Author Topic: The Official Movie Thread  (Read 88290 times)

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Online herman

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1065 on: November 15, 2017, 01:20:38 PM »
Maybe we remember the books differently but it seems to me like any Justice League villain from the books would, by definition, be powerful enough to give the collected heroes enough trouble. It's not like the comics were the Justice League wailing on a guy for a page before getting bagels.

What I remember from DC comics is that there aren't that many compelling villains at the JL level that take place on Earth, other than a Darkseid invasion or maybe Brainiac.

The one super interesting JL story I can recall is the Tower of Babel arc, made into an animated film: Justice League: Doom. Their animation wing is waaaaay better at story telling.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1066 on: November 15, 2017, 01:34:19 PM »
What I remember from DC comics is that there aren't that many compelling villains at the JL level that take place on Earth, other than a Darkseid invasion or maybe Brainiac.

The one super interesting JL story I can recall is the Tower of Babel arc, made into an animated film: Justice League: Doom. Their animation wing is waaaaay better at story telling.

Yeah, I was thinking Brainiac was the obvious go-to there. I mean they've done almost 10 Superman movies and he hasn't shown up so you should use him eventually.

But I think the key word you use there is "compelling". DC is working with a lot less good source material than Marvel is.
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Online louisstamos

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1067 on: November 15, 2017, 01:49:06 PM »
What I remember from DC comics is that there aren't that many compelling villains at the JL level that take place on Earth, other than a Darkseid invasion or maybe Brainiac.

The one super interesting JL story I can recall is the Tower of Babel arc, made into an animated film: Justice League: Doom. Their animation wing is waaaaay better at story telling.

Yeah, I was thinking Brainiac was the obvious go-to there. I mean they've done almost 10 Superman movies and he hasn't shown up so you should use him eventually.

But I think the key word you use there is "compelling". DC is working with a lot less good source material than Marvel is.

I could be wrong, since it's been a while, but Brianiac was the principal villain for a season on Smallville, wasn't he?

How accurate the show was to the comics, though, is a completely other story.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1068 on: November 15, 2017, 02:09:56 PM »
I could be wrong, since it's been a while, but Brianiac was the principal villain for a season on Smallville, wasn't he?

How accurate the show was to the comics, though, is a completely other story.

You could be right. I haven't watched any of that show.
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Online herman

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1069 on: November 15, 2017, 02:16:35 PM »
Yeah, I was thinking Brainiac was the obvious go-to there. I mean they've done almost 10 Superman movies and he hasn't shown up so you should use him eventually.

But I think the key word you use there is "compelling". DC is working with a lot less good source material than Marvel is.

Name recognition-wise, that's the right level for Brainiac. Story-wise, I'm not sure how this ties the other team members together. At least with Steppenwolf, there's the implication of Darkseid coming, the Motherboxes that he is searching for are integral to Cyborg's existence and contributions to the team. From the trailers, I can see them trying to tie threads to each JL member (the Amazons have history with Steppenwolf's first invasion, one of the boxes is hiding in Atlantis, Batman uh... had a dream... about the Flash?) to make this a more meaningful fight, but at the end of the day, he's a super-powerful middleman nobody.

I could be wrong, since it's been a while, but Brianiac was the principal villain for a season on Smallville, wasn't he?

He was played by James Marsters, who is best known as Spike on Buffy, and was a much more complex villain/anti-hero there than on Smallville.

Supergirl did a Brainiac episode last season, played by the Laura Vandervoort, who played Supergirl on Smallville.

I feel like most DC properties really spend most of their efforts on making call backs and references to esoteric DC universe lore.

Speaking of Smallville, did y'all hear about Allison Mack?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 02:19:23 PM by herman »

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1070 on: November 15, 2017, 02:27:48 PM »
Name recognition-wise, that's the right level for Brainiac. Story-wise, I'm not sure how this ties the other team members together. At least with Steppenwolf, there's the implication of Darkseid coming, the Motherboxes that he is searching for are integral to Cyborg's existence and contributions to the team. From the trailers, I can see them trying to tie threads to each JL member (the Amazons have history with Steppenwolf's first invasion, one of the boxes is hiding in Atlantis, Batman uh... had a dream... about the Flash?) to make this a more meaningful fight, but at the end of the day, he's a super-powerful middleman nobody.

See, I feel like that's the sort of worrying about the garnish, figuring out the steak later sort of thinking that's really bogging down these movies. Brainiac is an Alien. He's attacking the Earth. Batman rounds up superdudes and dudettes to punch him in the face. I don't remember spending too much time in the Avengers worrying about The Hulk's personal investment in beating up Loki.

(Which sort of brings to mind X-Men: Apocalypse, which I watched 15 minutes of a few nights ago. They worried about things like Apocalypse looking like he does in the books and Jean Grey being American and worry less about Oscar Isaac looking ridiculous for the whole movie or the fact that Sophie Turner can't do the accent.)

Loki doesn't naturally set up Thanos or Ultron either. In those cases they worried about making a fun movie first, allegiance to comic stuff later.
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Online louisstamos

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1071 on: November 15, 2017, 02:48:05 PM »
Speaking of Smallville, did y'all hear about Allison Mack?

I didn't, so I did a quick Google search, and....wow.  Wow.

Offline Significantly Insignificant

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1072 on: November 15, 2017, 02:53:35 PM »
DCEU doesn't know what each of their movies is for, other than, hey this moment in the comics would look cool on screen, so let's do it.

I agree and I think this is their biggest problem.  BvS was a perfect example of it.  They could have done two movies that would have had a chance to be way better if they had chosen to do one storyline or the other.  Now I don't think they could have done the Doomsday story line at this point, because I think you need the audience to have a feel for how important Superman is in order to have a sense of loss.  So you build that up over a series of movies, and then crank out that one near the end.  That to me would make for compelling stuff.  And as we have talked before, definitely the Injustice story line at some point, which appears to be what they are trying to setup right now.

X-Men suffered from it as well, what with X-Men 3 being a hodge-podge of story lines, none of them coming across well.  Sometimes these studios need to take a less is more approach.   
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be. - Khalil Gibran

Online herman

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1073 on: November 15, 2017, 04:08:21 PM »
See, I feel like that's the sort of worrying about the garnish, figuring out the steak later sort of thinking that's really bogging down these movies. Brainiac is an Alien. He's attacking the Earth. Batman rounds up superdudes and dudettes to punch him in the face. I don't remember spending too much time in the Avengers worrying about The Hulk's personal investment in beating up Loki.

(Which sort of brings to mind X-Men: Apocalypse, which I watched 15 minutes of a few nights ago. They worried about things like Apocalypse looking like he does in the books and Jean Grey being American and worry less about Oscar Isaac looking ridiculous for the whole movie or the fact that Sophie Turner can't do the accent.)

Loki doesn't naturally set up Thanos or Ultron either. In those cases they worried about making a fun movie first, allegiance to comic stuff later.

What I liked about The Avengers was that every character had a reason for being there, save for Hawkeye, who was immediately 'turned' to kind of get him out of the way. The Hulk wasn't personally invested in the threat of Loki, per se, but Bruce Banner's gamma radiation expertise was used to locate the Tesseract.

What I want them to focus on is not necessarily allegiance to the comic storylines, but on the characterization of the players involved. An afterthought of a villain has no stakes and no personal connection to the ones who are trying to stop them. The DCEU films largely run on reverse engineering visual comic book moments, instead of generating organic conflict. I think lower-tier villains can work as long as the effort to shape them into multi-dimensional characters is there.

Sometimes these studios need to take a less is more approach.   

This is why Deadpool and Logan were hits. It's not the R-rated fluff, but the tight story and character development that makes it memorable.

Offline Significantly Insignificant

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1074 on: November 15, 2017, 04:16:03 PM »
This is why Deadpool and Logan were hits. It's not the R-rated fluff, but the tight story and character development that makes it memorable.

Yeah, I really liked what they did in Logan.  I liked what they did in the movie a whole lot better than what they did in the comic in fact.  It was even worse when they reversed it and went the Old Man Logan route.  I think this is a problem that comics have in general.  They don't know how to move on from characters.  They need to lock Kirkman, Gimple and Martin in a room and have them revamp some of the titles for the other comic vendors, with no coming back from it.  None of this resetting the universe stuff.   
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be. - Khalil Gibran

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1075 on: November 15, 2017, 05:46:43 PM »
What I liked about The Avengers was that every character had a reason for being there, save for Hawkeye, who was immediately 'turned' to kind of get him out of the way. The Hulk wasn't personally invested in the threat of Loki, per se, but Bruce Banner's gamma radiation expertise was used to locate the Tesseract.

But there's no depth there. You're talking about a line or two of expository sci-fi babble that's clearly a contrivance for getting him involved. Doing that with any villain and or hero is elementary stuff. Steppenwolf is after some powerful macguffins? Have Brainiac be after those same macguffins instead. Or say his collecting machine is polluting the oceans or whatever.

What I want them to focus on is not necessarily allegiance to the comic storylines, but on the characterization of the players involved. An afterthought of a villain has no stakes and no personal connection to the ones who are trying to stop them. The DCEU films largely run on reverse engineering visual comic book moments, instead of generating organic conflict. I think lower-tier villains can work as long as the effort to shape them into multi-dimensional characters is there.

I don't know. I think about the Nicholson vs. Ledger Jokers and think that, by far, the character worked better without retconning him to have killed Batman's parents but instead simply being an embodiment of random criminality. In fact, they almost riffed on the notion. Making a joke of the idea that he has some tragic backstory that explains him. Batman didn't need a personal beef to want to stop him.

I think one of the reasons Marvel's movies have been so successful of late is that we're now comfortable enough with the characters that they don't need to spoonfeed us personal backstories and origins. That streamlines things like Civil War but it really streamlines something like the most recent Spider-Man where they figured out we kind of know who Spider-Man is so we don't need to see him learning all of his lessons. He could pretty much just get to swinging around on webs.
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Online herman

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1076 on: November 16, 2017, 09:29:22 AM »
But there's no depth there. You're talking about a line or two of expository sci-fi babble that's clearly a contrivance for getting him involved. Doing that with any villain and or hero is elementary stuff.

I agree a simple line or two would have been a contrivance, but in the case of Bruce Banner's presence in the Avengers, they organically established the rules of his dissociative identity disorder where every transformation became launch points for character-developing set-pieces.

I don't know. I think about the Nicholson vs. Ledger Jokers and think that, by far, the character worked better without retconning him to have killed Batman's parents but instead simply being an embodiment of random criminality. In fact, they almost riffed on the notion. Making a joke of the idea that he has some tragic backstory that explains him. Batman didn't need a personal beef to want to stop him.

I think one of the reasons Marvel's movies have been so successful of late is that we're now comfortable enough with the characters that they don't need to spoonfeed us personal backstories and origins. That streamlines things like Civil War but it really streamlines something like the most recent Spider-Man where they figured out we kind of know who Spider-Man is so we don't need to see him learning all of his lessons. He could pretty much just get to swinging around on webs.

Yeah, Marvel has definitely reached that maturity; I credit the first phase of movies with the smaller scope stories of characters learning to become heroes against their archnemeses (Stane, Red Skull, Loki) and coming together to form the basis of a team.

The DCEU doesn't really have that story maturity (technically they do, but refuse to use it). There were many aspects of Man of Steel that I really liked, and I also liked how BvS riffed on those themes and plot points. They're unfortunately buried and not fully explored under explosions and slow-mos. Nolan's Batmans anchored the character first in a personal battle (Ra's, who taught him to harness his trauma and darkness) before moving to an ideological one (Joker, Dent duality questions). I don't know what the heck Bane was supposed to represent and it was a mess.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1077 on: November 16, 2017, 10:30:44 AM »
I agree a simple line or two would have been a contrivance, but in the case of Bruce Banner's presence in the Avengers, they organically established the rules of his dissociative identity disorder where every transformation became launch points for character-developing set-pieces.

Right. But what you just said about his reason to be involved was one or two lines about how the macguffin they were chasing just happened to emit the radiation he's an expert in. Loki's cosmically powered space cube emitting Gamma radiation isn't organic in any sense of the word.
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Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1078 on: November 16, 2017, 10:46:49 AM »

In slightly less contentious movie news, Rotten Tomatoes has announced they won't be releasing the Justice League score until the day before the film:

http://www.slashfilm.com/justice-league-rotten-tomatoes-score/

I've never heard of this before. I know it's a big thing in Hollywood these days to blame Rotten Tomatoes' scores for being too influential but this seems like overkill even if it isn't unduly influenced by Warner Brothers having a stake in the site.

So as planned, RT revealed Justice Leagues score at 12:01am today on their new Facebook show.... 43%!

Problem is, we're almost 12 hours past that and their actual website still doesn't have the score posted or a single review linked either.

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1079 on: November 17, 2017, 04:48:58 PM »
Seems like the criticisms of the film are things you could pick up on from the trailers:

- Bad CGI
- Dark brooding tone that creates a bit of a lifeless effect
- Bad script
- Weak plot/villain

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Re: The Official Movie Thread
« Reply #1079 on: November 17, 2017, 04:48:58 PM »