenseman we have (he plays the most minutes).  And I just don't see the Leafs ever intentionally throwing away a year.

But as a return, I'd be happy with Edmonton's 1st and maybe a salary dump like Ference.

I do think that people fail to calculate the amount of time a tear-it-down rebuild takes.  Suppose you need 4 really good players to compete for a championship.  That's 4 years in a row of top draft picks (with none of those years being a bust).  Then you have to let those 4 players mature a number of years each.  If the last of the 4 takes 3 years to mature (unlikely for a defenseman, so you have to draft your star defenseman early, which, Edmonton, for example, didnt do, meaning they have to wait several more years for a guy like Nurse to be a force).  Anyway, we are at 4+3 = 7 years minimum for a normal burn-it-down rebuild.  We might be a little better than that because we already have Rielly and Gardiner, who have some chance at turning in to those top defencemen that one needs.

Anyway, when Burke said "I don't want to be a part of a 5-year rebuild" I don't think he was doing the math properly -- a burn-it-down-sell-all-good-players rebuild will often take longer than that.  The key is drafting and developing defencemen. That just takes a long, long, long time.
It would depend on the return, therefore not definitive in any manner.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "definitely."  Phaneuf is one of the leafs most valuable players (in terms of minutes and situations he plays) and he is in his prime.  If the Leafs trade him, they will have a huge hole in their defense -- it doesn't seem likely to me that the return on the trade, be it forwards, goaltenders, futures, or cap space will be able to make up for the loss of Phaneuf (this year).
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 13, 2014, 08:15:21 PM
If the Leafs trade him, they will have a huge hole in their defense -- it doesn't seem likely to me that the return on the trade, be it forwards, goaltenders, futures, or cap space will be able to make up for the loss of Phaneuf (this year).

Why couldn't they also get a defenseman back in a deal?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 13, 2014, 09:26:53 PM
If the Leafs trade him, they will have a huge hole in their defense -- it doesn't seem likely to me that the return on the trade, be it forwards, goaltenders, futures, or cap space will be able to make up for the loss of Phaneuf (this year).

Why couldn't they also get a defenseman back in a deal?

Pretty sure he meant any player they would get in a trade couldn't make up for the loss at the 'D' position caused from Phaneufs departure, included another defensemen.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Mostar on May 13, 2014, 09:35:17 PM
Good defensman, terrible captain, and the Leafs need a captain.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 13, 2014, 09:38:39 PM
Pretty sure he meant any player they would get in a trade couldn't make up for the loss at the 'D' position caused from Phaneufs departure, included another defensemen.

That doesn't really square with saying that if he's traded the Leafs would have a "huge hole" on their defense. Even if you believe that you could only get someone who gave you 70% of what Phaneuf did in a trade that wouldn't be a huge loss, especially because it seems pretty likely that the Leafs young defensemen like Gardiner and Rielly are probably going to improve next year.

Again, if someone thought Phaneuf's departure would cause a "huge hole" that the Leafs couldn't address from within or via free agency then I'd think they'd also believe that he could be traded for pieces of significant value.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on May 14, 2014, 09:20:49 AM
Dear God,

Seeing as you're God, you already know what's in my mind before I do so it is redundant for me to have to frame this as a prayer, but anyhow I have a very simple request and I will never bother you again: change the "o" in this thread's title to "i."
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 14, 2014, 03:48:07 PM
Shanahan doing some media today.  From The Star's Kevin McGran:

Quote
@kevin_mcgran  · 

Will Leafs strip C off Phaneuf? "I hope not. It's not something I've contemplated in the time that I've been here." - SHANAHAN

Quote
@kevin_mcgran 

"I don't know if (stripping C) is a solution. I think it's a cop-out, to a certain degree an easy way out."

Quote
@kevin_mcgran

On Phaneuf and #Leafs collapse: "There are certain times when less is more. Really felt that he was trying to be all things at once." Shanny

Quote
@kevin_mcgran 

"I want to help enhance the player and leader that Dion is." SHANAHAN #Leafs

Quote
@kevin_mcgran 

"I've heard too many times in my life, talking about leadership, this team can't succeed with this leadership group. Until they do." 
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: hap_leaf on May 14, 2014, 03:55:33 PM
So square peg, round hole...just force it!!
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 14, 2014, 03:57:55 PM
So square peg, round hole...just force it!!

The way he describes it is more akin to a malleable or pliable square peg.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Bullfrog on May 14, 2014, 04:29:44 PM
Maybe he's just being photo-shopped?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Tigger on May 14, 2014, 04:45:33 PM
Maybe he's just being photo-shopped?

(http://www.holymoly.com/sites/default/files/imce/tumblr_tyrion-raises-glass.gif)
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on May 14, 2014, 05:54:14 PM
Shanahan doing some media today.  From The Star's Kevin McGran:

Quote
@kevin_mcgran  · 

Will Leafs strip C off Phaneuf? "I hope not. It's not something I've contemplated in the time that I've been here." - SHANAHAN

Quote
@kevin_mcgran 

"I don't know if (stripping C) is a solution. I think it's a cop-out, to a certain degree an easy way out."

Quote
@kevin_mcgran

On Phaneuf and #Leafs collapse: "There are certain times when less is more. Really felt that he was trying to be all things at once." Shanny

Quote
@kevin_mcgran 

"I want to help enhance the player and leader that Dion is." SHANAHAN #Leafs

Quote
@kevin_mcgran 

"I've heard too many times in my life, talking about leadership, this team can't succeed with this leadership group. Until they do." 

Maybe I should adjust my prayer to ask for Shanahan to get gone too.  ::)
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: mc on May 15, 2014, 10:03:30 AM
I think it's fair to say that Phaneuf is not going anywhere after hearing Shanahan's comments yesterday.

Quote
As a matter of fact, I hope to help Dion be a better captain. He’s got a lot of want and desire.

“[He’s] somebody that I can meet with, consult with, give some of my experience to. I would like to enhance his leadership qualities. And also surround him with more leaders.

“I think it’s an impossible task in any market, especially in Toronto, to put all that responsibility on any one guy.”
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 15, 2014, 10:09:02 AM
I think it's fair to say that Phaneuf is not going anywhere after hearing Shanahan's comments yesterday.

Quote
As a matter of fact, I hope to help Dion be a better captain. He’s got a lot of want and desire.

“[He’s] somebody that I can meet with, consult with, give some of my experience to. I would like to enhance his leadership qualities. And also surround him with more leaders.

“I think it’s an impossible task in any market, especially in Toronto, to put all that responsibility on any one guy.”

No, but more leadership on the blueline is coming to help out Phaneuf? I hope that doesn't come at the expense of the young skilled guys, or our future draft picks.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 15, 2014, 11:51:54 AM
No, but more leadership on the blueline is coming to help out Phaneuf? I hope that doesn't come at the expense of the young skilled guys, or our future draft picks.

Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on May 15, 2014, 11:55:33 AM
Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik

This times a billion.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: louisstamos on May 15, 2014, 11:55:37 AM
No, but more leadership on the blueline is coming to help out Phaneuf? I hope that doesn't come at the expense of the young skilled guys, or our future draft picks.

Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik Please don't sign Brooks Orpik

I'm with you.  Niskanen?  Absolutely (although he'll probably cost a fortune).

Orpik?  No, thank you.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 15, 2014, 11:57:14 AM
You guys know that we're totally signing Brooks Orpik though, right?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on May 15, 2014, 12:04:34 PM
You guys know that we're totally signing Brooks Orpik though, right?

My head knows, but the rest of me hasn't accepted it as a foregone conclusion yet.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: L K on May 15, 2014, 12:40:12 PM
You guys know that we're totally signing Brooks Orpik though, right?

Why do you love to hurt me so?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 15, 2014, 01:46:09 PM
You guys know that we're totally signing Brooks Orpik though, right?

Why do you love to hurt me so?

Bolland wears the C next season with Orpik and McClement as the As.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: princedpw on May 15, 2014, 06:06:01 PM
Pretty sure he meant any player they would get in a trade couldn't make up for the loss at the 'D' position caused from Phaneufs departure, included another defensemen.

That doesn't really square with saying that if he's traded the Leafs would have a "huge hole" on their defense. Even if you believe that you could only get someone who gave you 70% of what Phaneuf did in a trade that wouldn't be a huge loss, especially because it seems pretty likely that the Leafs young defensemen like Gardiner and Rielly are probably going to improve next year.

Again, if someone thought Phaneuf's departure would cause a "huge hole" that the Leafs couldn't address from within or via free agency then I'd think they'd also believe that he could be traded for pieces of significant value.

Let me preface this comment by saying I really don't think the Leafs are going to trade Phaneuf.  I just made an offhand comment that I didn't expect to be taken too seriously ...

But supposing they did trade him, I do think Phaneuf should have significant value.  The cap is going to go up a fair amount so there are going to be quite a number of teams who will be thinking about how to use that extra cap space they now have.  At the same time, there aren't that many great free agent defensemen (or great free agents of any kind) on the market.  So supply and demand suggests that a guy like Phaneuf, even with his salary, would have some suitors (especially if we can facilitate the trade by taking back some salary). 

It would be unusual to see a trade of a quite good 28-year-old player at position X for an even better player at position X in their prime or younger.  In other words, I'm all for the Phaneuf-for-Doughty trade, but it doesn't seem likely IMHO.

I'm also all for the Phaneuf-for-Crosby (or insert some other not-Crosby 1st line center that might make a difference to our team) trade too, but I don't think that will happen either.  Teams just don't trade those top-line guys very often. 

As suggested, we could get back a 70%-as-good-defenseman plus some other mediocre players or just a whole bunch of mediocre players or mediocre players and mediocre picks.  I think such a trade would be silly.  We can re-sign or own mediocre players (Kulemin, Bolland, etc) or grab a couple through free agency or via other trades. 

May be I'm just not that imaginative but the most beneficial and realistic trades I can see are those where the "good" stuff we get back for Phaneuf are younger parts that we hope will be good later and take some time to mature.  That's why I'd speculate a Phaneuf trade won't make us better next year. 
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 15, 2014, 06:33:43 PM
As suggested, we could get back a 70%-as-good-defenseman plus some other mediocre players or just a whole bunch of mediocre players or mediocre players and mediocre picks.  I think such a trade would be silly.  We can re-sign or own mediocre players (Kulemin, Bolland, etc) or grab a couple through free agency or via other trades. 

May be I'm just not that imaginative but the most beneficial and realistic trades I can see are those where the "good" stuff we get back for Phaneuf are younger parts that we hope will be good later and take some time to mature.  That's why I'd speculate a Phaneuf trade won't make us better next year.

I think you're kind of mashing up two separate points here. The first being Phaneuf's relative value around the league and the second being Phaneuf's value to the Leafs specifically.

The "70% as good" defenseman I used as a hypothetical wasn't an example of something the Leafs should look for in a trade but rather an example of how you could add someone who isn't as good as Phaneuf and the end result wouldn't be "a huge hole" on defense but rather a small hole that could be filled by the natural improvement of players already on the roster.

I didn't really respond much to the idea that trading Phaneuf would likely make the team worse next year because I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing but, again, I think this is where I see a discrepancy between what people claim Phaneuf's value to be and what they think it might be in a trade.

Imagine, if you will, the Penguins were interested in trading Evgeni Malkin. The fundamental nature of how good Malkin is means that, almost certainly, they won't be getting someone as good in return. How a trade of Evgeni Malkin would make the Penguins better, therefore, is by the combination of players they might receive. If San Jose offered Couture and Vlasic, for instance, neither player is as good as Malkin but neither player is "mediocre" or the sort easily attainable through free agency.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 15, 2014, 07:08:36 PM
You guys know that we're totally signing Brooks Orpik though, right?

Would you be happier with Boyle?

#SJSharks GM Doug Wilson says that defenseman Dan Boyle will not be returning to the team this upcoming season.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 15, 2014, 07:25:40 PM
Would you be happier with Boyle?

#SJSharks GM Doug Wilson says that defenseman Dan Boyle will not be returning to the team this upcoming season.

Than Orpik? Of course. Boyle won't be looking for a long-term contract because of his age. Still, he wouldn't really be near the top of my list and I've said this before but I'm 98% certain he signs with the Rangers this summer.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 15, 2014, 08:16:06 PM
Would you be happier with Boyle?

#SJSharks GM Doug Wilson says that defenseman Dan Boyle will not be returning to the team this upcoming season.

Than Orpik? Of course. Boyle won't be looking for a long-term contract because of his age. Still, he wouldn't really be near the top of my list and I've said this before but I'm 98% certain he signs with the Rangers this summer.

He may be a good pick up for the Leafs for a few seasons while guys like Percy, Finn etc. gain the needed experience on the Marlies. I wonder if Shanonis goes after him.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Rebel_1812 on May 15, 2014, 09:28:25 PM
Would you be happier with Boyle?

#SJSharks GM Doug Wilson says that defenseman Dan Boyle will not be returning to the team this upcoming season.

Than Orpik? Of course. Boyle won't be looking for a long-term contract because of his age. Still, he wouldn't really be near the top of my list and I've said this before but I'm 98% certain he signs with the Rangers this summer.

You'd rather have a dinosaur on the team?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 15, 2014, 10:11:16 PM
You'd rather have a dinosaur on the team?

You realize that dinosaur led one of the best teams in the league this season in ice-time, right?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: princedpw on May 15, 2014, 10:13:07 PM
Imagine, if you will, the Penguins were interested in trading Evgeni Malkin. The fundamental nature of how good Malkin is means that, almost certainly, they won't be getting someone as good in return. How a trade of Evgeni Malkin would make the Penguins better, therefore, is by the combination of players they might receive. If San Jose offered Couture and Vlasic, for instance, neither player is as good as Malkin but neither player is "mediocre" or the sort easily attainable through free agency.

I totally understand how that works, I just don't think that is the likely outcome of a Phaneuf trade for a variety of reasons (and I don't think a Phaneuf trade is likely in the first place).  And if Phaneuf was traded, I'd hope it was for futures that would see the Leafs worse next year but better some time further in the future ...
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: L K on May 15, 2014, 10:22:23 PM
You guys know that we're totally signing Brooks Orpik though, right?

Why do you love to hurt me so?

Bolland wears the C next season with Orpik and McClement as the As.

Thanks, I just checked myself onto the liver transplant list in advance of all the drinking I am doing.  Seriously I feel like we are going to see a lot of bad decisions this offseason.  It would be reasonable to wait and see what happens but I'm not banking on that happening.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Nik the Trik on May 15, 2014, 10:44:26 PM
I totally understand how that works, I just don't think that is the likely outcome of a Phaneuf trade for a variety of reasons (and I don't think a Phaneuf trade is likely in the first place).  And if Phaneuf was traded, I'd hope it was for futures that would see the Leafs worse next year but better some time further in the future ...

I don't necessrily think the Leafs are likely to trade Phaneuf either but I wasn't really commenting on that. I was just responding to the assertion that trading him would necessarily leave a huge hole in the team's defense along with the seeming incongruity between the relatively high regard expressed for his contributions to the team and the relative low regard for what he might fetch in a trade.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: jdh1 on May 15, 2014, 11:21:29 PM
I totally understand how that works, I just don't think that is the likely outcome of a Phaneuf trade for a variety of reasons (and I don't think a Phaneuf trade is likely in the first place).  And if Phaneuf was traded, I'd hope it was for futures that would see the Leafs worse next year but better some time further in the future ...

I don't necessrily think the Leafs are likely to trade Phaneuf either but I wasn't really commenting on that. I was just responding to the assertion that trading him would necessarily leave a huge hole in the team's defense along with the seeming incongruity between the relatively high regard expressed for his contributions to the team and the relative low regard for what he might fetch in a trade.
He will be traded,it's just a matter of time.There's enough interest out west that I doubt he'll ever play another game as a Leaf.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Dappleganger on May 16, 2014, 12:23:37 AM
He will be traded,it's just a matter of time.There's enough interest out west that I doubt he'll ever play another game as a Leaf.

You'd have to think Edmonton would jump at the chance to acquire his services.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 16, 2014, 08:22:55 AM
I totally understand how that works, I just don't think that is the likely outcome of a Phaneuf trade for a variety of reasons (and I don't think a Phaneuf trade is likely in the first place).  And if Phaneuf was traded, I'd hope it was for futures that would see the Leafs worse next year but better some time further in the future ...

I don't necessrily think the Leafs are likely to trade Phaneuf either but I wasn't really commenting on that. I was just responding to the assertion that trading him would necessarily leave a huge hole in the team's defense along with the seeming incongruity between the relatively high regard expressed for his contributions to the team and the relative low regard for what he might fetch in a trade.
He will be traded,it's just a matter of time.There's enough interest out west that I doubt he'll ever play another game as a Leaf.

It is a little confusing that just last week nearly every credible source was reporting the Leafs were shopping Phaneuf. Now, this week Shanahan comes out and says not only will he stay, but he plans on helping him adjust better to the role of captain moving forward. What are we supposed to believe here?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on May 16, 2014, 10:28:04 AM
It is a little confusing that just last week nearly every credible source was reporting the Leafs were shopping Phaneuf. Now, this week Shanahan comes out and says not only will he stay, but he plans on helping him adjust better to the role of captain moving forward. What are we supposed to believe here?

That, as usual, the truth falls somewhere in the middle.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on May 16, 2014, 10:29:38 AM
I totally understand how that works, I just don't think that is the likely outcome of a Phaneuf trade for a variety of reasons (and I don't think a Phaneuf trade is likely in the first place).  And if Phaneuf was traded, I'd hope it was for futures that would see the Leafs worse next year but better some time further in the future ...

I don't necessrily think the Leafs are likely to trade Phaneuf either but I wasn't really commenting on that. I was just responding to the assertion that trading him would necessarily leave a huge hole in the team's defense along with the seeming incongruity between the relatively high regard expressed for his contributions to the team and the relative low regard for what he might fetch in a trade.
He will be traded,it's just a matter of time.There's enough interest out west that I doubt he'll ever play another game as a Leaf.

It is a little confusing that just last week nearly every credible source was reporting the Leafs were shopping Phaneuf.

Wasn't it just Kypreos?  Dreger denied they were shopping him.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: jdh1 on May 16, 2014, 11:36:02 AM
I totally understand how that works, I just don't think that is the likely outcome of a Phaneuf trade for a variety of reasons (and I don't think a Phaneuf trade is likely in the first place).  And if Phaneuf was traded, I'd hope it was for futures that would see the Leafs worse next year but better some time further in the future ...

I don't necessrily think the Leafs are likely to trade Phaneuf either but I wasn't really commenting on that. I was just responding to the assertion that trading him would necessarily leave a huge hole in the team's defense along with the seeming incongruity between the relatively high regard expressed for his contributions to the team and the relative low regard for what he might fetch in a trade.
He will be traded,it's just a matter of time.There's enough interest out west that I doubt he'll ever play another game as a Leaf.

It is a little confusing that just last week nearly every credible source was reporting the Leafs were shopping Phaneuf. Now, this week Shanahan comes out and says not only will he stay, but he plans on helping him adjust better to the role of captain moving forward. What are we supposed to believe here?
Shanahan can't admit he's being shopped,because there would be constant inquiry by the media,as well Dion would be on edge over the news.

He is got to say that we are going to work with him,try to work it out.That's the right thing to say.He's got to get as much value for him as possible.
Because there is a chance that the offers are poor and they are forced to keep him...Remember how Gillis fared with the Luongo deal.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Rebel_1812 on May 17, 2014, 01:03:44 PM
You'd rather have a dinosaur on the team?

You realize that dinosaur led one of the best teams in the league this season in ice-time, right?

And lead that team to another playoff disappointment. I don't like the idea of trusting a fossil to turn the team around.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on May 17, 2014, 01:53:58 PM
You'd rather have a dinosaur on the team?

You realize that dinosaur led one of the best teams in the league this season in ice-time, right?

And lead that team to another playoff disappointment. I don't like the idea of trusting a fossil to turn the team around.

Well. If you can get a younger, more defensive minded veteran with leadership abilities without giving up any important assets, than yeah, you acquire that player instead. Otherwise, it looks as though 'Shanonis' will do what they have to in acquiring some 'help' for Dion, in the form of a veteran defensemen, who can ease the load of wearing the 'C' and playing the monster minutes. You would have to think Boyle certainly fits all those requirements, and because of his age, would be much cheaper than a younger such player.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Britishbulldog on May 17, 2014, 11:41:55 PM
Watching the last 2 rounds of playoffs I can see where Phaneuf's toughness is an asset but I think that his lack of skating mobility is too big of an issue which is the main 'skill set' reason I would like to see him traded.

The speed and skating needed is what Gardiner and Rielly have in spades and Phaneuf and Franson don't. 
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: jdh1 on June 30, 2014, 07:48:49 PM
Is today the final day when Phanuef can be traded to any team? without his consent.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: azzurri63 on June 30, 2014, 07:51:40 PM
Is today the final day when Phanuef can be traded to any team? without his consent.

Let's hope so.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: RedLeaf on June 30, 2014, 08:05:26 PM
Is today the final day when Phanuef can be traded to any team? without his consent.

Yeah. Don't look like that is happening.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: jdh1 on June 30, 2014, 08:29:35 PM
Is today the final day when Phanuef can be traded to any team? without his consent.

Yeah. Don't look like that is happening.
Thanks
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on July 01, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
Is today the final day when Phanuef can be traded to any team? without his consent.

Under the current CBA, his NTC kicked in as soon as he signed his extension, so, there hasn't been a period where Phaneuf could be traded without consent for months.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Michael on July 02, 2014, 06:49:20 PM
I admit to not having time to follow things too closely, but what is this about?


Eklund - If the Isles can pull off the Phaneuf deal they can have three of the key components of that 09-10 Leafs team. #Goodtimes
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on July 02, 2014, 06:50:29 PM
Really?
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on July 02, 2014, 06:53:28 PM
The 09/10 Leafs? The one that finished 29th overall? Woo hoo.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Michael on July 02, 2014, 06:56:22 PM
Ok, so this isn't something that is out there and known to all except me? There is no Phaneuf to Isles thing. Got it. Eklund made me look!  :o
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on July 02, 2014, 06:59:02 PM
It's just Eklund.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: bustaheims on July 02, 2014, 07:04:35 PM
Ok, so this isn't something that is out there and known to all except me? There is no Phaneuf to Isles thing. Got it. Eklund made me look!  :o

Really just Eklund taking the rumours of Phaneuf begin available and pairing him with a team with cap space that needs improvements on the backend. It's not impossible that it happens, but, it's unlikely.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Highlander on July 03, 2014, 10:59:59 AM
Lets trade him for Grabo and Kulemon
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on July 03, 2014, 03:57:49 PM
Lets trade him for Grabo and Kulemon

I'd settle for Dal Colle, Ho Sang and a good shot at McDavid or Eichel  8)
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on July 03, 2014, 03:58:45 PM
No to Eichel.  Too close to Reichel.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: L K on July 03, 2014, 07:08:15 PM
No to Eichel.  Too close to Reichel.

>:( I liked Reichel
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Potvin29 on July 03, 2014, 07:13:44 PM
No to Eichel.  Too close to Reichel.

>:( I liked Reichel

Then I've got a slapshot from the slot on a penalty shot in the playoffs I'd like to sell you.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Britishbulldog on July 03, 2014, 09:02:50 PM
Let's see Phaneuf traded to Montreal for PK Subban and give Subban the $56 MIL over the next 8 years.

[edit]

Montreal needs a captain....
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: iwas11in67 on February 10, 2015, 01:12:47 PM
Heard on the radio this morning that 3 teams, LA, Dallas and Anaheim were "interested" in Phaneuf.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Crucialness Key on February 10, 2015, 02:18:19 PM
Heard on the radio this morning that 3 teams, LA, Dallas and Anaheim were "interested" in Phaneuf.

BIDDING WAAAAAAAR
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Bill_Berg on February 10, 2015, 02:27:31 PM
Heard on the radio this morning that 3 teams, LA, Dallas and Anaheim were "interested" in Phaneuf.

BIDDING WAAAAAAAR

Possibly, but likely nothing compared to the bidding war for Chris Neil.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Zee on February 10, 2015, 04:52:41 PM
O Captain my Captain. It's been real, start the rebuild.
Title: Re: Phaneuf being shopped
Post by: Highlander on February 13, 2015, 11:14:18 AM
I can't wait for the first big trade to happen, lets change the name of David Bowies song
"Lets Dance" to "Let's Tank"